Is it worth wrecking your social life, marriage, relationship etc etc??

LordMiz · May 2005

Is it just me, or is it that no1 who doesnt play doesnt understand?? If my wife tells me it's "just a game" one more time....your gonna read about me in the papers......

I know it's just a game, but it's also an escape sometimes, or a place to go hang out and play with your friends, where all your worried about is if your group healer is doing his job. i'm so sick of her, my bro's, any1, tellin me how unimportant the games are, like when they want something your supposed to drop w/e your doin in game, even tho u have 7 others relyin on you cuz your the only tank in the group, and how bad it makes u look when u leave them hangin on a seconds notice.

i meet people that have their wives, g/f's etc playin with them, and it sux knowin my wife would never even in a million years think of playin any game.....

so whats my options, deal with the hassle 24/7, or start lookin for a fellow gamer chick and divorce this nightmare.......

Dyrtt · May 2005

lol, My wife is the same way. I've tried for years to get her to play games with me, all to no avail. The wierd thing is, if we go somewhere that has a ms pacman or galaga machine she will play that for hours. Fortunatly, she has accepted that I'm not going to get up at a moments notice while I'm playing unless the house is on fire or something. It's all about boundries, ground rules, and compromise; she doesn't come bother me while I'm playing a game, I don't bother her while shes cleaning house, cooking my dinner, or crappin' out babies. Everyone wins!

LordMiz · May 2005

lmao

Puoltry · May 2005

Well it looks as if you are attempting to put more importance on CoH than your real life.I once read an article on gaming addiction and a guy who missed out on his little girl growing up it was really quite sad.The only place she ever saw him for 3 or 4 years was an office chair.She actually thought that was ALL he did.

Let me ask you some questions:

1.Are you a homeowner?

The reason i ask this is apartment renters have more free time to play games.

2.If it is a beautiful sunny saturday and you have a choice of say playing CoH or going outside to do anything like read a book or just hangout wich would you choose?

3.If your wife comes in to ask you a question do you get really really irritated even though she isnt really a "nag"?

4.How many hours a day do you play?More than 5?More than 2?

If you play more than 5 hours a day then just quit cold turkey.I cant play more than 1.5 to 2 hours a day if im lucky to play at all.I wouldnt want to play more than that actually i see it as a waste of time and it stops being fun for me.If being a "tank" in a game is more important than your wife.....well.....maybe you should have not gotten married.Doesnt sound like you want to be anyway.

LordMiz · May 2005

Originally posted by Puoltry

Well it looks as if you are attempting to put more importance on CoH than your real life.I once read an article on gaming addiction and a guy who missed out on his little girl growing up it was really quite sad.The only place she ever saw him for 3 or 4 years was an office chair.She actually thought that was ALL he did.
Let me ask you some questions:
1.Are you a homeowner?
The reason i ask this is apartment renters have more free time to play games.
2.If it is a beautiful sunny saturday and you have a choice of say playing CoH or going outside to do anything like read a book or just hangout wich would you choose?
3.If your wife comes in to ask you a question do you get really really irritated even though she isnt really a "nag"?
4.How many hours a day do you play?More than 5?More than 2?

If you play more than 5 hours a day then just quit cold turkey.I cant play more than 1.5 to 2 hours a day if im lucky to play at all.I wouldnt want to play more than that actually i see it as a waste of time and it stops being fun for me.If being a "tank" in a game is more important than your wife.....well.....maybe you should have not gotten married.Doesnt sound like you want to be anyway.

well dr. puoltry, where do i start, 1st of all, i dont get to play every day, as not only do i work 2 jobs, but i also have a 3 yr old, yes i am a home owner(condo), but i do not get what is the relivence of that. and as for you sounding like my wife, u also missed the point where i was not saying anything was more important, only how ignorant people who dont play can be, just because the game in question is of NO importance whatsoever to them, they expect you to react how they would want you to.

if you think about it, it's all perception anyways, its just another way to hang out with friends, if i was at a bar playing pool with my friends, she would never act that way...but if im online playing a game, "it's just a game" and i should drop it on her whim. it's a matter of respect, which people that dont play games look at them for something only a child should do, instead of respecting or giving a chance to something i obviously enjoy.

And as for whether i should have married her or not, well doc, ya gotta sail the ships you build.

Harelin · May 2005

Yeah, I definitely see your point there. I think most people do underestimate the level of involvement and companionship that you can gain with people and entire guilds over the internet - it isn't just the game itself. With voice chat, web cams, etc... it isn't such a flat experience as most non-gamers seem to think.

But, it would be remiss of me not to mention that I think you're totally taking the wrong direction with this attitude when you have people depending on you. You live in Las Vegas, how long do you think it will take for your wife to become unsatisfied or even unfaithful? The divorce rate is at, what, 50%?... you don't need this added pressure when it could be so easy to avoid, since you're consciously aware and considering things and not in denial like most people probably are. It seems simple now, but you're facing so much potential to underestimate the way your loved ones feel about this situation.

With that said, I totally agree with you on the other points about the way people perceive gaming as a whole, very well stated and pretty much how I've always looked at it... but fortunately I'm not in the position you are, and can afford to feel that way about online gaming. Just my 2 cents, take it as you will.

Puoltry · May 2005

Hey your the one who called your wife a nightmare not me.Your the one thats more worried about how a group of people you have never met perceive you because you go afk for a few seconds.

Sanctus_Mors · May 2005

I've always told my wife that if I get to the point that I'm ignoring her requests, ignoring her, and my personal hygene is going south; She can unplug my computer I have no say in the matter. Course, even though she doesn't play MMO, she likes to watch me play. I've counted a couple of times where she just sat on my lap and said "it's my time" and I log off She's yet to pull the plug on my computer

LordMiz · May 2005

Now even tho my 1str repsonse was to be bitter, cuz i feel like i was posting to my wife. BUT, since im talkin to people who "know where im comin from", i'll break it down even further for all the doc's out there. We have a steady social life, we make it a point to go out on a regulare basis, switchin it up each weekend for who wants to do what, but durin the week, we both do the 9-5 thing and at night is our own time, iw asnt postin this sayin "f" the world i wanna play games for my whole life an nutn else....i was sayin people need to be more considerate of things that they find unimportant, but others do, example, if u want me to take a ride to the store, and im in mid mission with 7 other people(or 2-3 others w/e), dont break my balls when i say "ok right after this mission ill log", and her response is "wtf it's just a game, whoe cares, lets go"...thats just rude and ignorant. and for some reason she is unable to understand why....does that make her a nag, in my eyes yes, do i gte mad when she tries to talk to me, of course not, online gamers need to understand also that behind every other comp is sum1's RL, and there will be need for frequent afk's sumtimes.

as for the otehr stuff, im very secure and not worried about "what if's", if wifey strays, thats on her.

ThePhoenix · May 2005

Well, I have 2 examples that may be of interest.

1) By bestest online gaming buddy was married, and I was not. His wife would play the online games now and again, which was really cool, we were into fps games at the time. We all were on Roger Wilco, or BattleCom, and had fun. She then faded away from the gaming online, and we moved along to mmorpg's. When we got online to play together, it was because he cleared some time to do that, and she went off to do stuff with her friends. They made their time to be together, and they made the time to do things with their friends apart. Of course when they had their baby, there were times when he'd have to take care of the kid while she was at work, so once in awhile we'd have to pause when the kid woke up, or needed changing etc. And there were a few times when he'd tell me his wife was pestering him, wouldn't leave him alone, what he meant was, she was teasing him, cuddling him, kissing etc, so he took his leave for 20-30 mins, and would be back once he 'took care of her'.... ::::28:: .

So his situation, he set aside time to play, and she generally did her own thing at the same time.

My personal situation: I was a hardcore gamer, wasn't married, played ALL the time. I had hooked up with a guy and we pretty much started the DJ'ing live while inside a mmorpg thing, so I was online ALWAYS when I got home from work. If I wasn't broadcasting, I'd be at one of the DJ's shows in game, or party, or leveling or playing the game. I pretty much lived in the game, and Real Life (tm) was just the pain in the ass that wouldn't let me be in the game all the time. Well, lo and behold, I met a woman, we got together, and I pretty much abandoned my online gaming for almost a year. This was partially due to the fact that she had a husband leave her to be with a girl he met online, and she had some issues with that, and also because the role playing we did was much nicer than any gaming role playing ::::29:: . We've been together almost 3 years now, and I have got back into gaming. She does not, and sees no sense in it, but she knows I get enjoyment from it. I do my gaming in the evenings, only after we've spent our time together, and she goes off to fall asleep to her Law & Order SVU tapes/dvds. So as long as I don't hook up with any chicks online, she knows it's not really such a bad thing. It's better than bein off at a bar or out in the streets. She trips out watchin me play sometimes, and was there when I checked out Sociolotron. She didn't seem to have a problem with it, even though thats basically a game that the object is to have sex with as many people as possible..... but I do have a problem with that. Even tho it's online and virtual, I still consider it cheating on her, so I only played that a few days and quit it.

So I guess it comes down to how much you respect and love each other, and play the game(s) in your spare time, and spend time with her so she doesn't feel neglected.

Other choice, get divorced and you can play all ya want. ::::07::

halldorr · May 2005

You haven't ditched her yet?

How about this one....current wife is a bit of a nag, always grumpy (yes even BEFORE CoH) and then you meet a great person in game...ah the complexity of life...

ThePhoenix · May 2005

Originally posted by LordMiz
Is it just me, or is it that no1 who doesnt play doesnt understand?? If my wife tells me it's "just a game" one more time....your gonna read about me in the papers......

Actually, you summed it all up in your very first sentance. NO ONE who doesn't play will understand. Thats ALWAYS going to be a fact of life. The only thing you can HOPE they will understand, is that you enjoy it, and it's your hobby. Believe me, all my co-workers, family and most friends would just shake their heads and say how they couldn't understand the appeal of gaming online. When I was into FPS games, I would just smile and tell em, "It's better for me to be online shooting at virtual people, than out in the street shooting actual people". That usually would get a strange look and a muttered agreement as they backed away....lol....

Now that I'm into the mmorpg's, the line has changed to, " It's better than spending nights in a bar or out in the street looking for trouble."

And in those instances where I have to get up and leave my group stranded or leave the game because the cat brought in another snake, or the wife is frisky, bottom line..... it IS just a game.... ::::05::

ThePhoenix · May 2005

Originally posted by shadowrunner
Originally posted by LordMiz
Is it just me, or is it that no1 who doesnt play doesnt understand?? If my wife tells me it's "just a game" one more time....your gonna read about me in the papers......

Actually, you summed it all up in your very first sentance. NO ONE who doesn't play will understand. Thats ALWAYS going to be a fact of life. The only thing you can HOPE they will understand, is that you enjoy it, and it's your hobby. Believe me, all my co-workers, family and most friends would just shake their heads and say how they couldn't understand the appeal of gaming online. When I was into FPS games, I would just smile and tell em, "It's better for me to be online shooting at virtual people, than out in the street shooting actual people". That usually would get a strange look and a muttered agreement as they backed away....lol....

Now that I'm into the mmorpg's, the line has changed to, " It's better than spending nights in a bar or out in the street looking for trouble."

And in those instances where I have to get up and leave my group stranded or leave the game because the cat brought in another snake, or the wife is frisky, bottom line..... it IS just a game.... ::::05::

oops... sorry, this was supposed to be an edit, slipped and hit quote instead.....doh! ::::26::

ThePhoenix · May 2005

Originally posted by halldorr
You haven't ditched her yet? ;)How about this one....current wife is a bit of a nag, always grumpy (yes even BEFORE CoH) and then you meet a great person in game...ah the complexity of life...

lol..... in CoH..... what are the chances of the 'person' you meet being a girl??? ::::18::

dsorrent · May 2005

Originally posted by LordMiz
Now even tho my 1str repsonse was to be bitter, cuz i feel like i was posting to my wife. BUT, since im talkin to people who "know where im comin from", i'll break it down even further for all the doc's out there. We have a steady social life, we make it a point to go out on a regulare basis, switchin it up each weekend for who wants to do what, but durin the week, we both do the 9-5 thing and at night is our own time, iw asnt postin this sayin "f" the world i wanna play games for my whole life an nutn else....i was sayin people need to be more considerate of things that they find unimportant, but others do, example, if u want me to take a ride to the store, and im in mid mission with 7 other people(or 2-3 others w/e), dont break my balls when i say "ok right after this mission ill log", and her response is "wtf it's just a game, whoe cares, lets go"...thats just rude and ignorant. and for some reason she is unable to understand why....does that make her a nag, in my eyes yes, do i gte mad when she tries to talk to me, of course not, online gamers need to understand also that behind every other comp is sum1's RL, and there will be need for frequent afk's sumtimes.
as for the otehr stuff, im very secure and not worried about "what if's", if wifey strays, thats on her.

Hey man... It sounds to me that you and your wife need to sit down and have a bit of a talk at some point in your busy social schedule there. I went through this exact scenario with my wife before we had our little girl. Now, basically what happens is before I jump online, I ask her if there's anything she needs me to do. For the most part, the answer is no. If there is something that she wants done, I take care of that before I get online. Once I get into a game and I am playing, if she comes in and asks me a question or whatever, I'll turn and answer her. If we're in the middle of a huge battle or something in game, I'll tell her "one sec", tell my group I need to afk after this battle and when it completes, I address whatever my wife wanted. If she needs me to do something, I'll tell her to give me 5 minutes and I'll be right there. At that point I let my group know I need to split in 5 minutes but I may be back on later. Most groups are cool with that, even though I play an Empathy Controller and alot of times I'm the only healer.

To me, it sounds like you and your wife need to meet each other half way. You should not get so irritated if she comes in and asks you something and she should not expect you to drop whatever you're doing immediately to do what she wants. You getting irritated and her expecting your immediate attention is just acts of selfishness on each of your parts. Just as you're posting here that she's a nightmare and a pain in your ass, I'm sure she's thinking that you're lazy, addicted to gaming and just don't care about her.

halldorr · May 2005

Originally posted by shadowrunner
Originally posted by halldorr
You haven't ditched her yet? ;)How about this one....current wife is a bit of a nag, always grumpy (yes even BEFORE CoH) and then you meet a great person in game...ah the complexity of life...

lol..... in CoH..... what are the chances of the 'person' you meet being a girl??? ::::18::

Actually, a fairly large portion of our SG is composed of females and yes they all use Teamspeak I was hugely surprised at the number of girls playing CoH actually.

ThePhoenix · May 2005

Welll........ that IS a surprise! And a COOOOOOL one to say the least! ::::01::

LordMiz · May 2005

alright maybe i shoulda wrote u guys a schedule and been a lil more clear. i MOSTLY play late night when entire family is sleepin, on a few occasions ill go ionline right after i put the baby down, and my wife will be up for another hour or so, and that 1-2 times a week, if that. im not a "lump on a chair", my family doesnt see me on the comp that often, but when she does, it's startin to feel like she's just lookin for sumthin ta bitch about, it's getn old.

Merodoc · May 2005

For some odd reason, you don't come off as a husband or even a homeowner. It must be your muddled thoughts and atrocious grammar.

Furthermore, anyone who took vows would never want to "divorce this nightmare," over something as silly as a video game. You seem positively miffed she wants you to have a life.

Authors note: for future reference, substitute "wife" with "mom" and you will get his real life.

Puoltry · May 2005

LOL!!!!

evilfixx · May 2005

Originally posted by LordMiz
Originally posted by Puoltry
Well it looks as if you are attempting to put more importance on CoH than your real life.I once read an article on gaming addiction and a guy who missed out on his little girl growing up it was really quite sad.The only place she ever saw him for 3 or 4 years was an office chair.She actually thought that was ALL he did.
Let me ask you some questions:
1.Are you a homeowner?
The reason i ask this is apartment renters have more free time to play games.
2.If it is a beautiful sunny saturday and you have a choice of say playing CoH or going outside to do anything like read a book or just hangout wich would you choose?
3.If your wife comes in to ask you a question do you get really really irritated even though she isnt really a "nag"?
4.How many hours a day do you play?More than 5?More than 2?
If you play more than 5 hours a day then just quit cold turkey.I cant play more than 1.5 to 2 hours a day if im lucky to play at all.I wouldnt want to play more than that actually i see it as a waste of time and it stops being fun for me.If being a "tank" in a game is more important than your wife.....well.....maybe you should have not gotten married.Doesnt sound like you want to be anyway.
well dr. puoltry, where do i start, 1st of all, i dont get to play every day, as not only do i work 2 jobs, but i also have a 3 yr old, yes i am a home owner(condo), but i do not get what is the relivence of that. and as for you sounding like my wife, u also missed the point where i was not saying anything was more important, only how ignorant people who dont play can be, just because the game in question is of NO importance whatsoever to them, they expect you to react how they would want you to.
if you think about it, it's all perception anyways, its just another way to hang out with friends, if i was at a bar playing pool with my friends, she would never act that way...but if im online playing a game, "it's just a game" and i should drop it on her whim. it's a matter of respect, which people that dont play games look at them for something only a child should do, instead of respecting or giving a chance to something i obviously enjoy.
And as for whether i should have married her or not, well doc, ya gotta sail the ships you build.

It is just a game.... turn off your PC and take your kid to the zoo...
I don't have any kids yet, but I spend more time with flesh and blood people I know (in bars) and with my wife than I do on my PC.

I got a little scenario for you:

You get the little bambino to bed, and your wife says, "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" and goes into the bedroom and puts on a seductive little Victoria's Secret Special, what goes through your mind:

A. Yes, there's a Hami Raid I may still be able to get in on!
B. Baby monitor on... check! Erection... check!
C. If I log on reeeal quick.....
D. My attention span is only ten minutes anyways... I can still get laid and do a Hami Raid!
E. My attention span is only ten minutes anyways... MULTIPLE ORGASMS!!!!!

You pick anything but B.... you need to turn the PC off for a while.

D.

executordp · May 2005

Heh, well I'm one of those lucky ones who has a girlfriend that plays CoH on her own! Sadly, I don't play anymore =(. The game just lacks any sort of depth. I mean, it was cool when I got more powers and such, but I just didn't see where it was all going to.

I am gonna miss leveling with her though. I mean, what's cooler than grouping with your girlfriend and going through a mission together? It was like, spending time together and playing a game all with one stone. You know, I might even consider staying on here and play WoW at the same time. Although I haven't really tried WoW yet. Still going through finals...

Unless I got her to play WoW instead...

molecule · May 2005

I really like how you say you hardly get to play because you work 2 jobs and your wife is a nag, but your XFire sig says that you've played 51 hours THIS WEEK.

You need to look at this this way bro:
When you are on your death bed, are you going to feel like you've spent enough time with your family or are you going to be regretful for wasting your time on games?

Life is short, and frankly, you're going to be wormfood in a matter of days/years/decades. You have a 3 year old, so you should know how fast time flies by (my first is turning 1 in two weeks). Play games, by all means, but realize that the only thing that matters in this world are the people who love you, not what level you achieve in a silly online game.

Anofalye · May 2005

There are billions of humans.

If you enjoy to think that to raise your family matter that much more then a level in CoH, please do so, but dont try to convince me! Or maybe you will try to convince me about a uber job? Odds are if you read this, you dont have a uber job that matter that much for society and that you are fully replacable.

Billions of humans.

If society need me to have children or to take a uber job, it would be encouraging this. It is not. Raising a family is extremely expensive(someone at minimal wages cant). Having a uber job is requiring a lot of sacrifices, quite many are outrageously insane and unecessary, life would be better by doing those ubers jobs, leaving you many options, not scheduling your time like there is no tomorrow if you want those profits.

School is mostly a mean to keep them busy, and so are those little games...and frankly, after graduating once at University, time to enjoy life.

Billions of humans.

soulabducter · May 2005

yo misty (havent u been playing AO for some time? )

Dont care about all the peeps that dont get ur point, some understand and some dont, thats life. I do know what u mean. Some girls just hate computers, thats a fact! Doesnt matter how long u play, when u play, if u come near the power switch she will be coming and nagging ur neck off. Some girls understand that most guys actually like play games and that they should not feel threatened by it. and some girls actually play games themself. My missus hate games, she dont hate computers though (lucky me ). As some ppl have written here, try come down to some sort of consensus with her.

I know that when I play, I can get a little bit off regarding time. and missus comes asking me when I will come to bed, most of the time I know that the time has already gotten late and that shes right. So I just play another hour or so coz Im in a mish

Alittle back ago I played sometimes during the days, which I stopped doing now since I missed so much time with me kiddows. atm Im not playing any mmorpg game, for a fast gaming session, I log in to UT:insta and do a few maps but thats it.

But I do know that I will be back to mmorpg games when time allow me. I love gaming and all that comes with it but one have to realise that RL has to come first. and as much as I hate to log off, theres always another time. in RL, thats mostly not the case.

Regarding ur problems mist, try explain for ur wife that its only a game but also something u like and the people behind it. when I played UTmod TO I had some RL meetings with my guild. and a tipp from me, dont play during ur kid is awake, I did that to and its not worth it! Log on when the kid has fallen asleep and ur missus is watching DrPhil or whatever girls tend to see if not, rent a movie and have a nice time in the sofa

and my missus is also one of those who cant understand the gaming ethics but U are the one who sets it all in motion, if u have promised ur wife/kid to go out on sat, and when they come to claim that promise, u are the one that actually didnt hold it coz of gaming and u-were-in-a-team-and-cant-leave-now-they-all-die-and-hate-me-for-the-rest-of-my-life. I know, I have done it myself. its so easy to get there. I dont think ur dealing out promises without keeping em but just as an example of how things can be looked upon.

Good luck m8 and wait with gaming until ur kid gets alittle bit older, then both of u can game some thats why I have 3 kids mini-LAN party (turns around looking for missus, dont want her to see this

LordMiz · May 2005

Wow, I can't believe how bad i'm getn flamed here lol. It's funny how only a few gamers actually get my point, and the rest assume i'm a bad father/husband who neglects his family, or i'm some little kid living with nagging parents. Hard to believe that where i thought i would find the most understanding, due to the fact that i know no1 in RL that likes comp games like i do, I found the most cynicism.

I mean c'mon people, have you guys not even read my posts?

I wish i coulda got back for these last few posts sooner, but i drove down to AZ for the weekend, visiting in-laws and lookin at houses down there (big & cheap) a lil outside of phoenix. took the weekend off to do it for wifey, even tho i took the week from my day job. I'm a loan officer 9-5, m-f, and a bartender p/t on the weekends, if your in LV stop in the aladdin's desert passage, and stop in Josef's and say hi (shaved head, mike)

Now for all you flamers, ya missin the point, wifey gets all she needs, my lil girl gets even more (maybe too much kinda spoilt , time spent with family is not an issue, social life is not an issue, let me repeat 1 more time for all you smart people, NO ISSUE, except MY issue, about my wifes lack of respect, for when i am on my games, she views them as something that can be turned off at a moments notice, as if i was playing a single player console game that has no save feature, just turn it off, flick the switch.

now i know the flamers are lookin at xfire (very kool btw, just got it couple weeks ago) and sayin damn this guy plays alot, but what ya dont know is that ive been off work for about nine days, so on top of the 1-2 hours i play b4 i go to bed, ive had a ton of xtra time durin the day and ive played alot more last week.

but now back to RL, i'm at work atm, was checkin emails and saw quite a few responses, and had ta holla back lol

I'm glad there are people who can relate, i guess the rest are all lucky when it comes to women and games lol, cuz i have a brick wall listenin when i try to explain that i have "friends" online also. "how can they be your friends you never even seen them" used to be a popular response lol. She's set in her ways, and to her games will always be something a child plays. but w/e, i started this thread one night after i got a dirty look when she was going to sleep, and she saw me going to turn the comp on. I dont play when my daughter is awake, i barely get to see her enough as it is, hell i rarely play when wifey is awake, but every cynical sob wants to take every frustrated comment and quote" it and tell me how lame i am, i'm neglectful, etc etc etc

Well kiddies, things change when ya get married and have a child, mortgage payments, daycare, car payments, house bills etc etc, all rolled up pretty much necesitate teamwork from you and wifey, and for the most part its kool, but when yuor balancing all that junk and still trying to be a good husband/father, and your still getn shit for tryin to steal a lil time of your own to do what you alone enjoy(and always will), its just lame. and i dont blame myself for getn mad and lashing out a lil on this sight, i blame ignorance, on her part for not being willing to be reasonable about something i enjoy, and on your part for flaming me for being mad about it lol

When i 1st started this i asked "Is it worth wrecking your social life, marriage, relationship etc etc" i admit i added a lil flare for the dramatic lol, but its really the question at the heart of teh problem, only now i realise, she's the one that need to ask herself this question. I work pretty damn hard to be a good father/husband, i shouldnt have to deal with petty attitude over this. who knows, she's been pretty mean last couple months, maybe she's unhappy, maybe she wants out.

well i gotta get back ta work, flame away

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Is it worth wrecking your social life, marriage, relationship etc etc??

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