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Is stealing and scamming considered a normal, expected and acceptable behavior in MMOGs?
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Thats not hand holding but common sense. You don't accidently throw away a large bunt of 100 dollar bills instead of a paperclip IRL. Stuff in game inventory often looks very similar and anyone can click wrong, and to not have a "are you sure?" button in a gme that sells stuff for a fortune is stupid.
Many MMOs do have a lot of hand holding but this is a case of something that only happens because games don't have particularly good inventories.
Yes, but the reason Eve have that is because you can't spend this much money in it.
It is wrong to sell stuff for thousands of money to people and allow others to steal it. Of course that isn't a problem since no one would be stupid enough to play a game that encourage you to really rob the other players, well everyone who played would be theives and no one would buy anything...
What would Mr. Krabs have to say about this? Oh, that's right-
"You've got to roll with the punches, go with the flow... and don't bring anything on an MMO that you ain't prepared to lose!"
Kind of sad that other people cannot sympathize with others. I am sure you would be in the same state had something like this happened to you. The case actually seems to be from faulty mechanics - as he claims it disappeared as soon as it hit the ground - without even giving him the chance to recover his mistake when realized. I don't know. We don't know the entire story.
Sad to say, there is probably nothing he can do- accept be more careful in the future. But I still sympathize.
no theft, and no thief. if the devs take the item from the finder, then THEY will have committed theft.
they cannot just recreate the item in the losers inventory, because this would be unethical reproduction of currency. the stakes were high, and the loser blundered. he lost fair and square, and only to himself.
Comment was really not made towards the OP but more or less his survey. I don't really know the mechanics of Entropia. To me, his posts reads as if he mistakenly dropped 100M and it was destroyed. Dealing with real life currency in virtual items, I feel this poses a real problem if the mechanics or lack of work this way. But again, I do not know how Entropia works.
I agree, it doesn't appear to be theft in the OPs case. It is a loss. A very bad loss. Live and learn I suppose. There is probably not much else he can do.
Yes, yes, you can.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/08/08/eve-player-destroys-over-1000-worth-of-game-time/
My brand new bloggity blog.
Thanks to everyone for your feedback.
I was shocked to see how many people in Entropia Universe considered taking other people's stuff normal and even expected behavior after I dropped that 100M ME stack on the ground, but I didn't expect 30% of posters in here to defend the same position.
As someone else wrote already, I think that anyone who defends those who take other people's stuff worth $1500 USD in a virtual World (especially one with RCE and the option to withdraw money to your Bank account) would most likely steal in real life as well - if they thought they could get away with it.
After dropping a 100M ME stack in Entropia Universe by mistake, I spent a lot of time talking to other players explaining my situation and how all of this could have happened and while most initial reactions were shocking for me (most people were only laughing at me and defending the person who took the 100M ME), the more I talked to people, the more "supporters of my case" I found because it seems like things like that happen A LOT in there, but in most cases MindArk doesn't do anything. From what I've "heard", someone even "lost" a Land Area worth several thousand USD by using the same "drop item" feature and MindArk Support didn't move a finger to help.
There are easy ways for MindArk to fix these game UI issues and avoid things like that happening. It should also be quite easy for them to identify the character who picked the item(s) from the ground and revert the whole process. But instead of helping me, they are hiding the identity of the person who picked the 100M ME stack up and they also offered "Nemrik" the option to create another avatar and transfer everything over, so he could not be "harassed" by myself or other players anymore.
I know I was the one who made the mistake and dropped a stack of the wrong size on the floor, but I don't accept the full blame for doing this because the only difference between these two stacks was a small "M" behind the number "100". As explained in my 3rd case to MindArk Support, a 100.000.000 item stack has a small "100M" while a 100 item stack has a small "100" in the upper left corner, there are no other visible differences - anywhere. And once dropped, even that information becomes invisible and all stacks look the same on the ground (you need to over over each stack with your mouse to see the quantity on the ground).
I was also shocked to see how MindArk Game Support is now acting as if their UI works "as intended" (see their last reply to my last support case) and try to put the whole blame on me. How can the game UI be working "as intended" when you can drop one million times more items on the ground than planned - without even noticing it?
i tried entropia and found it to be a total crap $ sink. every bullet cost you $ and no matter what you hunt, you'll never get back the $ you sunk into it in bullets:D
start a like ARMA2 or something that doesnt cost you $ per bullet:D plenty of other F2P games out there if you just want a MMO to chat in.
[mod edit]
Ah, as in: everyone frequently ganking other players IN GAME are likely to be potential murderers in real life as well, right?
Holy biased and flawed reasoning batman!
My brand new bloggity blog.
I am still trying to get over the fact that it was real money and $1500 worth of it. How can anyone use real money ? Nevermind I am being judgemental.
That's yet another bad example DarkPony, because there is no penalty for me in Entropia Universe if someone kills me there (your HP goes to zero and you are revived at no cost at revival station), but there was a HUGE financial "penalty" for me after someone picked up the 100M stack. You need to start making a distinction between things that actually cost a player something and things that are there for fun.
It's like saying "uhh, i didnt really want to call can i have my bet back?" after your hand lost in a poker game. The rules of the game world are clear. If you make a mistake you lose. Simply as that.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
No, it's not. If it was part of the "game" and there was a chance of me "winning" something, then I would agree. But there was absolutely nothing for me to gain by dropping items on the floor. I did it because it was fun to watch and I never thought I could drop the big stack by mistake while dropping a lot of small ones. But then ... bad UI design and human error "kicked in". And someone took advantage of that.
PS. I wonder if those who are defending this "theft" in here would show the same attitude if they were discussing it among friends, in a classroom or family. I can't believe anyone would stand out and defend a thief in real life, yet here a lot of people look at this as "a game" - even though it should be obvious to anyone who read the story that it was not part of the game but simply a mistake.
Being able to do something does not automatically make it right.
And I never "SURRENDERED POSESSION" of my items, I simply dropped them on the ground just like I could drop something on the ground in real life. And just like in RL, anyone could have picked the items up but they still wouldn't belong to them - unless I did it intentionally and let them keep it.
The difference in Entropia Universe was that I did NOT EVEN NOTICE that I have dropped a $1500 USD note while dropping a lot of small 1 cent coins. And if you read my explanation, you would understand how that could happen.
Yes, it was a mistake. And yes, it is also my fault. But no, I did not "surrender posession" of my items worth $1.500 USD to "public space".
And I never "SURRENDERED POSESSION" of my items, I simply dropped them on the ground just like I could drop something on the ground in real life. And just like in RL, anyone could have picked the items up but they still wouldn't belong to them - unless I did it intentionally and let them keep it.
The difference in Entropia Universe was that I did NOT EVEN NOTICE that I have dropped a $1500 USD note while dropping a lot of small 1 cent coins. And if you read my explanation, you would understand how that could happen.
Yes, it was a mistake. And yes, it is also my fault. But no, I did not "surrender posession" of my items worth $1.500 USD to "public space".
Let me get it... you were doing silly things, you didn't pay attention, you actually *had* $1500 in your backpack (i'm pretty sure there are places to securely store stuff as in every game), you knew that you could do that mistake (because you were dropping items with the same graphic, just different amount), you did it anyway and you are now complaining?
In RL your stuff can drop on floor casually and that is accounted for, but on any MMO stuff doesn't simply drop off as you walk. The only way to drop something is to do that on purpose, and when you drop something you actually *surrender possession* of it because there certainly is some security mechanism (like a popup or some kind of item lock) to double-check what you are going to do and confirm it. Whatever is on the ground, in any known game, is free for picking as long as it can be picked (i.e. not "flagged). Always.
Also, if Mindark was to remove stuff off someone and give it back to you, there would be even MORE legal problems (you lost something because of your carelessness, you deal with it... but for them to remove an item someone legally picked up from the ground and give it back to you is far worse).
Sorry to hear about your loss. I agree that it's bad game mechanics if you are not at least asked "are you sure?" before you drop it and that it's hard to discern between 100 and 100M. Also, while I do not think the player who took it can be blamed, it IS a bit iffy that he immediately took it. A honest player would have asked "are you sure you want to throw away 100M?" Sure, he may not have broken ToS or committed a crime, but I don't think that it really is morally acceptable. I have played a few games that I've quit and I have always given away my items and money and every time I traded with someone, they all asked me if I was really sure I want to give it to them. I think that would have been the normal thing to do.
The best you can do is to quit and not spend a dime there again. It was your mistake, yes, but I am not sure if what the support does is wise. After all, you spent so much money, everywhere else, you would be a valued customer. I know it's not my place to tell you so, but that is why I play pay to play games. You spend a set amount of money, if someone scams you in game, it's only time, not money lost and the customer support is MUCH better. Also, gameplay mechanics are much better in most cases.
I am with you on here, it is very clear that it was the OPs fault for dropping it on the ground, the game seems to be quite clear you drop something, anyone else can pick it up, there is no crime, it was your mistake, but no one influenced it, the UI hasnt changed, you should have paid more attention and double checked the amount that is how it works, you may not agree with the UI ( specially now ) but its their interface and you agreed to use it so much that you bought 1500USD worth of virtual items.
Someone took it the same way someone would have taken the 0.015USD you were gonna drop, there is no difference in the way you interacted with the game world, as soon as it is out of your inventory it is subject to the same rules as any other worthless item.
Now I feel sorry for you I really do, its really crap when something like this happens even without spending money if I dropped an item I woul be upset but you have no one else to blame but yourself for the mistake, you should now pay attention and double check amounts when dealing with stuff that is worth that much IRL cash.
There is no crime on anyone's behalf here, and I honestly doubt that they will refund you back 1500, because they would have to recall 1500USD from whatever it might have gone or pay you from their own pocket 1500USD cause you made a mistake. That is just not gonna happen, business wise its more profitable to just have you leave the game and spent the 1500 than refund you out of their good will, not that they have to.
>there is your gain
> saying the wrong thing to stay in alignment with the rest to avoid a bad image doesnt make it right
> happened in the game ...
The game is its own world with its own rules. One beeing whats on the ground is free for all. If your country had the same rule and you dropped your wallet many would jump at it likewise and as it would be legal police could do nothing likewise.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
The first day PLEX were able to be carried in ships, a Kestrel (small frigate) was hit by a war target and it blew up 74 PLEX.
(74 / 2) * $34.99 = $1294.63 USD
http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/08/08/eve-player-destroys-over-1000-worth-of-game-time/
Depends on the rules of the game. In EVE your mistake would be entirely your own fault, and support would do nothing to help you. Scamming, and stealing are in fact, acceptable and normal in EVE, so its defintely a buyer beware world.
Heck, in EVE there are players who infiltrate alliances and make off with ships/blueprint orignials etc worth far more than $1500, and there's no penalty.
Should the game mechanics perhaps have cautioned you, I suppose so, but I've made similar mistakes in other games and there wasn't much I could do. (or course, they weren't at the magnitude you're talking about)
I think right now the real world value of virutual items is very much still in question from a legal point of view though I suppose someday a case like the OPS might set a precedince.
One things for sure, the GM's can probably figure out who picked up your stuff, but they'll never tell you because that would be illegal.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's small change, people routinely lose ships and stuff worth far more than the OP's. I recall a corp mate who once lost a ship for of BPO's that were worth an estimated 6000.00 if sold for ISK/Plex. I can't even calculate how much ISK/rl cash was lost from the infiltrators who managed to break apart BOB and Goonswarm.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, saying you can't spend that much money in EVE is kinda funny. Everyone should remember that Russian Metal Mogul guy who got banned last year, for buying $150,000 USD worth of ISK illegaly from sellers.
Look, I'm not going to get into the legality of dropping things in a game... that's a whole other matter, but people who are saying things like 'If you drop money in RL, it's fair game' are just plain wrong.
Even if you threw your wallet in the trash, it's still theft if somebody picks it up and doesn't report it to the police station. At least, in the US. I don't know about other countries, but I assume most of them are the same.
There was a news story fairly recently, locally, where a woman picked up a wallet with several hundreddollars in it from the ground at a Dunkin' Donuts. Because it was caught on tape, the police staked the place out for a WEEK, and caught the lady when she came back. Busted for stealing.
If the police can pin evidence on you picking up somebody's wallet off the ground... unless they toss it down and say out loud something like 'Anybody who wants it can have my wallet', it's theft.
Actually, the less you drop (say a dollar or so), the less the police will care. Once it hits a certain monetary value it becomes a felony.
All you people who are saying otherwise are either from some crazy 3rd world country with a horrible law system, or you are woefully misinformed. I'd suggest walking up to a police station and ask them 'Just theoretically, say I found a wallet with a thousand dollars in it, do I have to give it back?'. Oh, and uhm... don't get mad at me when you end up in trouble because they think you're hiding a thousand dollars and not turning it in, haha.
Seriously. People here have a really shoddy grasp on what the law is. I can't speak for the law so far as virtual property goes, but real life property does not work the way you people seem to think it does. Dropping your wallet does not make it fair game for everybody passing by. :P
The title is misleading, it should be: is whinning and demanding nanny to clean up the poo you made considered normal, expected and acceptable behavior in MMOGs?