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If anyone here has been scammed by NDOORS or treated wrong.

Feel free to post your experiences here.

 

I believe the type of company they have running is illegal, and is a money racketeering scam.

 

I don't tolerate myself or others getting treated like garbage and wish to hear your experiences on anything that has happened to you.

 

Feel free to pass the word around to people, friends, anyone you know and have them tell their stories.

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Comments

  • motorunmotorun Member UncommonPosts: 29

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    I believe the type of company they have running is illegal, and is a money racketeering scam.

    Based on what evidence? You stated none, at all.

  • PesmergiaPesmergia Member Posts: 75

    The first bit of evidence from myself is RMT in itself.

     

    Read the companys ToS, any forms of RMT will be subject to an account ban, yet the game is built around RMT, paying cash for in game items through GCoins is RMT.

     

    That alone is plenty to go by.

  • bisurgebisurge Member UncommonPosts: 168

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    The first bit of evidence from myself is RMT in itself.

     

    Read the companys ToS, any forms of RMT will be subject to an account ban, yet the game is built around RMT, paying cash for in game items through GCoins is RMT.

     

    That alone is plenty to go by.

    No, it isn't. I doubt you're a lawyer or any studier of law. The GCoins are purchased through Real Money Trading, but technically the GCoins are then used to buy the in-game items. This way, they can get the benefits of official RMT while voiding all those other third parties that do not have access to a GCoin system because they can't get into the game's coding.

    I hoped you had fun trying to be a lawyer, because you sort of failed at it.

  • PesmergiaPesmergia Member Posts: 75

    Originally posted by bisurge

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    Originally posted by bisurge

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    The first bit of evidence from myself is RMT in itself.

     

    Read the companys ToS, any forms of RMT will be subject to an account ban, yet the game is built around RMT, paying cash for in game items through GCoins is RMT.

     

    That alone is plenty to go by.

    No, it isn't. I doubt you're a lawyer or any studier of law. The GCoins are purchased through Real Money Trading, but technically the GCoins are then used to buy the in-game items. This way, they can get the benefits of official RMT while voiding all those other third parties that do not have access to a GCoin system because they can't get into the game's coding.

    I hoped you had fun trying to be a lawyer, because you sort of failed at it.

     You sort of fail at reading into things.

     

    Law takes more into consideration than what you say which is the typical childish IQ less than 30 response which is according to you:

     

    If you spend X to get to Y then Z is not equal to X + Y

     

    X being money

     

    Y being Gcoins

     

    Z being in-game item.

     

    Sorry you fail pretty hard here, shouldn't have even posted.

    Sorry this post didn't make sense at all. "If you spend X to get to Y then Z is not equal to X + Y".

    You failed to define any of your variables, voiding all logic in your post.

    Ah, thank you for that edit. The money is not taken out of the formula, but from a legal standpoint the money was used to purchase the GCoins, not the real objects. It's a one-way transaction, so yes, in a way the money is taken out of the formula. We're talking reality vs paperwork here. In reality, the money is what fuels it. But on paper, the money is not what is actually used to trade for the item.

    If you want to make this kind of claim, then try looking at it from a law perspective, not a mathematical perspective.

     It doesn't matter, law does take that into consideration.

     

    RMT is trading for anyting virtual, including the money used.

     

    Gcoins is virtual in itself which means RMT = RMT.

     

    RMT = trading for anything virtual, gcoins are virtual or did you somehow forget this?

  • PesmergiaPesmergia Member Posts: 75

    If person X tells someone, which is person Y to kill Z they are both charged.

     

    Wow dude.

     

    If person X PAYS person Y to kill Z.

     

    Person Y and X are charged because ACCORDING TO ARGUMENT HERE, we have to use money in the formula like the 1st argument.

     

    Meaning X and Y are both at fault, X doesn't get a get out of jail free card because of money.

     

    You youself do not grasp basic mathmetics, you toss out some irrelevant argument not related to topic, you remove money out of the original equation to try to make yourself right, when in fact you are incorrect.

  • bisurgebisurge Member UncommonPosts: 168

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    If person X tells someone, which is person Y to kill Z they are both charged.

     

    Wow dude.

     

    If person X PAYS person Y to kill Z.

     

    Person Y and X are charged because ACCORDING TO ARGUMENT HERE, we have to use money in the formula like the 1st argument.

     

    Meaning X and Y are both at fault, X doesn't get a get out of jail free card because of money.

    Yes, they'll both be charged. But the person who paid/told the other person would NOT be charged for the direct murder. The telling and the killing are considered different things. If you believe otherwise, then there's no point for me to argue with you because you need to get your facts straight first.

    Also, you do realize that on the ijji Terms of Service there is no mention of real money trading, right? It is only in the Atlantica Terms of Service. GCoins are bought from the site, not from Atlantica. So basically it's money -> GCoins -> in-game items. Between the first two is the ijji Terms of Service, which it does not void. The money is not taken into account for the second transaction, because the money has already been taken into account by the first transaction. If it was just money -> in-game items, that would void the Atlantica Terms of Service.

    You have to understand something here: THIS ISN'T MATH. This isn't x = y = z, so therefore x = z (where x, y, and z are real numbers and the first equation is the given). This is not always the case in the real world, because not everything is backwards compatible (unlike the equal sign).

  • PesmergiaPesmergia Member Posts: 75

    Originally posted by bisurge

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    If person X tells someone, which is person Y to kill Z they are both charged.

     

    Wow dude.

     

    If person X PAYS person Y to kill Z.

     

    Person Y and X are charged because ACCORDING TO ARGUMENT HERE, we have to use money in the formula like the 1st argument.

     

    Meaning X and Y are both at fault, X doesn't get a get out of jail free card because of money.

    Yes, they'll both be charged. But the person who paid/told the other person would NOT be charged for the direct murder. The telling and the killing are considered different things. If you believe otherwise, then there's no point for me to argue with you because you need to get your facts straight first.

    Also, you do realize that on the ijji Terms of Service there is no mention of real money trading, right? It is only in the Atlantica Terms of Service. GCoins are bought from the site, not from Atlantica. So basically it's money -> GCoins -> in-game items. Between the first two is the ijji Terms of Service, which it does not void. The money is not taken into account for the second transaction, because the money has already been taken into account by the first transaction. If it was just money -> in-game items, that would void the Atlantica Terms of Service.

    You have to understand something here: THIS ISN'T MATH. This isn't x = y = z, so therefore x = z (where x, y, and z are real numbers and the first equation is the given). This is not always the case in the real world, because not everything is backwards compatible (unlike the equal sign).

     They will in fact be charged for the murder are you kidding me both will be charged, to a different degree but still applicable.

     

    Also everything is backwards compatible, everything.

     

    Atlantica provides the method of trading money for virtual currency, or it would not be there, or in any relation to their game, it would not exist.

     

    So if atlantica states that RMT is not allowed and is a bannable offense why do they offer the service for the transaction of gcoins clearly listed on their website, if it was not directly applied to Atlantica, it wouldn't be posted on their website.

     

    The atlantica ToS applies to anything dealing with the game, and gcoins deals with the game, and as a matter of fact is highly promoted INSIDE of the game to purchase gcoins.

     

    If atlantica ToS prohibits RMT then they would not allow access to the feature to do make the transaction to use virtual currency for in game items on their MAIN website.

     

    Also Atlantica ToS applies to anything dealing with the game at all, any items and how they are obtained.

     

    Because you use a middle man, does not forfeit the ToS in by purchasing gcoins.  Because atlantica ToS is always in application from the beginning to end, not just after gcoin purchase.

     

    I don't get how to try to remove atlantica ToS from the purchase of gcoins honestly.  You are RMT'ing for gcoins we all know that. 

     

    So if you are RMTING for gcoins altantica ToS is in effect before the item is obtained, BECAUSE why?

     

    Because atlantica ToS does not SPECIFY in the ToS at all to which degree of RMT, it simply states ANY RMT is a bannable offense, period.

     

    The ToS applies to anything that deals, like I said, with atlantica.

     

    When you purchase gcoins, you are doing so, for the effect on the game.  Any action that is related to atlantica, the ToS applies to, gcoins applies to atlantica otherwise we wouldn't be talking now.

     

    It would be different if Atlantica did not promote the purchase of gcoins inside game, but it is clearly advertised.

     

    When you enter the game you agree to the ToS.

     

    When you agree to the ToS, you logon, and see gcoins advertised.

     

    They advertise RMT inside the game, according to your logic, you say ToS does not apply because you are purchasing gcoins and not the item.  But they advertise the purchase of the gcoins for the item inside the game, and spending real money for gcoins is RMT in itself correct?

     

    Now you don't have to buy the item sure.  There is more of a blank spot to fill. 

     

    But even-so it doesn't matter, because RMT is RMT and a bannable offense, clearly listed in ToS.

     

    RMT is RMT of any form.

     

    So if you're inside the game and they advertise gcoins, then they are advertising RMT for the gcoins going against their own ToS.

     

     

  • bisurgebisurge Member UncommonPosts: 168

    I think we've posted enough to let the reader decide.

    You're just restating your argument and saying mine is wrong.

    So, it's pointless to keep arguing. Let the people you're trying to warn decide whether to heed your warning or not.

  • DedthomDedthom Member Posts: 541

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    Feel free to post your experiences here.

     

    I believe the type of company they have running is illegal, and is a money racketeering scam.

     

    I don't tolerate myself or others getting treated like garbage and wish to hear your experiences on anything that has happened to you.

     

    Feel free to pass the word around to people, friends, anyone you know and have them tell their stories.

     I have told everyone I can as you asked but the people in the line at the grocery store keep looking at me funny.

    Seriously, in order to not sound like a whiner you come here and post pseudo legal BS.

    You gave a company on the internet money in return you did not recieve what you expected. So, some 13 year old Asian child "pwned your noob a$$" in a game or you didn't get to end game in the planned for 10 weeks.

    The "X=Y+Z" is really over the top. You got screwed so now your pissed, just admit it and move on.

    ""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
    Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    alright i was gonna walk past this 1 but i cant resist. They are not stealing or scaming anything. Companies offer their own site currency which can be used to purshace items in their games. Their is ALOT of f2p companies doing this. you are not loosing your money. You get the items ingame u want. I think the op has a problam with the cash shop system and seeks revenged on it. Now if you even had a IQ and attempted to even try to take your way of thinking into court. You would go broke paying court costs and fee's. Not to mention be laughed out of the court system. See lets use are brains today Currency  that nitfy thing called cash u know just like Gcoins. You use this cash to buy services and pay utilities and get stuff for your home. Now Gcoins currency is used to get ingame items. Now lets factor in your thinking....You basicaly are saying that Entire planet is scaming every1.   Truth is all buisness's and life runs off currency, just the same as most free to play games do. Your logic has failed you. My typing skill's suck but my point outwits anything uve said. because gcoins are identical to normal cash except they can only be used for ingame items. and cash can be used for anything . Have a great day. Good luck gettin laughed out of court if ya try that route :-)

  • PesmergiaPesmergia Member Posts: 75

    Actually my problem is not the cash shop system.

     

    My problem is my friend getting banned for purchasing gold which = RMT.

     

    Not that it effects me but we played together for months.

     

    The reason I listed all that I did, was because they ban him for RMT gold purchasing, but they advertise RMT in game and the whole game is built around RMT.

     

    So it seems a little retarded.

     

    owell back to doing repeats. 

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    its like this. i know alot of f2p companies who actually put blocks on how many purchases you can do a day buying Gcoins. However if your friend was buying ingame cureency then yes he Broke tos and got wat he deserved. Most games allow item mall items to be sold ingame anyhow. Reason they set this type of system up is to help combat ingame currency sellers and try to make it tough for all those damn gold famers  from making RL cash. Now if your friend bought Gcoins and did everything that doesnt break the TOS rules then tellem to send a ticket in and most likley it was a temp ban. Reason companies do this is to prevent fraudualant purchases and to prevent them from trying to buy somthing when the banks dry. heres an example u can only do 3 purchases a week on requiem: momentor Mori.  their ban if u go over applys only to the payment systen and is lifted with in a few days and sumtimes happens ingame. But again its a preventative. However if ur pal bought Ingame money using RL cash then yes it breaks tos. Because you are supporting the botters/hackers IE gold farmers who kill game economy's and fuck up every game they pop into. so if he got banned for that.. then Kuddos to NDoors for teaching him a lesson. Do it legit or dont play at all :-)

  • devilPandadevilPanda Member Posts: 12

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    Actually my problem is not the cash shop system.

     

    My problem is my friend getting banned for purchasing gold which = RMT.

     

    Not that it effects me but we played together for months.

     

    The reason I listed all that I did, was because they ban him for RMT gold purchasing, but they advertise RMT in game and the whole game is built around RMT.

     

    So it seems a little retarded.

     

    owell back to doing repeats. 

    I think you're misunderstanding them then. They don't like RMT from OUTSIDE sources, meaning they don't want you to go to some other goldselling company to buy stuff, instead of going through them. You buy in-game currency to buy in-game items from THEM, not from some other company. 

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,008

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

     

     

    Law takes more into consideration than what you say which is the typical childish IQ less than 30 response which is according to you:

     

     

    Is that not in itself a little chldish. . sure doesn't help your cause.  Also law takes one thing into account. . and that is the law.  A company has the right do do that with their product.  You could say that the TOS is not legally binding if you want or violates other laws but the bottom line is that when you accept one. . (A TOS) you accept that they own everything virtual and on their servers related to the game.  There is not much getting around this one.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • bjgladitschbjgladitsch Member Posts: 88

    Originally posted by Pesmergia

    Actually my problem is not the cash shop system.

     

    My problem is my friend getting banned for purchasing gold which = RMT.

     

    Not that it effects me but we played together for months.

     

    The reason I listed all that I did, was because they ban him for RMT gold purchasing, but they advertise RMT in game and the whole game is built around RMT.

     

    So it seems a little retarded.

     

    owell back to doing repeats. 

    Finally we are at the root of the whole posting.  Buddy..your friend got busted for purchasing gold from an outside source, not NDOORS.  ToS clearly states this is illegal and bannable.  Gold sellers exist because technically there are no federal or international laws that ban them..they are only illegal in the eyes of game devs and game companies cause they are not getting a cut of the money. 

    Game companies clearly state in their ToS that if you want to play our game on our servers, here are the rules you must obey.  Violate them and you wll lose access.  They will argue it is so they can keep control over the operation of the games and for the most part that is true. 

    Some games DO Offer players purchaseable ingame gold but doing such often gives the game a bad reputation as beying a game you can pay your way to the top.

    As a former law student and one whom worked for serveral years as a paralegal for an attorney that specialized in intellectual property law I can tell you straight up that NDOORS is not in violation of any laws that would make it an illegal company.  Your friend however violated the rules of the game and therefore has been banned.

    Your friend broke the rules of the game and was punished...end of story.

  • OmaliOmali MMO Business CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,171

    Originally posted by bjgladitsch

    Finally we are at the root of the whole posting.  Buddy..your friend got busted for purchasing gold from an outside source, not NDOORS.  ToS clearly states this is illegal and bannable.  Gold sellers exist because technically there are no federal or international laws that ban them..they are only illegal in the eyes of game devs and game companies cause they are not getting a cut of the money. 

    You'll find that there are a number of companies that have successfully prosecuted gold farmers by using the intellectual property laws. The currency/items are the intellectual property of the company, which makes it illegal to sell without their express written consent.

    The reason many gold farmers go unprosecuted is because they are very difficult to find, let alone sue.

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

    image

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Even P2P games ban people from buying RMT.

    And for F2P games, it's personal for the game company.  Since they sell RMT themself.  If people buy it else where, it cut their profit.

  • crunchyblackcrunchyblack Member Posts: 1,362

    Not sure what the OP, or the people who seriously respond are smoking, i hope they brought enough for everyone...

    All this drivel aside, i would liken Atlanticas cash shop to more of a gambling type endeavour.

    A decent amount of their cash shop items are more or less slot machine pulls.  You want the wings or mount or whatever, you buy the box, you open it and get potions or scrolls.  You have odds to win what you want, however your only purchasing the CHANCE to obtain it.  Lets be real here, nobody spends the money (what is it $15 for on of these) hoping to get some scrolls.  They buy it for the advertised cool item.

    You hear about people spending upwards of $50 and not getting the item they origionally intended to purchase.

    So all this "im a freshman in law school so i know law" conversation aside, this game features underage gambling.

     

    Argue that angle since this XYZ crap is retarded, RMT is how they make money, you cannot RMT though 3rd parties (is implied)  your arguments that RMT means they can not have a cash shop reminds me of that coke zero commercial where cocacola guys  are talking to a lawyer about patent infringment, because zero taste so much like the real thing, or whatever.

    Are you suggesting Ndoors lawyers up and sue themselves for damages inccured from their own cash shop sales?  Yeah didnt think so.

    Dont buy gold from framers who obtain it at the expense of others game experience.  He got what he deserved.

  • nethstarnethstar Member Posts: 24

    Don't argue...just boycott the IM. If its against your personal opinion they break ToS then just leave that part of the game alone.

     

    Its not like you can take them on against their own ToS. IMO its the gambling element that puts me on edge with IM. Alot of people have mentioned its near enough illegal in the state of Cali for the way the boxes are set up, but who''s going to try and take on the company. The cali branch is only an outpost for the international version of Atlantica online. (as in, it does nothing in relation to the actual GAME functions and features apart from translation)

    Instead of going mental, just go here: http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=45241&start=326&posts=346

    If you're part of the forum, just sign it.

  • reimarureimaru Member Posts: 228

    Originally posted by nethstar

    Don't argue...just boycott the IM. If its against your personal opinion they break ToS then just leave that part of the game alone.

     

    Its not like you can take them on against their own ToS. IMO its the gambling element that puts me on edge with IM. Alot of people have mentioned its near enough illegal in the state of Cali for the way the boxes are set up, but who''s going to try and take on the company. The cali branch is only an outpost for the international version of Atlantica online. (as in, it does nothing in relation to the actual GAME functions and features apart from translation)

    Instead of going mental, just go here: http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=45241&start=326&posts=346

    If you're part of the forum, just sign it.

    well at least this guys wanted the game to be better, unlike some thread starter who complains being scammed and in the end they indeed vilolate something lol

    image

  • DrolkinDrolkin Member UncommonPosts: 246

    Wow, bisurge should've quit while he was behind.

    My guild leader spent a lot on the item mall when I used to play, he told me when you hit about $300 in a month spent on their mall they send you an email thanking you for your support and give you a 2% discount on the mall, I've never heard this from anyone who has spent less then that, needless to say it is an evil trap setup by snakes to take advantage of those who can't control their gcoin spending habit, that 2% discount is an extremely tempting lure for those who have problems(real mental issue) with overspending on gcoins and the people giving out that 2% discount know EXACTLY what they are doing.

    By the way bisruge, ever heard of the term, "the people have spoken"? 

  • bisurgebisurge Member UncommonPosts: 168

    Originally posted by Drolkin

    Wow, bisurge should've quit while he was behind.

    My guild leader spent a lot on the item mall when I used to play, he told me when you hit about $300 in a month spent on their mall they send you an email thanking you for your support and give you a 2% discount on the mall, I've never heard this from anyone who has spent less then that, needless to say it is an evil trap setup by snakes to take advantage of those who can't control their gcoin spending habit, that 2% discount is an extremely tempting lure for those who have problems(real mental issue) with overspending on gcoins and the people giving out that 2% discount know EXACTLY what they are doing.

    By the way bisruge, ever heard of the term, "the people have spoken"? 

    Did you read the rest of the thread?

    "The people have spoken"? By "people", do you mean the original poster? Because out of all subsequent posts so far, only you have taken the OP's position.

    I hate Atlantica's Item Mall. But I think:

    1. spending habits are a person's own choice

    2. the original poster isn't complaining about Item Mall stuff.

    Number one is self explanatory.

    Number two, I think the guy tried buying gold from a third party and got banned for it.

    I hate the Item Mall as much as anyone else, but if you looked at some of the posts, you'll find out that it's not about the Item Mall.

  • BoltonsquadBoltonsquad Member UncommonPosts: 377

    Even if this guy did get banned for using RMT i can see why.

    If you want to progress past level 95-120 you are going to need alot and i mean alot of ingame currency which is only obtainable through the item mall or RMT.

    If you dont use the item mall at level 96-120 then you not going to get anywhere, no dungeons, no nation dungeons, skirmishs indys anything, because you wont have the gear/might to even attempt.

  • bisurgebisurge Member UncommonPosts: 168

    Originally posted by Boltonsquad

    Even if this guy did get banned for using RMT i can see why.

    If you want to progress past level 95-120 you are going to need alot and i mean alot of ingame currency which is only obtainable through the item mall or RMT.

    If you dont use the item mall at level 96-120 then you not going to get anywhere, no dungeons, no nation dungeons, skirmishs indys anything, because you wont have the gear/might to even attempt.

    May I inquire how many Free-to-Play games you have played?

    In a ridiculous amount of games (MapleStory before the two EXP requirement reductions to level, Rappelz, Dungeons and Dragons Online, LOTRO until recently, Runes of Magic Online, just to name a few) that are Free-to-Play require you either to use the cash shop, use the RMT, or suffer an incredibly tough experience to continue leveling.

    I'm sorry, but that's part of the F2P experience right now. It's no excuse to start breaking laws (the ToS is technically legally binding, if anyone is stupid enough to sue when they get banned). When you hit a certain cap, you won't be able to go anymore until you pay the company or risk getting banned by using exterior means.

    In the games listed above:

    MapleStroy before the EXP required to level was reduced - after level 60, it was very hard to level at one point without using the 2x and 3x exp coupons. This went on for less than a year before Nexon lost too much advertising money and reduced the EXP required to level.

    Rappelz - Leveling past 70 without Stamina Savers was nearly impossible without playing gartuitous hours and grinding the same monsters repetitively. It still is, although some people have inspired others to do it (at great peril to their free time).

    Dungeons and Dragons Online - The maximum F2P level is 14 (when I played it, anyway) unless you level two characters from every server to this level to buy expansions and get one character to 20.

    Lord of the Rings Online - Similar to the above, except closer to max level, until recently when they began giving out more free quest packs.

    Runes of Magic Online - after mid level (I forgot specifics on this game, since I quit early after finding this out), it becomes silly to upgrade your equipment past the basic levels unless you pay real money to (basically) gaurantee that it'll be successful. This eventually led to a disgustingly drastic damage difference between F2P and subscription players.

    There will ALWAYS be Pay2Win models in F2P gaming. Unfortunately, they are most likely here to stay. It's no excuse to break laws. If you're going to RMT anyway, why not play a better subscription based game? I know Atlantica has its charms with its unique combat, but once you hit the hypothetical "F2P max", you either have to start over, press through, or pay for something that - simply put - isn't worth it.

  • BoltonsquadBoltonsquad Member UncommonPosts: 377

    Originally posted by bisurge

    Originally posted by Boltonsquad

    Even if this guy did get banned for using RMT i can see why.

    If you want to progress past level 95-120 you are going to need alot and i mean alot of ingame currency which is only obtainable through the item mall or RMT.

    If you dont use the item mall at level 96-120 then you not going to get anywhere, no dungeons, no nation dungeons, skirmishs indys anything, because you wont have the gear/might to even attempt.

    May I inquire how many Free-to-Play games you have played?

    In a ridiculous amount of games (MapleStory before the two EXP requirement reductions to level, Rappelz, Dungeons and Dragons Online, LOTRO until recently, Runes of Magic Online, just to name a few) that are Free-to-Play require you either to use the cash shop, use the RMT, or suffer an incredibly tough experience to continue leveling.

    I'm sorry, but that's part of the F2P experience right now. It's no excuse to start breaking laws (the ToS is technically legally binding, if anyone is stupid enough to sue when they get banned). When you hit a certain cap, you won't be able to go anymore until you pay the company or risk getting banned by using exterior means.

    In the games listed above:

    MapleStroy before the EXP required to level was reduced - after level 60, it was very hard to level at one point without using the 2x and 3x exp coupons. This went on for less than a year before Nexon lost too much advertising money and reduced the EXP required to level.

    Rappelz - Leveling past 70 without Stamina Savers was nearly impossible without playing gartuitous hours and grinding the same monsters repetitively. It still is, although some people have inspired others to do it (at great peril to their free time).

    Dungeons and Dragons Online - The maximum F2P level is 14 (when I played it, anyway) unless you level two characters from every server to this level to buy expansions and get one character to 20.

    Lord of the Rings Online - Similar to the above, except closer to max level, until recently when they began giving out more free quest packs.

    Runes of Magic Online - after mid level (I forgot specifics on this game, since I quit early after finding this out), it becomes silly to upgrade your equipment past the basic levels unless you pay real money to (basically) gaurantee that it'll be successful. This eventually led to a disgustingly drastic damage difference between F2P and subscription players.

    There will ALWAYS be Pay2Win models in F2P gaming. Unfortunately, they are most likely here to stay. It's no excuse to break laws. If you're going to RMT anyway, why not play a better subscription based game? I know Atlantica has its charms with its unique combat, but once you hit the hypothetical "F2P max", you either have to start over, press through, or pay for something that - simply put - isn't worth it.

    Ive played many F2P games which require you to spend a small amount to progress, Atlantica Online is way beyond the "Small amount".

    Another thing about it is the "Luck" based system in the boxes the item mall sells, you can spend $300 and not even get the main item advertised in the box, just tons of other junk.

    When games start selling you how should i put it "A Lottery Ticket" in order to progress this is when RMT is more beneficial.

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