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a review from a 3.5 year lifetime sub player
Been playing 3 1/2 years in what is a very good game but a word of warning about their forums. They heavily moderate them (which I dont really have a problem with) but until yesterday I didn't realize how much they were censoring them. I've heard for months about posts vanishing without a word and didn't take them seriously and i know the forums are theirs but at the same time folks have a right to know what is wrong with the game as well as what is right.
I am very active on the forums (4000+) posts and yesterday I posted about what I'd like to see happen. Nothing too critical but I mentioned the long term bugs in pvp (rollbacks, disconnection ect) and poof there went the post. I didn't realize it til I tried to post in another thread when it said my posts were being moderated and had to be approved that I was in hot water with Turbine. All they will say is that I am being moderated so I messaged Sapience with how I felt about it all. Now let me say, I completely understand game companies needing to control content but this goes too far. With 2 lifetime subs and lots of cash spent over the years for expansion and now the lotro store I felt it was a slap in the face.
I plan to go back in a year when the proposed pvp changes are due to come in (yes I know the game wasn't designed for pvp) but lots of us have a good time with the pvp as it's unique and not like any other pvp I've ever done. But its horribly ignored now after a good start early on. Game stopping bugs rollback players costing them 20 to 40minutes of progress after they crash and relog. The servers haven't been up to the numbers pvping for along time and with f2p allowing free pvp in the fall it's just gotten worse and is heading downhill.
That said, the pve game, is very polished the best I've seen in 14 years of mmoing. If only they would acknowledge the pvp problems and communicate with the very active pvp population. But that's not what I really complained about. They are without a doubt the slowest moving mmo I've ever experienced. It was just likek them to announce big changes a year in advance. Everything they do is slow and methodical so if something doesn't work don't get in a hurry for a fix.
The one thing they are quick at: moderating forums. Infractions fly at lightspeed for minor offenses with nary a reply to any questions you have about recieving one. Now for me, I've recieved 3 infractions in 3.5 years which is nothing really and 2 of those I felt weren't justified but they don't talk to you they just implement. Even mentioning an infraction is grounds for another and eventual banishment for 3 days. Longer sentences follow unti permanent banning. This includes the game itself so be aware.
In game if you are reported for cussing, harrassment, or just about anything you can be banned. Most things aren't very serious but there are groups of players who have made it their tribal cry to report anything. Now i mostly behave myself as I'm too old to need attention and I've always defended turbine through AC, DDo and now Lotro but to me they've gone too far.
Even if I take heat now for this I felt it was my duty to my fellow gamers to illuminate the very rosy picture of lotro portrayed publically. I warned Sapience I was going to do this and I am resolute in my quest. I love the game but not at the cost of my fellow gamers. The f2p has turned them into a cash machine and an image controlling group who can't take any criticism of their game whether it's justified or not.
Thanks for reading.
Comments
Getting moderated I thought took several red pips as in very negative reputation. However that does not take long to roll up since that is controled by the forum hounds ( political fan boys). I know for sure that Spatients and the other moderators will add negative rep when they fill like it.
On and sending a PM to Spatients that can get you an infraction depending on the mood she is in. I know now with the new rules of 5 infractions over an account lifetime will get you a permanent vacation from their forums.
I think other folks have pointed out how post seam to go poof into thin air, and those usually get close and go poof too. I had a few of my threads there disappear as well, and now with the new forum layout actually checking those has been a pain.
I wish you luck with your post in lotro, especially in the pvp area those usually get heated very quickly.
as a game developers they should listen to their community in order to make game better. doing this heavy moderating is wrong, and i understand you completely. I would have felt the same if they did the same to me.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
this must be fairly recently they started acting like this, i know back in the day when the game first came out we did put up constructive criticism of what we thought was bad or good and i dont ever remember getting or anyone else getting any infractions at least if it wasnt cursing or mean spirited talk. but then again mmorpg has given me infractions for saying things that i thought was funny but i guess it depends on how people take thinks honestly and lets face it there is no such thing as freedom of speech anymore in america. its only free if most people agree so just do what i do say what your gonna say and if you get a infraction for it send a reply to whoever gave it to you that basically you dont care.
reminds of a saying in a older movie
"You cant handle the truth" Jack Nicholson- a few good men.
It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn't cover you going to a private forum and saying whatever you want to say.
I might have seen the op's post about rollbacks but I also wonder, if the thread is really gone, how the thread progressed. I saw it there for a bit so perhaps the discussion went awry and that's why they removed it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Freedom of speech does cover you in forums, but the owner of the forum has the right to delete the post or kick you if he/she deems the post offensive.
The forum is in no way controlled by the government but controlled by the company.
-I am here to perform logic
Actually that's a good point, you are correct.
He couldn't get arrested and jailed for speaking his mind but the owner does have the right to remove. Thanks!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Devs don't like to hear the truth about how bad their game really is ? I'm shocked...
I am sorry to say as a 3-1/2 lifer should have known one thing, Lotro DID NOT have PVP. It's PVMP, pvp is player vs. player, and most lotro lifer tended to lying themselves that they were playing pvp. It's pvmp because pvp involves depth class balance which is even more than pvmp.
Why Turbine did not open monster play for F2P? simply because pvmp sucks. The feature is there, but they just work as it is. It is reasonable for Lotro lifer to expecting more value back from the game but it will not be monster play part.
Lotro is a boring and repeatitve but compare with other F2P, I think Lotro still better because no other F2P company can produce a F2P game like lotro, however, it is defined as a F2P now.
I fyou really think there is such a thing as freedom of speech just go up to your boss and tell him what you really think of him and his policies. Or maybe the nextime your wife or gf asks you if that pair of jeans makes her butt look big, be truthful. You can say whatever you want, justy be prepared to suffer the consequences.
Oh and go ahaed and complain about the Pvp all you guys want. if you don't like Turbines implementation by all means go play Darkfall or AoC or some other game with "real pvp". It's p[retty obvious how that wotked out for those games so I doubt if Turbine is going to screw up what can only be deemed a success just for a vocal but overall small percentage of the market.
and before you lable me a whiny carebear , I have played EvE off and on since it's launch including the last 9 months straight. I have been podded more times than I can count. Also my favorite games of all time are DAoC and the original SWG. Open world PvP has it's place in MMO's, just LoTRO is not one of them.
I miss DAoC
First, your criticism of what I called it is silly as I simply called it what anyone unfamiliar with the game would understand it for. Second, if you read my post I said that in the fall they are expanding pvp and allowing f2p into it for free. Third, I wasn't expecting alot from Turbine when it comes to pvmp because of past failed attempts at adding to it (there have been quite a few just not for a couple years) and really when you have game-stopping bugs I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to be fixed at some point. So far, the only reaction they have had is that they were completely unaware of the problems after weeks of complaints about the problem and many many emails and bug reports.
Finally, your statement about lotro being boring and repetitive you kind of show your lack of knowledge about the game since the main part of the game is as polished and well done as I've ever seen it done. Just because I find it boring doesn't keep me from being aware of the great story, content and questing that awaits anyone who gives the game a try.
My problem was with the moderation and lack of info that followed as I am still being moderated without recieving any infractions, bannings or notification of what I did. The original post wasn't around long (maybe 5 minutes) and it was critical of how slowly they react to the customers unless it's to punish.
The censorship (removal) of posts without explanation is wrong. I know it's their game and their forums but are we customers mere pawns in their climb to the top of the game world? Do we have no rights at all? Or are we just cash cows to be milked and processed and kept muted from expressing anything that doesn't glow with praise for the company.
If you feel this is acceptable then there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind but if you feel that as customers we should have some rights or recourse in case of over-moderation then please say so. I've had 4 infractions in 3.5 years but all of them in the last few months. The first was for making a joke that the moderator later admitted he misread but still it was left as is. The last three came all together when I joked (trolled as the mod called it) and another because I said something about being infracted (another no no). The last came right after when I messaged the moderator and broke another rule. Fine, it's their game.
I've been convicted without a trial, without notification of what I did wrong and executed without a thought. I'm sorry but I feel we deserve more that just silence when it comes to interaction with the game company and the tired old axiom, "It's our game, our forums" is starting to sound like an edict that is way past it's time in the history of mmo's especially considering the money we spend supporting their enterprise. How many businesses do you know where you are treated this way? How many would stay in business actiing this way. If I can'y express anything they dont want to hear then the forums are simply a charade to entice new gamers into the fold while they continue to rake in the awards. So then I am forced to find other avenues to express my criticisms which is why I came here. Thanks for reading.
Not to derail your post about Turbines forum policy, but I have seen nothing that suggests pvmp will be free to players in the fall. I believe they stated they are working on a way for F2P players to have access to it which would more then likely mean it can be purchased. If there is clear statements that says pvmp will be completely free I would really appreciate a link.
Thats the impression I got as well, that PVMP will be a premium purchaseable option through the store, and not free at all.
I think that the weak infrastructure the the Lotro PVMP zone has at thsi point with the numerous bugs including the rollback that are happening since F2P release, that they either need to seriously improve all the systems invloved with PVMP ro the influx of Freemium players to the PVP zone will crush whats left of meaningful PVP in Lotro as a whole.
Yea truth always hurts. When you woke up in the morning one day, you were shocked on your discovery, your wife was never so ugly and she is not the one you met at first time. Tell her about that.
Well look, I've been hanging on forums for something like 7 years now (my how time flies!) and I have to say that in all that time I've yet to see a huge amount of player criticism of any game that didn't devolve into a rant.
Also, just becuase you say you "joked" doesn't mean that your joke was appropriate. Granted the moderator said he misread it but I would more than be curious to see these posts you made and what they actually contained. Most people on forums have no clue how to couch their arguments in a more palatable way. Sometimes they come off as rants, sometimes as nasty or inappropriate.
This is not to say they aren't just hacking away posts willy nilly but I've more than enough times seen someone come to a forum complaining about their posts being deleted, them getting warnings and when looking at their posts I would have done the same.
So all we really have is your word that you made a very thorough, non-atacking post. And you might not really realize that what you posted really wasn't going to fly.
As far as deleting posts being "wrong", there is this rather distasteful trend on the interwebz where people feel they can say whatever they want to say whereever they want to say it. Part of this is fed through blogs, twitter, forums, other social media outlets.
So it gives this idea that there is complete freedom with no accountability. Then suddenly one goes to a forum and starts saying whatever they want and when they encounter resistance to their thoughts they are so surprised.
All this is said without really knowing in depth what you wrote. I did read your monster play thread (or a monster play thread) that talked about rollbacks among other things and If it's the same thread you wrote then I'll be honest, it came across as being a bit acusatory and nasty.
Now, you say as consumers we should have rights. You do. You can write the company, tell them what you think of their product and unsubscribe. But as a consumer you just don't have the right to go to a private forum and say whatever you like.
Moderating a forum is not about stifling discourse but it is about keeping the timbre of the forum from becoming a pit of poison. So "how" you present critcisms goes a long way.
Again, if I was reading your actual thread about the issues with monster play then I can say that in my opinion it could have been worded differently in order to keep the conversation going. Because as you've discovered, saying whatever you like in any way you like might be liberating but having it subsequently removed stops the conversation. Stops people from really looking into the issue.
As far as your joking. Did you ever think that maybe it does come across as something that might be seen as trolling? It's like all those people who like to say "I was being sarcastic". Well, just because someeone meant it to be sarcastic doesnt' mean they were successful. Humor can be looked at the same way.
iN any case, this is all theory, we dont' have your posts to look at and really judge and I wouldn't advise posting them here because we don't want you to get in trouble on these forums.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Pretty long time LotRO player here... OP speaks the truth.
I still play the game and have fun/enjoy it but truth is truth. I especially agree about them (turbine) turning into cash milkers and also with the crazy over moderation on the forums(reminds me of some other place I know... hmm >_> <_< >_> *dodges the infraction stick).
I pretty much avoid the official forums now because you'll get slapped from the most innocent and impotent things while there's others going around spreading havoc like a hurricane.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
Well I knew posting this would probably bring more pain but I did what I felt I had to do. The only real problem I have is that they moderated me without a word as to what I did. Before they were quick to point out in the rules how I was violating something and that's understandable. It doesn't matter what I feel about each occurrence nor does anyone have to take my word but it's all I have to work with. By their own rules I should be able to post as I always have and as of today I still can't post anything that will show up even though it says my posts have to be approved. And believe me I haven't tried to post anything that comes close to annoying anyone.
Further, I totally blame myself in this matter as my acid tongue and sarcasm have always got me in trouble but I believe I do it for fun for all and not just me. Of course thats my point of view. I don't expect anything from Turbine except to be able to post if I haven't broken any rules or been banned. At this point I can't send messages privately either as I found out today when I tried to ask S to explain where I stand now as a customer. I planned to come back in the fall (when the pvmp expansion arrives).
So, I am in limbo still.
I had hoped this thread might bring out more situations like mine but that hasn't been the case. So as my new game arrives today this will be my last post here as I don't want to start a flame war. I may love discussions but I don't enjoy insults and slander. (sorry they don't call them insults anymore when they insult you..dont get it but I'm old).
edited for clarity and for my sticky L key.
The answer to all your qestions here is YES. It's a business like any other and, regardless of you being their loyal customer, your negative post on their forum can draw away other potential new subscribers. Tbh being a lifetime subscriber puts you in the worst possible position here because you already gave your money upfront so you're not their primary concern anymore. They need fresh money and its highly unlikely they will squeez it much more out of lifetime subscribers.
I'm not taking their side here because as an SWG vet I know how it feels to be lied and ignored by developer. You just have to accept the fact that this is how it works from their business perspective. MMOs and other games are not run by small teams of enthusiastic programmers anymore. Today managers that have the finaly say in projects' developments are experts in making money and not fixing bugs. If their business plan suggests investing in marketing and keeping forum clean of any negativity (as opposed to listening community and polishing the game) will yield more profit then thats exactly what they'll do.
I know this is just a common sense and nothing that you didn't know already. But from time to time we just have to be reminded. After 3.5 years I guess you got your moneys worth from 2 lifetime subs but in the future its wise not get hyped over MMOs and rather stick to monthly subs instead. As we all know developers are not to be trusted even though fanbois try to convince us ottherwise.
PS
Sry for grammar and other shit. Bad english day.
Actually you don't understand game companies. If you actually enjoyed lotro at the beginning, wanted it to have steady flow of content and planned to stick with it for years, AND had a functional brain, you would never buy a lifetime. Company has to have periodic and regular income from their subscribers if they are expected to pay its development team and add new content.
Free to play, forum moderation, is just a consequence of too many lifetimers. Forum moderation is equal to the amount of new players the game needs. Lifetimers are no longer paying customers basically, they add no real income (apart from the occasional fluff from the shop), THEIR CRITICISM is totally irrelevant. The game has to rely on steady flow of new players -- hence they're maintaining clean and positive forums. You can only blame yourself.
REALITY CHECK
I have played LOTRO off and on myself through the years and came back and played a good bit and even spent store money against my better judgement. I was given a 3day suspension for apparently harassing a player just because I was hunting certain mobs, long before he got there. I wasn't even going out of my kill stealing him at all of any sort, but his words seemed to overpowed mine immediatley.
After this I just never came back and canceled the account, I felt very cheated for actually becoming a member. Lotro has great promise, especially with the PVP as you stated. I hope turbine pulls their thumb out their bum and realises that before they tick off more vets.
TwitchTV: iNeoki
The forum Nazi strikes again. "No forum for you!" "Come back, six months!" I've got a 24 hr. ban on these forums for defending myself from a troll. I told them to roll back to the beginning and see who was the troll and threw the first punch. I got NO reply. SOE started doing the same protectionism when they changed to the NGE and everyone fled to WOW. I look at it as someone with too much power doing their company a disservice because they are in a subscription based business. However they may see it as thinning out the herd. For all you know they have been directed to get rid of the lifers and do not want you all talking to each other and realising youve been targeted for termination. I've seen companies do some dastardly things. I would not doubt this one bit.
nm....I finally got a reply from turbine..
Well after 2 weeks of waiting I finally got a reply from my support ticket and found that I had violated too many forum rules and please don't submit another ticket for one month or face more trouble. Then my private message to the lead mod was answered (I finally figured out I could pm as it's a bug with the forum display that doesn't give you a place to reply until you refresh the message screen). Apparently you can't post a goodbye thread in two places (I don't remember doing it twice) and you can't mention any punishment or talk about any thing to do with moderation or you face further trouble. It's my fault compounded by the lack of a notice from the mods of what I had done wrong leaving me in the dark to what had transpired.
In any event I'm quite happy in my new game and I am still free to play lotro since I have a lifetime sub (barring further transgressions) but posting is out of the question as I have to wait another month to even ask for the lifting of moderation. So Ihave to say I don't feel Turbine was deleting posts critical of their game but just enforcing the many rules of posting on their forums. Still, it's a good game and the forums can be a tricky place to voice a thought.
Update: 3/20/2011
Still being moderated so if I'm lucky a post will show up a few weeks after I post it. S finally told me why my original post was removed and I was placed on moderation without a word: I posted 2 goodbye threads. Now I can't argue with that as I have no memory of doing so and of course the post is gone. I've also found out another thing that you aren't allowed to do:
Never refer to moderation in a post. (never date a post either because that implies moderation).
Once you get on their list it's hard to get off so becareful as forum troubles can lead to game troubles. I've been busy with another game but I plan on playing lotro tomorrow after the patch since they have made some pvp changes. I do miss posting on the forums though and communicating with friends (and enemies). But when you are a hardcore rogue like me that's the price I pay.
I stopped using forums back when I did play the game, never got any warnings... just didn't like the dictator type behavior the mods showed and abuse of power and control.
I stopped playing the game about month after it went f2p and doubt I will ever play it again.
The odd thing is, the way my account was setup and how I had things the f2p barely effected me at all which seemed really nice for a f2p game.
Maybe after seeing this things will get better....
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?