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can a pvp team beat a team that outnumbers it?
Gintoh
Member UncommonPosts: 329
in EVE Online
If they have good player skills and coordination and all that? Can 2 teams that are even and have the same ships/stats and all that but one team has more people and the other team has better coordination can the smaller team win or is it all just stats?
Comments
It happens regularly. Preparedness and Mastery often trump Numbers and Resources.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Definitely a smaller team-oriented unit can win. Now, it may depend what you eman by win. Destroy every opposing ship? Not likely. Make some great kills, get sweet loot, and chase the bad guys away? Definitely. When I played avidly I was with a small group of pirates. We beat larger groups on a regular basis. We beat better equiped groups on a regular basis. But we knew what we were doing and had plans and back up plans. We stalked a while before we engaged and we knew our chokepoints, etc. Find a good group of vets and learn the ropes. Good luck.
Yes it can, here's a fight my corp had the other day:- http://mtass.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8264067 I wasn't at this fight but it was won through better coordination and superior logistics. Before anyone says "boohoo AB HACs are overpowered" those are not AB HACs we don't use those, all the ships there use MWDs.
We are not the best or largest corp around and we have our share of epic fails but that battle report shows than if you think about your gang and work together epic victories are achievable.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
No, it is impossible and has never been done in any game, ever.
On the OP's first example, two teams with same ships, numbers, while rare outside of tournament play or pre-arranged duels player skill at fighting in their ships plays a significant part.
As for smaller teams besting larger teams, absolutely, happens regularly, depends heavily on ship fittings, player skill, element of surprise, etc.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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BestSigEver :P
This happens quite often.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I was in a pvp corp of about 12 members and we had about 5-8 players active at most and we had a corp in faction warfare. We faced up to 30 enemy faction corps ships many times and decimated them.
I wonder about these threads sometimes. It such a vague and obvious answer all at once. If someone runs across the street during rush hour, you think they would get run over by a car? EvE has never been about gear, although as a veteran player now..I do find factional gear and high grade implants were/are a distinct advantage if someone knows how to actually fly their ship the way it's outfitted properly.
Small group/gang warfare has a definite place in EvE. I have almost always found that after people tire of the politics, etc in 0.0 they take their toys and move back to lo-sec. It's in lo-sec that you can find some of the best pvp/small gang warfare in game. Of course, you can find failfits, local smackers, general asshattery as well.
EvE has changed some of their mechanics to slow people down and in turn has been met with much tears and teeth gnashing. Good/patient players adapt. Real old vets/nano monkeys ragequit. Do tactics/planning matter? Yes. I find it has alot to do with location and defintion of "win" as well.
So in closing the answer is yes, and no stats are not that important at all. If you can fit a module and fly the ship..you have a chance.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I disagree, eve has always been about gear. The choice and aquisition of it being very important. Fielding the right ships, fitting the right modules etc.
Your confusion probably comes because efficiency rather than raw stats is important. Paying an arm to gain a razor thin margin of advange isn't helpful.
Eve is a numbers game, but a handful of high sp pilots with isk to burn can field bigger numbers than a larger group of pilots with no isk and sp. Someone with a pointed setup or great intel can rape either and its always possible to win a battle because the enemy makes a huge mistake.
I stand by my statement. Gear plays a role, but not a huge one. A faction webber may have ungodly range, which in turn could be enough to grab you before you can get away. However, you are risking that webber too. I personally find surprise and surroundings very very important. I have traveled through pipes in 0.0 that I had literally 100's of BM's. If you ambushed me, I had at least 5-6 BM's in that system that weren't celestial objects.
On the flip side, if i ambushed you...and we fought to a stalemate or no clear victor was evident and your friends showed up........I could still get away. I think you could qualify that as tactics, but to me it's environment and preplanning. The difference being if we met at the gate i had at least 5-6 escape routes, you don't.
That was the whole nano complaint. Nano's didn't do really any damage, but they could dictate their engagements. Nano's also hunted in packs, therefore increasing their force multiplier. You could qualify that as tactics as well.
Small gang pvp will always be around. Ships can only do so much, no matter how you fit them. People will make stupid mistakes, thus exposing their bellys. Gear really should never decide the outcome of a fight. If you are fighting solo, unless you are the aggressor, you are doing something wrong.
I don't know if tactics will save you from failfits, general misunderstanding of your UI and not knowing how to use your scanner...but I see alot of people complaining about it. T2/T3 ships/gear should be better than T1, so please don't bring that in to the convo. If you are pvp'ing with T1 gear, you are either in a disco fit, worthless fodder in a fleet battle or in RvB.
Let's keep this an intelligent convo about T2/T3/Fact gear fitted pvp fitted ships please. Thanks again.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Watch Clarions Call 1 & 2
These two videos shows that it isn't about numbers nor gear. It's about tactics.
The majority of tactics is about which gear your using...
Stop thinking faction fittings and start thinking ship types and fits and you'll be more inclined to agree with me. An augor cannot "tactic" itself into a guardian. The whole thing about tactics is understanding the limits and powers of the gear you have and using it appropriately.
If you watch clarion call you should be getting how they used logistics and armor tanks(types of gear), how they use triage on carriers(holy shit a specific piece of gear), how they say shoot guys we brought the wrong gear (short range) we're not going to chase the long range gang.
Skill > isk is a very valid argument but the game is at its core about utilizing your ship fittings(gear), you cannot undock with random modules on your ship and expect to kill stuff no matter what the meta level of the items.
@bruto..
I think you and I are agreeing here. Please reread my statement. I watched your vids. I agree that gear matters. I still say it doesn't matter that much. No one can kill someone else by ramming their ships into them. Obviously you have to fit a turret, smartbomb, launcher, nos, something to kill them. I think we are in agreement.
I was simply stating, gear quality isn't/shouldn't be the deciding factor in every battle. Let's say that instead. I was making a point to keep the convo relevant to true PvP fits, and not include nonsensical meta0-1 gear. If you need to reread what I wrote, feel free.
Tactics matter. FoTM fits are common. CCP adjusts ships/mods as it sees fit. I think EW fits are the riskiest. You have to understand your enemies and your ship limitations. A pulse laser will hit anything, but using a tracking disruptor on a gang of drakes is you not understanding your enemy.
Gear quality also matters when you have equal or close to equal skill levels. I find this was more prevelant during the nano days. I mean a set of faction Crystals and blah blah no matter what you fit, it was damn hard to catch them.
You could say that was tactics. I think CCP was justified in changing it. I am just saying it was exploiting a mechanic that some would call tactics.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I really miss the nano days in all honesty, many people will say nanohacs where overpowered but it was great to be able to go for a much larger gang with a handful of nano ships and pick off the guys out of position, more and more its becoming a DPS Vs Tank game with logistics mattering more than EW or speed and agility and that's just less interesting to me.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Partly I have to agree.
Keep on rockin'!
This.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
Awesome vid.
It is just getting on my nerves to see that 'drakes are hot topic internally' while Rifter is fotm for years and recently got ammo and rocket buff on top, not to mention the mess they left in the game after speed nerf.
The balancing team needs to be replaced asap.
I beleive it does happen in eve more often than not.
Though usually its because of superior experience and commanding coupled with the best gear and highest SP characters.
Gear means nothing without experience, and experience can often mean nothing without gear. Together they make for a deadly combination that can easily take on superior numbers.
I beleive AAA are the prime example of this.
The 3 factors I'd look to for winning:
1) Numbers -- how many you bring to the fight is usually the #1 deciding factor.
2) Leadership - good leadership can compensate for larger numbers - to a fair degree but only so far.
3) SP. Numbers will kill SP/actual skill benefits every time.
SP is only really important early on - after that it just expands the options on how you can play but until you reach that point, it is the #1 constraint on what you can do in the game.
Equipment, as you say, is only a primary factor when 2 pilots are approximately even with respect to what they have and usually only when it's close to an even fight -- fairly uncommon events in EVE.
You'll see more "this ship compared to that ship" as if they'd battle 1v1 but that *IS* uncommon. PvP in this game is about gangs jumping soloists/smaller gangs and not about even fights. As such, having a massively expensive fit ship to go on a solo jaunt isn't considered very bright.
@Eleazaros
I absolutely agree. I am was/am/will always say that gear isn't the main deciding factor in PvP in EvE. It helps but is not the #1 deciding factor. It's good to see you are involved in PvP and are posting to tell others that they can too. PvP is an important part of EvE and sp should matter. If you could fly anything, most people would quit within a week. SP keeps your loses to a minimum when you start. If I lose a BS now, it's no big deal. If a brand new player lost a BS to a vet flying a HAC, they would be furious.
I am sick of threads on why new people can't compete with vets. Rookies can't compete in many areas, just like every other mmo out there. However, they CAN compete in PvP, which is unique to EvE. If they train frig/some gunnery/fit a scram/web/ab, and learn to use voice comms..they are ready.
Not many other MMO's i've played can someone on a TRIAL membership actually do anything of significance in battle.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Most definatley on that within weeks of playing.
I wouldn't use the "compete" so much as "contribute" in PvP. It's a fairly major distinction to some and is often overlooked versus all the chatter about "1v1" comparisons of skills and ships.
Being as PvP in EVE centers around teamwork, and at least 1 of the crucial roles for a PvP gang is tackling... It only takes a day or so of training to fly such a ship effectively from the start. If you're working in a team, you contribute what you can to that team and there is "good enough" with respect to tackling. DPS? NEVER ENOUGH! *snicker*
EVE University has some folks who, within a day of joining them, have been in on carrier kills, with support ships for the carriers. That says a bit about how the ability of players at working togehter compares to gear and skill levels -- 20 level 10's in a game like WOW are fodder to a single max level wizard but 20 new players in EVE? That's an actual threat.
I'm rummaging quickly through our killboards to see if I can find some interesting battlereports. Too many kills to really find the one's that stood out. But here's a few I quickly found:
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8001459 gf
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7970096 gf
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7850667 gf
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7806562 gf
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7794696 I remember this one. Epic fight.
http://thenc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7698361
Skills will always win the day in my opinion. Although if you're really heavily outnumbered and the enemy has a significant number of caps on the field they might destroy your structures even though you may kill more of their ships. I only play EVE to blow up stuff so I'm happy either way.