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The Old Republic: "No Auto Attack"
Acreal
Member Posts: 25
I had posted this on the TOR forums in response to the argument that took place about whether or not TOR had an auto attack. To put it bluntly: TOR has no auto attack in the sense that they took out the "white hits" that you see in WoW. Meaning that unless you use an action bar ability, your character won't attack. Combat is more or less the same pace as WoW, it's just that you don't get the white hits in. Realistically, you won't ever notice it in game. But anyway, I thought I would post this here too, and see if anyone has any other insights. I'm not here to argue about TOR's combat, so let's avoid that.
"Hey everybody. I know this thread is more or less dead, but I thought I'd go ahead and put in my two cents here. I'm not going to argue about tank/healer/dps or whether or not this is truly auto-attack or anything like that, so don't worry. I'll start by just laying out the difference between the two systems, and then get into my own opinion about which one I would have preferred:
I see a lot of comments written here saying that TOR has the combat system it does because it's an MMORPG and not a shooter. However, as some have pointed out, MMO action games can, and do, exist. Even within the RPG genre there's a million different combat systems; Baldur's Gate was an RPG and so was Mass Effect, but the combat systems were nothing alike. Likewise, World of Warcraft's combat system is nothing like Vindictus' combat system.
I'm not going to argue that one system is better than another for an MMO. In fact, if done right, both systems can be quite engaging for different reasons:
The WoW system likes to take control of minor actions (shooting, dodging, etc...) away from the player in order to allow said player to make more important decisions about things like crowd control and positioning. This leads to situations where you feel awesome because you hit your CC button, or your heal button, at just the right time and set into motion a chain of events that led to your victory.
The Vindictus system (and yes I am aware that Vindictus is fantasy, and not Sci-Fi, but it is very action oriented, so bear with me here) keeps you in control of the minor actions like blocking and shooting/swinging your sword so that the quick decisions you make about (arguably) smaller things will matter a great deal more. In a system like this, you feel awesome when you dive to the left at just the right moment, narrowly dodging a bullet, only to stand up and throw a grenade right back in the attacker's face.
In the two examples, both rely on strategy, but in a very different kind of way. Neither is any better or worse than the other, but both have their own audiences and what Player A enjoys is not the same thing that Player B enjoys. At the same time, both systems can feel slow or fast, and easy or hard. I've played plenty of both types of games and I can definitely say that both have times when they felt too easy and/or too slow.
What I will say about the two systems, is that when I'm playing with an action-oriented system, I find I watch myself more than anyone else. By that I mean, I find myself thinking “Ah dang. I missed. Man, I suck today.” more often that I think “Wow. Look at this guy's dps! He's freaking terrible!”, if only because in an action-oriented game I don't always feel like I have the time to be looking at everyone else. However, I'm not saying that I never watch anyone else in a game like Counter-Strike and tell them they suck (or own, as the case may be).
Alright so that gets the bland, neutral argument out of the way. Now I get to express my own opinion! Personally, I would have preferred a more FPS/Action-Oriented combat system in TOR, if only because with a system like that, I find myself feeling more attached to my character, and like more of a bad***. Seeing the animation of my character reaching behind him with his lightsaber to block an incoming blaster shot is cool, but it makes me feel good about me when I directly caused that, as opposed to an algorithm rolling a 20 for me. In TOR's case, it looks visually striking, but less engaging.
Additionally, with a slower, more rotation-based (or priority-based) combat system I typically look at my character and see numbers. People ask “How's your character coming along?” and I respond with things like “Pretty good. I've got the hit rating I need, so now I just need to worry about getting more agi and haste.” With a fast-paced system I would instead respond with things like “He's coming along like a BEAST. Seriously, I'm draped in the hides of my dead enemies. I'm not gonna lie; there's some rancor in there.” In the latter, I care more about what I do, and less about how effectively I do it. One system isn't necessarily better (some days I feel like a little min/maxing), but one is more immersive.
My other issue with the combat system in TOR is that it's a bit old at this point. It does things differently, of course, but the main difference between it and WoW's system from what I've seen/read (on a base level, so I'm not worried about skills or animations in this case) is that TOR doesn't have white hits (the attack that's always going once you engage in combat with an enemy). It does mean that unless I hit a skill on my hotbar, I won't do any damage, but it also means that once I do hit that skill, it's all out of my hands. I either hit or miss, get a crit or don't, then damage gets calculated, etc... At that point, there's nothing that I can do personally that will make that attack any more or less effective. In an FPS I could be holding down the attack button to spray while moving the mouse to correct my aim and offset the recoil, or I could fire in short bursts to keep my bullets in a tighter area, etc... In MMO's we just haven't seen enough of the latter. Part of that was due to the restrictions on internet connections and engines (the worst symptom of which was “warping”), but these days we know we can do it, we just don't. The slower system is easier to implement, and like I said, is not necessarily better or worse, but with a game that has lightsabers in it, it would have been nice to backflip up a tree and swing low to cleave an ewok in two..."
Comments
WOOHOO i made it threw!!! i actualy read all of that!! lol
anyway could have been a simple "i think it should have a more engageing combat system"
I can understand where your coming from, but there is at least some strategy invovled in the game. take the smuggler for instance. Usually they are hiding behind cover and have to decide when to attack. If they time it right, they can get off a couple of shots while the other guy is reloading (inbetween attacks)
There is also enemy AI which will "try" to move out of the way, like going behind cover. which may cause your attack to fail. It's not completely action based ala ME but thats just the design they are going for. But you will have to think in battle. It's just more tatical.
But with duck and cover, enemy AI limited range on some attacks and walls being used. It's going to be more then just skill spamming until the enemy is dead.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Pretty much. No real reasoning was given, at least nothing solid.
I dislike the actiony stuff in MMOs, if only because they destroy any sense of progression. It's like in Age of Conan, I actually DREAD leveling up because instead of getting badass new skills I just get to extend my current combos into more complex simon says.
That's terrible for an MMO.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I dislike attacks hitting through objects and auto-tracking. It destroys any sense of players' awareness mattering. It's like in pretty much every MMO, I actually dread leveling up because I know that when I do then I will have no problem whatsoever taking down that mob that I couldn't kill before.
That's terrible for a game.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I agree with the OP.
The action control scheme really makes you feel like its you doing the attacks. The traditional style is more like directing the action. Its a step removed. Action controls bring me closer to the actual action, in other words.
Some games pull it off better than others, and some people dont like this style of gameplay at all, but i enjoy it.
I personally don't care about SW:TOR (sorry, I don't), but I am ALL for action oriented combat in MMOs.
Stuff that "action oriented combat" entails (for me at least):
No auto attack. Its a minor thing but OP basically has it right. Let me add that auto attack does nothing for the actual game experience. It makes the game feel slower. EDIT: GW2 has an "auto use selected skill on cool down" feature to cut down on button mashing. I don't count this as being an auto attack really...it is optional and it is still a skill.
active dodging. Having a hit/dodge chance based on a percentage is pretty dumb in my opinion. It takes away from immersion and makes combat feel very static and rigid to play and even more so to watch.
positioning and movement matter. I play GW1, where kiting is a matter of muscle memory. I tried WoW and kiting didn't work the same and it felt really bad. It promoted standing in one place taking hits and dealing damage, making it a damage versus healing race. very boring for me.
Stuff that "action oriented combat" doesn't entail:
manual aiming. It is hard enough to play games online with some of the problems that players have to face in PvP. Things like warping or bad ping can mess up players, and, while it might make the game fun for some (FPS lovers and twitch combat lovers), it can decrease the fun for others if the game does it wrong (a potential plus can become a huge negative in some cases). While I would like to see manual aiming done to some extent, I don't think its a required for action oriented combat.
huge number of skills. Having a MASSIVE skill bar would detract from playing the game in a strategic manner. games that limit the number of skills on your bar can be much more fun.
+10 points to whoever can guess the game I am looking forward to.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Auto attacking versus clicking? meh. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
I hope it's not one of those games where you constantly have to click with the mouse like D&D online. click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click
The problem with an action oriented attack is that you end up with hand cramps. Imagine doing a hard instance for an hour. What you have done is make at least half the group unable to function properly when you get to the last boss. Games are supposed to be fun, nothing wrong with challenging, but still fun to play. Action oriented just means that people are only going to play for a short time.
You actually use skills just as much in a game like WoW, except you are doing extra damage via auto attacks in between your skill spamming.
You want to see hand cramps? Watch a pro RTS player. No idea how those guys play for hours on end.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Everytime you right click, you attack, there is no autoattack, but the current combat system just means you have to fight.
Anyway the game is in beta and subject to change, for all you know when beta testing expands, people will complain about it and it changes.
NVM, the game is going to fail, there is no auto attack and there is no possible way that could ever be changed in this alpha stage of testing.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
That's no longer necessary in DDO. Actually, I don't recall it ever being necessary. But it's been awhile.
Sorry off topic.
They changed the combat system in DDO?
It's largely the same, but there's an autoattack button. Once you hit it, you'll continue to swing/shoot til' your target is dead.
Wait they have no auto attack in star wars? Lol goes the next big wow opponent down the line.
Don't need an auto attack.
"He's no good to me dead."
Auto attack in most games does minimal to no damage, look at Lotro for example. Doubt most toons can kill a mob 7 levels beneath them using nothing but white damage. Whether there is or will or won't be auto attacks in TOR is irrelevent if the game is balanced properly so that players are able to move at a consistent rate and if the combat is engaging and entertaining. We should know soon enough at least
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Hm.....white hits with a lightsaber..........because we all know most times getting hit with a lightsaber only stings a little.....
Hearing from TOROcast special 2 the combat sounds more tatical. Use a CC to lock down one mob, force push another, strike another a couple of times. Use an ability to majorly damage the CC mob, then finish off the last mob.
In most cases your going to be using the skill tatically not over and over again. Your not going to be hitting 1, 2, 1,3,1,4,1,3
Your going to be using skills depending on what happens. rarely does it sound like your going to be up against the same mob for a long time. (remember the fights don't have you up against a single mob for a long time.)
Most of the people who play the game actually say the combat is actually much more interesting this way. Your not going to be hitting the attack button over and over again. Your going to be using skills that are right for that situation.
Rarely in games do i ever fall back on auto attack. If i do it usually takes forever and thats boring i'm usually auto attacking while skills are on cool down. Here skills are going to be rarely on CD. It's just knowing what to use when.
Think of how DCUO uses their combat system, take out the combo clicking system and replace the combos with a single button. Sorta the same thing (sorta i know it's a bad example but it's the best i can do for now).
In DCUO you come up typically against a few mobs. and you have to figure out how to over come them. Now in DCUO it's usually left mouse button click x 3, hold left mouse button, press 1 to use ability, rinse repeat. It's all that clicking that scare people. In ToR that combo is linked to the 1 button, and your ability is linked to the 2 button (for example).
It's kinda a merge between WoW and DCUO when it comes to combat.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think that this was explained pretty well. There are some differences in SWTOR though, as each class seems to have its own nuances, like reloading for troopers etc. I think that will also change tactics a bit, but for the most part, I'm hoping the system will be relatively close to how you described it and how the videos make it seem. Like they said in one interview, every ability counts you won't have any downtime abilities, every attack you choose to make can change the flow of battle.
I understand where you are coming from, but, to me, it feels that I have no actual control over how combat plays out in a typical MMO. Either I can kill something or I can't. I don't have to worry about positioning, I can't run away if I'm out matched. Things like that take away the fun of playing MMOs for me, and is probably the biggest contributing factor to why I don't play any right now. Not even Fallen Earth, for all its emphasis on twitch/action combat mechanics, does combat with those mechanics properly. You can still get hit with melee attacks when you are visually out of melee range.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
This news makes me want to play this game even more.
Good to hear, but that might mean potential wow players loss, if Bioware is confident with that then all the better, no auto attack (white hits) means better connection to your avatar which means more immersion. From all the upcoming games only Rift seems to be stack in the 2000s generation combat.
So instead of making the combat like WoW (or even the original KOTOR for that matter, which had auto attack), they made the combat like City of Heroes/Villains. I remember back when I used to play that, the dual blades powerset would require you to chain your attacks together in specific combos in order to be effective, and if a mob died in mid combo, you have to gracefully and seamlessly continue the combo on a different one within a couple quick seconds or have to start it over. I don't know if TOR will have a combo system at all, but it sure did add a certain level of skill to regular combat without being 'hand killing' or inaccessible to casual players.
It's not that I'm complaining, I'm just surprised that Bioware would change the control scheme at all from the original "KOTOR Formula".
U have never played kotor my friend there is no auto u choose wahat skills to use and then your char used them if u choose no skill u char doesnt attack I just booted the game up just to make sure i was right.