Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

General: Something Old, Something New

2»

Comments

  • BrialynBrialyn Member Posts: 184

    Well written and well said.  I've been feeling this way for quite awhile and it's nice to see it vocalized :D


    image
    Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
    Looking Forward to: Wildstar
  • BattlestormBattlestorm Member UncommonPosts: 136


    Originally posted by jerlot65
    I was loving this story until it turned for the worse.  You were going great about the fact that the games are not easier or harder, but rather the same formula is being used and hence we gamers are too smart forthe old tricks.  I also agreed with the memory of going for epic items had much more meaning.  In the old days there were few carrots but they were huge.  Devs found out they can entice more people to play and stay in their games if they offered many many small carrots instead.  So yes, more people now play the mmo treadmill cause it is more accessable and easier for them to progress. 
    But this also has a downside.  We no longer can have that epic, almost untouchable, reward that actually means something to gameplay.  Sure people will say "well if your hardcore some games provide VANITY items for your effortss" but that just isnt good enough.  And this is where your article took a turn for the worse.
    Just because you paid the same amount of money does that mean you should get everything handed to you?  You say in your article you dont want us claiming  that you said you want free hand outs but thats what exactly is watering down and makeing these games easier.  Everyone is now on the small fast carrot treadmilland thats great because now more people platy MMO's.  We need to keep that up, but we also need to bring back that "big carrot feel".  I am talking big carrots that mean something.  Big carrots like gear that if somebody see's will know that they shouldn't mess with that guy. And this isn;t just about epeen.  Back in the EQ glory days I wasn;t one of the hardcore.  I didn;t have the best gear.  But you know what?  It didn't matter.  I still ahd fun playing and it actually was pretty cool to see someof the decked out hardcore players and have them give you pointers.
    I guess I just don't get this new generation of gamers. What if we did this same thing in sports?  I mean would anyone be motivated to win if at the end of the season no championship was played and all teams were given a trophy for 1st place?  Did I feel cheated when I paid the same amount(sometimes even more money) then others for football equpiment and camps but didn't make it to the state championships?  I paid the same amount as every other player in the state, where is my trophy?
     
    And yes, I know state trophies don;t give magic abilities that makes the best players even better.  But we are talking video games and giving actual meaniful awards means game enhancing rewards, not some piece of novelty armor for my wall.
     
    Bottom line:  Just becuase you pay  the same for a game doesn't mean you should get every thing in the game.  You play, you compete, you have fun.  Thats was sports, board games, and video games are about.  If all carrots are available for everyone for any kind of game play then players will corner themselves into wahtever small facet of that game that is easiest for them and thats not how the world works nor is that any fun for anyone.


    Thank you.

    /bump

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member UncommonPosts: 3,133

    Hello OP, it's that guy again.

    Surprisingly (for you) I really don't disagree with anything that much in this article. MMOs are easier and more streamlined. THe key problem, as I view it, with that is in that streamlining the devs took out alot of the complexity that existed in those first generation of games.And no, this is not saying that those early games were rocket science. That said, you did have to put a little effort into them to be successful at what content you went after.

    The games today have all but stripped that away. Now everyone can do anything with, realtively speaking, about a quarter of the effort previously. Whether that is measured in time or intelligence it doesn't matter.

    There are no more MMO World Builders in this genre. They are all MMO Game makers. The difference can be seen as in the comparison between chess and checkers. Both are fun games, but chess requires a ton more thought. It, conversely, is played alot less because checkers appeals to the masses who just want to smile but don't want to be bothered much in attaining that smile.

     

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Chavez y Chavez

  • SpentzarSpentzar Member Posts: 5

    I've always been at odds with trying to understand the hardcore crowd. Mainly because most MMORPGs reward you for longevity, not actual player input or skill. Just making things take a long time to accomplish isn't really difficult. Off the top of my head I can't really remember how many mmo's I played. But what I can remember is this scenario which I have encountered over and over and over again:

    Regardless of my travels -both on-rail and off- I will encounter a giant spider.

    Regardless of my level, that spider will always be +2 levels above me.

    Regardless of my array of skills, most of my spells will still miss.

    Regardless of my armor, that spider's hits will still crit.

    Regardless of my class, I will still die -or narrowly escape death-.

     

    There is no personal player input involved. It's spreadsheets and numbers and statistics. When I tell someone about this, usually the first response that I get is that this is a genre thing, and if I don't like it I need to GTFO. There is no skill involved. Your time consuming activity is boorish, and the sooner you admit it, the faster we will get games with more diversified and involving mechanics.

    A lot of games now promote PvP, and a lot of those very same games put in place barriers like special unique skills or consumables or gear for those who PvP. It is in place not because you are rewarded for your skill or effort, but because it helps give an advantage over those who do not pvp. Essentially, I found that both aspects of a game play so similarly that you need special barriers out of your own control in order for one to be better than the other.

    Alternatively, brb watching robot chicken and healing this instance.

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759

    There is a little more detail to hardcore players I think.

     

    For me the journey is the game, which in a MMO mainly means evolving my character.

    This journey needs to be challanging for me to feel satisfaction with my accomplisments.

    As an example, in eq I did the prayer shawl quest which was a 100+ hour questline that undoubtly was repetetive at some points but it also handed me surprices and friends from grouping - When I finally made it the feeling of accomlishment was worth every hour.

    The prayer shawl was also one of the best items in slot for many years.

     

    In WoW as an example of a easy game, you get handed shiny purples on a daily basis and you hardly work for it. Raiding and finally killing a new boss gives moments of satisfaction, and yet that epic is replaced within a month.

     

    What an easy game does is shortening the journey and making it less satisfying (fun), while a hard game challanges you to "work" harder and therefore gives more satisfaction (fun).

     

    There was a point .. yes, the hardcore thing.

    If you buy what you read so far, you agree that it is important for players to have a carrot to chase. One kind of carrot can be a so called hardcore player, that you can look at and say .. one day if I handle myself well, I might be swinging that sword. "Good sir, how can you run that fast?" - "It is because of these special boots" - "How did you get those?" - "I ran the gauntlet, but now I must run" ... gauntlet ? whats that ? could I own those boots? did he (the hardcore geek) just trigger my curiosity? could a handholding game have made me go into this quest with such enthusiasm?

    If a game too easy, then everyone can become the top players, and the value of beeing top player is devaluated for both hardcore and softcore people.

    My point is hardcore players are an important part of a game community, and hardcore players only exist if the game challanges them to do "better" than others.

  • pierthpierth Member UncommonPosts: 1,494

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Hello OP, it's that guy again.

    Surprisingly (for you) I really don't disagree with anything that much in this article. MMOs are easier and more streamlined. THe key problem, as I view it, with that is in that streamlining the devs took out alot of the complexity that existed in those first generation of games.And no, this is not saying that those early games were rocket science. That said, you did have to put a little effort into them to be successful at what content you went after.

    The games today have all but stripped that away. Now everyone can do anything with, realtively speaking, about a quarter of the effort previously. Whether that is measured in time or intelligence it doesn't matter.

    There are no more MMO World Builders in this genre. They are all MMO Game makers. The difference can be seen as in the comparison between chess and checkers. Both are fun games, but chess requires a ton more thought. It, conversely, is played alot less because checkers appeals to the masses who just want to smile but don't want to be bothered much in attaining that smile.

    +1, excellent post

     

    It seems to me that many of the complexities of older MMOs, while not necessarily great in and of themselves, did have a secondary positive effect on gameplay, community, and the overall quality of a playerbase that was willing to stop and think.

  • devacoredevacore Member UncommonPosts: 340

    Originally posted by pierth

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Hello OP, it's that guy again.

    Surprisingly (for you) I really don't disagree with anything that much in this article. MMOs are easier and more streamlined. THe key problem, as I view it, with that is in that streamlining the devs took out alot of the complexity that existed in those first generation of games.And no, this is not saying that those early games were rocket science. That said, you did have to put a little effort into them to be successful at what content you went after.

    The games today have all but stripped that away. Now everyone can do anything with, realtively speaking, about a quarter of the effort previously. Whether that is measured in time or intelligence it doesn't matter.

    There are no more MMO World Builders in this genre. They are all MMO Game makers. The difference can be seen as in the comparison between chess and checkers. Both are fun games, but chess requires a ton more thought. It, conversely, is played alot less because checkers appeals to the masses who just want to smile but don't want to be bothered much in attaining that smile.

    +1, excellent post

     

    It seems to me that many of the complexities of older MMOs, while not necessarily great in and of themselves, did have a secondary positive effect on gameplay, community, and the overall quality of a playerbase that was willing to stop and think.

    If only all these trees weren't in the way; the forest would be a ton easier to see.

    When you say complexity, you mean freedom.

    When you say World Builders, you mean mastery.

    It doesn't matter, nothing really matters (and the guitar solo begins)... point is, I have none.

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member UncommonPosts: 3,133

    Originally posted by devacore

    Originally posted by pierth


    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Hello OP, it's that guy again.

    Surprisingly (for you) I really don't disagree with anything that much in this article. MMOs are easier and more streamlined. THe key problem, as I view it, with that is in that streamlining the devs took out alot of the complexity that existed in those first generation of games.And no, this is not saying that those early games were rocket science. That said, you did have to put a little effort into them to be successful at what content you went after.

    The games today have all but stripped that away. Now everyone can do anything with, realtively speaking, about a quarter of the effort previously. Whether that is measured in time or intelligence it doesn't matter.

    There are no more MMO World Builders in this genre. They are all MMO Game makers. The difference can be seen as in the comparison between chess and checkers. Both are fun games, but chess requires a ton more thought. It, conversely, is played alot less because checkers appeals to the masses who just want to smile but don't want to be bothered much in attaining that smile.

    +1, excellent post

     

    It seems to me that many of the complexities of older MMOs, while not necessarily great in and of themselves, did have a secondary positive effect on gameplay, community, and the overall quality of a playerbase that was willing to stop and think.

    If only all these trees weren't in the way; the forest would be a ton easier to see.

    When you say complexity, devacore assumes only freedom.

    When you say World Builders, devacore assumes only mastery.

    It doesn't matter, nothing really matters (and the guitar solo begins)... point is, I have none.

    Made a small correction to your statement. Normally I avoid changing what others have posted but I loathe when people I have never spoken with before try to put words in my mouth. Next time try asking as opposed to making blind statements. Makes you look less negative , even if you aren't making a point.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Chavez y Chavez

  • devacoredevacore Member UncommonPosts: 340

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Originally posted by devacore


    Originally posted by pierth


    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Hello OP, it's that guy again.

    Surprisingly (for you) I really don't disagree with anything that much in this article. MMOs are easier and more streamlined. THe key problem, as I view it, with that is in that streamlining the devs took out alot of the complexity that existed in those first generation of games.And no, this is not saying that those early games were rocket science. That said, you did have to put a little effort into them to be successful at what content you went after.

    The games today have all but stripped that away. Now everyone can do anything with, realtively speaking, about a quarter of the effort previously. Whether that is measured in time or intelligence it doesn't matter.

    There are no more MMO World Builders in this genre. They are all MMO Game makers. The difference can be seen as in the comparison between chess and checkers. Both are fun games, but chess requires a ton more thought. It, conversely, is played alot less because checkers appeals to the masses who just want to smile but don't want to be bothered much in attaining that smile.

    +1, excellent post

     

    It seems to me that many of the complexities of older MMOs, while not necessarily great in and of themselves, did have a secondary positive effect on gameplay, community, and the overall quality of a playerbase that was willing to stop and think.

    If only all these trees weren't in the way; the forest would be a ton easier to see.

    When you say complexity, devacore assumes only freedom.

    When you say World Builders, devacore assumes only mastery.

    It doesn't matter, nothing really matters (and the guitar solo begins)... point is, I have none.

    Made a small correction to your statement. Normally I avoid changing what others have posted but I loathe when people I have never spoken with before try to put words in my mouth. Next time try asking as opposed to making blind statements. Makes you look less negative , even if you aren't making a point.

    Yes, thank you khalathwyr.

    I actually enjoy your writing Isabelle Parsley.  I just jest, thus I summarized (ever-more tempting carrots)and found a video for people who have no attention span... I find most times you post; many people don't really see the true meaning behind your article.  All that intelligence but no appreciation.  It's kind of sad if you think about it.

  • drake_hounddrake_hound Member Posts: 773

    Happy New year Isabella , Anyway as always a fun article to read.

    Even if you admit halfway you totally change on the topic .

     

    About the hardcore , well its what the younger generation wants .

    The problem with younger generation that its affecting the older generation .

    Instead of different way around , hardcore to the younger generation means something .

    In a world where there is nothing to achieve , the time is wasted the younger generation .

    Rather have a illusion of achievement or rank or group they belong too .

    Now you can say its the older generation that maintains it , not true , infact its the older generation adopting the HARDCORE philosophy , thats the root of problems .

    Even nowadays the trolling are being adapted by the older generation .

    While the younger generation invented the nowadays annoying  trolling (old way of trolling was something witty and funny ) ;We the older generation pick it up faster .

    HARDCORE no longer means a no life , thats already outdated in 2006-2007.

    Hardcore is the standard people measure to time invested , if you told me back in 1998 that i would be playing 20+ hours a week in a game , I would declare you insane , i mean i worked 40+ hours , nowadays 20+ hours a week gaming time, isn´t even special anymore.

    So what differs from the hardcore and casual gamers , is dedication almost religious fanatisme to a certain product aside from the time invested .

    Thats what younger generation calls hardcore , its not only playing a product but almost acknowledging it as a way of life .

    But again thats my view , and I might be wrong and steer a hornet nest like always .

    But thats my perception of how the word hardcore changed .

Sign In or Register to comment.