Originally posted by Einherjar_LC "This is what they are about TO YOU. -Jodokai That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here. This is what true RPG's are and always have been. These are the basis of todays MMORPG's. I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone. If these people don't like the ideals behind what true RPG's are then perhaps they should be playing the games you mentioned among others and quit trying to change every MMORPG they play into something it's not supposed to be. I don't play FPS games and then complain that they aren't RPG's. These people should quit coming into the RPG's and complaining they aren't more like console games. I have no problem with people wanting to play differently, but why does that have to come at the expense of my enjoyment? That's ok I guess, huh? But if we complain, we get told shut up and let others play the way they want, and quit putting your values on others. I guess how we want to play doesn't matter. Infringing on our playstyle all you want is ok. Who's dictating to who how to play again?
If you're going to respond to my posts I do ask that you read if first.
Now tell me how if I go buy a +11 Holy Defender from Ebay, how did that effect your Role Playing experience? It doesn't. So ebayers don't effect your game at all, so why try to effect theirs?
"That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here" Says who? You know Gary Gygax personally or are you just coming up with your conclusions? This is NOT what they are to me, I've already described what I think an RPG is and it has NOTHING to do with loot or XP or leveling up. Some of the best times I've ever had was in SWG when I already had the best weapons and armor in the game and my template was maxed out. I had some of the best Role-Playing experiences ever. See this is what an RPG is to me, taking on the role of a character and telling a good story. This is what I think RPG's have always been for. The whole loot, XP, leveling up thing is only important in a game, not an RPG (or if it is, then you haven't had very good GM's).
No one is coming here saying "Buy from ebay, you HAVE to play that way", yet you're telling people not to, it's not the way the game is supposed to be played. You ARE telling others how to play, and if you can explain to me how someone buying something from ebay effects you then I might agree, but you can't tell me that because it doesn't effect you at all.
Originally posted by Rekindle For those looking for differences between SOE and Blizzard's game have a look at the stance of Blizzard on the sale of ingame propery for IRL $$ vs SOE. One company supports it and has encouraged it and the other feels its not good for the game, wrecks the economy and is not a good idea.
Below is a snipet I found from Blizzard;s site. ------------- It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly states that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.
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EQ Fanbois, light your torches and flame away....the truth hurts.
This is the exact same stane SOE took with EQ for four years. Your point lacks real depth or any research. Blizzard isnt doing anything big and new with the defense of digital items that they can't control, so they'll go after the obvious sellers and ban the buyers.
This place is full of tree-huggers and tofu fartn' faeries...
.... the status quo that you seem to pine for will have been preserved. What's your beef with the new service then? Is it that Sony is recognizing at least 25% of their players don't get the idea of an RPG?
The only status quo that I'm interested in is the continued enforcement of rules against things like SE, IGE, Yantis, Ebay. Although another step that would help deter sales of items would be to ban the idiots that are taking up 40% up CS time complaining they got scammed. Embracing these "players" when the only clear reason I can see is to get a cut of the money is ridiculous. SoE couldn't care less about its community where this is involved, even though that's the face they are trying to put on it. The only reason they care about that 25% is because they think they can make even more money from them. Making money is not a bad thing and I realize that's why companies are in business, but when a company compromises one of it's core policies that has been in place for years, by doing a complete 180 just to make money, it really leaves a bad taste in many peoples mouths.
My "beef" is that this service sets a bad precedent in the industry as a whole.(Nevermind that SoE is glancing over nearly half of the people playing the game currently that don't want to be involved in it and many of the ones that don't care only feel this way because it won't initially be on their servers). If this is successful, then more games, now and in the future, will incorporate this or something more encompassing. Sales of items or content directly from the developer comes to mind. SoE is practically doing that now with the adventure packs. For $4.99USD you can access this set of dungeons. The shift from ingame accomplishments through time invested to ingame accomplishments through real life monetary investment takes away from the mystique of the game, and diminishes the accomplishments of those that did take the time. The game fails being a game and begins being a wealth-o-meter where the guy with the most cash will nearly always have the upper hand.
Will this happen for sure? Of course no one really knows, it's just my opinion. But the fact that the door may be open to these kinds of developments in the future is enough to cause for concern for myself and many others.
People want a fair playing field, or at least the perception of. By bringing money into the equation, you destroy that perception by essentially saying it's fair...if you have enough money to keep up.
And another thing, I suppose you NEVER EVER ONCE bended the rules playing D&D. RIGHT! We've all had our full-on psionic groups just for the hell of it. At least, I would venture to say many PnP players had at least a few fun runs with rules bent or ignored altogether.
Nope, sorry. I'm starting to think I may be in the minority here, but I play the games within the rules designed for them. This includes things like cheatcodes, gamesharks, TPA's, or anything that falls outside of the rules. I don't cheat. I play these games to take on the challenge presented within by the designers. If there is not enough challenges, or the game does not hold my interest, I move on. Period. I don't complain to the developers that it isn't to my liking so they change the game and screw the rest of the people that do like it.
For something like SE to be considered successful IMO, it would have to significantly remove the "alternative playstyle" people from the fair play servers. I don't see that happening though, because even though there is an avenue being created for these types of things to take place, there is no real incentive or for the sellers because they will still have demand on the fair play servers. Nothing to deter them from continuing their activities unless enforcement of the EULA is stepped up significantly. All this effectively does is create more servers for companies like IGE to make even more money, and SoE to get a cut. If it does work and SoE is able to remove the few remaining "alternative playstyle" people from the fair play servers I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
As it stands now though, their enforcement is unable to reliably remove them from the fairplay servers for more than a day or 2. That is one of the reasons people are so skeptical about the "it'll help things on the regular servers" reasoning.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
"That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here" Says who? You know Gary Gygax personally or are you just coming up with your conclusions? This is NOT what they are to me, I've already described what I think an RPG is and it has NOTHING to do with loot or XP or leveling up. Some of the best times I've ever had was in SWG when I already had the best weapons and armor in the game and my template was maxed out. I had some of the best Role-Playing experiences ever. See this is what an RPG is to me, taking on the role of a character and telling a good story. This is what I think RPG's have always been for. The whole loot, XP, leveling up thing is only important in a game, not an RPG (or if it is, then you haven't had very good GM's).
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It has nothing to do with knowing Gary Gygax. It's in black and white in the manuals. I suppose it's open to some personal interpretation, but when you get down to the basics of it, those are the core elements of the RPG as it was in the beginning.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the XP and loot aspect of this debate. I think we both agree it's about much more than that. Adventuring experiences and developing your character can take on many forms other than XP and loot. Your scenario earlier in the thread was a great example of this, but oversimplifies things in my opinion. Just because having stories to tell is what's most important to you in an RPG doesn't mean the other core elements of an RPG don't exsist. They might not be the most meaningful to you, like having stories to tell, but they are there none the less.
You say that a maxed character on SWG was some of the best fun you've ever had. Did you not enjoy getting your character to that point? Did your character not evolve and have great experiences along the way? Didn't you have to roll a character to start with? These are those core elements at work. Again, it may not be what it's "about" to you, but it is an engrained part of the genre that goes back to the beginning and is a part of nearly every RPG.
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Now tell me how if I go buy a +11 Holy Defender from Ebay, how did that effect your Role Playing experience? It doesn't. So ebayers don't effect your game at all, so why try to effect theirs?
....
No one is coming here saying "Buy from ebay, you HAVE to play that way", yet you're telling people not to, it's not the way the game is supposed to be played. You ARE telling others how to play, and if you can explain to me how someone buying something from ebay effects you then I might agree, but you can't tell me that because it doesn't effect you at all.
If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you. I guess I'll try this to see if it will spark anything.
Where do you think people get these items that you buy from ebay? They farm spawns for hours on end, sometimes KS'ing and griefing, making it difficult for legit players to hunt the area. They ruin quests camping the boss mobs for the loot just so they can get another item to sell. Some set up macros or bots so they can essentially monopolize a spot, farming it 24/7 preventing "live" players from accessing certain content.
Are you saying that these types of behavior and others associated with it don't affect my gameplay or anyone elses?
And one more time, I am not telling anyone how to do anything. The rules are set in place by the developers(unless they think they can make a profit, then they change the rules). They are telling you how to play their game. All I am asking is that people play within the rules set forth in the game. That is in general and not specific to EQ2.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I like EQ2. Quite a bit is a matter of fact. I think it is a great game and I enjoyed it immensely.
This is the reason I am so disappointed to see something like SE go live. I simply don't agree with the move to SE and I like the game enough to voice my concern.
If I didn't care, I would have just gone quietly to another game.(and some would have probably prefered that )
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
It'll be an interesting experiment in economics, I think. But, I don't know what kind of impact it will have in the long run. There will still be people that want to buy gold, or items on the regular servers, and so the farmers will still be there.
The most interesting thing about this will be the impact, or lack thereof, on CS responce times, as this was touted as one of the main causes of CS tickets, which it is. But if there isn't a noticable improvement in responce times after the changes... well, I would want to be a moderator on their official forums.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the XP and loot aspect of this debate
Actually this is my point. I think you were too hung up on XP and loot being part of the RPG experience. Hence my examples of why I don't feel it is. If you do agree that it isn't that important, they why do you disagree with ebayers? Does it really matter how the aquired their gear?
Right to me how someone aquired an item or gained a level is irrelevant to me, as long as we can tell a good story. I can spin tales of how I aquired all my items, and the adventrues I went though to get them, but who knows besides me if my stories are true or not? In character I describe a group of us defeating the Golgotha and looting a +11 Holy Defender it was keeping in it's horde to make sure no one used it against it's evil spawn...In reality I might have bought it off ebay, but the people I just told that tale to had theirgame enriched (hopefully) by my role-playing.
This really falls into my point. Different things are important to different people. What is important to you isn't to me. This is why there should be both ways of playing the game. The ebay style and the non-ebay.
If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you.
Then I guess the debate is over, because I can prove to you that buying items doesn't ruin the economy. How, can I prove it you ask? Well I'm glad you did: EQ1 has been out for over 6 years. The buying and selling items on ebay has been going on about that long, for EVERY game that has come out, and not one economy has been ruined. As far as farming, which is different than the buying or selling on ebay and not everyone who sells on ebay farms. I wholeheartedly agree that this should be punnished, and so does SOE. They even state this in their press release and posts.
The whole "it will ruin the economy" is a popular one for what I call the "Vanilla Ice Effect" that happens when MMO communities "rise up" against ebayers. I'm not sure if I've gone into it or not on this thread, but to summerize, everyone hates ebayers, but when asked why, no one can come up with a valid reason. To support their hatred they try the "it will ruin the economy" argument.
The other great excuse for the "Vanilla Ice Effect" is exactly your other argument: The "It's not fair/is an unfair advantage" argument. Well I submit to you that if you play for more than 20 hours a week, you have an unfair advantage over me becasue my job/responsibilites only allow me to play 20 hours a week. I think MMO's should only allow peple to play 20 hours a week so it's fair for everyone. Then they should only allow 1 type of computer, because anyone that has a better rig will have an unfair advantage.
So my final question to you is: Do you not like the practice of ebaying because it's against the rules? If so, the rules are changing, so now people who do this WILL be following the rules, do you still have a problem with it?
**DISCLAIMER** EEinherjar_LC, I hope you're not getting offended by any of this or upset. I am really enjoying this debate, and find it nice that someone can debate intelligently about it without the thread turning into "I'm right you're a stupid-head.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the XP and loot aspect of this debate Actually this is my point. I think you were too hung up on XP and loot being part of the RPG experience. Hence my examples of why I don't feel it is. If you do agree that it isn't that important, they why do you disagree with ebayers? Does it really matter how the aquired their gear? Right to me how someone aquired an item or gained a level is irrelevant to me, as long as we can tell a good story. I can spin tales of how I aquired all my items, and the adventrues I went though to get them, but who knows besides me if my stories are true or not? In character I describe a group of us defeating the Golgotha and looting a +11 Holy Defender it was keeping in it's horde to make sure no one used it against it's evil spawn...In reality I might have bought it off ebay, but the people I just told that tale to had theirgame enriched (hopefully) by my role-playing. This really falls into my point. Different things are important to different people. What is important to you isn't to me. This is why there should be both ways of playing the game. The ebay style and the non-ebay. If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you. Then I guess the debate is over, because I can prove to you that buying items doesn't ruin the economy. How, can I prove it you ask? Well I'm glad you did: EQ1 has been out for over 6 years. The buying and selling items on ebay has been going on about that long, for EVERY game that has come out, and not one economy has been ruined. As far as farming, which is different than the buying or selling on ebay and not everyone who sells on ebay farms. I wholeheartedly agree that this should be punnished, and so does SOE. They even state this in their press release and posts. The whole "it will ruin the economy" is a popular one for what I call the "Vanilla Ice Effect" that happens when MMO communities "rise up" against ebayers. I'm not sure if I've gone into it or not on this thread, but to summerize, everyone hates ebayers, but when asked why, no one can come up with a valid reason. To support their hatred they try the "it will ruin the economy" argument. The other great excuse for the "Vanilla Ice Effect" is exactly your other argument: The "It's not fair/is an unfair advantage" argument. Well I submit to you that if you play for more than 20 hours a week, you have an unfair advantage over me becasue my job/responsibilites only allow me to play 20 hours a week. I think MMO's should only allow peple to play 20 hours a week so it's fair for everyone. Then they should only allow 1 type of computer, because anyone that has a better rig will have an unfair advantage. So my final question to you is: Do you not like the practice of ebaying because it's against the rules? If so, the rules are changing, so now people who do this WILL be following the rules, do you still have a problem with it? **DISCLAIMER** EEinherjar_LC, I hope you're not getting offended by any of this or upset. I am really enjoying this debate, and find it nice that someone can debate intelligently about it without the thread turning into "I'm right you're a stupid-head.
It ruins the economy if SOE makes it legal....
A very small fraction of MMORPG gamers actually buy from IGE, or ebay or whatever. This "Vanilla Ice" Effect is a bunch of crap. The majority of experienced and talented players will agree that most ebayers are too inexperienced the the certain game they are playing to play the level 50 whatever they just bought. They cause alot of group wipes (and yes i know group wipes happen when they are not there, everyone makes mistakes). If you are in a group with an ebayed cleric, as opposed to a person who earned and knows how to play a cleric, your chance of survival and fun is MORE than doubled.
Though I a not really againsed the SOE exchange, because most of the gold farmers will move to the SE only server. Leaving the regular servers clear of their type of scum.
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired-- -- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations) -- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard Explorer 66% Socializer 60% Killer 53% Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Actually this is my point. I think you were too hung up on XP and loot being part of the RPG experience. Hence my examples of why I don't feel it is. If you do agree that it isn't that important, they why do you disagree with ebayers? Does it really matter how the aquired their gear
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To an extent Jodokai yes it matters, but that is not the whole picture. Because when there is a level playing field(read-not being able to purchase things), then that is how players measure their success amongst their peers. It matters because X player succeded in figuring out quest A where player B has not yet. That being said, it is not an exclusive part of these games. There are many other variables that contribute to the overall feeling of success.
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If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you. I guess I'll try this to see if it will spark anything.
Where do you think people get these items that you buy from ebay? They farm spawns for hours on end, sometimes KS'ing and griefing, making it difficult for legit players to hunt the area. They ruin quests camping the boss mobs for the loot just so they can get another item to sell. Some set up macros or bots so they can essentially monopolize a spot, farming it 24/7 preventing "live" players from accessing certain content.
Are you saying that these types of behavior and others associated with it don't affect my gameplay or anyone elses?
And one more time, I am not telling anyone how to do anything. The rules are set in place by the developers(unless they think they can make a profit, then they change the rules). They are telling you how to play their game. All I am asking is that people play within the rules set forth in the game. That is in general and not specific to EQ2.
Nicely done glancing over this entire part of my post explaining how this type of activity ruins things for legit players which you specifically requested yet totally ignored.
Either you missed this point, or completely don't get it? Which is it? This is what you asked for. What is your rebuttle?
The whole "it will ruin the economy" is a popular one for what I call the "Vanilla Ice Effect" that happens when MMO communities "rise up" against ebayers. I'm not sure if I've gone into it or not on this thread, but to summerize, everyone hates ebayers, but when asked why, no one can come up with a valid reason. To support their hatred they try the "it will ruin the economy" argument.
And you are the one asking me to please read your posts?
Valid reasons have been given over and above the ones you cite, yet people like yourself overlook those and choose the ones most easily to defend. The ingame economy is only one facet of the debate, but those really interested in debating already realize that.
This really falls into my point. Different things are important to different people. What is important to you isn't to me. This is why there should be both ways of playing the game. The ebay style and the non-ebay.
That's fine as long as it falls withing the rules of the game. You still cannot rebutt the fact that these games draw their core elements and rules from their predcesors and as such, deviating from them to the extent of SE flies in the face of the spirit of RPG's as they originated.
So my final question to you is: Do you not like the practice of ebaying because it's against the rules? If so, the rules are changing, so now people who do this WILL be following the rules, do you still have a problem with it?
I have explained repeatedly why I am against it. And I am the one being questioned on reading comprehension? The only reason the rules have changed is because the one changing them thinks they stand to make a profit. So changing the rules because you stand to profit from said changing makes it right?
Am I the only one that see's a fault in that reasoning?
But back to my basic point. I gave you the examples you asked for of how this would/could affect the normal gamer and you didn't respond.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Originally posted by Bobiin It ruins the economy if SOE makes it legal.... A very small fraction of MMORPG gamers actually buy from IGE, or ebay or whatever. This "Vanilla Ice" Effect is a bunch of crap. The majority of experienced and talented players will agree that most ebayers are too inexperienced the the certain game they are playing to play the level 50 whatever they just bought. They cause alot of group wipes (and yes i know group wipes happen when they are not there, everyone makes mistakes). If you are in a group with an ebayed cleric, as opposed to a person who earned and knows how to play a cleric, your chance of survival and fun is MORE than doubled. Though I a not really againsed the SOE exchange, because most of the gold farmers will move to the SE only server. Leaving the regular servers clear of their type of scum.
I beleive your wrong on just about every point you made. For one, there is no economy. In order for there to be an economy as I have stated before there has to be a finite amount of gold in the game. This is no tthe case, there is always a very infinite amount of gold in the game, with time anyone can make any amount of money WITHOUT earning it from another player in the game.
And I highly doubt the farmers will move to the Exchange servers, odds are they will merely "expand" their services to those branches as well or not bother with them at all and keep going business as usual. Fact is this attempt by Sony will probably change VERY little. The regular servers will still have the "scum" as you put it because there is still money to be made there. You really beleive they are just gonna pack up shop and say "oh, ok, we can go sell there now." and not continue business for those on the other servers that didn't move because they didn't want to start over and those that really had no idea what it was all about when they made their first toon and are not on an exchange server? You really think people will break friendships and leave a server just to get onto the exchange server when they know they can just get it from IGE? If you do, your rather nieve.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
My biggest question is: Say I buy some piece of gear on an SE server. What happens when a month or two later SOE decides to nerf said piece of gear? Will I be able to demand a refund since I no longer have the item I paid for? My guess is they'd just say "tough nookie", and send me back on my way, but the first time something of that sort happens, they're going to have a pretty big mess on their hands in the forums and such.
But it will make for some entertaining reading, either way.
The only other example you have given is the attitude of the farmer, and I did respond. I've said I don't agree with this and neither does SOE. They have said they will take action against the farmers, but it also has NOTHING to do with the people that buy the stuff on ebay. I've also said not everyone who sells farms. Not only that but this only effects the gold and items. The people selling accounts don't farm or effect anyone else on their rise to level 50. Which really makes this argument invalid. If I missed something else, let me know.
So if I understand you correctly, you don't like ebayers because of people that farm? That is going on right now in game, how will the Station Exchange change that? It will still be "illegal" on most servers, so it's not like people who weren't doing it before will start now, and anyone who does want to buy things can move their character to server where it's "legal".
Vanilla Ice Effect is crap, yet the only argument you can wage against it is team wipes? Chances are if you're not smart enough to realize the healer doesn't know what their doing early on, you were going to wipe anyway. I'd also be willing to bet that NO ONE could say with all certainty that this has happened to them.
The only other example you have given is the attitude of the farmer, and I did respond. I've said I don't agree with this and neither does SOE. They have said they will take action against the farmers, but it also has NOTHING to do with the people that buy the stuff on ebay. I've also said not everyone who sells farms. Not only that but this only effects the gold and items. The people selling accounts don't farm or effect anyone else on their rise to level 50. Which really makes this argument invalid. If I missed something else, let me know.
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Agree or not, simple logic dictates that sellers are a direct result of the wanting buyers. As such they both adversely affect mine and others gaming as a whole. You are being deliberately obtuse if you don't realize that and the affect it has on the playerbase. As I pointed out earlier about the enforcement, it is marginal at best. No sooner do they ban them and a few more pop up. SE will do nothing to deter the current farmers.
So if I understand you correctly, you don't like ebayers because of people that farm? =====================================================
I don't care for either in my RPG's. As I pointed out, one is a direct result of the other and as such directly affects mine and others gaming experiences.
That is going on right now in game, how will the Station Exchange change that? It will still be "illegal" on most servers, so it's not like people who weren't doing it before will start now, and anyone who does want to buy things can move their character to server where it's "legal".
Exactly my point. It will not change a thing as there is no substantial disincentive currently on the fairplay servers, but this has been one of the arguments used in favor of the SE. I call it the "magic bullet" theory - the idea that once the SE servers go live all the farmers and buyers will magically and completely move off the fairplay servers to the ones where their "alternative playstle" is accepted. It's a ridiculous leap of logic to to say the least. In the end, the only thing SE will change is the number of servers they have to farm on.
Vanilla Ice Effect is crap, yet the only argument you can wage against it is team wipes? Chances are if you're not smart enough to realize the healer doesn't know what their doing early on, you were going to wipe anyway. I'd also be willing to bet that NO ONE could say with all certainty that this has happened to them.
I never said anything about team wipes, but it is far from the only argument against in this thread. It may be the only one you give credit to but that doesn't mean the others arguments weren't valid.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
So you're saying that EC won't solve the problem of farmers, which while I agree the problem will never be gone, I do think it will be lessened, but it's not going to make the problem worse either. So why not let the people that want to play by buying things on ebay play that way? Your game isn't effected by it anymore than it is now, so what can it hurt? Nothing changes for you. SOE will still go after the people that do it on non-EC severs as much as they are now, and they will still go after the farmers as much as they are now, so if the only thing that changes is that some of the buyers can go to a server where they don't have to worry about being banned, how is this "a bad thing"?
The argument that starting to offer the SE and take the money away from IGE and Yantis is some sort of moral failure is just not valid.
Those without morals are already playing the game. The suggestion that they be banned for not playing the way you think is valid is ridiculous.
The suggestion that this behavior will "spread" to regular servers is like saying that people who play on full-on PvP servers and gank players will bring that behavior to the regular servers too. That won't happen. It also ignores the fact that they already DO play on regular servers. In other words the danger of this happening has already been realized, and therefore it's not anything to be afraid of.
Taking the moral high ground is quaint. It does nothing to solve the problem but stroke your own ego. I'm glad Sony is taking the road less travelled and meeting the issue head-on, even if it requires getting their hands dirty.
It's just like sex in high school and jr. high. Apparently you'd rather have Sony teach abstinence while we all catch AIDS. I'm glad they decided to pass out condoms instead.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
Comments
Now tell me how if I go buy a +11 Holy Defender from Ebay, how did that effect your Role Playing experience? It doesn't. So ebayers don't effect your game at all, so why try to effect theirs?
"That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here"
Says who? You know Gary Gygax personally or are you just coming up with your conclusions? This is NOT what they are to me, I've already described what I think an RPG is and it has NOTHING to do with loot or XP or leveling up. Some of the best times I've ever had was in SWG when I already had the best weapons and armor in the game and my template was maxed out. I had some of the best Role-Playing experiences ever. See this is what an RPG is to me, taking on the role of a character and telling a good story. This is what I think RPG's have always been for. The whole loot, XP, leveling up thing is only important in a game, not an RPG (or if it is, then you haven't had very good GM's).
No one is coming here saying "Buy from ebay, you HAVE to play that way", yet you're telling people not to, it's not the way the game is supposed to be played. You ARE telling others how to play, and if you can explain to me how someone buying something from ebay effects you then I might agree, but you can't tell me that because it doesn't effect you at all.
This place is full of tree-huggers and tofu fartn' faeries...
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.... the status quo that you seem to pine for will have been preserved. What's your beef with the new service then? Is it that Sony is recognizing at least 25% of their players don't get the idea of an RPG?
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The only status quo that I'm interested in is the continued enforcement of rules against things like SE, IGE, Yantis, Ebay. Although another step that would help deter sales of items would be to ban the idiots that are taking up 40% up CS time complaining they got scammed. Embracing these "players" when the only clear reason I can see is to get a cut of the money is ridiculous. SoE couldn't care less about its community where this is involved, even though that's the face they are trying to put on it. The only reason they care about that 25% is because they think they can make even more money from them. Making money is not a bad thing and I realize that's why companies are in business, but when a company compromises one of it's core policies that has been in place for years, by doing a complete 180 just to make money, it really leaves a bad taste in many peoples mouths.
My "beef" is that this service sets a bad precedent in the industry as a whole.(Nevermind that SoE is glancing over nearly half of the people playing the game currently that don't want to be involved in it and many of the ones that don't care only feel this way because it won't initially be on their servers). If this is successful, then more games, now and in the future, will incorporate this or something more encompassing. Sales of items or content directly from the developer comes to mind. SoE is practically doing that now with the adventure packs. For $4.99USD you can access this set of dungeons. The shift from ingame accomplishments through time invested to ingame accomplishments through real life monetary investment takes away from the mystique of the game, and diminishes the accomplishments of those that did take the time. The game fails being a game and begins being a wealth-o-meter where the guy with the most cash will nearly always have the upper hand.
Will this happen for sure? Of course no one really knows, it's just my opinion. But the fact that the door may be open to these kinds of developments in the future is enough to cause for concern for myself and many others.
People want a fair playing field, or at least the perception of. By bringing money into the equation, you destroy that perception by essentially saying it's fair...if you have enough money to keep up.
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And another thing, I suppose you NEVER EVER ONCE bended the rules playing D&D. RIGHT! We've all had our full-on psionic groups just for the hell of it. At least, I would venture to say many PnP players had at least a few fun runs with rules bent or ignored altogether.
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Nope, sorry. I'm starting to think I may be in the minority here, but I play the games within the rules designed for them. This includes things like cheatcodes, gamesharks, TPA's, or anything that falls outside of the rules. I don't cheat. I play these games to take on the challenge presented within by the designers. If there is not enough challenges, or the game does not hold my interest, I move on. Period. I don't complain to the developers that it isn't to my liking so they change the game and screw the rest of the people that do like it.
For something like SE to be considered successful IMO, it would have to significantly remove the "alternative playstyle" people from the fair play servers. I don't see that happening though, because even though there is an avenue being created for these types of things to take place, there is no real incentive or for the sellers because they will still have demand on the fair play servers. Nothing to deter them from continuing their activities unless enforcement of the EULA is stepped up significantly. All this effectively does is create more servers for companies like IGE to make even more money, and SoE to get a cut. If it does work and SoE is able to remove the few remaining "alternative playstyle" people from the fair play servers I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
As it stands now though, their enforcement is unable to reliably remove them from the fairplay servers for more than a day or 2. That is one of the reasons people are so skeptical about the "it'll help things on the regular servers" reasoning.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
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"That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here"
Says who? You know Gary Gygax personally or are you just coming up with your conclusions? This is NOT what they are to me, I've already described what I think an RPG is and it has NOTHING to do with loot or XP or leveling up. Some of the best times I've ever had was in SWG when I already had the best weapons and armor in the game and my template was maxed out. I had some of the best Role-Playing experiences ever. See this is what an RPG is to me, taking on the role of a character and telling a good story. This is what I think RPG's have always been for. The whole loot, XP, leveling up thing is only important in a game, not an RPG (or if it is, then you haven't had very good GM's).
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It has nothing to do with knowing Gary Gygax. It's in black and white in the manuals. I suppose it's open to some personal interpretation, but when you get down to the basics of it, those are the core elements of the RPG as it was in the beginning.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the XP and loot aspect of this debate. I think we both agree it's about much more than that. Adventuring experiences and developing your character can take on many forms other than XP and loot. Your scenario earlier in the thread was a great example of this, but oversimplifies things in my opinion. Just because having stories to tell is what's most important to you in an RPG doesn't mean the other core elements of an RPG don't exsist. They might not be the most meaningful to you, like having stories to tell, but they are there none the less.
You say that a maxed character on SWG was some of the best fun you've ever had. Did you not enjoy getting your character to that point? Did your character not evolve and have great experiences along the way? Didn't you have to roll a character to start with? These are those core elements at work. Again, it may not be what it's "about" to you, but it is an engrained part of the genre that goes back to the beginning and is a part of nearly every RPG.
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Now tell me how if I go buy a +11 Holy Defender from Ebay, how did that effect your Role Playing experience? It doesn't. So ebayers don't effect your game at all, so why try to effect theirs?
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No one is coming here saying "Buy from ebay, you HAVE to play that way", yet you're telling people not to, it's not the way the game is supposed to be played. You ARE telling others how to play, and if you can explain to me how someone buying something from ebay effects you then I might agree, but you can't tell me that because it doesn't effect you at all.
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If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you. I guess I'll try this to see if it will spark anything.
Where do you think people get these items that you buy from ebay? They farm spawns for hours on end, sometimes KS'ing and griefing, making it difficult for legit players to hunt the area. They ruin quests camping the boss mobs for the loot just so they can get another item to sell. Some set up macros or bots so they can essentially monopolize a spot, farming it 24/7 preventing "live" players from accessing certain content.
Are you saying that these types of behavior and others associated with it don't affect my gameplay or anyone elses?
And one more time, I am not telling anyone how to do anything. The rules are set in place by the developers(unless they think they can make a profit, then they change the rules). They are telling you how to play their game. All I am asking is that people play within the rules set forth in the game. That is in general and not specific to EQ2.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Just for the record to the people I'm debating.
I like EQ2. Quite a bit is a matter of fact. I think it is a great game and I enjoyed it immensely.
This is the reason I am so disappointed to see something like SE go live. I simply don't agree with the move to SE and I like the game enough to voice my concern.
If I didn't care, I would have just gone quietly to another game.(and some would have probably prefered that
)
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
It'll be an interesting experiment in economics, I think. But, I don't know what kind of impact it will have in the long run. There will still be people that want to buy gold, or items on the regular servers, and so the farmers will still be there.
The most interesting thing about this will be the impact, or lack thereof, on CS responce times, as this was touted as one of the main causes of CS tickets, which it is. But if there isn't a noticable improvement in responce times after the changes... well, I would want to be a moderator on their official forums.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the XP and loot aspect of this debate
Actually this is my point. I think you were too hung up on XP and loot being part of the RPG experience. Hence my examples of why I don't feel it is. If you do agree that it isn't that important, they why do you disagree with ebayers? Does it really matter how the aquired their gear?
Right to me how someone aquired an item or gained a level is irrelevant to me, as long as we can tell a good story. I can spin tales of how I aquired all my items, and the adventrues I went though to get them, but who knows besides me if my stories are true or not? In character I describe a group of us defeating the Golgotha and looting a +11 Holy Defender it was keeping in it's horde to make sure no one used it against it's evil spawn...In reality I might have bought it off ebay, but the people I just told that tale to had theirgame enriched (hopefully) by my role-playing.
This really falls into my point. Different things are important to different people. What is important to you isn't to me. This is why there should be both ways of playing the game. The ebay style and the non-ebay.
If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you.
Then I guess the debate is over, because I can prove to you that buying items doesn't ruin the economy. How, can I prove it you ask? Well I'm glad you did: EQ1 has been out for over 6 years. The buying and selling items on ebay has been going on about that long, for EVERY game that has come out, and not one economy has been ruined. As far as farming, which is different than the buying or selling on ebay and not everyone who sells on ebay farms. I wholeheartedly agree that this should be punnished, and so does SOE. They even state this in their press release and posts.
The whole "it will ruin the economy" is a popular one for what I call the "Vanilla Ice Effect" that happens when MMO communities "rise up" against ebayers. I'm not sure if I've gone into it or not on this thread, but to summerize, everyone hates ebayers, but when asked why, no one can come up with a valid reason. To support their hatred they try the "it will ruin the economy" argument.
The other great excuse for the "Vanilla Ice Effect" is exactly your other argument: The "It's not fair/is an unfair advantage" argument. Well I submit to you that if you play for more than 20 hours a week, you have an unfair advantage over me becasue my job/responsibilites only allow me to play 20 hours a week. I think MMO's should only allow peple to play 20 hours a week so it's fair for everyone. Then they should only allow 1 type of computer, because anyone that has a better rig will have an unfair advantage.
So my final question to you is: Do you not like the practice of ebaying because it's against the rules? If so, the rules are changing, so now people who do this WILL be following the rules, do you still have a problem with it?
**DISCLAIMER**
EEinherjar_LC,
I hope you're not getting offended by any of this or upset. I am really enjoying this debate, and find it nice that someone can debate intelligently about it without the thread turning into "I'm right you're a stupid-head.
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
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Actually this is my point. I think you were too hung up on XP and loot being part of the RPG experience. Hence my examples of why I don't feel it is. If you do agree that it isn't that important, they why do you disagree with ebayers? Does it really matter how the aquired their gear
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To an extent Jodokai yes it matters, but that is not the whole picture. Because when there is a level playing field(read-not being able to purchase things), then that is how players measure their success amongst their peers. It matters because X player succeded in figuring out quest A where player B has not yet. That being said, it is not an exclusive part of these games. There are many other variables that contribute to the overall feeling of success.
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If you don't realize how buying things screws up a game, its economy, and eventually ruins it for the non-buying players there really isn't much more I can debate with you. I guess I'll try this to see if it will spark anything.
Where do you think people get these items that you buy from ebay? They farm spawns for hours on end, sometimes KS'ing and griefing, making it difficult for legit players to hunt the area. They ruin quests camping the boss mobs for the loot just so they can get another item to sell. Some set up macros or bots so they can essentially monopolize a spot, farming it 24/7 preventing "live" players from accessing certain content.
Are you saying that these types of behavior and others associated with it don't affect my gameplay or anyone elses?
And one more time, I am not telling anyone how to do anything. The rules are set in place by the developers(unless they think they can make a profit, then they change the rules). They are telling you how to play their game. All I am asking is that people play within the rules set forth in the game. That is in general and not specific to EQ2.
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Nicely done glancing over this entire part of my post explaining how this type of activity ruins things for legit players which you specifically requested yet totally ignored.
Either you missed this point, or completely don't get it? Which is it? This is what you asked for. What is your rebuttle?
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The whole "it will ruin the economy" is a popular one for what I call the "Vanilla Ice Effect" that happens when MMO communities "rise up" against ebayers. I'm not sure if I've gone into it or not on this thread, but to summerize, everyone hates ebayers, but when asked why, no one can come up with a valid reason. To support their hatred they try the "it will ruin the economy" argument.
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And you are the one asking me to please read your posts?
Valid reasons have been given over and above the ones you cite, yet people like yourself overlook those and choose the ones most easily to defend. The ingame economy is only one facet of the debate, but those really interested in debating already realize that.
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This really falls into my point. Different things are important to different people. What is important to you isn't to me. This is why there should be both ways of playing the game. The ebay style and the non-ebay.
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That's fine as long as it falls withing the rules of the game. You still cannot rebutt the fact that these games draw their core elements and rules from their predcesors and as such, deviating from them to the extent of SE flies in the face of the spirit of RPG's as they originated.
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So my final question to you is: Do you not like the practice of ebaying because it's against the rules? If so, the rules are changing, so now people who do this WILL be following the rules, do you still have a problem with it?
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I have explained repeatedly why I am against it. And I am the one being questioned on reading comprehension? The only reason the rules have changed is because the one changing them thinks they stand to make a profit. So changing the rules because you stand to profit from said changing makes it right?
Am I the only one that see's a fault in that reasoning?
But back to my basic point. I gave you the examples you asked for of how this would/could affect the normal gamer and you didn't respond.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I beleive your wrong on just about every point you made. For one, there is no economy. In order for there to be an economy as I have stated before there has to be a finite amount of gold in the game. This is no tthe case, there is always a very infinite amount of gold in the game, with time anyone can make any amount of money WITHOUT earning it from another player in the game.
And I highly doubt the farmers will move to the Exchange servers, odds are they will merely "expand" their services to those branches as well or not bother with them at all and keep going business as usual. Fact is this attempt by Sony will probably change VERY little. The regular servers will still have the "scum" as you put it because there is still money to be made there. You really beleive they are just gonna pack up shop and say "oh, ok, we can go sell there now." and not continue business for those on the other servers that didn't move because they didn't want to start over and those that really had no idea what it was all about when they made their first toon and are not on an exchange server? You really think people will break friendships and leave a server just to get onto the exchange server when they know they can just get it from IGE? If you do, your rather nieve.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
My biggest question is: Say I buy some piece of gear on an SE server. What happens when a month or two later SOE decides to nerf said piece of gear? Will I be able to demand a refund since I no longer have the item I paid for? My guess is they'd just say "tough nookie", and send me back on my way, but the first time something of that sort happens, they're going to have a pretty big mess on their hands in the forums and such.
But it will make for some entertaining reading, either way.
The only other example you have given is the attitude of the farmer, and I did respond. I've said I don't agree with this and neither does SOE. They have said they will take action against the farmers, but it also has NOTHING to do with the people that buy the stuff on ebay. I've also said not everyone who sells farms. Not only that but this only effects the gold and items. The people selling accounts don't farm or effect anyone else on their rise to level 50. Which really makes this argument invalid. If I missed something else, let me know.
So if I understand you correctly, you don't like ebayers because of people that farm? That is going on right now in game, how will the Station Exchange change that? It will still be "illegal" on most servers, so it's not like people who weren't doing it before will start now, and anyone who does want to buy things can move their character to server where it's "legal".
Vanilla Ice Effect is crap, yet the only argument you can wage against it is team wipes? Chances are if you're not smart enough to realize the healer doesn't know what their doing early on, you were going to wipe anyway. I'd also be willing to bet that NO ONE could say with all certainty that this has happened to them.
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The only other example you have given is the attitude of the farmer, and I did respond. I've said I don't agree with this and neither does SOE. They have said they will take action against the farmers, but it also has NOTHING to do with the people that buy the stuff on ebay. I've also said not everyone who sells farms. Not only that but this only effects the gold and items. The people selling accounts don't farm or effect anyone else on their rise to level 50. Which really makes this argument invalid. If I missed something else, let me know.
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Agree or not, simple logic dictates that sellers are a direct result of the wanting buyers. As such they both adversely affect mine and others gaming as a whole. You are being deliberately obtuse if you don't realize that and the affect it has on the playerbase. As I pointed out earlier about the enforcement, it is marginal at best. No sooner do they ban them and a few more pop up. SE will do nothing to deter the current farmers.
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So if I understand you correctly, you don't like ebayers because of people that farm? =====================================================
I don't care for either in my RPG's. As I pointed out, one is a direct result of the other and as such directly affects mine and others gaming experiences.
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That is going on right now in game, how will the Station Exchange change that? It will still be "illegal" on most servers, so it's not like people who weren't doing it before will start now, and anyone who does want to buy things can move their character to server where it's "legal".
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Exactly my point. It will not change a thing as there is no substantial disincentive currently on the fairplay servers, but this has been one of the arguments used in favor of the SE. I call it the "magic bullet" theory - the idea that once the SE servers go live all the farmers and buyers will magically and completely move off the fairplay servers to the ones where their "alternative playstle" is accepted. It's a ridiculous leap of logic to to say the least. In the end, the only thing SE will change is the number of servers they have to farm on.
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Vanilla Ice Effect is crap, yet the only argument you can wage against it is team wipes? Chances are if you're not smart enough to realize the healer doesn't know what their doing early on, you were going to wipe anyway. I'd also be willing to bet that NO ONE could say with all certainty that this has happened to them.
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I never said anything about team wipes, but it is far from the only argument against in this thread. It may be the only one you give credit to but that doesn't mean the others arguments weren't valid.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
The last paragraph wasn't to you Einherjar.
So you're saying that EC won't solve the problem of farmers, which while I agree the problem will never be gone, I do think it will be lessened, but it's not going to make the problem worse either. So why not let the people that want to play by buying things on ebay play that way? Your game isn't effected by it anymore than it is now, so what can it hurt? Nothing changes for you. SOE will still go after the people that do it on non-EC severs as much as they are now, and they will still go after the farmers as much as they are now, so if the only thing that changes is that some of the buyers can go to a server where they don't have to worry about being banned, how is this "a bad thing"?
The argument that starting to offer the SE and take the money away from IGE and Yantis is some sort of moral failure is just not valid.
Those without morals are already playing the game. The suggestion that they be banned for not playing the way you think is valid is ridiculous.
The suggestion that this behavior will "spread" to regular servers is like saying that people who play on full-on PvP servers and gank players will bring that behavior to the regular servers too. That won't happen. It also ignores the fact that they already DO play on regular servers. In other words the danger of this happening has already been realized, and therefore it's not anything to be afraid of.
Taking the moral high ground is quaint. It does nothing to solve the problem but stroke your own ego. I'm glad Sony is taking the road less travelled and meeting the issue head-on, even if it requires getting their hands dirty.
It's just like sex in high school and jr. high. Apparently you'd rather have Sony teach abstinence while we all catch AIDS. I'm glad they decided to pass out condoms instead.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain