Flying mounts make the world seem small and trivial to me.
Only if the world is already small IMO. I never had that feeling in Vanguard or WoW. In fact it made the world seem larger because of the view distance and how much I was able to see.
Kind of like what Aion does (although their flight is even more limiting in a lot of areas).
I just wish they would start puting in features for mounts other than faster speed.
I never played AION, but I thought it was more about gliding there?
But yes, mounts needs to be handled better. Sadly is AoC the only MMO that even tried a little.
One can fly longer in the abyss and can top off one's flight time with potions or increase flight time with gear.
Out of the abyss there are areas where one can fly but they have a somewhat shorter flight time though one can increase it as above. Otherwise one can glide places.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Flying mounts make the world seem small and trivial to me.
Only if the world is already small IMO. I never had that feeling in Vanguard or WoW. In fact it made the world seem larger because of the view distance and how much I was able to see.
WoW is the example I was going to use ironically. The game world isn't small but the ability to travel so fast with hearths, teleports and flying mounts take out any sense of danger and exploration to me. So while the world isn't small it just feels tiny to me.
I never understood the argument againts mounts and flying mounts, especially from people who love sandbox games. I get what people say about how travel should be an adventure but i dont see how players having any type of mount stop that. Just because mounts are in the game it in no way stops you personally from traveling on foot from one place to another . I never got the mindset to wanting more open gameplay but at the same time wanting restrictions on other gamers gameplay. What may be fun for you to repeat over and over is another persons grind.. annoying grind at that. Should there be extra rewards from foot travel yes there is . you do more fighting gain more experience, earn more equipment and supplies needed for jobs things someone would not get by bypassing an area.
So once you earn the right to fast travel i think you should get it weither its way points, warps, mounts etc so long as you did missions travel through areas , did outside missions to earn the mount then the more power to ya im all for it. And if you decide you want to just journey and travel on foot because thats how you enjoy the game thats good to. The more open ways to play the better. Also the more people that you will get to play a game. Forceing to slow travel is just as restricting as forcing to pvp ,pve have certin jobs etc. Forcing all others to play your way makes a very boring game.. especially for a mmo
It is not that only we want to do it, I (Me) want it to be a general rule which everyone has to follow. But then again no current game is currently designed to make traveling fun IMO.
But thats pretty much saying the same thing. You dont want to do it but you want it as a rule were others cant do it either. That just makes no sence to me. Its like saying " I dont like red cars, I think people tend to drive faster and cause more traffic violations with red cars so i think it just be a general law that nobody should be allowed to own a red car". Instead of doing what most insurence carriers do is but a higher payment on red sports cars but do not block it because of a personal opinion. Especially when what someone else is doing does not effect your game play directly. Play your game and let others play there. If you and a group of others like playing by certin rules thats what guilds are for but making it a general rule that someone has to play your way is only restrictions on game play. The one big draw mmos have over other game types is less resrictions on game play.
The fast travel between already visited cities which are near each other isn't that bad, but traveling the entire world in one portal trip destroys the fabric of fun for me.
Grind is the last thing I want though ;p.
I get that and agree that needless grind can be terrible , but what is "grind" to me repeating areas over and over again is just as grindy hell some cases more grindy than killing bumble bees over and over. Its the same thing " Get to point A repeat action X for a time limit until completed save and do again later" . I can understand how it can take away the fun from you but if i want to get somewere especially some were i already been i do not want to have to take repeated grindy steps to do so. Even if i have to pay a fee for travel thats fine but being forced to repeat a area over and over for " adventures sake " alone will get me out of a game really fast. That area is always there when im in an aventuring mood but if i have completed it before and have earrned the right to travel over it no matter how long the distance i should be able to do so.
I have walked throught every place possable in wow even with travel options cause i wanted to see the game but i did it cause either it was my first time through and i had to or cause i simply wanted to see the world point is fast travel does not stop aventruing hell it adds to it , it gets more areas seen all the time.
MMO should have multiple game play options and made for mutiple styles , you take that away you take away a big part of what makes mmos and the open world concept great you just end up haveing repeated levels repeated over and over again.
Personally i think its up to the developers to had more the the travel types, hell sometimes malfunctions with portals during events, mounted battles, sick mounts, attacks in the air, random blocking events. summoned directly into battels , stamina bars travel pay etc, there are a lot of options that could be added to it or expanded on thatswhere i think the problem lies. Taking away options for a open world game is always a bad idea
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
I think mounts should be used for travel and combat only. If there is mounted combat I would hope that the mechanics are not Wow like. Where you point your character in a direction and run and spam the attack button. I think a good starter mechanic for mount combat would be used for an opener. For an example, you charge at your opponent and you get to use 1-3 abilities within in a time frame. The ground combatant would have to stay in one place while the mounted combatant would charge in a straight line. If the mounted combatant has a successful hit he can go back and stay mounted. A miss or an unseccessful hit which would conclude into a knock off the mount. Essentially a 1v1 mini game for pve or pvp.
I like what vanguard did with mounts. You could armor them so you wouldn't get knocked off. However there were penatlities in which your movement was hindered by the barbed dressing on the horses. I think mounts should have several states. I would consider mounts a secondary character. Those states would conclude, HP, Stamina, Strength, Fear and Agility.
Stamina would be essentially like a mana bar. Once the stamina runs out, depending on how long distances or how fast you run it it depletes faster or slower. Strength for how strong the mount can hold on to the rider while in combat. Fear would be what types of environments they can travel through easier. For an example, I don't think a horse would travel through a swamp. Agility would be how well does the mount dodge attacks by mobs in environmental or even enironmental hazards or in combat. I think each mount should have HP. If you gear up your mount that HP increases. I think mounts should die since characters die as well. The only way to let the mounts HP regenerate is through rests.
I think with that idea in mind, players can be more strategic of when they use their mounts instead of being automobiles with legs or wings. I believe that would balance out the use of mounts, both flying and ground and also the adventure on foot.
I just went on a spill and I think I may use that idea for my game design doc lol.
I agree with that (and actually wrote a lot more about it already on page 1).
Mounted combat is really a great idea if you do it right and the reason no MMO have lances yet (to my knowledge at least) is a mystery to me.
But I think there should be several limits to using mounts. In the real world you use them on roads and fields, in the forest it is risky and in the jungle, swamp or similar it is impossible.
Allowing the character to only have one mount on him/her at the same type makes sense (let there be a stable outside town where you can change).
And make it possible but a bad idea to use the mount in a terrain where it isn't intended (A huge tiger can probably run fine in the forest but have a lot less stamina). Make it a chance that the animal get hurt if you use it in the wrong place and gets a cooldown for one hour, the chance should depend how reckless the player was. Full sped in a swamp can only lead to disaster.
Than you add lances, horse attacks and exchange the players attacks like I said in my first post. Armor for mounts is a good idea as well, together with hitpoints and the possibility to take the mount out (not permanently).
Also mount speed should be based on the terrain, and the same goes for stamina loss. Using a road is is fast and not that hard.m Running on a field is almost as fast but uses a bit more stamina. A forest is still slower and have the chance for an accident.
Having mounts as a rather fast way between cities as long as you use the road is not a bad idea (but since it is a lot easier you could run into outlaws). allowing people to use them all the time everywhere just makes your gameworld smaller.
And of course there should be chariots (and sledges in snowy places), both for war and to caravan stuff from place A to B for profit. An Egyptian style war chariot would be really nice in the right terrain.
And some minigames with mounts is fun as well. Horse races, roman styled chariot races and jousting would add to the fun, betting should of course be included.
But I certainly agree that if the intent of a piece of content (such as the Haunted Forest) is to be a chunky obstacle to overcome, that allowing flying in that situation is a bad design.
Personally I'd be fine without flying mounts as long as I don't waste time traveling -- that's all I care about: avoiding wasted time.
I want to spend my time playing the game. Retracing the path through the Haunted Forest isn't me playing the game: it's the game playing me. The first 1-3 times through the forest are great, but honestly a waypoint system where I can instantly teleport to any place I've "Discovered" is the best system (Diablo 2 waypoints basically; WOW's flightpaths are similar, but still involve an awkward amount of travel time.)
Removed the first line from your post because it's a completely baseless assumption presented as fact.
Not all players are looking for a hand-holding lobby game. There are many out there that still prefer an open world that has more depth than what you seek. You act like games with no downtime, complications, or time-consuming mechanics can possibly be as fulfilling as games that are streamlined with no downtime and completely accessible to the lowest common denominator of player.
I guarantee you that games that require more effort in fulfilling goals have more fulfilling goals. Not all players seek mindless whackamole gameplay.
To go back to the OP's post, I completely disagree with flying mounts- they are an abuse of the game world and completely negate the risk vs reward of travel and exploration. It inspires and rewards thoughtless, lazy players.
Baseless? Hardly. Your inability to recognize that games without stinging death penalty sell better across all genres of games doesn't make my claim baseless.
Nothing about any of what I've posted constitutes "hand-holding". It constitutes "my time is valuable; don't waste it".
I don't act like those games can't be fulfilling. I act like those games aren't desirable to the majority of players, myself included. Most players value games more than worlds. Interesting, accessible gameplay patterns combined with social interactions makes a good MMORPG.
Excessive punishment provides the tiniest bump in adrenaline, at the cost of a huge likelihood of shoving away playerbase.
It may be exciting to visit your friend who sometimes beats you up and leaves you at the side of the curb, but after a while most people start to question whether that's a friendship or not. Maybe it's best to spend time with the friends who result in interesting interactions instead?
My statements are based in very clear, obvious, and observable patterns in which games people pursue. Consider opening your eyes to what people actually enjoy, and you'll see I'm right to claim that "most players" don't enjoy games with stinging penalty -- because they very obviously don't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But I certainly agree that if the intent of a piece of content (such as the Haunted Forest) is to be a chunky obstacle to overcome, that allowing flying in that situation is a bad design.
Personally I'd be fine without flying mounts as long as I don't waste time traveling -- that's all I care about: avoiding wasted time.
I want to spend my time playing the game. Retracing the path through the Haunted Forest isn't me playing the game: it's the game playing me. The first 1-3 times through the forest are great, but honestly a waypoint system where I can instantly teleport to any place I've "Discovered" is the best system (Diablo 2 waypoints basically; WOW's flightpaths are similar, but still involve an awkward amount of travel time.)
Removed the first line from your post because it's a completely baseless assumption presented as fact.
Not all players are looking for a hand-holding lobby game. There are many out there that still prefer an open world that has more depth than what you seek. You act like games with no downtime, complications, or time-consuming mechanics can possibly be as fulfilling as games that are streamlined with no downtime and completely accessible to the lowest common denominator of player.
I guarantee you that games that require more effort in fulfilling goals have more fulfilling goals. Not all players seek mindless whackamole gameplay.
To go back to the OP's post, I completely disagree with flying mounts- they are an abuse of the game world and completely negate the risk vs reward of travel and exploration. It inspires and rewards thoughtless, lazy players.
Baseless? Hardly. Your inability to recognize that games without stinging death penalty sell better across all genres of games doesn't make my claim baseless.
Nothing about any of what I've posted constitutes "hand-holding". It constitutes "my time is valuable; don't waste it".
I don't act like those games can't be fulfilling. I act like those games aren't desirable to the majority of players, myself included. Most players value games more than worlds. Interesting, accessible gameplay patterns combined with social interactions makes a good MMORPG.
Excessive punishment provides the tiniest bump in adrenaline, at the cost of a huge likelihood of shoving away playerbase.
It may be exciting to visit your friend who sometimes beats you up and leaves you at the side of the curb, but after a while most people start to question whether that's a friendship or not. Maybe it's best to spend time with the friends who result in interesting interactions instead?
My statements are based in very clear, obvious, and observable patterns in which games people pursue. Consider opening your eyes to what people actually enjoy, and you'll see I'm right to claim that "most players" don't enjoy games with stinging penalty -- because they very obviously don't.
Your statements are very obvious and clear- that much I agree with. Again, another post backing up your opinion that the majority want an easy, shallow experience with... more opinions. Way to prove your point.
The vast majority of posts you make always assume (with zero proof) that the majority of gamers prefer this type of gameplay, which you've never substantiated- even if the majority of posters in those threads disagree. Number one, popularity does not equal quality or enjoyment. Let's take WoW for instance- because I know you love that one. It would be easy and extremely ignorant to say that it's what the majority of players want because they have vastly more subs reported. The 12 million number is a figment, it constitutes nothing. When they release how many western accounts they have for unique individuals (not just people with multiple accounts) then that would be a number I'd pay attention to.
What these posts really come down to is that you don't enjoy anything more complex than a console game, and because of that want MMOs to follow suit- and of course because you feel this way then the majority of gamers do as well.
Who is to say what punishment constitutes excessive? Oh, you again. I forgot that you are the premier knowledge base of what the majority of MMO gamers want, you may even be their poster child!
The sad thing is, I can see where this is all heading- years down the line WoW will have seemed "hardcore" because MMOs will just devolve into farmville style games- because those are popular, right? They are accessible and that's what the majority of players want! Players don't want to have to put effort towards a game! They don't want any repercussions because they are poor at playing the game! All players deserve to achieve in games just by showing up, and pushing a button every so often. No one should ever argue against this because it's what the majority wants, then the rest of us should just blindly consume as well.
Well, I as a MMORPG gamer disagree. We deserve more meaningful and well thought out gameplay that is developed with keeping players responsible for what they do and say in even one out of a dozen releases instead of just accepting simplistic, shallow, anonymous gameplay for the ADHD generation.
Flying mounts completely ruin the game. Terrain becomes wortless - all the little flowers, high grass and all the small pretty things become irrelevant. No one travels by feet, no one cares about these small things - everyone just hops to the air and flies from point A to point B.
The game loses that magic feel to the world. You stop feeling like you're in a real fantasy world.
I know most part of todays mmo generation, who only cares about aquiring huge spiky shoulders, don't care for the "magic feel" to the world.
I like having a way to travel faster. It should be gated by a milestone you have to reach, but walking for 30 minutes to get somewhere in a game isn't my cup of tea anymore.
I made a thread a few weeks back about "MMORPG's are in dire need to go back to it's roots" and that is damn true. Because the console kids think they know what a real mmo rpg is. Wouldn't the first mmorpgs determine what a real mmorpg is? Since they was the first?
Its obvious that there are two factions of mmo gamers. Post Wow and Pre Wow. This does not neglect the different style of mmos such as themepark or sandbox. It's merely the philosophy behind the mmos before and after wow. Plain and simple. There is a massive niche of old school mmo gamers who want that meaninful world again.
I appreciate the support- it's not like I think all of the way EQ and DAOC did things were the exact right way to do it, nor the only way to do it, however it's very clear to see that today's MMOs aren't merely streamlining the classics. They are outright gutting them. I also know that there will always be timesinks of some sort and accept that- it's the only way developers can keep players playing between content patches or expansions.
The thing that gets me is, today the only lure they seem to use is itemized by weapons, armor, or fluff items that don't even make sense within the lore of the game a good chunk of the time. Instead, why not slow down leveling and make that content meaningful instead of rushing to endgame where they run out of content? Why not create expansions where instead of making each dungeon a tier ago a complete faceroll, develop a multifaction system as in Velious? I'm not even going to get into asking why they continually taint the possibility of forging good communities by removing all interdependence from players until endgame. There are good, solid gameplay mechanics from older games that expand the play hours of a game just by releasing content that the playerbase doesn't go through like a woodchipper. Not only would it keep players interested in what's there longer but it'd also give the companies time to spend on the new content so as not to have to rush it out with needless bugs.
Again, I'm not even saying that no MMOs should have solo content, but I'd be far happier if even one a year, or even every other year got mechanics similar to FFXI, EQ1, DAoC, or COH. I'd also love to see a game with as much variance in crafting (as well as noncombat "classes") like SWG- however I cannot say more for that game as I never played it. It's just frustrating to see developers and production companies taking the quick money grab route to creating these games and enticing the playerbase with shiny graphics and the newer generation just accepting it wholeheartedly because they are too ignorant to know any better, and only have stories of past games to try to enlighten them to something different instead of having those actual games to try.
It seems like people are basically saying that it more depends on the game-design purpose of the mount, rather than the actual functionality of flying itself. That is the game was designed to be walked around in, then obviously having a flying mount breaks that design. I never thought of it that way before.
So a good question would then be, what are some good game/level-design scenarios which would be best suited for a ground mount? Or alternatively, some good designs that would fit a flying mount perfectly?
I'm also intrigued by the idea of having another layer of gameplay around mounts and combat. Is anyone aware of any game that does mounted combat real well? In a way that could work in an MMO of course.
I never understood the argument againts mounts and flying mounts, especially from people who love sandbox games. I get what people say about how travel should be an adventure but i dont see how players having any type of mount stop that. Just because mounts are in the game it in no way stops you personally from traveling on foot from one place to another . I never got the mindset to wanting more open gameplay but at the same time wanting restrictions on other gamers gameplay. What may be fun for you to repeat over and over is another persons grind.. annoying grind at that. Should there be extra rewards from foot travel yes there is . you do more fighting gain more experience, earn more equipment and supplies needed for jobs things someone would not get by bypassing an area.
So once you earn the right to fast travel i think you should get it weither its way points, warps, mounts etc so long as you did missions travel through areas , did outside missions to earn the mount then the more power to ya im all for it. And if you decide you want to just journey and travel on foot because thats how you enjoy the game thats good to. The more open ways to play the better. Also the more people that you will get to play a game. Forceing to slow travel is just as restricting as forcing to pvp ,pve have certin jobs etc. Forcing all others to play your way makes a very boring game.. especially for a mmo
It is not that only we want to do it, I (Me) want it to be a general rule which everyone has to follow. But then again no current game is currently designed to make traveling fun IMO.
But thats pretty much saying the same thing. You dont want to do it but you want it as a rule were others cant do it either. That just makes no sence to me. Its like saying " I dont like red cars, I think people tend to drive faster and cause more traffic violations with red cars so i think it just be a general law that nobody should be allowed to own a red car". Instead of doing what most insurence carriers do is but a higher payment on red sports cars but do not block it because of a personal opinion. Especially when what someone else is doing does not effect your game play directly. Play your game and let others play there. If you and a group of others like playing by certin rules thats what guilds are for but making it a general rule that someone has to play your way is only restrictions on game play. The one big draw mmos have over other game types is less resrictions on game play.
The fast travel between already visited cities which are near each other isn't that bad, but traveling the entire world in one portal trip destroys the fabric of fun for me.
Grind is the last thing I want though ;p.
I get that and agree that needless grind can be terrible , but what is "grind" to me repeating areas over and over again is just as grindy hell some cases more grindy than killing bumble bees over and over. Its the same thing " Get to point A repeat action X for a time limit until completed save and do again later" . I can understand how it can take away the fun from you but if i want to get somewere especially some were i already been i do not want to have to take repeated grindy steps to do so. Even if i have to pay a fee for travel thats fine but being forced to repeat a area over and over for " adventures sake " alone will get me out of a game really fast. That area is always there when im in an aventuring mood but if i have completed it before and have earrned the right to travel over it no matter how long the distance i should be able to do so.
I have walked throught every place possable in wow even with travel options cause i wanted to see the game but i did it cause either it was my first time through and i had to or cause i simply wanted to see the world point is fast travel does not stop aventruing hell it adds to it , it gets more areas seen all the time.
MMO should have multiple game play options and made for mutiple styles , you take that away you take away a big part of what makes mmos and the open world concept great you just end up haveing repeated levels repeated over and over again.
Personally i think its up to the developers to had more the the travel types, hell sometimes malfunctions with portals during events, mounted battles, sick mounts, attacks in the air, random blocking events. summoned directly into battels , stamina bars travel pay etc, there are a lot of options that could be added to it or expanded on thatswhere i think the problem lies. Taking away options for a open world game is always a bad idea
Agreed. The problem is repetition of areas to travel over nad over again. To this one problem, there are multiple solutions, you can just go by adding flying mounts or portals.
But you can also make the areas not repeat (The environment changing similar to GW2 dynamic events), you can have events from time to time and maybe even resurrect the scenary to life posing entertaining encounters.
I see what you are talking about though, I like to think outside of the box with the luxury of my solutions being fully theoretical in nature (Allows for epic brainstorming).
I can still make worlds seem large by adding mountains for players to see the "view from above"
I guess we have different views on "limitations" though, even though flying mounts might sound convenient to a player, I find it "Game breaking" IMO (Combat is much harder to make engaging without having technical problems, or having all areas be too easily reachable plus the fact ground mounts become obsolete as a fyling mount can both walk and fly).
Heck I could even remove half of the mob population to make more space for AI commands if I tweak the rules a little (For more immersive encounters).
A game doesn't have to have everything, but variety must be presented in several areas to make up for those you as the developer want to restrict.
Another thing I wanna add is, that it may be convenient to have a button in Halo that wipes all the aliens on the screen and kills everything in sight with a single press. But that's not fun.
What's convenient and what's fun are two different things, and are often at odds.
So flying mounts may be one of those things where it may be convenient, but it's potentially a game-killer.
I think what it comes down is to the user, Sure I had a flying mount in wow but it actually helped me explore more as I could go to higher levels and see things from the top which I quite like. On my alts I actually never went exploring until I got my flying mount because they made it fun for me as I get bored looking at things from the ground.
Comments
Only if the world is already small IMO. I never had that feeling in Vanguard or WoW. In fact it made the world seem larger because of the view distance and how much I was able to see.
One can fly longer in the abyss and can top off one's flight time with potions or increase flight time with gear.
Out of the abyss there are areas where one can fly but they have a somewhat shorter flight time though one can increase it as above. Otherwise one can glide places.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW is the example I was going to use ironically. The game world isn't small but the ability to travel so fast with hearths, teleports and flying mounts take out any sense of danger and exploration to me. So while the world isn't small it just feels tiny to me.
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
I agree with that (and actually wrote a lot more about it already on page 1).
Mounted combat is really a great idea if you do it right and the reason no MMO have lances yet (to my knowledge at least) is a mystery to me.
But I think there should be several limits to using mounts. In the real world you use them on roads and fields, in the forest it is risky and in the jungle, swamp or similar it is impossible.
Allowing the character to only have one mount on him/her at the same type makes sense (let there be a stable outside town where you can change).
And make it possible but a bad idea to use the mount in a terrain where it isn't intended (A huge tiger can probably run fine in the forest but have a lot less stamina). Make it a chance that the animal get hurt if you use it in the wrong place and gets a cooldown for one hour, the chance should depend how reckless the player was. Full sped in a swamp can only lead to disaster.
Than you add lances, horse attacks and exchange the players attacks like I said in my first post. Armor for mounts is a good idea as well, together with hitpoints and the possibility to take the mount out (not permanently).
Also mount speed should be based on the terrain, and the same goes for stamina loss. Using a road is is fast and not that hard.m Running on a field is almost as fast but uses a bit more stamina. A forest is still slower and have the chance for an accident.
Having mounts as a rather fast way between cities as long as you use the road is not a bad idea (but since it is a lot easier you could run into outlaws). allowing people to use them all the time everywhere just makes your gameworld smaller.
And of course there should be chariots (and sledges in snowy places), both for war and to caravan stuff from place A to B for profit. An Egyptian style war chariot would be really nice in the right terrain.
And some minigames with mounts is fun as well. Horse races, roman styled chariot races and jousting would add to the fun, betting should of course be included.
Baseless? Hardly. Your inability to recognize that games without stinging death penalty sell better across all genres of games doesn't make my claim baseless.
Nothing about any of what I've posted constitutes "hand-holding". It constitutes "my time is valuable; don't waste it".
I don't act like those games can't be fulfilling. I act like those games aren't desirable to the majority of players, myself included. Most players value games more than worlds. Interesting, accessible gameplay patterns combined with social interactions makes a good MMORPG.
Excessive punishment provides the tiniest bump in adrenaline, at the cost of a huge likelihood of shoving away playerbase.
It may be exciting to visit your friend who sometimes beats you up and leaves you at the side of the curb, but after a while most people start to question whether that's a friendship or not. Maybe it's best to spend time with the friends who result in interesting interactions instead?
My statements are based in very clear, obvious, and observable patterns in which games people pursue. Consider opening your eyes to what people actually enjoy, and you'll see I'm right to claim that "most players" don't enjoy games with stinging penalty -- because they very obviously don't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your statements are very obvious and clear- that much I agree with. Again, another post backing up your opinion that the majority want an easy, shallow experience with... more opinions. Way to prove your point.
The vast majority of posts you make always assume (with zero proof) that the majority of gamers prefer this type of gameplay, which you've never substantiated- even if the majority of posters in those threads disagree. Number one, popularity does not equal quality or enjoyment. Let's take WoW for instance- because I know you love that one. It would be easy and extremely ignorant to say that it's what the majority of players want because they have vastly more subs reported. The 12 million number is a figment, it constitutes nothing. When they release how many western accounts they have for unique individuals (not just people with multiple accounts) then that would be a number I'd pay attention to.
What these posts really come down to is that you don't enjoy anything more complex than a console game, and because of that want MMOs to follow suit- and of course because you feel this way then the majority of gamers do as well.
Who is to say what punishment constitutes excessive? Oh, you again. I forgot that you are the premier knowledge base of what the majority of MMO gamers want, you may even be their poster child!
The sad thing is, I can see where this is all heading- years down the line WoW will have seemed "hardcore" because MMOs will just devolve into farmville style games- because those are popular, right? They are accessible and that's what the majority of players want! Players don't want to have to put effort towards a game! They don't want any repercussions because they are poor at playing the game! All players deserve to achieve in games just by showing up, and pushing a button every so often. No one should ever argue against this because it's what the majority wants, then the rest of us should just blindly consume as well.
Well, I as a MMORPG gamer disagree. We deserve more meaningful and well thought out gameplay that is developed with keeping players responsible for what they do and say in even one out of a dozen releases instead of just accepting simplistic, shallow, anonymous gameplay for the ADHD generation.
Flying mounts completely ruin the game. Terrain becomes wortless - all the little flowers, high grass and all the small pretty things become irrelevant. No one travels by feet, no one cares about these small things - everyone just hops to the air and flies from point A to point B.
The game loses that magic feel to the world. You stop feeling like you're in a real fantasy world.
I know most part of todays mmo generation, who only cares about aquiring huge spiky shoulders, don't care for the "magic feel" to the world.
I like having a way to travel faster. It should be gated by a milestone you have to reach, but walking for 30 minutes to get somewhere in a game isn't my cup of tea anymore.
BTW, great post Pierth
I second that.
I made a thread a few weeks back about "MMORPG's are in dire need to go back to it's roots" and that is damn true. Because the console kids think they know what a real mmo rpg is. Wouldn't the first mmorpgs determine what a real mmorpg is? Since they was the first?
Its obvious that there are two factions of mmo gamers. Post Wow and Pre Wow. This does not neglect the different style of mmos such as themepark or sandbox. It's merely the philosophy behind the mmos before and after wow. Plain and simple. There is a massive niche of old school mmo gamers who want that meaninful world again.
I appreciate the support- it's not like I think all of the way EQ and DAOC did things were the exact right way to do it, nor the only way to do it, however it's very clear to see that today's MMOs aren't merely streamlining the classics. They are outright gutting them. I also know that there will always be timesinks of some sort and accept that- it's the only way developers can keep players playing between content patches or expansions.
The thing that gets me is, today the only lure they seem to use is itemized by weapons, armor, or fluff items that don't even make sense within the lore of the game a good chunk of the time. Instead, why not slow down leveling and make that content meaningful instead of rushing to endgame where they run out of content? Why not create expansions where instead of making each dungeon a tier ago a complete faceroll, develop a multifaction system as in Velious? I'm not even going to get into asking why they continually taint the possibility of forging good communities by removing all interdependence from players until endgame. There are good, solid gameplay mechanics from older games that expand the play hours of a game just by releasing content that the playerbase doesn't go through like a woodchipper. Not only would it keep players interested in what's there longer but it'd also give the companies time to spend on the new content so as not to have to rush it out with needless bugs.
Again, I'm not even saying that no MMOs should have solo content, but I'd be far happier if even one a year, or even every other year got mechanics similar to FFXI, EQ1, DAoC, or COH. I'd also love to see a game with as much variance in crafting (as well as noncombat "classes") like SWG- however I cannot say more for that game as I never played it. It's just frustrating to see developers and production companies taking the quick money grab route to creating these games and enticing the playerbase with shiny graphics and the newer generation just accepting it wholeheartedly because they are too ignorant to know any better, and only have stories of past games to try to enlighten them to something different instead of having those actual games to try.
This is becoming interesting.
It seems like people are basically saying that it more depends on the game-design purpose of the mount, rather than the actual functionality of flying itself. That is the game was designed to be walked around in, then obviously having a flying mount breaks that design. I never thought of it that way before.
So a good question would then be, what are some good game/level-design scenarios which would be best suited for a ground mount? Or alternatively, some good designs that would fit a flying mount perfectly?
I'm also intrigued by the idea of having another layer of gameplay around mounts and combat. Is anyone aware of any game that does mounted combat real well? In a way that could work in an MMO of course.
Agreed. The problem is repetition of areas to travel over nad over again. To this one problem, there are multiple solutions, you can just go by adding flying mounts or portals.
But you can also make the areas not repeat (The environment changing similar to GW2 dynamic events), you can have events from time to time and maybe even resurrect the scenary to life posing entertaining encounters.
I see what you are talking about though, I like to think outside of the box with the luxury of my solutions being fully theoretical in nature (Allows for epic brainstorming).
I can still make worlds seem large by adding mountains for players to see the "view from above"
I guess we have different views on "limitations" though, even though flying mounts might sound convenient to a player, I find it "Game breaking" IMO (Combat is much harder to make engaging without having technical problems, or having all areas be too easily reachable plus the fact ground mounts become obsolete as a fyling mount can both walk and fly).
Heck I could even remove half of the mob population to make more space for AI commands if I tweak the rules a little (For more immersive encounters).
A game doesn't have to have everything, but variety must be presented in several areas to make up for those you as the developer want to restrict.
Another thing I wanna add is, that it may be convenient to have a button in Halo that wipes all the aliens on the screen and kills everything in sight with a single press. But that's not fun.
What's convenient and what's fun are two different things, and are often at odds.
So flying mounts may be one of those things where it may be convenient, but it's potentially a game-killer.
I think what it comes down is to the user, Sure I had a flying mount in wow but it actually helped me explore more as I could go to higher levels and see things from the top which I quite like. On my alts I actually never went exploring until I got my flying mount because they made it fun for me as I get bored looking at things from the ground.