Understand all, the term "oldschool" for one, could be subjective, and Jaxsundane was correct when he said I don't group everyone in the same categories, but for the purpose of understanding this system I took some creative liberties in the naming of this thread.
So many of these threads, rehashed by different people, using different words to make the same points, many of them being self proclaimed "old school" gamers, or just being plain old, believe that this system may just not be for them.
"Button Mashers" you call them, its like saying that your run of the mill MMO would be a "Key Masher." It tries to derogate what this system actually accomplishes which is a very thorough, complex and intense combat system.
You know, I consider myself "old school" in the sense that I've been playing games for as long as I can remember. I've had a very long and successful history playing games, so when I hear such raucous from self proclaimed "old school" gamers I can't help but wonder at what stage these players stopped being gamers, and just started to be "old".
Don't take that the wrong way, but to me, a game is either fun and I play it, or it isn't fun and I don't. I don't contemplate the minutia of what its system will look like, or the longevity this game could bring for me in the long term. I play DCUO because its fun to me now, just like I played SWG while it was fun for me then, and why I'll play RIFT because I enjoyed my time in Beta.
To summarize, I think there are these people out there, those that are looking for games with the slow progression, with character based skills, and long term goals. These players that look at DCUO and scoff and say "That game is shallow, and made for consoles." and write it off because a game like that just "can't be fun" and my OP is a way to just cut to the chase. It accentuates the nuances of the combat system, and tries to soften the blow to the self proclaimed "Oldschoolers" that this game may just not be for them.
Do they "get it" ? Some do. Those that do don't knock the game because they don't like it, they just move on. Others verbally denounce the game and impose an ultimatum or they'll take their business elsewhere. "Fix this, this, and that, or you won't see me playing this game again."
If some people take offense to my OP I can't say that some offense wasn't intended, but I will say that the ideas behind it were more to catch the glance of these posters more-so then to incite hostility.
one of the best posts i've seen on these forums. well said.
dunno why so many people got so offended. i guess cuz they are all wrapped up in labelling themselves as "old school".
it should have been obvious you were meaning ***old school MMO lovers*** (and not old school gamers in general) who are perfectly happy with stand still and mash hotbar keys as they light up whack-a-mole gameplay where real life skills are extremely minimized.
and that by "get it" you mean, have the ability to appreciate and enjoy real life skills based gaming.
its a whole different ball of wax. if you love traditional MMOGs there's a great chance that you won't like DCUO.
______________________________________ Play my entire game FREE if you want
I find it funny that some people think that "twitch gameplay" will somehow even out the gaming experience by introducing skill over powerleveling. Twitch gameplay is just as much of a time sink as the "old school" method of levling up. You need to practice over and over to get good, higher level players will still have the advantage over those of lower levels. The only difference is the more chaotic gameplay in these types of MMOs, it's like real time strategy VS turn based strategy.
i find it funny you can't see the significance in the the difference.
one of the great things about MMOs is persistence. what's more persistant than YOURSELF and YOUR OWN skills?
sure twitch is a time sink. but this point is almost irrelevant.
most people here have probably already "levelled up" in it quite a bit by this point in our lives. if if you don't play modern day FPS/RTS or whatever, don't forget PacMan/Donkey-Kong and virtually all the ancient classics were twitch games.
and....
going from 0-100 twitch skill (if you could quantify it like that) happens only ONCE in your entire lifetime.
is persistent across ALL games that you play.
it can never be reset, erased or invalidated by:
(1) changes to a game
(2) a game being cancelled, company going out of business
(3) you getting sick of a game and quitting
(4) the game dying of old age
and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games. usually in short bursts. not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.
______________________________________ Play my entire game FREE if you want
and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games. usually in short bursts. not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.
lool.... dude, you have to suck if that's all you know :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games. usually in short bursts. not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.
lool.... dude, you have to suck if that's all you know :P
uhhhh what? all i know is that i refuse to grind games?
______________________________________ Play my entire game FREE if you want
I'm definitely an old school gamer and I think that DCUO is a good game. It's just not $15/month good, in my opinion.
The PvE is pretty standard quest grinding monotony. The only difference is you get to click MB1 and MB2 repeatedly instead of 1 and 2. PvE takes 0 skill... unless you count blocking boss powers while they're charging up as skill.
PvP on the other hand is quite fun in the open world if you're playing with friends over Vent...
The instanced PvE and PvP for me was really boring. So paying a monthly payment to do open world PvP with a group of RL friends when I can have just as much fun with them in CoD for free..... well... I'll pass.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Combat will not be the make or break thing for "old school" players.
its quite the same as any game out there you just gota click more mouse buttons and are forced to use 1-6 power tray every few secs/min as the combat bonus is scaled to power usage.
the make or break thing will be the lack of social gameplay, lack of roleplay mechanics, lack of diverce combat. (it being repetive from 0-30) There is no "depth"in the game at all, what you see is what you get. A fun action game that will entertain you for a month maybe two.
its a fun game but not worth the money on a monthly for me personaly.
I just don't think that sort of gameplay works well in an MMORPG environment. It's one thing to pick up and play a game like Dynasty Warriors for a quick 30 minute session, but MMORPGs are designed to be played for much longer periods of time, and I'm sorry, but that combat drives me insane after less than an hour of playing.
While I respect that certain people prefer standard MMO combat systems, I don't understand how hitting the same handful of buttons over and over again in an standard configuration is any different. If anything, its more condusive to become extremely boring over long periods of time since very little actual thought is involved outside of a standard rotation.
There is a reason I macroed the majority of my rotations in WoW when I raided.
With many of low end minions button mashing works, but for the normal spawn and higher mobs i noticed tactics are needed to keep you from dying alot. So in other words. You can button mash if you want, or you can be efficient with your play and actually do it right and die a lot less.
DCUO is just taking elements from other gaming genres and bringing them into the mmo arena. What's not to get? This isn't even the first mmo to try this.
To say 'old school gamers' won't get it, is kind of patronizing and I think that's why some took offense. These game mechanics were not created in DCUO but are completely derivative of games we have been playing in other genres for decades. Any old school gamer would know that...
Sometimes it's not that people don't get something. It's just that people have different tastes. And when you start pulling elements from other genres and putting them in this one, it's not surprising some people will say, 'Hey, I like mmo's and what makes them unique and distinct from other genres.'
What I find objectionable is while newer mmos are trying to pull components from other genres, they are also taking away the main strength of mmos by making the experience more of a solo experience by design.
But while the OP's closing paragraphs were a bit condescending, I did appreciate the effort the OP took in laying out some combat strategy. Very insightful. So thanks for that.
This is the first MMO where PvP takes real skill far over stats and levels. You have to learn when to block, when to block break, what combos to use in what situations, when to use what powers, etc. I have seen good level 7-12 PvPers destroy level 20's. Yes the 20 if played well will have a big advantage, but a good players always has a chance. This combat system is amazing in an MMO environment especially with open world PvP.
The different weapons are balanced, but offer many different styles and learning curves. Some have 10 hit combos and some you only need 1-3 hit combos. Some are ranged block breakers and some are up close stun/knockdown in your face combo loving.
If you ever played the Naruto fighting game you will be extremely comfortable with this sytem. It is very close to Naruto's system in an MMORPG world.
you also have the problem of lag causeing combat to not work, a game that is twitch based needs a great buffer system to ensure that everything is lag free. With lag the combat system breaks down far faster than an old school mmo.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
Fighting games simple ?
Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)
My first MMO was Ultima Online beta.. been faithful to MMOs since, so I guess I am oldschool.. (don't like the OLD part though haha) Anyway, I really loved the DCUO beta and will be playing upon release. It isnt by far the biggest best game ever... And I dont think it will change the mmo landscape, but as an oldschool gamer it was enjoyable and I "got it" lol.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
Fighting games simple ?
Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)
Probably played more hours on those then you did. Button combos do NOT make a game more complicated. They just give you more buttons to mash.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
There is plenty of skill in this game, and way more than any MMO to date. That doesn't mean it is hard or will be difficult to master for old school gamers. It means that it takes more skill than any other MMO out there, and it may be difficult for new age MMO players.
Console fighting games are not all simple by any means. Maybe to you, but not to the vast majority of players. Simple is a relative term. When you go online against other players there is always room for improvement unless you are ranked number 1 in the world. Then you are just that 1 exception out of hundreds of thousands to millions.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
lol a whackamole MMOer calling console fighting game combat 'simple'...
Originally posted by maskedweasel Why do the "old school" MMO players not like this system? Theres no specific class structure dictating an advantage. A healer has no more advantage over a Tank who has no more advantage over a controller. There are no rock/paper/scissors classes, just attacks and counterattacks.
So what you're saying is... it's the mmo equivalent of castle crashers with a re-skin?
I love the game, but... I don't want an mmo based around it (least not one I regularly pay for.)
All in all though, I like the fact they at least TRIED to innovate instead of beating the same tired horse some more.
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
Fighting games simple ?
Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)
Probably played more hours on those then you did. Button combos do NOT make a game more complicated. They just give you more buttons to mash.
Then you clearly never played them decently, it's not only about combinations.... It's about timing, reflexes and understanding every move your opponent makes, ...
If we follow your logic then not 1 game is complicated as it only takes buttons and mouseclicks to play them...
Like I said before, it's easy to play but hard to master. (not talking about dcuo since i haven't played it yet, I just hope it will be lke that)
My complaint as an "old school" gamer has nothing to do with the combat. In fact i like the combat, i get it, but it gets a bit old with the tap, tap, hold, hold. My problem revolves around Powers, be it the 6 trees i can choose from or the 6 i get on my hot bar, that i do not like, because contrary to what SOE says, "I CANNOT BUILD MY LEGEND". The idea i have for a hero is not possible, and it's not some off the wall idea, in fact it's somthing right out of what their source material. There is no hard light set, and i dont give a shit what SOE says, SUPERMAN ISN'T ICE! Superman is a Might based character, period.
Great topic, thank you OP and I hope you have tested attacks and their anti-attacks so it really works
I have a question, how you can recognize what attack your opponent is using? I really have hard time recognize type of attack, is there any help for this?
_____________________________ Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
I find it funny that some people think that "twitch gameplay" will somehow even out the gaming experience by introducing skill over powerleveling. Twitch gameplay is just as much of a time sink as the "old school" method of levling up. You need to practice over and over to get good, higher level players will still have the advantage over those of lower levels. The only difference is the more chaotic gameplay in these types of MMOs, it's like real time strategy VS turn based strategy.
i find it funny you can't see the significance in the the difference.
one of the great things about MMOs is persistence. what's more persistant than YOURSELF and YOUR OWN skills?
sure twitch is a time sink. but this point is almost irrelevant.
most people here have probably already "levelled up" in it quite a bit by this point in our lives. if if you don't play modern day FPS/RTS or whatever, don't forget PacMan/Donkey-Kong and virtually all the ancient classics were twitch games.
and....
going from 0-100 twitch skill (if you could quantify it like that) happens only ONCE in your entire lifetime.
is persistent across ALL games that you play.
it can never be reset, erased or invalidated by:
(1) changes to a game
(2) a game being cancelled, company going out of business
(3) you getting sick of a game and quitting
(4) the game dying of old age
and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games. usually in short bursts. not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.
You are saying that twitch skill transcends all games? Are you joking? Unless you're playing a clone, switching from one game to another always requires a learning curve. If what you're looking for is a streamlined gameplay experience for all of your games, then you really don't demand much from your games now do you. You just completely destroyed any appeal of twitch focused MMOs with what you just said, that developing your skill in one game somehow prepares you fully for the next, how uneventful.
Luckily you are incorrect, as every good game and MMO has it's own feel and style regardless as to whether it is "traditional" or "twitch". There is no advantage of one over the other as I see it, which was the point of my post, there is only preference. All you had to do was write "I prefer one style over the other" and left out the nonsense about "standing still and mashing hotbar keys as they light up whack-a-mole gameplay where real life skills are extremely minimized."
A class focused traditional MMO requires plenty of skill, everyone has a role, has to manage their role and think as one while in a group. If your healer makes ONE mistake it could cause a devastating chain reaction, if your caster is premature with his mana draining nuke, you all have to change up your strategy, if your tank thinks his job is to just sit there and soak up damage, you all might as well run now. There is plenty of skill and strategy in that type of gameplay, one is not superior to the other just because you find it more fun and one does not offer more immediate satisfaction over the other because all good games have their own learning curves and intricacies which require their own timesinks of practice, practice practice. Just because someone is good ay Unreal Tournament does not mean they will immediately pick up or ever be any good at Counterstrike.
As for grinding, do you think a twitch game is immune to grinding? Grinding is a state of mind, some people play that way no matter what.
Comments
one of the best posts i've seen on these forums. well said.
dunno why so many people got so offended. i guess cuz they are all wrapped up in labelling themselves as "old school".
it should have been obvious you were meaning ***old school MMO lovers*** (and not old school gamers in general) who are perfectly happy with stand still and mash hotbar keys as they light up whack-a-mole gameplay where real life skills are extremely minimized.
and that by "get it" you mean, have the ability to appreciate and enjoy real life skills based gaming.
its a whole different ball of wax. if you love traditional MMOGs there's a great chance that you won't like DCUO.
______________________________________
Play my entire game FREE if you want
http://PlayRealNotes.com
i find it funny you can't see the significance in the the difference.
one of the great things about MMOs is persistence. what's more persistant than YOURSELF and YOUR OWN skills?
sure twitch is a time sink. but this point is almost irrelevant.
most people here have probably already "levelled up" in it quite a bit by this point in our lives. if if you don't play modern day FPS/RTS or whatever, don't forget PacMan/Donkey-Kong and virtually all the ancient classics were twitch games.
and....
going from 0-100 twitch skill (if you could quantify it like that) happens only ONCE in your entire lifetime.
is persistent across ALL games that you play.
it can never be reset, erased or invalidated by:
(1) changes to a game
(2) a game being cancelled, company going out of business
(3) you getting sick of a game and quitting
(4) the game dying of old age
and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games. usually in short bursts. not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.
______________________________________
Play my entire game FREE if you want
http://PlayRealNotes.com
lool.... dude, you have to suck if that's all you know :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
uhhhh what? all i know is that i refuse to grind games?
______________________________________
Play my entire game FREE if you want
http://PlayRealNotes.com
I'm definitely an old school gamer and I think that DCUO is a good game. It's just not $15/month good, in my opinion.
The PvE is pretty standard quest grinding monotony. The only difference is you get to click MB1 and MB2 repeatedly instead of 1 and 2. PvE takes 0 skill... unless you count blocking boss powers while they're charging up as skill.
PvP on the other hand is quite fun in the open world if you're playing with friends over Vent...
The instanced PvE and PvP for me was really boring. So paying a monthly payment to do open world PvP with a group of RL friends when I can have just as much fun with them in CoD for free..... well... I'll pass.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Combat will not be the make or break thing for "old school" players.
its quite the same as any game out there you just gota click more mouse buttons and are forced to use 1-6 power tray every few secs/min as the combat bonus is scaled to power usage.
the make or break thing will be the lack of social gameplay, lack of roleplay mechanics, lack of diverce combat. (it being repetive from 0-30) There is no "depth"in the game at all, what you see is what you get. A fun action game that will entertain you for a month maybe two.
its a fun game but not worth the money on a monthly for me personaly.
While I respect that certain people prefer standard MMO combat systems, I don't understand how hitting the same handful of buttons over and over again in an standard configuration is any different. If anything, its more condusive to become extremely boring over long periods of time since very little actual thought is involved outside of a standard rotation.
There is a reason I macroed the majority of my rotations in WoW when I raided.
With many of low end minions button mashing works, but for the normal spawn and higher mobs i noticed tactics are needed to keep you from dying alot. So in other words. You can button mash if you want, or you can be efficient with your play and actually do it right and die a lot less.
DCUO is just taking elements from other gaming genres and bringing them into the mmo arena. What's not to get? This isn't even the first mmo to try this.
To say 'old school gamers' won't get it, is kind of patronizing and I think that's why some took offense. These game mechanics were not created in DCUO but are completely derivative of games we have been playing in other genres for decades. Any old school gamer would know that...
Sometimes it's not that people don't get something. It's just that people have different tastes. And when you start pulling elements from other genres and putting them in this one, it's not surprising some people will say, 'Hey, I like mmo's and what makes them unique and distinct from other genres.'
What I find objectionable is while newer mmos are trying to pull components from other genres, they are also taking away the main strength of mmos by making the experience more of a solo experience by design.
But while the OP's closing paragraphs were a bit condescending, I did appreciate the effort the OP took in laying out some combat strategy. Very insightful. So thanks for that.
This is the first MMO where PvP takes real skill far over stats and levels. You have to learn when to block, when to block break, what combos to use in what situations, when to use what powers, etc. I have seen good level 7-12 PvPers destroy level 20's. Yes the 20 if played well will have a big advantage, but a good players always has a chance. This combat system is amazing in an MMO environment especially with open world PvP.
The different weapons are balanced, but offer many different styles and learning curves. Some have 10 hit combos and some you only need 1-3 hit combos. Some are ranged block breakers and some are up close stun/knockdown in your face combo loving.
If you ever played the Naruto fighting game you will be extremely comfortable with this sytem. It is very close to Naruto's system in an MMORPG world.
you also have the problem of lag causeing combat to not work, a game that is twitch based needs a great buffer system to ensure that everything is lag free. With lag the combat system breaks down far faster than an old school mmo.
Button Mashing is what casual players do in action rpg's/beat'em up (or when there is no decent combat system with blocks/dodges/counters etc...)
It's like in Street Fighter, you can call that a "button masher" aswell, but any skillfull player will tell you otherwise.
In the end you are right tbh the only thing you do is pressing buttons but it doesn't mean it has to be mindless mashing.
@OP
Very nice guide
I haven't played dcuo yet, but I hope it's really as deep as you make it look ^_^
There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.
Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Fighting games simple ?
Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)
My first MMO was Ultima Online beta.. been faithful to MMOs since, so I guess I am oldschool.. (don't like the OLD part though haha) Anyway, I really loved the DCUO beta and will be playing upon release. It isnt by far the biggest best game ever... And I dont think it will change the mmo landscape, but as an oldschool gamer it was enjoyable and I "got it" lol.
Probably played more hours on those then you did. Button combos do NOT make a game more complicated. They just give you more buttons to mash.
Let's party like it is 1863!
There is plenty of skill in this game, and way more than any MMO to date. That doesn't mean it is hard or will be difficult to master for old school gamers. It means that it takes more skill than any other MMO out there, and it may be difficult for new age MMO players.
Console fighting games are not all simple by any means. Maybe to you, but not to the vast majority of players. Simple is a relative term. When you go online against other players there is always room for improvement unless you are ranked number 1 in the world. Then you are just that 1 exception out of hundreds of thousands to millions.
That sounds really cool. I really want to try DC Universe now when before I had zero interest.
Sounds a lot like a button masher to me, but I enjoy those sometimes.
And does this game really have no classes? That is great, I would like to see more mmorpgs with open skill systems ala. Planetside, SWG.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Oh nevermind I see now that its 'as if' the game had no classes. Ok.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
lol a whackamole MMOer calling console fighting game combat 'simple'...
some of the things I read here make me wince ><
So what you're saying is... it's the mmo equivalent of castle crashers with a re-skin?
I love the game, but... I don't want an mmo based around it (least not one I regularly pay for.)
All in all though, I like the fact they at least TRIED to innovate instead of beating the same tired horse some more.
Shadus
Then you clearly never played them decently, it's not only about combinations.... It's about timing, reflexes and understanding every move your opponent makes, ...
If we follow your logic then not 1 game is complicated as it only takes buttons and mouseclicks to play them...
Like I said before, it's easy to play but hard to master. (not talking about dcuo since i haven't played it yet, I just hope it will be lke that)
My complaint as an "old school" gamer has nothing to do with the combat. In fact i like the combat, i get it, but it gets a bit old with the tap, tap, hold, hold. My problem revolves around Powers, be it the 6 trees i can choose from or the 6 i get on my hot bar, that i do not like, because contrary to what SOE says, "I CANNOT BUILD MY LEGEND". The idea i have for a hero is not possible, and it's not some off the wall idea, in fact it's somthing right out of what their source material. There is no hard light set, and i dont give a shit what SOE says, SUPERMAN ISN'T ICE! Superman is a Might based character, period.
Great topic, thank you OP and I hope you have tested attacks and their anti-attacks so it really works
I have a question, how you can recognize what attack your opponent is using? I really have hard time recognize type of attack, is there any help for this?
_____________________________
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
You are saying that twitch skill transcends all games? Are you joking? Unless you're playing a clone, switching from one game to another always requires a learning curve. If what you're looking for is a streamlined gameplay experience for all of your games, then you really don't demand much from your games now do you. You just completely destroyed any appeal of twitch focused MMOs with what you just said, that developing your skill in one game somehow prepares you fully for the next, how uneventful.
Luckily you are incorrect, as every good game and MMO has it's own feel and style regardless as to whether it is "traditional" or "twitch". There is no advantage of one over the other as I see it, which was the point of my post, there is only preference. All you had to do was write "I prefer one style over the other" and left out the nonsense about "standing still and mashing hotbar keys as they light up whack-a-mole gameplay where real life skills are extremely minimized."
A class focused traditional MMO requires plenty of skill, everyone has a role, has to manage their role and think as one while in a group. If your healer makes ONE mistake it could cause a devastating chain reaction, if your caster is premature with his mana draining nuke, you all have to change up your strategy, if your tank thinks his job is to just sit there and soak up damage, you all might as well run now. There is plenty of skill and strategy in that type of gameplay, one is not superior to the other just because you find it more fun and one does not offer more immediate satisfaction over the other because all good games have their own learning curves and intricacies which require their own timesinks of practice, practice practice. Just because someone is good ay Unreal Tournament does not mean they will immediately pick up or ever be any good at Counterstrike.
As for grinding, do you think a twitch game is immune to grinding? Grinding is a state of mind, some people play that way no matter what.