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DCUO Combat Demystified (aka: why "Oldschool" MMO'ers won't get it)
maskedweasel
Member LegendaryPosts: 12,180
First let me start by saying what follows is more of a guide to understanding the combat system, how to spec a character early on to be competitive on the PvP servers, and the utmost basic understanding of combative tactics in DC Universe Online.
For those more interested in the discussion of why "Oldschool" MMOers won't get it, skip to the end.
In DCUO you essentially have 3 major kinds of attacks that you can utilize with your SKILL set. Your skill set is essentially your weapons set, which is made up of combo skills and innate powers. Each set is comprised of these things, and each of them have counter attacks associated with them.
When you start a new character, the most important attacks to have are basic, and available to you within your first 3 skill points. To stay competitive in PvP you must get these first.
1) Leap Attack : You need your leap attack. This is usually a skill utilizing the holding of the left mouse button, or the Square button on the PS3 controller. (X on the 360.)
2) Block Breaker: You need your block breaker. This skill is usually done by holding the right mouse button, or Triangle on the PS3 Controller (Y on the 360.)
3) Combos: You need your first combo set. This may vary depending on the weapon skill you choose. Your first combo could knock down the opponent, knock up the opponent, or stun them.
4) Blocking/Rolling: The last ability you need to know is how to block attacks which is set as shift for PC, Right Button for PS3 and 360 (not right trigger)
Now for basic mechanics. I.E. Rock, Paper, Scissors. Please use the list above for reference.
A) When an opponent does a combo meant to knock down, knock up, knock back, or stun, you block. This will result in them being knocked down.
When an opponent notices a block and tries to utilize their block breaker, you leap attack. This will result in you stunning them.#1 > #2
C) When an opponent is blocking, you utilize a block breaker. This will result in you stunning the opposing player.
D) When you see an opening in your opponents defenses, whether they are knocked down, stunned, or knocked up, utilize your combos to keep them from launching a counter attack.
#3 = stun / knock back / knock down / knock up
E) If you see your opponent block and roll, use a leap attack to stun them so that they cannot get away. This will result in you stunning the other player.
#1 > rolling
F) If you see an opponent utilizing a power that requires a charge time, you leap attack or combo to interrupt. Very useful against healers. This will result in stopping the player from casting.
G) If an opponent is trying to leap attack at you, blocking will knock them down instantly.
H) Lastly if and/or after you are knocked down, stunned, etc. use your block button to break out so you can continue fighting. For stuns it may call for repeated hitting of the left mouse button.
#4 > stuns/ knockback / knockup
Following these basic steps will get your foot in the door for all those looking to PvP or for those just wanting to know more about the combat system and how it can help you in PvE too. PvE mobs will utilize knockbacks, stuns, etc. and knowing what these moves are and how to counter can be the difference between life and death.
Why do the "old school" MMO players not like this system? Theres no specific class structure dictating an advantage. A healer has no more advantage over a Tank who has no more advantage over a controller. There are no rock/paper/scissors classes, just attacks and counterattacks.
Theres no perfect mix of classes for your team members to win a battle, only the perfect mix of skillful players. Theres no click and wait for the next move, there are only actions and reactions, and quick thinking.
Theres no instant combination to win, nor are there pieces of gear that will overpower a player so much they will win every battle. There are gankers who gank the level 9 when they are level 20, and then the level 9 that kills the level 20 ganker. With the information above you may not be able to win every battle, but you'll make it damn hard for others to beat you.
Many games before this glorifies time spent and they have that time spent = your accomplishment both in the world and in battle. Here, a strong player can be known by his combative competency alone, and he can do so way before max level.
In this sense, the game is very progressive in terms of both combat, and level disparity. It may be quite possibly the most important part of the game, and one of the major pieces they've done right that will keep players playing. When the new blood coming in can be competitive as the veterans with just a little know how, it makes for a very engrossing game.
Comments
This is why the game gets a 10/10 from me, combat rocks!!
Really excellent post! Thanks very much, I'm sure many people will find this extremely helpful.
Would say that it is more, not to somes liking, not that people like me can't "get it".
I am not a twitch game player.
Was going to take a look at this game, but from what has been said, would just be a waste of money for me.
Not going to knock it, just not going to be for me, so those that like it, enjoy.
The Trinity wouldn't work smoothly in an action MMO, and the DC Universe is as good a setting as any for this type of combat. Different? Yep. Interesting? Personal preference. Will we start seeing all future MMOs with combat like this? No.
you make it sound like duco's combat has depth to it
its a button masher nothing more.
So anyone not drawn to console style game play and prefer "traditional" MMORPG style game play must not be able to "get it" ??? Really??
Couldn't it be that us old school players simply "prefer" the traditional style of combat? I had fun in the DU beta, did very well with the PvP combat. Never complained and had absolutely ZERO trouble with playing it or how the "system" works. I do however prefer Rift, I prefer the traditional style of gameplay found in MMOs like Rift, EQ2, EQ1, DAoC and so on...
DU plays like a console game, the combat plays like that and the system is setup to work for console players. Because us "Old school" gamers prefer PC style games certainly does not mean we can't "get it"
My son, he plays about everything released on the PS3 enjoyed DU as well, and he however, prefers Rift, it has nothing to do with "getting it". its a preference. Simple as that.
www.90and9.net
www.prophecymma.com
OP,
Assuming MMO "old schoolers" and "veterans" won't "get it," seems a little arrogant and presumptuous on your part in my opinion.
First of all.....reading your reasoning behind that statement in yellow/gold.....to me it sounds more like you're talking about WoW players from the specific comments you made. WoW players are not generally thought to be "old school" MMO'ers or veterans either one. Secondly, many of the ACTUAL "old school" players dating back to UO or FURTHER, like Meridian, NWN, and MUDs, are open-minded about the genre, have continued playing through many years of changes, and by nature they might be more into exploring changes. You shouldn't really assume "old schoolers" are all the same, and it's certainly a fallacy to call WoW players "old school." Maybe the terminology you were looking for was "last generation gamers" meaning NOT "new generation gamers."
I realize we're mostly talking semantics here, but I generally find it offensive to be lumped in with "easy mode" gamers and told that's old school. Old school wasn't particularly "easy mode." And I think DCUO combat sounds interesting, myself, so....I also agree with the post directly above mine about it being a preference.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Thaaat's funny... I was trying to figure out what "oldschool" might mean. Could you perhaps be talking about the MUDs we used to play with 2000+ people to a server and text blazing past down our screen as fast as our Telnet clients could recieve combat information?
Ohhhhh, no, you probably aren't referring to that "oldschool". Maybe you are referring to kinda older years like say when, SOE had another MMO game where your level didn't mean squat and it was purely based on a player's own skill at twitch gaming. It was called Planetside. Your comments at the end of your post are retarded, OP.
I can still stunlock and juggle people with rinse and repeat combos, in Healer mode, and any small pvp group who doesn't die to that just gets bruteforce pummeled into submission while I tap into my unlimited self-heals.
Us "old school" MMOers tend to be "old school gamers" in general. You'll find we've generally played enough fighting games to understand that DCU has the exact same set up. Don't be surprised when some old school Street Fighter 2, Killer Instinct, or Mortal Kombat players whoop ya OP.
VERY NICE POST! thank you.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
I agree its based on personal preference. I know a lot of old school players and some of us love DCUO while others prefer Rift. I had to force myself to log into Rift's beta yet have to tear myself away from DCUO's. Others are the complete opposite and there's nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same thing.
Whilst its a good write up on the combat, generalisations about "oldschool" just don't add nothing imo.
Let's not stick WOW players into this conversation like we try to do with others, I'm being a little presumptious to say this but I think the reason for the thread title has alot more to do with the fact that quite a few gamers on this site have already declared that they aren't going to play the game because they don't like or don't get the combat lot's of those discussions have mentioned it as a button masher etc.
I don't think he is assuming all old schoolers are the same but I'm fairly certain the ones who me and him both have posted with about this subject could use this information.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Button mashers... Now that's an old school term for newbies to fighting games that tended to mash buttons. How fitting lol.
I get the combat.
I just don't think that sort of gameplay works well in an MMORPG environment. It's one thing to pick up and play a game like Dynasty Warriors for a quick 30 minute session, but MMORPGs are designed to be played for much longer periods of time, and I'm sorry, but that combat drives me insane after less than an hour of playing.
Great post OP. Looks like a good combat system. Like the counter system a lot.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
To the op your wrong us old school as you call us do get it. I actually have an xbox and play it from time to time. However I don't love my xbox. Im older and have bad joints, in fact both hands have arthritis, playing a control game for over an hour at a time is about all I can do.
I did get the combos and combat, but to say I'm old school and don't understand it is a stretch.
I don't like the ui in dcuo, as it really is designed for a controller and not a keyboard, it is the one thing that turned me off the most, other than the loud bang bang bang of all my attacks did.
The things I loved the most about the game were the graphics, some of the music, and the layout of the city and how to get around and all. I loved the Que for pvp and dailies.
I will respectfully pass on this game as I prefer my old style combat like eq2. You youngsters can have fun playing dcuo and I think you will until you run out of stuff to do and have to start grinding daily missions out for faction to buy stuff with. It is just not the game for me, even thought I made it to level cap in beta.
Understand all, the term "oldschool" for one, could be subjective, and Jaxsundane was correct when he said I don't group everyone in the same categories, but for the purpose of understanding this system I took some creative liberties in the naming of this thread.
So many of these threads, rehashed by different people, using different words to make the same points, many of them being self proclaimed "old school" gamers, or just being plain old, believe that this system may just not be for them.
"Button Mashers" you call them, its like saying that your run of the mill MMO would be a "Key Masher." It tries to derogate what this system actually accomplishes which is a very thorough, complex and intense combat system.
You know, I consider myself "old school" in the sense that I've been playing games for as long as I can remember. I've had a very long and successful history playing games, so when I hear such raucous from self proclaimed "old school" gamers I can't help but wonder at what stage these players stopped being gamers, and just started to be "old".
Don't take that the wrong way, but to me, a game is either fun and I play it, or it isn't fun and I don't. I don't contemplate the minutia of what its system will look like, or the longevity this game could bring for me in the long term. I play DCUO because its fun to me now, just like I played SWG while it was fun for me then, and why I'll play RIFT because I enjoyed my time in Beta.
To summarize, I think there are these people out there, those that are looking for games with the slow progression, with character based skills, and long term goals. These players that look at DCUO and scoff and say "That game is shallow, and made for consoles." and write it off because a game like that just "can't be fun" and my OP is a way to just cut to the chase. It accentuates the nuances of the combat system, and tries to soften the blow to the self proclaimed "Oldschoolers" that this game may just not be for them.
Do they "get it" ? Some do. Those that do don't knock the game because they don't like it, they just move on. Others verbally denounce the game and impose an ultimatum or they'll take their business elsewhere. "Fix this, this, and that, or you won't see me playing this game again."
If some people take offense to my OP I can't say that some offense wasn't intended, but I will say that the ideas behind it were more to catch the glance of these posters more-so then to incite hostility.
So its basically an mmo fighting game. I will confess that makes me very interested in this title.
No... No, it isn't.
Its actually a fairly unique title which I think people are going to have to try. Some people are going to love it, some are not, but the combat is going to be a make or break it thing for a lot of people. I am sure tons of people are expecting EQ/DAoC type combat out of this game... I was... I got a hybrid of console action with mmorpg skill sets.
Truth is yes, you are going to need to be far more active in combat than you ever were in the other MMORPGs. But saying it is a button masher or a fighting game are both way off base. It is neither. There is quite a bit of depth to the game and to the combat, but if you choose to just button mash that will get you by for a little while... Its going to fail you soon enough though, and you're going to need to learn how to operate the system as it is intended to be operated.
Its actually a fairly unique title which I think people are going to have to try. Some people are going to love it, some are not, but the combat is going to be a make or break it thing for a lot of people. I am sure tons of people are expecting EQ/DAoC type combat out of this game... I was... I got a hybrid of console action with mmorpg skill sets.
Truth is yes, you are going to need to be far more active in combat than you ever were in the other MMORPGs. But saying it is a button masher or a fighting game are both way off base. It is neither. There is quite a bit of depth to the game and to the combat, but if you choose to just button mash that will get you by for a little while... Its going to fail you soon enough though, and you're going to need to learn how to operate the system as it is intended to be operated.
I play virtua fighter. Its not a button masher. And if dcuo's combat has even 1/4th of the depth of vf4 i will preorder that ish right now.
With the most recent patch, some definite movement toward a new Trinity appears to be occurring, and it's one that some in the DCUO community are not happy about.
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuopc/posts/list.m?topic_id=3953
Regarding skill and such, well, everyone wants to believe that the game they've chosen to play takes "skill". They often denigrate other players and games to prove that point, when from my perspective, most of them are very similar in the required overall innate human "skill" they are talking about, they just use different rulesets. Traditional MMO combat, versus action game combat, versus FPS style combat. They all work differently, but within the context of each, there are more "skilled" players, and less skilled.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
By "oldschool" do you mean people who played everquest or WoW and can't imagine anything else?
Because I was block countering in Tekken and street fighter etc when some of these people playing these games were in diapers.
Also DDO had block and roll years and dodgable spell years ago.
One thing about this combat system that needs some help is the indicators. Some things that are "hold" have a cast bar and some don't. There is little rhyme or reason to it.
Some attack put an indicator over the head and some things don't. Perhaps I am missing the other indicators, but mainly only heavy hitting damaging stuff gets an obvious icon. The first hand blast hold right mouse button shows a casting bar. But the same thing in Martial Arts has no casting bar. Why? Makes no sense.
I wish they would take a cue from Champions Online and have ALL charged/Hold attacks of certain type put a specific icon over the guys head. In CO you know they are charging and you know they are charging a Hold or an AOE by the icon. The DCU system clearly works the same way, but with some added rock paper scissors stuff. But the indicators are not very good yet. Or they need to be explained better. Again something CO does in its tutorial better than DCU. As they explain blocking AND what the various icons mean. Rather than just having one icon.
To bad you have to have a subcription to those forums if you dont have a sign in you cant read the post, I guess since I did not buy the preorder i only have access to the beta area.
I find it funny that some people think that "twitch gameplay" will somehow even out the gaming experience by introducing skill over powerleveling. Twitch gameplay is just as much of a time sink as the "old school" method of levling up. You need to practice over and over to get good, higher level players will still have the advantage over those of lower levels. The only difference is the more chaotic gameplay in these types of MMOs, it's like real time strategy VS turn based strategy.
@ Rohn and Erictlewis: The thread basically covers the idea of class dependency and how they expect more groups requiring the use of particular classes similar to the trinity to complete higher level content. This is not evident in the current game, as power still regenerates quite frequently through combos. With as much as they tweaked it, they really haven't changed much in the way of mechanics, just messed with the sliders. The only real major portion of the combat they changed is now you accrue power over time instead of power per hit.
Granted balancing will still need to be done, and I won't even lie, they'll be balancing for the first year at least. As stated they have the other power set frameworks already in the game, they just don't have them activated, but they are part of the beta client, so its only a matter of time before they add the new sets. Mob difficulty will be scaled, and weapon skill trees will still be tweaked as they've done the past 4 patches. It will take them a while to hit the mark, but I've never seen perfect game balance... ever really.
@ Gestalt: If you are talking about PvE, yes they only show indicators for most mobs signature moves, but not all mobs use signature moves that have effects, some of them just have those as part of their power sets. For example some of brainiacs forces can encase you in a hold, but there is no tell on when they will do it, so you could be in the middle of a combo and never get to finish it, while the rhino beastiamorphs will display an attack sign before they charge, and that charge is unblockable.
It would be kind of nice to have some sort of indicator, but after you play the game for a week or so, you learn enough of the mobs and their capabilities. You may get hit with the off hand surprise but it doesn't seem to be a game breaker.
As for the HandBlast and Martial Arts thing, they are not the same moves. Hand Blasts is a charged move, while Martial Arts is essentially a hold without a charge. You don't have to fully charge the attack for it to fire. One handed weapons have a charge also, while dual pistols doesn't. Its just the differences between the skill types. While hand blasts may take a bit more for a charged block breaker, they are one of the few weapon skills that have ranged combo blockbreakers.