You are far from the first to say this, but here is why you are wrong.
Examples such as DAOC are a rare gem of an amazing PVP MMO. In DAOC you have many examples of out geared or out numbered groups going out and just dominating. Look up videos on Lagged Again or Free RPS. DAOC is the reason why I hold onto the faith that MMO's can have good skilled based PVP, actually its not even faith because DAOC proved it to exist.
I agree with you that DaoC is the best RvR PvP in a MMO so far, same goes for Guildwars with arenas.
But I always felt that PvP in MMOs could be more than it is today. I think part of the problem is that MMOs are so gear based today, when the player with best gear more or less win every time it feels kinda pointless to me.
OP have a point, PvP needs improving and while PvE do the same most MMOs are focused on PvE and just added PvP as a second thought.
I think we will need new mechanics and less gear dependence to make PvP and PvE work better together.
Things have changed since DaoC came out and not for the better. I have some hopes for GW2 and WoDO, I hope one of them wioll make PvP more fun again.
for me PVP in mmos is a feature, my dearest feature, but not more important than any other, MMOs have a lot of interaction with other players (trade, crafting, raids, guild...) and pvp is another one. You spend month sharpening your sharacter skills, trying every combination, why not see how does it fare with other players? It´s fun, if taken healthy, it has a whole new mecanics if compared to fps´s, no better no worse, just diferent.
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
1 Faction PvP: Reds v Blues (eg RvR: DAOC, WAR etc)
2 Arena PvP: Team5 vs Team5 (eg scenarios WAR, arenas Guild Wars) etc...
3 Open PvP: Areas that are free-for-for (eg EvE, some other open-pvp titles...)
Each provides a different experience and gameplay.
1. Is about armies and keeps and territorial control etc that may or may not access stuff for PvE as a reward and could be made a bit like RTS with resources and choke points etc but obviously lots of players controlling sides.
2. Is about the type of strategy in eg football or fireteams in squads in the army eg and is most similar to FPS.
3. Is about MMO immersion and makes up for predictable AI and oc is controversial but Eve demonstrates that it IS something that can make MMOs a really strong experience and not be game-breaking.
Next come all the problems of PvP in MMOs...
Edit: Agree with Kenaoshi, it's how PvP is just another feature (choices) that makes MMO PvP best for me.
Just want to hear your thoughts about this, since I have been thinking about it myself quite a lot lately.
I ll try to be brief.
When I am playing against other players, there are many games where skill is, given decent ping on both sides, pretty much the only thing that matters. Many games come to my mind: Starcraft, Tekken, Quake, Medal of Honor, Soul Calibur... And then I realize that none of them is an MMO.
And then you got MMOs. Wether you like it or not, skill is hardly ever what determines the outcome of the fight. Gear, group numbers, FOTM builds, class imbalance, these are very often the factors that determine who wins, and skill almost always comes in second place.
And then, on top of that, you see PVP lovers complaining so often about PVE beeing boring and about having to grind PVE in order to be competitive in PVP, and PVE lovers complaining about newbye ganking, corpse camping and similar griefing activities.
Then why are some players loving MMO PVPing so much? Enduring beeing owned while you are low level or still undergeared and then, once actually ready for PVP, fighting fights where skill is only a secondary factor does not sound too exciting to me. Specially when there are so many games out there that allow you to simply log in and fight tons of players almost inmediatelly and where skill is the main factor determining who wins.
I am not trying to be sarcastic or starting a flame war. I just don't get what's so much fun about PVP in MMOs. Honestly.
Please discuss.
I will take FPS action because ping itself works only for hitscan weapons, even so MMORPGs are skill spamming fests circulating around character stats and equipment. FPS leagues and divisions are the reason I stay in FPS games. They have the abilities and people to make use of technology and win beyond "ping" since they know what works and what doesn't. In short MMORPGs are more "turn based" and FPS games are more "Real-Time." You can feel as you play.
MMORPG leagues are hard to manage due to MMORPG Genre restrictions. Your character existing in one server means that your max action exposure possible in a league is 1/x where x is the total number of mmorpg servers. It proves that you need a large population, built up a certain way to experience the action in the MMO Genre, while in the shooter genre a small population can join in a lot of the action.
The reason people love MMORPG PvP is because they are cowards. They can't cut it in a real game where "Fair" action governed by skill exists. They love the excuse of saying "I earned my stuff, so its fair" attitude and always love behind their equipment. These are the very same players who act big and mighty in an online game, but are bullied and oppressed in the real world and prefer to burn their years away.
The will of a Champion is not "winning" the title, but "Defending it" after acquisition. The will of facing many opponents gunning for your title, knowing that coming in there is an equal shot by top players to win governing expertise and skill over statistics. I know this very well from experience. It has lead me to winning a lot in cash and prizes in tournaments, while most an MMORPG gamer can expect to win these days is selling their equipment on Ebay when they are finished playing in hopes of recovering lost money or making a profit on something found.
MMOs are bad place for PvP *fun*. PvP *fun* is game withing game, it detracts from the world feeling, it makes PvP without satisfaction and consequences. This is where the PvP fans are all wrong, they want to zerg and gank nonstop but it makes the PvP hollow.
So no. MMOs are not good place for PvP fun. They can be good place for engaging multifaceted PvP conflict though. Not being fair is one of it's facets.
Edit: I like the response above, the stress on defense instead of aggression, the aim for the broadest challenge. Sounds so natural to PvP and yet so distant from what we see in MMOs.
The difference between mmo and/or fps/rts pvp as stated in previous posts are the end result of said battle/skirmish . True pvp should reward victors with short/long term rewards affecting(effecting?) character development out of said battles.
When was the last time you played any FPS on the market today? There are levels, countless upgrades earned through PvP, temporary and longer lasting buffs earned, titles, etc. Where is the line between them anymore? Stop arguing semantics and stick to the point of the question.
Ok the reason why PVP in an MMO RPG exists in some cases is to add realistic principles to the game. In real life there are murderers and terrorists for a living game world to be more "living" they implement a pvp system in it. most games go on the scale of WoW which use it for a way to show the struggle between two sides.the idea that checks and balances need to be made really take the realistic idea away from the game. In combat you will be out maned, out skilled, and gunned(GEAR).
It is finding a way to combat the enemy and win wile being in this position that you will feel bigger than the rest in many games i have used the least likely class to pk people but I also give them time to defend themselves which most will not. My question is most of the time when people don't want to experience PVP why are you on a PVP server? if the game is about PVP why are you playing the game? those are the true questions one must ask. i never feel sorry for those I defeat I fell sorry for those who choose to die with out even trying to defend.
MMO PvP are for the carebears of true PvP games. Why do you think not a single top SSFIV/BB/SC2/GGAC/SC/*list goes on* player plays MMOs for PvP?
Untrue. I do not consider myself a carebear pvper. I grew up playing counters strike, Halo, cod, rise of nations ect. But I love the mmo pvp. Why? Because is far more complex. Fps game are all the same. All that changes are the graphics. You play one you played them all. While in rpg games you have to leearn and understand your class. Months later and I still am not capable of mastering said class. You learn the weakness of other classes. It's true that gear makes a difference but if you're looking for balanced pvp in mmos you can find it. In some mmos less than others. In my opinion rpg games offer much more fun in pvp than those fps games.
MMO PvP are for the carebears of true PvP games. Why do you think not a single top SSFIV/BB/SC2/GGAC/SC/*list goes on* player plays MMOs for PvP?
Untrue. I do not consider myself a carebear pvper. I grew up playing counters strike, Halo, cod, rise of nations ect. But I love the mmo pvp. Why? Because is far more complex. Fps game are all the same. All that changes are the graphics. You play one you played them all. While in rpg games you have to leearn and understand your class. Months later and I still am not capable of mastering said class. You learn the weakness of other classes. It's true that gear makes a difference but if you're looking for balanced pvp in mmos you can find it. In some mmos less than others. In my opinion rpg games offer much more fun in pvp than those fps games.
You got a point there, but let me ask you a question:
why not RTS PVP instead? That would give you the complexity you are after (and some RTS are actually quite sick) and still a balanced game where skill is what matters.
MMO PvP are for the carebears of true PvP games. Why do you think not a single top SSFIV/BB/SC2/GGAC/SC/*list goes on* player plays MMOs for PvP?
Untrue. I do not consider myself a carebear pvper. I grew up playing counters strike, Halo, cod, rise of nations ect. But I love the mmo pvp. Why? Because is far more complex. Fps game are all the same. All that changes are the graphics. You play one you played them all. While in rpg games you have to leearn and understand your class. Months later and I still am not capable of mastering said class. You learn the weakness of other classes. It's true that gear makes a difference but if you're looking for balanced pvp in mmos you can find it. In some mmos less than others. In my opinion rpg games offer much more fun in pvp than those fps games.
You got a point there, but let me ask you a question:
why not RTS PVP instead? That would give you the complexity you are after (and some RTS are actually quite sick) and still a balanced game where skill is what matters.
and why not ALL(MMO´s, FPS, RTS) of them? why must restrain to 1 kind of entertainment?
well to be fair, i see those DOTA pvp and i think it boring, but my friends seem so happy to be able to play it on their toasters that kudos to them, but who said pvp is a religion and there must be only one true way?
...now GAMING yeah, thats a religion XD
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
To answer the title question, no no no & no, absolutly not!
The OP puts it quite nicely & I agree with the sentiment & questionning about PvP.
Heres what it boils down to:
-Its unbalanced ( cater to the weak sauce PvPers/griefers/gankers)
-Its unstable as its constantly being tweaked to counter the FOTM
-Its a nuisance to better PvE gameplay due to having to balance things out for he PvPers
-Scoreboard becomes more important than roleplay in a RPG!!! game.
All in all, I have nothing against good respectful PvP, like true RP PvP, but we all know thats far from what we have in MMO's. If rules were to be enforced, maybe we could have something decent, but enforcing rules mean less money... it wont happen anytime soon.
To addesse some posts about game with only PvE are failling, all have to say is that your are clearly not thinking straight. Every game that didn't split with PvE and PvP servers failed. Forcing everyone to play together is the best way to run your prodcut into the ground. On the other hand, games that did split their players on PvP & PvE servers generally did well.( if the game was any good ofc) Now, if we look at exclusive games, from what I know, PvE only games did just fine & generally lasted for a very long( EQ, FFXI come to mind ) whilst I don't know any decent PvP MMO that had any kind of significant success or that lasted very long.
Everyone is free to think & see whatever he wants, but nobody will ever convince me that PvP works in MMORPG's until solid very harsh penallities are being put in place & enforeced just like in real life. a.k.a. A jail for life sentance means perma banning your IP. I say let the douche & sociopath know they aren't wanted in our society.
Edit: I should have mentioned that I'm talking about FFA PvP for the most part. RvR, if split from the PvE is quite alright even if its not my thing. If its not restricted to specific zones then there needs to be split servers. Even after saying all that though, I still want to add that there's a game for everyone & if you enjoy an RvR open PvP game & don't mind having to deal with a maximum of like 100-150K player base, there's nothing wrong there.
Before some asshat comes & say "but what about EVE", we all know that something like 70% of that game pop stay in Empire space & couldn't care less about the PvP... What they want is a space sim. Not even mentionning the hoards of multiple accounts that really cuts that game real player numbers from 350k to about a maximum of 250K. Yeah I pulled those number out of my ass, but I think they are fairly accurate if not generous.
There is a reason people like to pvp in mmo even if it is totally unbalanced as you said. In a mmo you play a role in a persistant world. So that single fact put enough spice into the pvp to make it interesting, its just a more spicy dish than your usual FPS/RTS game.
But ye mmo pvp is plagued with heavy unbalance and win buttons, this might be fixed some day.
For now i don't know which of those are heavier in the balance. Personally i prefer mmo for many other reasons too apart from pvp, so. But ye sometime i play a fps just to give me back the good sensation of pvp, the one that matter : "my personal skills". But its kind of rare i must admit.
I don't care about unbalanced classes as I think it's ok for certain classes to have a certain role. If a particular class is not a fighter then that's ok.
I don't care about gear being a deciding factor. It means "get better gear".
If it's solely on skill then that's a different type of game where those who have fast reflexes can win the day.
But for those peopel who aren't wired to be fps shooter types, mmo's can give a lot of pvp fun.
Not everyone is wired to be a twitch based gamer.
For me, I find the scope mmo's to be far more interesting than just grabbing a gun and shooting. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love shooters but I love games where tactics, planning can win the day, getter equipment, better resources, etc.
Then again, I suppose games like starcraft might fit that bill. Not interested in Star Craft.
Essentialy the most pvp fun I've ever had were eithe full Warhammer skirmishes, Lineage 2 alliance vs allaince battles or the Lineage 2 sieges.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
As a pvp game it's a failure. All you do are random bgs that have no effect on any part of the game.
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
Exactly my point. It's a PVE game, yet anything but a failure.
I agree with you that DaoC is the best RvR PvP in a MMO so far, same goes for Guildwars with arenas.
But I always felt that PvP in MMOs could be more than it is today. I think part of the problem is that MMOs are so gear based today, when the player with best gear more or less win every time it feels kinda pointless to me.
OP have a point, PvP needs improving and while PvE do the same most MMOs are focused on PvE and just added PvP as a second thought.
I think we will need new mechanics and less gear dependence to make PvP and PvE work better together.
Things have changed since DaoC came out and not for the better. I have some hopes for GW2 and WoDO, I hope one of them wioll make PvP more fun again.
That goes for most other MMOs as well.
True it does have 10 million people mindlessly killing 10 of every mob in the game for experience.
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
for me PVP in mmos is a feature, my dearest feature, but not more important than any other, MMOs have a lot of interaction with other players (trade, crafting, raids, guild...) and pvp is another one. You spend month sharpening your sharacter skills, trying every combination, why not see how does it fare with other players? It´s fun, if taken healthy, it has a whole new mecanics if compared to fps´s, no better no worse, just diferent.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
In MMOs you have:
1 Faction PvP: Reds v Blues (eg RvR: DAOC, WAR etc)
2 Arena PvP: Team5 vs Team5 (eg scenarios WAR, arenas Guild Wars) etc...
3 Open PvP: Areas that are free-for-for (eg EvE, some other open-pvp titles...)
Each provides a different experience and gameplay.
1. Is about armies and keeps and territorial control etc that may or may not access stuff for PvE as a reward and could be made a bit like RTS with resources and choke points etc but obviously lots of players controlling sides.
2. Is about the type of strategy in eg football or fireteams in squads in the army eg and is most similar to FPS.
3. Is about MMO immersion and makes up for predictable AI and oc is controversial but Eve demonstrates that it IS something that can make MMOs a really strong experience and not be game-breaking.
Next come all the problems of PvP in MMOs...
Edit: Agree with Kenaoshi, it's how PvP is just another feature (choices) that makes MMO PvP best for me.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I will take FPS action because ping itself works only for hitscan weapons, even so MMORPGs are skill spamming fests circulating around character stats and equipment. FPS leagues and divisions are the reason I stay in FPS games. They have the abilities and people to make use of technology and win beyond "ping" since they know what works and what doesn't. In short MMORPGs are more "turn based" and FPS games are more "Real-Time." You can feel as you play.
MMORPG leagues are hard to manage due to MMORPG Genre restrictions. Your character existing in one server means that your max action exposure possible in a league is 1/x where x is the total number of mmorpg servers. It proves that you need a large population, built up a certain way to experience the action in the MMO Genre, while in the shooter genre a small population can join in a lot of the action.
The reason people love MMORPG PvP is because they are cowards. They can't cut it in a real game where "Fair" action governed by skill exists. They love the excuse of saying "I earned my stuff, so its fair" attitude and always love behind their equipment. These are the very same players who act big and mighty in an online game, but are bullied and oppressed in the real world and prefer to burn their years away.
The will of a Champion is not "winning" the title, but "Defending it" after acquisition. The will of facing many opponents gunning for your title, knowing that coming in there is an equal shot by top players to win governing expertise and skill over statistics. I know this very well from experience. It has lead me to winning a lot in cash and prizes in tournaments, while most an MMORPG gamer can expect to win these days is selling their equipment on Ebay when they are finished playing in hopes of recovering lost money or making a profit on something found.
MMOs are bad place for PvP *fun*. PvP *fun* is game withing game, it detracts from the world feeling, it makes PvP without satisfaction and consequences. This is where the PvP fans are all wrong, they want to zerg and gank nonstop but it makes the PvP hollow.
So no. MMOs are not good place for PvP fun. They can be good place for engaging multifaceted PvP conflict though. Not being fair is one of it's facets.
Edit: I like the response above, the stress on defense instead of aggression, the aim for the broadest challenge. Sounds so natural to PvP and yet so distant from what we see in MMOs.
When was the last time you played any FPS on the market today? There are levels, countless upgrades earned through PvP, temporary and longer lasting buffs earned, titles, etc. Where is the line between them anymore? Stop arguing semantics and stick to the point of the question.
Ok the reason why PVP in an MMO RPG exists in some cases is to add realistic principles to the game. In real life there are murderers and terrorists for a living game world to be more "living" they implement a pvp system in it. most games go on the scale of WoW which use it for a way to show the struggle between two sides.the idea that checks and balances need to be made really take the realistic idea away from the game. In combat you will be out maned, out skilled, and gunned(GEAR).
It is finding a way to combat the enemy and win wile being in this position that you will feel bigger than the rest in many games i have used the least likely class to pk people but I also give them time to defend themselves which most will not. My question is most of the time when people don't want to experience PVP why are you on a PVP server? if the game is about PVP why are you playing the game? those are the true questions one must ask. i never feel sorry for those I defeat I fell sorry for those who choose to die with out even trying to defend.
Untrue. I do not consider myself a carebear pvper. I grew up playing counters strike, Halo, cod, rise of nations ect. But I love the mmo pvp. Why? Because is far more complex. Fps game are all the same. All that changes are the graphics. You play one you played them all. While in rpg games you have to leearn and understand your class. Months later and I still am not capable of mastering said class. You learn the weakness of other classes. It's true that gear makes a difference but if you're looking for balanced pvp in mmos you can find it. In some mmos less than others. In my opinion rpg games offer much more fun in pvp than those fps games.
You got a point there, but let me ask you a question:
why not RTS PVP instead? That would give you the complexity you are after (and some RTS are actually quite sick) and still a balanced game where skill is what matters.
and why not ALL(MMO´s, FPS, RTS) of them? why must restrain to 1 kind of entertainment?
well to be fair, i see those DOTA pvp and i think it boring, but my friends seem so happy to be able to play it on their toasters that kudos to them, but who said pvp is a religion and there must be only one true way?
...now GAMING yeah, thats a religion XD
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
I enjoy DAOC & Iris Online PvP. Both of these games has fast paced pvp action in an open zone map
To answer the title question, no no no & no, absolutly not!
The OP puts it quite nicely & I agree with the sentiment & questionning about PvP.
Heres what it boils down to:
-Its unbalanced ( cater to the weak sauce PvPers/griefers/gankers)
-Its unstable as its constantly being tweaked to counter the FOTM
-Its a nuisance to better PvE gameplay due to having to balance things out for he PvPers
-Scoreboard becomes more important than roleplay in a RPG!!! game.
All in all, I have nothing against good respectful PvP, like true RP PvP, but we all know thats far from what we have in MMO's. If rules were to be enforced, maybe we could have something decent, but enforcing rules mean less money... it wont happen anytime soon.
To addesse some posts about game with only PvE are failling, all have to say is that your are clearly not thinking straight. Every game that didn't split with PvE and PvP servers failed. Forcing everyone to play together is the best way to run your prodcut into the ground. On the other hand, games that did split their players on PvP & PvE servers generally did well.( if the game was any good ofc) Now, if we look at exclusive games, from what I know, PvE only games did just fine & generally lasted for a very long( EQ, FFXI come to mind ) whilst I don't know any decent PvP MMO that had any kind of significant success or that lasted very long.
Everyone is free to think & see whatever he wants, but nobody will ever convince me that PvP works in MMORPG's until solid very harsh penallities are being put in place & enforeced just like in real life. a.k.a. A jail for life sentance means perma banning your IP. I say let the douche & sociopath know they aren't wanted in our society.
Edit: I should have mentioned that I'm talking about FFA PvP for the most part. RvR, if split from the PvE is quite alright even if its not my thing. If its not restricted to specific zones then there needs to be split servers. Even after saying all that though, I still want to add that there's a game for everyone & if you enjoy an RvR open PvP game & don't mind having to deal with a maximum of like 100-150K player base, there's nothing wrong there.
Before some asshat comes & say "but what about EVE", we all know that something like 70% of that game pop stay in Empire space & couldn't care less about the PvP... What they want is a space sim. Not even mentionning the hoards of multiple accounts that really cuts that game real player numbers from 350k to about a maximum of 250K. Yeah I pulled those number out of my ass, but I think they are fairly accurate if not generous.
This is all my opinion & nothing else. Ty
There is a reason people like to pvp in mmo even if it is totally unbalanced as you said. In a mmo you play a role in a persistant world. So that single fact put enough spice into the pvp to make it interesting, its just a more spicy dish than your usual FPS/RTS game.
But ye mmo pvp is plagued with heavy unbalance and win buttons, this might be fixed some day.
For now i don't know which of those are heavier in the balance. Personally i prefer mmo for many other reasons too apart from pvp, so. But ye sometime i play a fps just to give me back the good sensation of pvp, the one that matter : "my personal skills". But its kind of rare i must admit.
I think it's fine.
I don't care about unbalanced classes as I think it's ok for certain classes to have a certain role. If a particular class is not a fighter then that's ok.
I don't care about gear being a deciding factor. It means "get better gear".
If it's solely on skill then that's a different type of game where those who have fast reflexes can win the day.
But for those peopel who aren't wired to be fps shooter types, mmo's can give a lot of pvp fun.
Not everyone is wired to be a twitch based gamer.
For me, I find the scope mmo's to be far more interesting than just grabbing a gun and shooting. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love shooters but I love games where tactics, planning can win the day, getter equipment, better resources, etc.
Then again, I suppose games like starcraft might fit that bill. Not interested in Star Craft.
Essentialy the most pvp fun I've ever had were eithe full Warhammer skirmishes, Lineage 2 alliance vs allaince battles or the Lineage 2 sieges.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo