You still live in the "world of release"? Could you catch up to the present state of the game? Particulary
"They might improve the game to the point that it actually becomes playable and you don't have to settle for the bugs that plague the game."
Which, as you don't know, is what we call past.
People still get stuck in walls or ceilings and die.
I never said they don't. Odd player will be stuck here and there, but its more like a small % of what it used to be. Actually, being stuck from time to time is most severe thing that can happen to you now.
Warhammer didn't kill me with bugs, neither did AoC, nor did Champions or STO. Fallen Earth beta didn't...Perpetuum didn't...Wizard 101 didn't...the Rift beta didn't...Myst Online didn't...neither did WoW for that matter. Link Realms beta hasn't killed me with any bugs...and in 78 hours of play, Global Agenda didn't kill me one time with any bugs. The list could go on.
If the game were free or even if it weren't Full Loot PvP, getting killed by walls wouldn't matter. Actually, the full loot thing doesn't matter. It's that they are charging full price for an incomplete product and have been ever since the game released. MO is an extreme example of a company charging for an incomplete game at launch.
The most severe thing that can happen in any MMO is getting killed, but getting killed by a bug in the game is not acceptable. It's certainly not acceptable to charge for the experience. This is why MO has such a small player base.
That's an interesting fantasy story. But that's all it is - pure fantasy. We don't live in a perfect world.
Though I can probably find many, many concrete examples of player death in most of the games you've listed (and I know I've personally died a number of times in WAR and AoC due to clipping problems, memory-leak induced crashes, and bugged instances), I'll respond with a more apples to apples comparison. EvE, another FFA PvP full loot sandbox game.
Take a look at some of the issues resulting in character death in these posts, if you will.
Just a small handful of examples. There are a LOT more, as earlier this year (probably starting with Dominion) EvE had a very significant problem with the servers that resulted in people losing ships and equipment worth hundreds of millions, if not billions, of ISK.
This is EvE and CCP we're talking about, one of the most respected games and game companies out there. A game with literally years worth of expansions and refinement under its belt. And characters have died in that game due to bugs.
But, things like this should never happen. Right? People being killed by hackers should never happen, either. No one should ever be able to use exploits. Correct?
Well, all these things do happen, even in the supposedly perfect games you've mentioned above, as they do in one of the best games currently available, EvE.
Contrary to the perception some of the critics are trying to reinforce, bugs and other problems are not unique to Mortal Online. Moreover, since launch, most of these kinds of problems have been dramatically reduced within the game. They are not the ubiquitous and gamebreaking occurrences many of the perception managers want to make people believe.
Of course, MO and every other game should be working hard to make their games as well polished and bug-free as possible. Again, there are some people here hellbent on trying to convince others that SV has made no progress with MO. From my perspective, this is simply wrong, as I've seen a great deal of improvement since launch. They still have more to do, but the game actually has been improving.
You still live in the "world of release"? Could you catch up to the present state of the game? Particulary
"They might improve the game to the point that it actually becomes playable and you don't have to settle for the bugs that plague the game."
Which, as you don't know, is what we call past.
People still get stuck in walls or ceilings and die.
I never said they don't. Odd player will be stuck here and there, but its more like a small % of what it used to be. Actually, being stuck from time to time is most severe thing that can happen to you now.
Warhammer didn't kill me with bugs, neither did AoC, nor did Champions or STO. Fallen Earth beta didn't...Perpetuum didn't...Wizard 101 didn't...the Rift beta didn't...Myst Online didn't...neither did WoW for that matter. Link Realms beta hasn't killed me with any bugs...and in 78 hours of play, Global Agenda didn't kill me one time with any bugs. The list could go on.
If the game were free or even if it weren't Full Loot PvP, getting killed by walls wouldn't matter. Actually, the full loot thing doesn't matter. It's that they are charging full price for an incomplete product and have been ever since the game released. MO is an extreme example of a company charging for an incomplete game at launch.
The most severe thing that can happen in any MMO is getting killed, but getting killed by a bug in the game is not acceptable. It's certainly not acceptable to charge for the experience. This is why MO has such a small player base.
That's an interesting fantasy story. But that's all it is - pure fantasy. We don't live in a perfect world.
Though I can probably find many, many concrete examples of player death in most of the games you've listed (and I know I've personally died a number of times in WAR and AoC due to clipping problems, memory-leak induced crashes, and bugged instances), I'll respond with a more apples to apples comparison. EvE, another FFA PvP full loot sandbox game.
Take a look at some of the issues resulting in character death in these posts, if you will.
Just a small handful of examples. There are a LOT more, as earlier this year (probably starting with Dominion) EvE had a very significant problem with the servers that resulted in people losing ships and equipment worth hundreds of millions, if not billions, of ISK.
This is EvE and CCP we're talking about, one of the most respected games and game companies out there. A game with literally years worth of expansions and refinement under its belt. And characters have died in that game due to bugs.
But, things like this should never happen. Right? People being killed by hackers should never happen, either. No one should ever be able to use exploits. Correct?
Well, all these things do happen, even in the supposedly perfect games you've mentioned above, as they do in one of the best games currently available, EvE.
Contrary to the perception some of the critics are trying to reinforce, bugs and other problems are not unique to Mortal Online. Moreover, since launch, most of these kinds of problems have been dramatically reduced within the game. They are not the ubiquitous and gamebreaking occurrences many of the perception managers want to make people believe.
Of course, MO and every other game should be working hard to make their games as well polished and bug-free as possible. Again, there are some people here hellbent on trying to convince others that SV has made no progress with MO. From my perspective, this is simply wrong, as I've seen a great deal of improvement since launch. They still have more to do, but the game actually has been improving.
Don't forget the EVE expansion that deleted everyone's boot.ini file... Anyone who says EVE is even slightly bug-free should try saying so on EVE's forums, they'll be laughed out.
...and yet, somehow, EVE is a fun and respectable game... hmm...
You still live in the "world of release"? Could you catch up to the present state of the game? Particulary
"They might improve the game to the point that it actually becomes playable and you don't have to settle for the bugs that plague the game."
Which, as you don't know, is what we call past.
People still get stuck in walls or ceilings and die.
I never said they don't. Odd player will be stuck here and there, but its more like a small % of what it used to be. Actually, being stuck from time to time is most severe thing that can happen to you now.
Warhammer didn't kill me with bugs, neither did AoC, nor did Champions or STO. Fallen Earth beta didn't...Perpetuum didn't...Wizard 101 didn't...the Rift beta didn't...Myst Online didn't...neither did WoW for that matter. Link Realms beta hasn't killed me with any bugs...and in 78 hours of play, Global Agenda didn't kill me one time with any bugs. The list could go on.
If the game were free or even if it weren't Full Loot PvP, getting killed by walls wouldn't matter. Actually, the full loot thing doesn't matter. It's that they are charging full price for an incomplete product and have been ever since the game released. MO is an extreme example of a company charging for an incomplete game at launch.
The most severe thing that can happen in any MMO is getting killed, but getting killed by a bug in the game is not acceptable. It's certainly not acceptable to charge for the experience. This is why MO has such a small player base.
Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died.
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died.
Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
You kind of made my point, " the last group of people I liked playing with went off the game (~60 accounts closed), some went to Darkfall, some to Perpetuum. I went to Perpetuum with a good chunk of our guild, and we'll grow from there." How many went to WOW ? I'm not saying Cataclysm and other upcoming MMOs will have no impact on MO, just that the impact will be very limited. MO, Darkfall, EVE and Perpetuum more or less all fit the same "niche" in the MMO genre.
Your post from the other thread (the one I quoted in the OP) reads like you are trying to set MO up against the 6 million pound gorilla (WOW) instead of the more accurate comparisons. Compared to WOW, MO is a failure. Compared to other games in the same niche, not so much. I've seen population estimates for Darkfall ranging from 3,000 to 20,000 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/285610/page/1 with 12,000 being an estimate several months ago from the a list of clan memberships (sorry can't find that thread). Perpetuum has a total 4,891 registered forum members. Reliable estimates of MO's population are hard to come by, but it's somewhere in this neighborhood.
As for forum population, there are 108 viewing right now, so if there was a spike in viewers due to the latest patch (as slapshot said) then it seems to be persistent.
As to multiple subscriptions, was the three month subscription on your second account. If so, I don't understand why you bought multiple accounts, paid for 3 months in advance on one of them, then did a chargeback on only one of the accounts. If it was someone else's account, they really should keep in mind that you don't give out your passwords to anyone.
"funny elements like Xbox and PS3 control support, max 16 players" How does this reflect on the programming at Starvault? These are almost certainly legacy elements from the Unreal engine. Taking them out has the potential to cause unexpected problems and the only benefit it would provide is making the game 1-2 MB smaller (and maybe eliminate some weird behavior if you have one of those controllers connected to your computer and actually push the buttons while playing)
How many went to WoW? About 14-15 people went back to WoW and linked up with our guild's chapter there. 15 out of ~150-200 players we had going around throughout MO isn't much, I'll give you that.
I do believe however that you're reading my post the way you describe because you percieve it as an attack on your beloved game, so you're getting defensive. It's ludicrous to even begin to compare Blizzard and Starvault, let alone MO and WoW and that's obvious to everyone. I picked Cataclysm as the textbook example because its "THE one" expansion everyone seems hyped about that's just releasing/released.
Also, by saying "~100" I mean "around 100". That covers the 122 viewing the forum, nevermind more then half of them are guests and not actual forum users.
Also, I have never owned a second MO account (besides my GM account, and yes I get permission to have a miner on that one). I do believe I explained before that the account was purchased for 5-6$ with remaining sub time on the account. Naturally I had and still do have access to 2-3 subbed accounts.
Back to the population question - It's not even a question. Repeatedly throughout SV's Closed Beta (when they still talked to the community and their posts didn't need to be verified by the CM before they were posted) the Devs said numerous times they need around ~13,000 subscriptions to break even and continue developing the game.
Do they have 10,000-13,000 subs? No. They don't. Therefore, discussion is immaterial. It doesn't matter if they have the potential to increase their subs by 50% and go up to ~150 (or 500 for fanboy-perspectives), it still doesn't pay the bills. Case closed innit?
Originally posted by Derpidum Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Derpidum
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Derpidum
Originally posted by lizardbones
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Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died. World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died. Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
?
My statement stands. None of those games killed me with a bug at any time. All of those games have more subscribers than MO. Is it because MO targets a smaller audience than those games, or is it because it's been so poorly implemented?
My other statement stands. The bugs they wrote into the game were so bad, they are plagued by the fact that they even existed in the first place, whether they have fixed them or not.
None of this examines whether MO is a niche game or not. It certainly seems like a niche game to me. It also seems like they are trying to broaden their appeal a little bit. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died.
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died.
Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
?
My statement stands. None of those games killed me with a bug at any time. All of those games have more subscribers than MO. Is it because MO targets a smaller audience than those games, or is it because it's been so poorly implemented?
My other statement stands. The bugs they wrote into the game were so bad, they are plagued by the fact that they even existed in the first place, whether they have fixed them or not.
None of this examines whether MO is a niche game or not. It certainly seems like a niche game to me. It also seems like they are trying to broaden their appeal a little bit. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the game.
My statement also stands. I've never had a character die as a result of being caught in a wall or roof. So....
You're still alluding to bug problems, implying they are gamebreaking, without giving specifics, severity, or frequency. That is rumormongering, plain and simple. For bugs that have been fixed, then the problem is solved.
And, if you're denying that characters have been killed in the other games you listed as a result of bugs, that position is simply not supported by reality or history, for which actual proof has already been provided.
MO is a niche game, in that its target audience is a fairly small subset of the overall MMO community.
Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died. World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died. Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
? My statement stands. None of those games killed me with a bug at any time. All of those games have more subscribers than MO. Is it because MO targets a smaller audience than those games, or is it because it's been so poorly implemented?
My other statement stands. The bugs they wrote into the game were so bad, they are plagued by the fact that they even existed in the first place, whether they have fixed them or not.
None of this examines whether MO is a niche game or not. It certainly seems like a niche game to me. It also seems like they are trying to broaden their appeal a little bit. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the game.
My statement also stands. I've never had a character die as a result of being caught in a wall or roof. So.... You're still alluding to bug problems, implying they are gamebreaking, without giving specifics, severity, or frequency. That is rumormongering, plain and simple. For bugs that have been fixed, then the problem is solved. And, if you're denying that characters have been killed in the other games you listed as a result of bugs, that position is simply not supported by reality or history, for which actual proof has already been provided. MO is a niche game, in that its target audience is a fairly small subset of the overall MMO community.
I'm pretty sure the people who had to experience the playability and the incredible lack of features in Mortal Online have already made the case for the lack of development there.
So, you are saying that it's the number of people that MO targeted to play their game that gives them 1k (this is a generous number btw) or fewer subs? Their implementation of their idea has nothing to do with it?
*edit* Got rid of a lot of quote boxes. Also, it's almost Christmas! :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
That's an interesting fantasy story. But that's all it is - pure fantasy. We don't live in a perfect world.
Though I can probably find many, many concrete examples of player death in most of the games you've listed (and I know I've personally died a number of times in WAR and AoC due to clipping problems, memory-leak induced crashes, and bugged instances), I'll respond with a more apples to apples comparison. EvE, another FFA PvP full loot sandbox game.
Take a look at some of the issues resulting in character death in these posts, if you will.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/297837/page/1
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1367241/page/6#151
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1400246/page/1
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1352987/page/1#29
Just a small handful of examples. There are a LOT more, as earlier this year (probably starting with Dominion) EvE had a very significant problem with the servers that resulted in people losing ships and equipment worth hundreds of millions, if not billions, of ISK.
http://eve-search.com/thread/1338038#1
http://eve-search.com/thread/1337771#1
This is EvE and CCP we're talking about, one of the most respected games and game companies out there. A game with literally years worth of expansions and refinement under its belt. And characters have died in that game due to bugs.
But, things like this should never happen. Right? People being killed by hackers should never happen, either. No one should ever be able to use exploits. Correct?
Well, all these things do happen, even in the supposedly perfect games you've mentioned above, as they do in one of the best games currently available, EvE.
Contrary to the perception some of the critics are trying to reinforce, bugs and other problems are not unique to Mortal Online. Moreover, since launch, most of these kinds of problems have been dramatically reduced within the game. They are not the ubiquitous and gamebreaking occurrences many of the perception managers want to make people believe.
Of course, MO and every other game should be working hard to make their games as well polished and bug-free as possible. Again, there are some people here hellbent on trying to convince others that SV has made no progress with MO. From my perspective, this is simply wrong, as I've seen a great deal of improvement since launch. They still have more to do, but the game actually has been improving.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Don't forget the EVE expansion that deleted everyone's boot.ini file... Anyone who says EVE is even slightly bug-free should try saying so on EVE's forums, they'll be laughed out.
...and yet, somehow, EVE is a fun and respectable game... hmm...
Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died.
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died.
Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
How many went to WoW? About 14-15 people went back to WoW and linked up with our guild's chapter there. 15 out of ~150-200 players we had going around throughout MO isn't much, I'll give you that.
I do believe however that you're reading my post the way you describe because you percieve it as an attack on your beloved game, so you're getting defensive. It's ludicrous to even begin to compare Blizzard and Starvault, let alone MO and WoW and that's obvious to everyone. I picked Cataclysm as the textbook example because its "THE one" expansion everyone seems hyped about that's just releasing/released.
Also, by saying "~100" I mean "around 100". That covers the 122 viewing the forum, nevermind more then half of them are guests and not actual forum users.
Also, I have never owned a second MO account (besides my GM account, and yes I get permission to have a miner on that one). I do believe I explained before that the account was purchased for 5-6$ with remaining sub time on the account. Naturally I had and still do have access to 2-3 subbed accounts.
Back to the population question - It's not even a question. Repeatedly throughout SV's Closed Beta (when they still talked to the community and their posts didn't need to be verified by the CM before they were posted) the Devs said numerous times they need around ~13,000 subscriptions to break even and continue developing the game.
Do they have 10,000-13,000 subs? No. They don't. Therefore, discussion is immaterial. It doesn't matter if they have the potential to increase their subs by 50% and go up to ~150 (or 500 for fanboy-perspectives), it still doesn't pay the bills. Case closed innit?
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Warhammer Online: Falling through the world->death. Was happening on EU servers on daily basis HELL some people were not seeing certain textures and while you stopped at the enge of the universe to look what is down someone else passed by you like there was a bridge-you took a step further and BOOM! You've felt and died.
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Infamous Dalaran-lol-I-felt-through the city and died.
Just 2 examples I know from my own experience and experience of my friend who still plays WoW to pull you out of wonderland.
?
My statement stands. None of those games killed me with a bug at any time. All of those games have more subscribers than MO. Is it because MO targets a smaller audience than those games, or is it because it's been so poorly implemented?
My other statement stands. The bugs they wrote into the game were so bad, they are plagued by the fact that they even existed in the first place, whether they have fixed them or not.
None of this examines whether MO is a niche game or not. It certainly seems like a niche game to me. It also seems like they are trying to broaden their appeal a little bit. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My statement also stands. I've never had a character die as a result of being caught in a wall or roof. So....
You're still alluding to bug problems, implying they are gamebreaking, without giving specifics, severity, or frequency. That is rumormongering, plain and simple. For bugs that have been fixed, then the problem is solved.
And, if you're denying that characters have been killed in the other games you listed as a result of bugs, that position is simply not supported by reality or history, for which actual proof has already been provided.
MO is a niche game, in that its target audience is a fairly small subset of the overall MMO community.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
[quote]Originally posted by Rohn
I'm pretty sure the people who had to experience the playability and the incredible lack of features in Mortal Online have already made the case for the lack of development there.
So, you are saying that it's the number of people that MO targeted to play their game that gives them 1k (this is a generous number btw) or fewer subs? Their implementation of their idea has nothing to do with it?
*edit* Got rid of a lot of quote boxes.
Also, it's almost Christmas! :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.