Originally posted by Rydeson BINGO Drake.. That is why they nerfed the ID system even more with 10/25 sharing the same lockout.. It's to keep the guilds from double dipping into the loot & token bin.. Blizzard needs more timesinks and slow down progression.. I'm surprised how many have bought into their bs that they are HELPING the players.. ha ha ha.. The entire ID system is nothing more then an anti-social timesink, but the sheep keep chasing that carrot.. and are thankful for it too.. /e SHOCKED.. It's almost scarey, like cult members defending their prophet..
Their customers refuse to be slowed down by the difficulty of the content. They would rather wait instead of getting beaten. Blizzard had to choose between content that was too hard for most people to participate in or reduce the rate people could consume the content by putting in road blocks. If you pay attention you'll see roadblocks all over the place though...their sneaky about it sometimes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
it add's to the game? Really? So if you have a guild of 13 for example.. How fun is it tell 3 to stay home, there is no room for them? How fun is it to try and pug 12 other slots and end up not doing anything becuause too many people are already ID'd to other raids..
please explain to me about all that fun..
edit ps.. obviously you never did raids like the ones in EQ1 or other similar games.. tisk tisk.. you don't know what you're missing..
This is probably a shock but Blizzard owns the game. They engineer it as they see fit, to please the highest number of people they can. If you're not pleased with how it works, and it's something they obviously aren't going to change (like Raid lockouts), then they didn't write the game for you and you shouldn't play it.
EQ1 started eleven years ago. Let it go...or go back and play it...see how much fun it is now.
^ this, look up the definition of the word "guild" Rydeson, actually I'll help you out. Guild - An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards. Yes there will be people that dont get to raid sometimes..OMG no what a tragedy!?! but guess what it happens and if your a part of a raid guild it will happen to you at some point in time.
Of course it sucks to not be able to raid every week but thats why you are a "guild" and you work together as a "guild", for the benefit of the "guild", to achieve mutual goals.
The whole point of a raid lockout system is so that people cant farm a boss 24/7 and get everyone geared up within a few weeks. When in a raid guild you work together to take down a boss as a "guild" if half of your guild is getting saved to other raid IDs outside of the guild I have to ask...why?
I dont see a problem with the raid lockout, WoW uses raid lockouts, while games like EQ use repawn times instead on named mobs so you cant farm them 24/7; same system different ways of going about it.
Do you really think blizzard is trying to support guild ?
Honestly if they wanted to support guilds they would have done so already !!
Guildhalls , (instances with portals hurray another method to join guilds and not suddenly leave)
Guilds reward that will be removed once you guild quit , now join a guild get reward and quit .
Cause people rage against that idea , imagine all the hard work you did stripped (lol you mean all the hard you didn´t do )
Sorry guild still has no consequences , people joining you and leaving will be a bigger nightmare now .
Cause your guild might have free mounts or pets . what will happen is that it even more alienate small communities .
And cause them to withdraw into themself , lockout sorry one reason only .
TIME SINK , cause it take longer for guilds to farm epics , no other reason TIMESINK .
"Do you really think blizzard is trying to support guild ?" And are we supposed to care about if they support it or not? whether they support it or not with guild perks or whatever doesnt stop my guild or other guilds, from completing our goals.
"Guildhalls, (instances with portals hurray another method to join guilds and not suddenly leave)" Honestly I dont give a rats ass about guildhalls, why do we even need them? what to play with furniture or to display achievements lol, who cares... I dont play this game to play house sorry. The reason Blizzard hasnt put it in the game is because its pointless!.
"Cause your guild might have free mounts or pets .what will happen is that it even more alienate small communities ." Sure it will alienate small communities but if people really REALLY wanted them..they would go for them either by joining a guild and contributing to the whole, or recruit for your guild. If my guild has special pets or mounts it will be because we WORKED FOR THEM AS A GUILD, if you dont want to do this then sorry dont know what else to tell you.
This is an MMO, there will always be things that people wont be able to get like mounts from endgame bosses, to achievements like a 25man heroic LK kill, should I whine and complain about this because as a guild we cant achieve it since we dont have the people dedicated enough to do 25mans? MMOs arent fair and not everyone will get what they want, I can live with that I guess you cant.
"Guilds reward that will be removed once you guild quit , now join a guild get reward and quit .
Cause people rage against that idea , imagine all the hard work you did stripped (lol you mean all the hard you didn´t do )" Ever heard of something called loyalty? yes there will be issues with people and you will want to quit but thats the whole point of a guild perk system is that it rewards the guilds that have members that are loyal and want to work together through the thick and thin for the benefit of all. Everything you did was for the guild and not for you get it? so why do you get to take it with you? Its called a "guild perk" for a reason.
They are trying to give people incentive to stay together as a guild and work for perks, if you want to play the "lone wolf" in a MMO (which I dont understand why you would) then your not going to get very much from it especially in WoW. Is it so bad to join a guild and work as a team?
"And cause them to withdraw into themself , lockout sorry one reason only .
TIME SINK , cause it take longer for guilds to farm epics , no other reason TIMESINK ."
ITS AN MMO!... let me say it again just in case you missed it...ITS AN MMO! THE WHOLE GENRE IS BUILT ON MASSIVE TIMESINKS SO DEVELOPERS CAN KEEP YOU PAYING AND PLAYING. Everything you do in MMOs is a timesink from crafting to questing to raiding. welcome to MMOs....
IT's an MMO?.. Some wouldn't know an MMORPG if it ran over them with 18 wheels.. Give the console gamers an internet connection and all hell breaks loose.. lol All I have to say is that Blizzard would make a terrible Dungeon Master, for those of us that grew up with REAL rpg'ing.. Actually I'm getting a visual........
Chuck says, "OMG dude, where did you find that Blizzard guy.. he sucks as a DM"
Joe responds, "He's my cousin's neighbor, and was told he's good with games"
Jerry chirps in, "well Joe, I don't know what games he's good at, but he's clueless how to be a DM"
Joe responds, "ahh c'mon guys, lets give him a chance"
Tammy pipes in, "ok, Joe, but if he tries to force me to play my character his way, I'm kicking him"
Chuck says, "agreed, I like to play my toon the way I want.. the DM is only suppose to be more a refreee and story narrator"
Jerry says, "ditto"
Joe respondes, "ok ok ok. I'll let Blizzard know what being a DM is suppose to be"
Originally posted by Rydeson IT's an MMO?.. Some wouldn't know an MMORPG if it ran over them with 18 wheels.. Give the console gamers an internet connection and all hell breaks loose.. lol All I have to say is that Blizzard would make a terrible Dungeon Master, for those of us that grew up with REAL rpg'ing.. Actually I'm getting a visual........ Chuck says, "OMG dude, where did you find that Blizzard guy.. he sucks as a DM" Joe responds, "He's my cousin's neighbor, and was told he's good with games" Jerry chirps in, "well Joe, I don't know what games he's good at, but he's clueless how to be a DM" Joe responds, "ahh c'mon guys, lets give him a chance" Tammy pipes in, "ok, Joe, but if he tries to force me to play my character his way, I'm kicking him" Chuck says, "agreed, I like to play my toon the way I want.. the DM is only suppose to be more a refreee and story narrator" Jerry says, "ditto" Joe respondes, "ok ok ok. I'll let Blizzard know what being a DM is suppose to be"
Joe, Tammy, Chuck and Jerry would invite Blizzard back after they realized he could host the gaming session in his climate controlled, central heated and air conditioned (with a woodstove for ambiance) basement with wall to wall carpet, recessed lighting and a 72" color television with a live in maid and chef. They wouldn't get much actual gaming done but they'd have a great time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't mind debating the whole raid id vs open system, but if I'm the only one debating it there is no point to the discussion. If the situation is he only has 13 people in a guild, is the argument that he wants an open system because he can't handle the instance with the 10 he's got or he doesn't want to leave the 3 extra out of the raid and can't handle pugging the other 7 to make 2 raid groups?
Because there can only be one sheppard.... sheeple tends to stick together you see.
To me, its not much more complicated than that.
Not to piss on your ultra, too cool for school hipster-thing but shepherd is spelled shepherd. I realize things don't get very complicated when the only criteria you have for success is if you feel a game warrants success and not extrinsic factors like, I don't know, different taste? I hate to rock your uncomplicated word, but unbelievably, you are not the final voice in what composes success. Blizzard releases quality games. You can condemn them all you want for pandering to accessibility (and you'd be right), but just because someone finds blizzard caters to their tastes, that doesn't make them a "sheep". Are you of the same opinion of people who follow professional sports? I think NASCAR is the most retarded event in the history of man to wear the label of "sport". I don't see the intrinsic sportiness of driving cars around in circles, but I'm adult enough to know that just because I don't appreciate or have a taste for an activity, that doesn't negate the enjoyment it's fans have for it. I'm also not so insecure that I feel I have to insult the entire fandom of NASCAR just to feel a little bit better about myself. Maybe you need to do a whole bunch of getting over yourself?
Yeah, Blizzard is very smart. They're pouring in money from an MMORPG in the form of WoW (that people love or love to bash), an RTS in the form of SC2 (making money from the game AND e-sport), Dungeon Crawler RPG incoming in the form of Diablo III (and previous Diablos, mind you), and just continue to impress in many genres and ideas. They're top-notch, with ideas and art. I'm sure some artists would love to design prettier things and such with WoW's graphic limitations, but they're always doing so much and throwing so much information and creativity out. Being totally obsessed with WoW enough to bash it is kind of funny, knowing that some people here are trolling forums for a game they supposedly "hate" yet can't abstain from discussing the game in detail [and this not being directed at anyone specifically]. Oh irony. "I HATE THIS GAME...but...I'm gonna keep going on the forums..not because I like it...but because I hate it...and want to show everyone how bad it is...and never leave until I convince every single person...yeah...ermm...totally sensible...*cough*"
I don't mind debating the whole raid id vs open system, but if I'm the only one debating it there is no point to the discussion. If the situation is he only has 13 people in a guild, is the argument that he wants an open system because he can't handle the instance with the 10 he's got or he doesn't want to leave the 3 extra out of the raid and can't handle pugging the other 7 to make 2 raid groups?
What I suspect is that a specific poster always finds themself the 11th man left out and there isn't some group of 13 friends he is in charge of.
Aside from that I do think a more dynamic approach to scalable group sizes would go a long way to giving players more options. I just don't think current mmo mechanics support it all that well and the solution hasn't really been perfected yet. Lotro is heading in that direction so maybe a solution is found there or at least the seeds of an idea.
I don't mind debating the whole raid id vs open system, but if I'm the only one debating it there is no point to the discussion. If the situation is he only has 13 people in a guild, is the argument that he wants an open system because he can't handle the instance with the 10 he's got or he doesn't want to leave the 3 extra out of the raid and can't handle pugging the other 7 to make 2 raid groups?
What I suspect is that a specific poster always finds themself the 11th man left out and there isn't some group of 13 friends he is in charge of.
Aside from that I do think a more dynamic approach to scalable group sizes would go a long way to giving players more options. I just don't think current mmo mechanics support it all that well and the solution hasn't really been perfected yet. Lotro is heading in that direction so maybe a solution is found there or at least the seeds of an idea.
ahh back from dinner.. I see many of you are still trolling.. current MMO mechanics are there, maybe you should check out GW2 And you missed the entire issue of WoW's end game.. That issue being is that WoW's ID end game is not SOCIAL friend.. plain and simple Why should friends be forced to be left out or split into different groups because WoW is too stupid to use a better system? My example of 13 people according to you should be split into 7 and 6 and pug the other slots.. Which in my opinion is just stupid and anti social..
I'll stand by my opinion that EQ1 & 2 along with other games, as well as upcoming GW2 have more social end gaming.. and therefore BETTER.. I wonder? I wonder? how many families this past Thanksgiving told family to stay home because there wasn't enough seats at the dinner table for everyone.. Sorry, dinner table only has 10 seats.. But hey, that wouldnt' be a problem, lets split Thanksgiving dinner up into 2 houses.. 7 of you go to that house and 6 of you come here.. lmao
Now do you understand?
Happy Holidays
BTW.. SCALING has been around since the launch of City of Heroes.. check your FACTS friend
Originally posted by Rydeson Originally posted by Daffid011
Originally posted by tanoril I don't mind debating the whole raid id vs open system, but if I'm the only one debating it there is no point to the discussion. If the situation is he only has 13 people in a guild, is the argument that he wants an open system because he can't handle the instance with the 10 he's got or he doesn't want to leave the 3 extra out of the raid and can't handle pugging the other 7 to make 2 raid groups?
What I suspect is that a specific poster always finds themself the 11th man left out and there isn't some group of 13 friends he is in charge of. Aside from that I do think a more dynamic approach to scalable group sizes would go a long way to giving players more options. I just don't think current mmo mechanics support it all that well and the solution hasn't really been perfected yet. Lotro is heading in that direction so maybe a solution is found there or at least the seeds of an idea. ahh back from dinner.. I see many of you are still trolling.. current MMO mechanics are there, maybe you should check out GW2 And you missed the entire issue of WoW's end game.. That issue being is that WoW's ID end game is not SOCIAL friend.. plain and simple Why should friends be forced to be left out or split into different groups because WoW is too stupid to use a better system? My example of 13 people according to you should be split into 7 and 6 and pug the other slots.. Which in my opinion is just stupid and anti social.. I'll stand by my opinion that EQ1 & 2 along with other games, as well as upcoming GW2 have more social end gaming.. and therefore BETTER.. I wonder? I wonder? how many families this past Thanksgiving told family to stay home because there wasn't enough seats at the dinner table for everyone.. Sorry, dinner table only has 10 seats.. But hey, that wouldnt' be a problem, lets split Thanksgiving dinner up into 2 houses.. 7 of you go to that house and 6 of you come here.. lmao Now do you understand? Happy Holidays BTW.. SCALING has been around since the launch of City of Heroes.. check your FACTS friend
If it were better for Blizzard (meaning they would actually get more subs, or have more participation) then Blizzard would do it. They obviously disagree with you. Since they have actual experience designing and publishing an MMORPG, I would think they have a better idea of what works than you. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Blizzard is making the pudding.**
** As a side note, I don't particularly like WoW. I think the leveling is fine and I actually enjoy the PvP, but the end game raiding is mind numbingly boring regardless of how many people you run in the door. That doesn't mean I think I know better than Blizzard does how to design their game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
As such, all this discussion of ID system or not fairly does not concern me, I might try raiding at some point, but it is general not my cup of tea.
I though wanted to approach this subject from an unique perspective. I do not consider RAID, of any numbers, in any game, to be very SOCIAL content, sorry, I just don't.
Why is that? Well, in a raid situation, for the little I know of it, people are very focused on the task at hand, they talk about tactics, about what to do when etc. I have friends that raid, and I know that for example they do not let everyone speak, but just the officers. Now, I am sure each guild has its own style and way to make things, but I still think the baseball comparison was a fitting one.
You are raiding to accomplish something, drop the boss, get the loot, defeat the challenge, whatever. Any social interactions is secondary to this goal, like it would happen in a football team or the like.
Well, think about it, when you want social interaction in the real world, what you usually do? Well, go to a pub, a disco, to a lan party... etc. ALL these activities have one thing in common: NO GOAL... beside having fun, obviously.
You CAN do these activities in an MMO (and I am not speaking just of WoW here, I do not see the difference, from a social point of view, of bringing 25, 40 or 150 people to a Raid, it is still not a primarily social setting, say what you want) if you want. Gather people, get them in a tavern and talk about stuff all night long. Why would you do it online and not offline? Well, your reason may vary, it may involve the fact gathering 170 people in a single place would involve pretty bad ass logistics in the real world, or that you are all scattered all over the world, etc. There are also many fun activities to do in MMOs, it may vatries, from game to game though.
I suppose you CAN use a Raid as a social setting if you use it as the background of a RP adventure, for example. But that would mean finding 9 other people that share your intentions and do not mind taking it slow. In that case, having 13 guild members, will mean 3 are out.. I guess you should organize different social events where all 13 can partecipate.
If YOU wanted to raid seriously... then you should do well to join a raid Alliance. They are made for that purpose and will solve your problem quite nicely, without having to PUG. (and for the record... what the heck is wrong with dividing the people 6 and 7? you still have common chat channel where to communicate with each other... It is virtual world... physical position of your avatar has little to no bearing with your possibility of socializing).
Thanksgiving was mentioned and it was even compared to raiding. Again, there is no purpose in Thanksgiving (well.. beside... giving.... thanks..). It is a nice occasion to gather together with family and eat, have fun etc... like a party. But you are not having any goal beside that.
:tldr: Raids are not a social environment, no matter the numbers, people speak of raiding at a raid and little else. Try a party for socializing. Plenty of them in MMOs.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Math makes me sad. Unless it's a joke. Like a classic. Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9. Classic.
WoW isn't dying anytime soon. Go try Rift. Go try the new F2P games. Go try TOR. WoW will be here if you miss it and want to mess around for a few months. Some stay, some go. No dying happening.
:tldr: Raids are not a social environment, no matter the numbers, people speak of raiding at a raid and little else. Try a party for socializing. Plenty of them in MMOs.
Just because you do not socialize in raids doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I run a progression raiding guild and our raids end up being the best time for our players to chat and have fun together. With WoW being made for the more casual crowd, most boss fights take less than 5 minutes so we only ask to keep comms clear for short periods.
There are plenty of guilds in WoW like the one you describe, but those are generally a group of individuals who have nothing in common other than the need to use the rest of the guild to get them the loot they want.
I think Blizzard is brilliant. I don't play WoW anymore but they will continue to succeed $$$ wise for a long time. I think they have teams of psychologists and social researchers. They have figured out exactly what makes the human mind react to reward systems and keep people playing and doing quests over and over again. This is how they have retained 11+ million subscribers. They have tapped into a deep part of the human pysche that regulates work/reward/pay thinking. They have figured out how long quests should be, when to give people the item to complete the quests, and the exact % drop to keep people happy without making them frusterated and bored.
This is why so many people try to go to other games and get bored. Maybe more companies should hire pyschologists if they want to keep people paying and playing.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Many of us have thought that for years.. I'm sure many companies have tried to tap into the human psych. to know how we tick and which buttons to press.. And the human mind normally changes as we age.. I know I have.. What used to motivate me when I was a teen was different then my 20's and 30's.. I'm just not sure I like businesses attacking my psych, in the attempts to push my buttons.. That borderlines brainwashing.. At times I think our society is backtracking and becoming more barbaric then civilized..
Even today while at the grocery store checkout.. Magazines that my mother used to enjoy, ones that had normal "how to" guides or advice to be a better person have changed.. Headings like "how to look leaner naked" and "sex position of the month", "how to arrouse your mate in 3 simple steps".. These were headlines I would expect from Playboy or Penthouse, not Cosmo or other similar magazines..
Even music has changed.. I remember reading a study of the changes in music.. The study focused on ratings of cd's and which ones were top 40 etc etc.. Using the same criteria over 40 years.. Music that used to be top 100 averaged 1 song in 100 that would have a "M" rating for mature.. That has grown significantly , especially since the late 90's where almost 70% of the top 100 cd's are sold with both adult versions and general.. I guess you can't have a top 40 song anymore unless it's about sex and the use of the F bomb every other verse.. lmao.. << shouldn't be laughing /e smacks myself
So, after 6 long years, WoW is still the best and most popular MMO out there. Why is that? Why haven't other MMOs been able to capture WoW's polish and fun factor?
Discuss you thoughts on the matter.
In my experience I can't think of another game that kept my attention for this long.
And I am quite the jumpy guy when gaming is concerned.
The problem is that Blizzard covers the needs of 90% of the present day players base. Actuallly compared to what you had around a decade ago, Wow offers a lot for everyone investing time (and money) in it.
Wow's player base can't be defined as easely as other games. There are probably as many type of gamers as there are subscriptions.
The error most "non believers" make is that they try to fix the "typical wow player" into one category.
That's not the case. I know someone who just grinds mats and sells them on the AH as a passionate hobby. Another one only plays for its e-spôrts arena business.
When you have that much players it means you are offering content that can please almost anyone.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why is WoW the biggest/best/most successful (delete as preferred...) MMO out there?
Built by a company with a solid reputation for releasing EXCELLENT games.
Enough budget behind it to enable something close to the original vision.
Built around a successful, well-known and well-liked IP with consistent lore.
Dev team given enough time to get it right.
Regular large scale expansions.
Enough variety to allow re-playability by the same players (alts etc)
In-game and out of game support that do generally get bugs and problems fixed quickly.
WoW ticks virtually all of the boxes that matter to a lot of today's gamers, hence it's success.
8. Caters to the lowest common denomintor of casual gamer, hence making it popular, but mostly average in an overall gaming experience.
This remark - point 8 - is what I pointed at in my post above.
"Non believers" try to bring one type of playing to the table. "average and common denominator".
It simply is not the case. The hardcore e-sports Arena guy is many many times a different kind of player than the grandma picking flowers to level and saves her gold for a nice dress on the auction house.
To call this wide range of gaming options "common denominator" is a very strange thought.
I don't see any e-sport activity in EVE, nor dungeon crawling, nor dress collecting, nor Siege warfare.
The strength of Wow is that it caters to all kind of on line players: be that hardcore raiders, casuals, hardcore PvP -ers, children, teenagers, midlifers and elder. And yes even the basement dwellers find things to do in those never ending achievements of their proper choices.
Comments
Their customers refuse to be slowed down by the difficulty of the content. They would rather wait instead of getting beaten. Blizzard had to choose between content that was too hard for most people to participate in or reduce the rate people could consume the content by putting in road blocks. If you pay attention you'll see roadblocks all over the place though...their sneaky about it sometimes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Do you really think blizzard is trying to support guild ?" And are we supposed to care about if they support it or not? whether they support it or not with guild perks or whatever doesnt stop my guild or other guilds, from completing our goals.
"Guildhalls, (instances with portals hurray another method to join guilds and not suddenly leave)" Honestly I dont give a rats ass about guildhalls, why do we even need them? what to play with furniture or to display achievements lol, who cares... I dont play this game to play house sorry. The reason Blizzard hasnt put it in the game is because its pointless!.
"Cause your guild might have free mounts or pets .what will happen is that it even more alienate small communities ." Sure it will alienate small communities but if people really REALLY wanted them..they would go for them either by joining a guild and contributing to the whole, or recruit for your guild. If my guild has special pets or mounts it will be because we WORKED FOR THEM AS A GUILD, if you dont want to do this then sorry dont know what else to tell you.
This is an MMO, there will always be things that people wont be able to get like mounts from endgame bosses, to achievements like a 25man heroic LK kill, should I whine and complain about this because as a guild we cant achieve it since we dont have the people dedicated enough to do 25mans? MMOs arent fair and not everyone will get what they want, I can live with that I guess you cant.
"Guilds reward that will be removed once you guild quit , now join a guild get reward and quit .
Cause people rage against that idea , imagine all the hard work you did stripped (lol you mean all the hard you didn´t do )" Ever heard of something called loyalty? yes there will be issues with people and you will want to quit but thats the whole point of a guild perk system is that it rewards the guilds that have members that are loyal and want to work together through the thick and thin for the benefit of all. Everything you did was for the guild and not for you get it? so why do you get to take it with you? Its called a "guild perk" for a reason.
They are trying to give people incentive to stay together as a guild and work for perks, if you want to play the "lone wolf" in a MMO (which I dont understand why you would) then your not going to get very much from it especially in WoW. Is it so bad to join a guild and work as a team?
"And cause them to withdraw into themself , lockout sorry one reason only .
TIME SINK , cause it take longer for guilds to farm epics , no other reason TIMESINK ."
ITS AN MMO!... let me say it again just in case you missed it...ITS AN MMO! THE WHOLE GENRE IS BUILT ON MASSIVE TIMESINKS SO DEVELOPERS CAN KEEP YOU PAYING AND PLAYING. Everything you do in MMOs is a timesink from crafting to questing to raiding. welcome to MMOs....
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
IT's an MMO?.. Some wouldn't know an MMORPG if it ran over them with 18 wheels.. Give the console gamers an internet connection and all hell breaks loose.. lol All I have to say is that Blizzard would make a terrible Dungeon Master, for those of us that grew up with REAL rpg'ing.. Actually I'm getting a visual........
Chuck says, "OMG dude, where did you find that Blizzard guy.. he sucks as a DM"
Joe responds, "He's my cousin's neighbor, and was told he's good with games"
Jerry chirps in, "well Joe, I don't know what games he's good at, but he's clueless how to be a DM"
Joe responds, "ahh c'mon guys, lets give him a chance"
Tammy pipes in, "ok, Joe, but if he tries to force me to play my character his way, I'm kicking him"
Chuck says, "agreed, I like to play my toon the way I want.. the DM is only suppose to be more a refreee and story narrator"
Jerry says, "ditto"
Joe respondes, "ok ok ok. I'll let Blizzard know what being a DM is suppose to be"
Joe, Tammy, Chuck and Jerry would invite Blizzard back after they realized he could host the gaming session in his climate controlled, central heated and air conditioned (with a woodstove for ambiance) basement with wall to wall carpet, recessed lighting and a 72" color television with a live in maid and chef. They wouldn't get much actual gaming done but they'd have a great time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ha Ha Ha lizard.. good one.. I liked that ..
I don't mind debating the whole raid id vs open system, but if I'm the only one debating it there is no point to the discussion. If the situation is he only has 13 people in a guild, is the argument that he wants an open system because he can't handle the instance with the 10 he's got or he doesn't want to leave the 3 extra out of the raid and can't handle pugging the other 7 to make 2 raid groups?
Not to piss on your ultra, too cool for school hipster-thing but shepherd is spelled shepherd. I realize things don't get very complicated when the only criteria you have for success is if you feel a game warrants success and not extrinsic factors like, I don't know, different taste? I hate to rock your uncomplicated word, but unbelievably, you are not the final voice in what composes success. Blizzard releases quality games. You can condemn them all you want for pandering to accessibility (and you'd be right), but just because someone finds blizzard caters to their tastes, that doesn't make them a "sheep". Are you of the same opinion of people who follow professional sports? I think NASCAR is the most retarded event in the history of man to wear the label of "sport". I don't see the intrinsic sportiness of driving cars around in circles, but I'm adult enough to know that just because I don't appreciate or have a taste for an activity, that doesn't negate the enjoyment it's fans have for it. I'm also not so insecure that I feel I have to insult the entire fandom of NASCAR just to feel a little bit better about myself. Maybe you need to do a whole bunch of getting over yourself?
Yeah, Blizzard is very smart. They're pouring in money from an MMORPG in the form of WoW (that people love or love to bash), an RTS in the form of SC2 (making money from the game AND e-sport), Dungeon Crawler RPG incoming in the form of Diablo III (and previous Diablos, mind you), and just continue to impress in many genres and ideas. They're top-notch, with ideas and art. I'm sure some artists would love to design prettier things and such with WoW's graphic limitations, but they're always doing so much and throwing so much information and creativity out. Being totally obsessed with WoW enough to bash it is kind of funny, knowing that some people here are trolling forums for a game they supposedly "hate" yet can't abstain from discussing the game in detail [and this not being directed at anyone specifically]. Oh irony. "I HATE THIS GAME...but...I'm gonna keep going on the forums..not because I like it...but because I hate it...and want to show everyone how bad it is...and never leave until I convince every single person...yeah...ermm...totally sensible...*cough*"
What I suspect is that a specific poster always finds themself the 11th man left out and there isn't some group of 13 friends he is in charge of.
Aside from that I do think a more dynamic approach to scalable group sizes would go a long way to giving players more options. I just don't think current mmo mechanics support it all that well and the solution hasn't really been perfected yet. Lotro is heading in that direction so maybe a solution is found there or at least the seeds of an idea.
ahh back from dinner.. I see many of you are still trolling.. current MMO mechanics are there, maybe you should check out GW2
And you missed the entire issue of WoW's end game.. That issue being is that WoW's ID end game is not SOCIAL friend.. plain and simple 
Why should friends be forced to be left out or split into different groups because WoW is too stupid to use a better system? My example of 13 people according to you should be split into 7 and 6 and pug the other slots.. Which in my opinion is just stupid and anti social..
I'll stand by my opinion that EQ1 & 2 along with other games, as well as upcoming GW2 have more social end gaming.. and therefore BETTER..
I wonder? I wonder? how many families this past Thanksgiving told family to stay home because there wasn't enough seats at the dinner table for everyone.. Sorry, dinner table only has 10 seats.. But hey, that wouldnt' be a problem, lets split Thanksgiving dinner up into 2 houses.. 7 of you go to that house and 6 of you come here.. lmao
Now do you understand?
Happy Holidays
BTW.. SCALING has been around since the launch of City of Heroes.. check your FACTS friend
Blizzard is to RPG's and RTS's as Valve is to FPS's... They just know how to keep fans interested.
Aside from that I do think a more dynamic approach to scalable group sizes would go a long way to giving players more options. I just don't think current mmo mechanics support it all that well and the solution hasn't really been perfected yet. Lotro is heading in that direction so maybe a solution is found there or at least the seeds of an idea.
ahh back from dinner.. I see many of you are still trolling.. current MMO mechanics are there, maybe you should check out GW2
I'll stand by my opinion that EQ1 & 2 along with other games, as well as upcoming GW2 have more social end gaming.. and therefore BETTER..
Now do you understand?
Happy Holidays
BTW.. SCALING has been around since the launch of City of Heroes.. check your FACTS friend
If it were better for Blizzard (meaning they would actually get more subs, or have more participation) then Blizzard would do it. They obviously disagree with you. Since they have actual experience designing and publishing an MMORPG, I would think they have a better idea of what works than you. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Blizzard is making the pudding.**
** As a side note, I don't particularly like WoW. I think the leveling is fine and I actually enjoy the PvP, but the end game raiding is mind numbingly boring regardless of how many people you run in the door. That doesn't mean I think I know better than Blizzard does how to design their game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I am not a raider.
As such, all this discussion of ID system or not fairly does not concern me, I might try raiding at some point, but it is general not my cup of tea.
I though wanted to approach this subject from an unique perspective. I do not consider RAID, of any numbers, in any game, to be very SOCIAL content, sorry, I just don't.
Why is that? Well, in a raid situation, for the little I know of it, people are very focused on the task at hand, they talk about tactics, about what to do when etc. I have friends that raid, and I know that for example they do not let everyone speak, but just the officers. Now, I am sure each guild has its own style and way to make things, but I still think the baseball comparison was a fitting one.
You are raiding to accomplish something, drop the boss, get the loot, defeat the challenge, whatever. Any social interactions is secondary to this goal, like it would happen in a football team or the like.
Well, think about it, when you want social interaction in the real world, what you usually do? Well, go to a pub, a disco, to a lan party... etc. ALL these activities have one thing in common: NO GOAL... beside having fun, obviously.
You CAN do these activities in an MMO (and I am not speaking just of WoW here, I do not see the difference, from a social point of view, of bringing 25, 40 or 150 people to a Raid, it is still not a primarily social setting, say what you want) if you want. Gather people, get them in a tavern and talk about stuff all night long. Why would you do it online and not offline? Well, your reason may vary, it may involve the fact gathering 170 people in a single place would involve pretty bad ass logistics in the real world, or that you are all scattered all over the world, etc. There are also many fun activities to do in MMOs, it may vatries, from game to game though.
I suppose you CAN use a Raid as a social setting if you use it as the background of a RP adventure, for example. But that would mean finding 9 other people that share your intentions and do not mind taking it slow. In that case, having 13 guild members, will mean 3 are out.. I guess you should organize different social events where all 13 can partecipate.
If YOU wanted to raid seriously... then you should do well to join a raid Alliance. They are made for that purpose and will solve your problem quite nicely, without having to PUG. (and for the record... what the heck is wrong with dividing the people 6 and 7? you still have common chat channel where to communicate with each other... It is virtual world... physical position of your avatar has little to no bearing with your possibility of socializing).
Thanksgiving was mentioned and it was even compared to raiding. Again, there is no purpose in Thanksgiving (well.. beside... giving.... thanks..). It is a nice occasion to gather together with family and eat, have fun etc... like a party. But you are not having any goal beside that.
:tldr: Raids are not a social environment, no matter the numbers, people speak of raiding at a raid and little else. Try a party for socializing. Plenty of them in MMOs.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Math makes me sad. Unless it's a joke. Like a classic. Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9. Classic.
WoW isn't dying anytime soon. Go try Rift. Go try the new F2P games. Go try TOR. WoW will be here if you miss it and want to mess around for a few months. Some stay, some go. No dying happening.
Just because you do not socialize in raids doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I run a progression raiding guild and our raids end up being the best time for our players to chat and have fun together. With WoW being made for the more casual crowd, most boss fights take less than 5 minutes so we only ask to keep comms clear for short periods.
There are plenty of guilds in WoW like the one you describe, but those are generally a group of individuals who have nothing in common other than the need to use the rest of the guild to get them the loot they want.
I think Blizzard is brilliant. I don't play WoW anymore but they will continue to succeed $$$ wise for a long time. I think they have teams of psychologists and social researchers. They have figured out exactly what makes the human mind react to reward systems and keep people playing and doing quests over and over again. This is how they have retained 11+ million subscribers. They have tapped into a deep part of the human pysche that regulates work/reward/pay thinking. They have figured out how long quests should be, when to give people the item to complete the quests, and the exact % drop to keep people happy without making them frusterated and bored.
This is why so many people try to go to other games and get bored. Maybe more companies should hire pyschologists if they want to keep people paying and playing.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
LOL Briansho..
Many of us have thought that for years.. I'm sure many companies have tried to tap into the human psych. to know how we tick and which buttons to press.. And the human mind normally changes as we age.. I know I have.. What used to motivate me when I was a teen was different then my 20's and 30's.. I'm just not sure I like businesses attacking my psych, in the attempts to push my buttons.. That borderlines brainwashing.. At times I think our society is backtracking and becoming more barbaric then civilized..
Even today while at the grocery store checkout.. Magazines that my mother used to enjoy, ones that had normal "how to" guides or advice to be a better person have changed.. Headings like "how to look leaner naked" and "sex position of the month", "how to arrouse your mate in 3 simple steps".. These were headlines I would expect from Playboy or Penthouse, not Cosmo or other similar magazines..
Even music has changed.. I remember reading a study of the changes in music.. The study focused on ratings of cd's and which ones were top 40 etc etc.. Using the same criteria over 40 years.. Music that used to be top 100 averaged 1 song in 100 that would have a "M" rating for mature.. That has grown significantly , especially since the late 90's where almost 70% of the top 100 cd's are sold with both adult versions and general.. I guess you can't have a top 40 song anymore unless it's about sex and the use of the F bomb every other verse.. lmao.. << shouldn't be laughing /e smacks myself
In my experience I can't think of another game that kept my attention for this long.
And I am quite the jumpy guy when gaming is concerned.
The problem is that Blizzard covers the needs of 90% of the present day players base. Actuallly compared to what you had around a decade ago, Wow offers a lot for everyone investing time (and money) in it.
Wow's player base can't be defined as easely as other games. There are probably as many type of gamers as there are subscriptions.
PvP-ers, questers, dungeon crawlers, rpgamers, socializers, hardcore raiders, hardcore e-sporters, achievers, ...
The error most "non believers" make is that they try to fix the "typical wow player" into one category.
That's not the case. I know someone who just grinds mats and sells them on the AH as a passionate hobby. Another one only plays for its e-spôrts arena business.
When you have that much players it means you are offering content that can please almost anyone.
Why is WoW the biggest/best/most successful (delete as preferred...) MMO out there?
Built by a company with a solid reputation for releasing EXCELLENT games.
Enough budget behind it to enable something close to the original vision.
Built around a successful, well-known and well-liked IP with consistent lore.
Dev team given enough time to get it right.
Regular large scale expansions.
Enough variety to allow re-playability by the same players (alts etc)
In-game and out of game support that do generally get bugs and problems fixed quickly.
WoW ticks virtually all of the boxes that matter to a lot of today's gamers, hence it's success.
8. Caters to the lowest common denomintor of casual gamer, hence making it popular, but mostly average in an overall gaming experience.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This remark - point 8 - is what I pointed at in my post above.
"Non believers" try to bring one type of playing to the table. "average and common denominator".
It simply is not the case. The hardcore e-sports Arena guy is many many times a different kind of player than the grandma picking flowers to level and saves her gold for a nice dress on the auction house.
To call this wide range of gaming options "common denominator" is a very strange thought.
I don't see any e-sport activity in EVE, nor dungeon crawling, nor dress collecting, nor Siege warfare.
The strength of Wow is that it caters to all kind of on line players: be that hardcore raiders, casuals, hardcore PvP -ers, children, teenagers, midlifers and elder. And yes even the basement dwellers find things to do in those never ending achievements of their proper choices.
Point 8 doesn't really make sense in the MMO landscape right now.
There are tons of 'wow-clones' ('wow-wannabe's' or w/e) in the market but I don't see them have even 10% of WoW's success. Why is that?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.