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Giving EQ2 a month, a Ratonga's adventure (with pictures!).

2

Comments

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,082

    I will try and answer the copy parts

     

    Mail system from FFXI

    Auction House FFXI

    The achievement thing was something they copied from two sources one was City of Heroes the badge system and Lord of the Rings trait one but then even Warhammer copied that.

     

    Individual dungeons instances for groups were from Lost Dungeons of Norrath an EQ expansion.

     

    Faction grinds were an old EQ copy.

     

    Not too sure how much they copied from Everquest but Blizzard is known to have copied a lot from a lot of games and that is one of the reasons WoW was so good when it launched it took a lot of good things from other games. Originality was not a strong suit in this case but they excelled in copying.

    Chamber of Chains
  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798

    Originally posted by Broomy

    4. Easier crafting

    5. Faster travel

    I fail to see how WOW crafting and EQ2 crafting have any similarities

     

    Faster Travel?  the current travel in EQ2 is more like Guild Wars map travel --- not WOW

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by arieste

    [1] Other than EVE, what games that launched over 3 years ago now have double the population of what they were during say.. their first 6 months?  

     

    I can't think of any.  Maybe some of the F2P ones.  The fact that the industry has increased actually helps explain population declines as more and more competitiors enter the market, the population spreads thinner.

     

    [2] EQ2 is over 6 years old.  It's one of the most successful MMOs on the market.  Just because WoW has 10 million subs, doesn't mean that's the measure of success in the industry.   Just because Avatar made a billion dollars, doesn't mean that it's not inferior in every possible way to (for example) Inception that's not even made a third of that or to countless other films that haven't broken 50m in box office.

     

    WoW is a statistical anomaly.  It's basically a fad.  Most reasonable people I know that played both EQ2 and WoW on launch pretty much agreed that the two games were extremely similar.   Obviously some things were different and some gambles paid off for WoW and didn't for EQ2.  That's life.  

     

    [3] (I mean, who knew that designing your game to have bad graphics on purpose would actually pay off because more people would be able to run it better?  I mean, it seems downright stupid as a strategy and no company has used it since.. but it worked for WoW, along with a bunch of other things, along with mass marketing and hype and so forth.)

     

    [4] WoW's been around the same time as EQ2 and it's given its players what, 1 expac?   EQ2 has given its players a full-fledged expansion at least once a year along with constant updates.  

     

    [1]

    Lineage, Lineage II, City of heroes, Final FantasyXI, Everquest, Ultima Online, DAOC, Runescape have all done that. 

    DDO and Lotro as well if you consider their f2p offerings, but that would bring up how EQ2 is lacking.

     

    [2]

    Wow isn't the measure of success for the industry.  It is the glaring truth about how poor of a condition the genre is in.  There is no reason why one game should dominate the market this much.  If other games were anywhere even remotely close to the quality of wow people would be discussing which game that has 1-2 million players is "best".  The cold hard truth is that wow dominates, because the competition is so lacking.

    EQ2 is only a success by comparison, because the rest of its peers are failing more than it is.  Closing 1/3-1/2 of your servers the first year of operation, closing down the entire asian studio/servers and multiple rounds of server mergers isn't a success story.  Sure by comparion to games that crashed in spectacular fashion eq2 looks like a champion, but eq2 only had 1 game to compete with when the market was growing by MILLIONS of players and it could not even hold onto its initial customers.  There is a reason for that.

    [3]

    Lets look at your question in reverse.  Who would have thought it would not pay off to create an mmo that did not utilize graphics card resources while trying to create cutting edge graphics that resulted in game crippling performance even for the most advanced computers on medium settings?  Who could have possible thought that people would not be willing to wait years for new CPUs to be developed so that they could run the game they bought years ago with decent performance? 

    I'm not sure how you can call it a dumb strategy to make a game that actually functions.  EQ2 could have used a double serving of that design philosphy.

    [4]

    Wow is releasing its third expansion.  Sure content releases are slow, but they have all been quality releases. 

    That isn't something that can be said about eq2 expansions.  They keep getting smaller and filled with more problems.  It isn't like people are praising how great eq2 expansions have gotten over the years and the last has been the worst yet.  It was so lacking in quality that items were litterally created by a random number generator. 

    That is why the general outlook from the current playerbase is that soe is going to ruin velious.  I'm not just talking about the normal grumping about minor things, but the complete inability for the eq2 team to deliver a quality product. 

     

    So again I ask, if the population has not declined due to poor content and gameplay, then why?  The decline isn't something new. If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back? 

     

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Broomy

    To deny that the atronomical number of subs WOW has is not an indicator of better overall design (ie: one that appeals to many) is simply being in denial for the sake of, well, being in denial.

    To imply that popularity is an indicator of quality is pure ignorance.  Virtually every product on the market (in any industry) that is massively popular is vastly subpar on quality to its competitors.

    Examples:

    Food - McDonalds - best restaurant?  

    Electronics - iPAD - congratulations, you've bought something with 1/10th the functionality at 4 times the price.

    Music - yes, Justin Bieber is the world's greatest musician!

    Film - Yes! Avatar is the world's greatest work of cinematic art.  Unobtainium 4tw.

    Books - Yes, Twilight is epitome of literature.  

     

    I can go on and on and on.   Are these all quality products that appeal to their demographic and highly successful?  Absolutely.  Do they all have many much better alternatives on all levels?  Yep. 

     

    I don't care how many billions of customers McDonalds (or WoW) has served, it doesn't make the food any better and for my $10 I have about 100 places that I can get get a better lunch at on a daily basis.

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back? 

    See my post above.  The sad fact is that popularity is dictated very little by quality.  Half the time it's the opposite and the highest quality products end up crashing and burning.  Nothing is holding EQ2 back, it's still a good game in comparison to most of the stuff on the market.  

     

    When it comes to PvE, grouping and endgame, I'm yet to play any game that offered any reason to switch and I've tried nearly every MMO out there except for WoW, which just has awful graphics and art design that I can't get over and the fact that it's such a total joke of a world (not that EQ2 is much better in the world regard).  

     

    I'm pretty sure that if I did try WoW despite the graphics, my reaction would be pretty much the same as when trying AION or AoC or Vanguard or LoTRO, which was: "well, pretty much same shit as EQ2".

     

    EQ2 still has a ton of servers up, full support and is releasing tons of new content for the game.  To me as a player, it is enough of a success due to those factors.  If EQ2 suddenly got really popular, added 50 servers and stopped producing expacs for 5 years, it really wouldn't change my opinion of how good it is in a positive direction.  

     

    I think 10 years is a good lifespan for a game and 6 years in or so, I expect a game to be where EQ2 is.   The next game I'm looking forward to is Rift and if it is fun to play, keeps populated servers and released a major expac every year for the next 5 years, I don't give the slightest crap about whether it has 50k or 500k or 5 million.  It just doesn't matter to me.  To me quality indicates quality, popularity indicates that something appeals more to the lowest common denominator and by extension that it's probably less appealing to me.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back? 

    See my post above.  The sad fact is that popularity is dictated very little by quality.  Half the time it's the opposite and the highest quality products end up crashing and burning.  Nothing is holding EQ2 back, it's still a good game in comparison to most of the stuff on the market.  

     

    When it comes to PvE, grouping and endgame, I'm yet to play any game that offered any reason to switch and I've tried nearly every MMO out there except for WoW, which just has awful graphics and art design that I can't get over and the fact that it's such a total joke of a world (not that EQ2 is much better in the world regard).  

     

    I'm pretty sure that if I did try WoW despite the graphics, my reaction would be pretty much the same as when trying AION or AoC or Vanguard or LoTRO, which was: "well, pretty much same shit as EQ2".

     

    EQ2 still has a ton of servers up, full support and is releasing tons of new content for the game.  To me as a player, it is enough of a success due to those factors.  If EQ2 suddenly got really popular, added 50 servers and stopped producing expacs for 5 years, it really wouldn't change my opinion of how good it is in a positive direction.  

     

    I think 10 years is a good lifespan for a game and 6 years in or so, I expect a game to be where EQ2 is.   The next game I'm looking forward to is Rift and if it is fun to play, keeps populated servers and released a major expac every year for the next 5 years, I don't give the slightest crap about whether it has 50k or 500k or 5 million.  It just doesn't matter to me.  To me quality indicates quality, popularity indicates that something appeals more to the lowest common denominator and by extension that it's probably less appealing to me.

    [1]

    As for your comparisons. 

    McDonalds DOES rate extremely high in quality among FAST FOOD chains.  Making a comparions of SIMILAR products is key when you try to make a comparison. 

    The rest of your examples are also taken out of context as most people do when they try this line of debating.  Justin Beiber and Twilight are books written for children and teenagers.  They are and never were meant to be literary masterpeices, but for there proper market, they are great works.  Again, keeping things in perspective these things make sense.  It is a flawed line of discussion used to disprove a comment that wasn't made in the first place. 

    Even still, as the market grew for McDonalds, their competition grew as well.   People still made choices despite the theory that no one will break from the herd mentality.  Many new chains have started up and grown into successful companies.  There wasn't some massive decline in every other food chain due to McD's, like we have seen with wow vs the rest of the market. 

     

    [2]

    Wait, you have never even tried wow, but you have come to the conclusion that it is a joke world and the success isn't a result of quality?  That doesn't seem entirely objective. 

    Cool if you don't like the graphics of wow and you enjoy eq2, but this isn't about your individual needs and how you avoid anything popular, because it might appeal to the lowest common denominator. 

    It is about EQ2 being something that people are saying is higher quality and having a better experience than anything else on the market, but at the same time suffering a steady decline, multiple sets of server mergers, more lead designer/producer changes than it has had expansion and a playerbase that has a general lack of faith/trust in the developers ability to make quality additions to the game.

    If eq2 offered such an experience why isn't it attracting more players and retaining them?  If wow is so low quality as you imply, do even burned out wow players desperate for another mmo not flock to eq2? 

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered such an experience why isn't it attracting more players and retaining them?  If wow is so low quality as you imply, do even burned out wow players desperate for another mmo not flock to eq2? 

    /shrug.   like any media and art form, some things appeal to people others don't.  Firefly's the best TV of the past 10 years, yet it didn't even make it a full season.  Why?  Just didn't appeal to enough people... plenty other examples like that.  Amazing films, amazing bands, amazing games - all kinds of things that are awesome and just don't breakthrough to a mass audience.  Like I said above - quality doesn't necessarily mean widespread popularity or commercial success.

     

    To appreciate quality, people need to be objective and knowledgeable.  The majority of the populace is ill-educated and biased (both by personal preferences and socio-cultural influences).  That's the nature of modern society.  I mean look at any argument on these forums.  Ask people about instancing (for instance)  and out of the 100 people that immediately post how much instancing sucks about 95 won't even fully understand what instancing technology is or how it is and can be used.

     

    I know lots of desperate, burned out former WoW players that have flocked to EQ2.  Or to LoTRO or to other games.  I also know people that have gone vice versa.  I wasn't really trying to make the argument that EQ2 is better, only that saying "WoW is popular, it must be the best" is a poor argument.  I actually think that most of these games are about the same and chances are, whichever one you started with, is the one you'll stick with.

     

    If LoTRO had come out before EQ2, i would probably never have touched EQ2, same thing if AoC had come out earlier.   Hell, if WoW had come out 6 months before it did, I would have probably played that, since the world of games was a vacuum for me at that point.  Evaluate a game based on it's features and quality, not based on how many people like it.  All these games are built very well and offer a similar experience.   I know enough about WoW from people I trust that play it to know that it offers largely the same thing. 

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Part of fireflys problem was that it was slotted in the kiss of death timeslot and it was shown out of sequence.  That is the television equivelant of releasing an mmo incomplete.  You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

    Wow isn't quality because it has lots of players or is popular.   It has lots of players, because it is a high quality game.  The game has been praise and awarded industry wide for setting the bar higher than other games.  Wow is the reason people started using the term "polished" when talking about mmos.

     

    Again the subject must be kept in context.  In theory you are right.  Popularity doesn't mean quality and likewise lack of popularity doesn't mean lack of quality.  Yet in relation to the subjects being discussed quality for wow and lack of quality for eq2 have been brought up time and time again from players and professionals alike.

     

  • dothackkingdothackking Member UncommonPosts: 74

    I always love this discussion.

     

    Most people who argue about this have only played one game or the other.

     

     

    Note: my highest EQ2 character is 75, but I can tell you this:

     

    WoW is NOT bad quality.   The gameplay is so much more fun than in this game. (in my opinion, sorry)   The graphics are cartoonish, but man do I feel sexy being able to run WoW on Ultra when I can barely even run EQ2 on Balanced.   WoW is really boring at the beginning of the game, which, to me, was when EQ2 actually shined.    And, most of the allure behind WoW is the raiding.    I haven't gotten to try EQ2 raiding yet, but WoW raiding is terrific (admittedly there are some bad raids, but the raids are all very mechanic driven, and quite difficult.)

     

    I have raided WoW since the very start of the Wrath of the Lich King, and, up to this point in EQ2 (I haven't gotten to raiding yet, so I'm not going to say one's better than the other...for sure) I prefer WoW.   But not by a lot.   EQ2's gameplay seems slow.   "instant" cast spells aren't truly instant, they're like half second casts, and the customizability blows compared to WoW (In WoW a UI element can do nearly anything.    For instance:   With ProfitUI on EQ2 you can see your stats on the bottom.  To customize which stats you see you have to be a literate coder.   In WoW, with Titanpanel, you can just right click and change which stats currently show.

  • mesmerisemesmerise Member UncommonPosts: 200

    Originally posted by Saryna

     I excuse myself in advance for poor grammar, English is not my native language and I will do my best to write in a fluid and understandable manner, all kinds of criticism is welcomed and accepted.

     Very well written! If you don't mind me asking, what is your native language?

    I think that going into greater detail about some of the quests may be beneficial. Perhaps if you are more savvy than I am find a map of the area and trace your path as you level up and put markers for points of interest along the way to discuss in the text below it! This will give an indication of just how large the area is for people that have never experienced the game before.

    Once again, really well done!

    image
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,082

    I think the fast food analogy often used to show how popular stuff is bad for you or not necessarily a quality product does not apply. For one thing food is a different category altogether we have to eat to live and we shovel junk in and really do not care as it does not stay in your system although mercury laden prawns might.

     

    Entertainment another example that is of personal taste,music is again not games. That example does not apply either in my opinion. This is my opinion so don't get upset I am just spouting my thoughts here.

     

    As a person who has both played and liked both WoW and EQ 2 I will say that these games were different not that were not MMORPGs to start with but they played differently. Each had their strong points while not at all being images of each other. WoW for all that it is derided for mainly its cartoon like graphics is a surprisingly easy game to get lost in and its graphics work you can if you let your prejudice self enjoy it for awhile actually see that there is much talent in the art. Over the years the game has not made changes that I feel has benefited it and I am sad the game I once played in 2004 has since become something else altogether. It used to be good vanilla WoW both interesting and challenging.

     

    EQ 2 though I did not like it initially but when I came back to it a year later after the changes were made the game was amazing. The crafting and lore was quite well done and fun game it was. The housing aspect and the collection of items to put in including the weapon collection was nothing short of amazing. I loved it and actually to be honest at that time it was one of the best MMORPGs but it was not doing as well as WoW. The decision to wowify it was a bad one and I think that is one of the reasons the game went down.It was actually good before the men in suits made the stupid decisions.

    Chamber of Chains
  • ChieftanChieftan Member UncommonPosts: 1,188

    The quickest way to see how much EQ2 was influenced by WoW is to try starting in Qeynos/Freeport instead of Kelethin/Neriak/Halas. 

    In the classic cities you have to zone 3 times before you find a place to level and quest...if you get lucky and go to the right place.  You basically get lost in the old cities for a little while until you figure out where the frick to go just to kill stuff.

    The newer starting areas are confined to one zone and don't direct you into the capitol city until at least level ten.  They even made Kelethin and Halas's newbie areas and capitol cities all one zone. 

    The newer adventure zones are still big but there's quests crammed into every nook and cranny just like WoW.  Go to any of the original zones and you'll feel like you're running a cross country marathon in the Mojave Desert.

    Basically EQ2 had an idenity crisis at launch, changed every system including the entire class system, and alienated most players with high system requirements on top of it all.  It still has some  it's own identity and style but this "me too" crap just proves how much of a leader WoW's been in the market.  A game needs to do more than just copy another to be successful.

    My youtube MMO gaming channel



  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798

    Unlike WOW,

    EQ2 didnt put a "!" over every quest  in game -- npcs yes,  items giving quests, no

     

    half of enchanted lands quests are not given by a npc but by clicking on a log of wood or some desk or some rock

     

    WOW used to do the same thing too until WOW patch 2.3 where no quest is really a mystery anymore

    just look for the "!"

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    Interesting read and no doubt the OP is enjoying himself,but honestly,the OP has no intention of staying,once Cataclysym is out,the OP is back to Wow correct?This is the trend i have seen from most of the pop that was bored,but Blizz added a few new quests and everyone went back to playing a noob toon and even went as far as to compliment the same old types of quests.This is no different than going grocery shopping when your hungry,EVERYTHING looks good then.

    Really there is very little to distinguish between Eq2 and Wow,Eq2 just does things a bit better and with better graphics,to me it is a no brainer which i would choose.

    As for no people in the new zones.that is because they are all in the Xtended server and LOTRO took in a lot of bored players seeking in between filler games.Also the new quests in Wow brought back tons of those bored players.Even in the giant Wow before these new quests came about,the noob zones were literally as empty as any game on the market, i know i rolled several toons on several servers.

    I think the OP should know what is to come in the next 20 or so levels,the leveling will become slower,crafting will be slower,it is all expected,nothing in the game really changes after the initial 10 levels.This again is no different in any other game,it really comes down to graphics and those little things as Wow/EQ2 are the same as many other games out there.

    The ONLY game offering something different in the Fantasy realm is FFXI,other than that,the op would have to look at games like Eve,Star Wars,basically the sci-fi genre.I think it is all really circumstantial as i am sure the OP is headed back for Cataclysym,can tell me  if i am wrong ,no biggie,i usually have a good gut feeling,especially when one admits to playing just because they were bored.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Chieftan

    The quickest way to see how much EQ2 was influenced by WoW is to try starting in Qeynos/Freeport instead of Kelethin/Neriak/Halas. 

    In the classic cities you have to zone 3 times before you find a place to level and quest...if you get lucky and go to the right place.  You basically get lost in the old cities for a little while until you figure out where the frick to go just to kill stuff.

    The newer starting areas are confined to one zone and don't direct you into the capitol city until at least level ten.  They even made Kelethin and Halas's newbie areas and capitol cities all one zone. 

    The newer adventure zones are still big but there's quests crammed into every nook and cranny just like WoW.  Go to any of the original zones and you'll feel like you're running a cross country marathon in the Mojave Desert.

    Actually, you didn't start in Qeynos or Freeport.  You could start on the Isle of Refuge,  where you were confined to one zone and expected to make level 6 or so before moving to one of the suburbs / racial villages, where you would spend the next 4-5 levels until finally venturing into Qeynos or Freeport proper.  

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • bandontcarebandontcare Member Posts: 72

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back?  

    I think 10 years is a good lifespan for a game and 6 years in or so, I expect a game to be where EQ2 is.   The next game I'm looking forward to is Rift and if it is fun to play, keeps populated servers and released a major expac every year for the next 5 years, I don't give the slightest crap about whether it has 50k or 500k or 5 million.  It just doesn't matter to me.  To me quality indicates quality, popularity indicates that something appeals more to the lowest common denominator and by extension that it's probably less appealing to me.

     I don't want to play with people making such statements. Elitist much?

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by bandontcare

     I don't want to play with people making such statements. Elitist much?

    There are to opposites to the scale, people who play Wow because it is popular and people who doesn't play because it is popular.

    My opinion is that both those gangs should try to get a life on their own instead of caring so much what everyone else thinks.

    A good game is a good game. If other people like it too fine, if not their problem. I don't judge people for liking a certain game and I really don't bother what others think of the game I like as long as many enough play it so it doesn't  close down.

    But it seems like other peoples opinions matter more than some peoples own opinions, be that people who agree with the masses or people who rebels for the sake of rebelling.

    Then of course some people might consider me a sociopath, I prefer the term independent. ;)

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by bandontcare

    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back?  

    I think 10 years is a good lifespan for a game and 6 years in or so, I expect a game to be where EQ2 is.   The next game I'm looking forward to is Rift and if it is fun to play, keeps populated servers and released a major expac every year for the next 5 years, I don't give the slightest crap about whether it has 50k or 500k or 5 million.  It just doesn't matter to me.  To me quality indicates quality, popularity indicates that something appeals more to the lowest common denominator and by extension that it's probably less appealing to me.

     I don't want to play with people making such statements. Elitist much?

    what does elitist have to do with it?  

     

    yes, i tend not to like the stuff that the majority like, I don't see how that makes me elitist.  yes, I prefer harvey's to McDonalds.  Yes, I prefer sushi to steak.  Yes, I prefer Firefly to American Idol.  Yes, I want to go on vacation to Antarctica instead of Florida.   Yes, I played Anarchy Online instead of Everquest.  Yes, I liked Winter's Bone more than I did Harry Potter.  Yes, I like Florence and the Machine instead of Justin Bieber.  Yes, I like China Mieville instead of whoever wrote twilight.    

     

    Those are just some examples, but on almost all fronts, when it comes to taste, mine tends to be different from the majority.  Things created to appeal to the masses tend to be the least saturated / most diluted.  I tend to like things that are more specific.  Not sure how any of it make me elitist, but if it does, I guess I'll take it.  Sorry, you're just not good enough to join my exclusive club of people that dislike McDonald's, bugger off now.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • ShnurfyShnurfy Member Posts: 9

    Originally posted by arieste 

    Sorry, you're just not good enough to join my exclusive club of people that dislike McDonald's, bugger off now.

     

    ^ This made me almost spit coffee out on my keyboard at work lol, well said.

    My 2cp, i have played both games. EQ2 far more than WoW, mind you. I found aspects of both that I liked and disliked, but I find myself going back to EQ2 all the time. I played EQ2 from launch for 4 years, right before Kunark. Raided 5 nights a week and logged countless hours running guildies through instances and making money. So i ended up getting burnt out and let my subscription end. A few months later a buddy start bugging me to play WoW with him and his g/f, so I gave it a go.

    When i first started playing, rolled a human warlock, I admit i was turned off by the "cartoonish" graphics and ugly UI. But after playing a bit, you hardly notice it as they seem to blend in and go with the game (for lack of better explanation). Questing i found fun and the simplicity of crafting was a real nice change, from EQ2. I played for about 6 months, never reached max lvl, but that was because i spent more time playing AH than leveling. the economy in WoW was awsome at the time. I remember spending 2 weeks driving the price of wool up to 3-4 times what it was, haha. But simple stuff like that kept me playing for the time. After the 6 months i was bored and let my sub run its path.

    I tried WAR and Aion and wasn't impressed, so I went back to EQ2 and rejoined my friends in my old guild. It didn't take long to remember why I loved EQ2 so much(the following is my own opinion on what i like in games).

    Player Housing! lol before i never paid attention to it but when i returned i bought one of the large 5 bedroom houses and started decorating. I was in luck cause i had a freind who was able to craft w/e i wanted to put in it. I spent weeks moving stuff and building stuff out of crafted items(fireplaces, additional stories in rooms ect.).

    I finally started crafting on a few toons also. My main I started Transmuting, think its called disenchanting in WoW, and took up Alch on an alt. Remembering how much i used to curse for having to buy potions from the broker all the tinme when raiding, and how easier it would be to craft them lol. Although crafting is a HUGH grind in eq2, I prefer it to Wow. In Wow i would harvest x amount of Tin, go stand near a forge, tell it to make x amount of bars and go AFK . I found with EQ2, i felt far more accomplished when i raise a Tradeskill Level, instead of a skill point.

    Like I said i liked aspects of WoW over EQ2 and aspects of EQ2 over WoW. Someone said in there post before that people sometimes prefer game A over B because they played A first. I might be like that with EQ2. It just has aspects that I look for in a game.

    Currently playing EQ2 again and I plan on checking out Cata, through a buddys account. The changes sound like it would be cool to run around again, but can't see me going back.

    Cheers

  • ChieftanChieftan Member UncommonPosts: 1,188

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by Chieftan

    The quickest way to see how much EQ2 was influenced by WoW is to try starting in Qeynos/Freeport instead of Kelethin/Neriak/Halas. 

    In the classic cities you have to zone 3 times before you find a place to level and quest...if you get lucky and go to the right place.  You basically get lost in the old cities for a little while until you figure out where the frick to go just to kill stuff.

    The newer starting areas are confined to one zone and don't direct you into the capitol city until at least level ten.  They even made Kelethin and Halas's newbie areas and capitol cities all one zone. 

    The newer adventure zones are still big but there's quests crammed into every nook and cranny just like WoW.  Go to any of the original zones and you'll feel like you're running a cross country marathon in the Mojave Desert.

    Actually, you didn't start in Qeynos or Freeport.  You could start on the Isle of Refuge,  where you were confined to one zone and expected to make level 6 or so before moving to one of the suburbs / racial villages, where you would spend the next 4-5 levels until finally venturing into Qeynos or Freeport proper.  

    Qeynos and Freeport were intended to be hub cities(that means lots of player traffic) for both lowbies and high levels but everybody does their banking and trading in the WoWified new cities.  The new WoW-like hunting zones have decent traffic while places like the Commonlands and Nektulos are barren.

    All I'm saying is I would have liked to have seen a little more originality instead of the developers letting WoW dictate how they built their content.

    My youtube MMO gaming channel



  • kinidokinido Member UncommonPosts: 429

    Originally posted by Chieftan

    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by Chieftan

    The quickest way to see how much EQ2 was influenced by WoW is to try starting in Qeynos/Freeport instead of Kelethin/Neriak/Halas. 

    In the classic cities you have to zone 3 times before you find a place to level and quest...if you get lucky and go to the right place.  You basically get lost in the old cities for a little while until you figure out where the frick to go just to kill stuff.

    The newer starting areas are confined to one zone and don't direct you into the capitol city until at least level ten.  They even made Kelethin and Halas's newbie areas and capitol cities all one zone. 

    The newer adventure zones are still big but there's quests crammed into every nook and cranny just like WoW.  Go to any of the original zones and you'll feel like you're running a cross country marathon in the Mojave Desert.

    Actually, you didn't start in Qeynos or Freeport.  You could start on the Isle of Refuge,  where you were confined to one zone and expected to make level 6 or so before moving to one of the suburbs / racial villages, where you would spend the next 4-5 levels until finally venturing into Qeynos or Freeport proper.  

    Qeynos and Freeport were intended to be hub cities(that means lots of player traffic) for both lowbies and high levels but everybody does their banking and trading in the WoWified new cities.  The new WoW-like hunting zones have decent traffic while places like the Commonlands and Nektulos are barren.

    All I'm saying is I would have liked to have seen a little more originality instead of the developers letting WoW dictate how they built their content.

    They are basing the zones off of EQ1 btw, since Faydark was just two zones together in old EQ, since the city was up in the skys, you had plenty of areas to solo right under neath you, and you even had Crushbone one zone above you. They are modeling it after the old zones, so you cant say it was modeled after WoW when you have to look at the original to see where they are going after :P 

    PS - All mammals have nipples.

    Get over it already.


    image

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Chieftan.  

    Qeynos and Freeport were intended to be hub cities(that means lots of player traffic) for both lowbies and high levels but everybody does their banking and trading in the WoWified new cities.  The new WoW-like hunting zones have decent traffic while places like the Commonlands and Nektulos are barren.

    All I'm saying is I would have liked to have seen a little more originality instead of the developers letting WoW dictate how they built their content.

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with WoW.  Qeynos and Freeport did act as HUBs, for years and even after new cities were added.  The reason they became empty wasn't because of new cities, it was because of guild halls.  Everyone in the game got a "Call to guild hall" spell on a 15min reuse timer and guild halls have all amenities, including broker, crafting and travel, all arranged in a nice little space next to each other for convenience.

     

    Added cities like Neriak and Gorowyn are even more abandoned than Freeport and Qeynos.  They get used the same way the newbie island did, for level 1-15, then people leave them forever and never come back.

     

    Long before WoW, games like AO used re-do their starting area with every expansion and make a new more updated experience for players which left the original starting areas barren.  Again, as much as I'd like to blame WoW for the downfall in gaming, the thing is that WoW has very  little stuff that's original enough to copy.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • ChieftanChieftan Member UncommonPosts: 1,188

    I laughed a little at the above replies.  Nothing about EQ2's gameplay and world design is similar to the first game(using some of the same names for places doesn't count).  And putting floating books and feathers over quest NPCs heads isn't exactly inventing the wheel.

    By far the most original aspect of EQ2 is the crafting grind, which is more Brad McQuadian than anything else in the game.

    Just because EQ2 more or less scrapped everything unique about itself to become a WoW clone doesn't make it a bad MMO.  It's just frustrating when you can't find a decent MMO alternative to the quest-heavy solo-god-mode  WoW formula.

    My youtube MMO gaming channel



  • thamighty213thamighty213 Member UncommonPosts: 1,637

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by Daffid011

    If eq2 offered superior gameplay, graphics and content than the rest of the market, what is holding it back? 

    See my post above.  The sad fact is that popularity is dictated very little by quality.  Half the time it's the opposite and the highest quality products end up crashing and burning.  Nothing is holding EQ2 back, it's still a good game in comparison to most of the stuff on the market.  

     

    When it comes to PvE, grouping and endgame, I'm yet to play any game that offered any reason to switch and I've tried nearly every MMO out there except for WoW, which just has awful graphics and art design that I can't get over and the fact that it's such a total joke of a world (not that EQ2 is much better in the world regard).  

     

    I'm pretty sure that if I did try WoW despite the graphics, my reaction would be pretty much the same as when trying AION or AoC or Vanguard or LoTRO, which was: "well, pretty much same shit as EQ2".

     

    EQ2 still has a ton of servers up, full support and is releasing tons of new content for the game.  To me as a player, it is enough of a success due to those factors.  If EQ2 suddenly got really popular, added 50 servers and stopped producing expacs for 5 years, it really wouldn't change my opinion of how good it is in a positive direction.  

     

    I think 10 years is a good lifespan for a game and 6 years in or so, I expect a game to be where EQ2 is.   The next game I'm looking forward to is Rift and if it is fun to play, keeps populated servers and released a major expac every year for the next 5 years, I don't give the slightest crap about whether it has 50k or 500k or 5 million.  It just doesn't matter to me.  To me quality indicates quality, popularity indicates that something appeals more to the lowest common denominator and by extension that it's probably less appealing to me.

    [1]

    As for your comparisons. 

    McDonalds DOES rate extremely high in quality among FAST FOOD chains.  Making a comparions of SIMILAR products is key when you try to make a comparison. 

    The rest of your examples are also taken out of context as most people do when they try this line of debating.  Justin Beiber and Twilight are books written for children and teenagers.  They are and never were meant to be literary masterpeices, but for there proper market, they are great works.  Again, keeping things in perspective these things make sense.  It is a flawed line of discussion used to disprove a comment that wasn't made in the first place. 

    Even still, as the market grew for McDonalds, their competition grew as well.   People still made choices despite the theory that no one will break from the herd mentality.  Many new chains have started up and grown into successful companies.  There wasn't some massive decline in every other food chain due to McD's, like we have seen with wow vs the rest of the market. 

     

    [2]

    Wait, you have never even tried wow, but you have come to the conclusion that it is a joke world and the success isn't a result of quality?  That doesn't seem entirely objective. 

    Cool if you don't like the graphics of wow and you enjoy eq2, but this isn't about your individual needs and how you avoid anything popular, because it might appeal to the lowest common denominator. 

    It is about EQ2 being something that people are saying is higher quality and having a better experience than anything else on the market, but at the same time suffering a steady decline, multiple sets of server mergers, more lead designer/producer changes than it has had expansion and a playerbase that has a general lack of faith/trust in the developers ability to make quality additions to the game.

    If eq2 offered such an experience why isn't it attracting more players and retaining them?  If wow is so low quality as you imply, do even burned out wow players desperate for another mmo not flock to eq2? 

    not chiming on the wow v eq2 but your point 1 is flawed when your pointing out flaws in others reasoning best to ensure your own is correct.

     

    Wow has not swallowed up the entire world many MMO's are ticking over with what was the sub average before WOW if anything WOW has fueled these MMO's.

     

    Would WAR, AOC Aion have sold 1m units at release pre WOW not a cat in hells chance would be lucky to pull 250k perhaps with 250k more growth to plateau point yet all 3 of those games did just that all fueled by WOW,  would 100s of MMO's have popped up if the money men hadnt seen the WOW numbers definately not.

     

    WOW has fueled the MMO industry (good or bad I'll not go into I have my opinions on it but not for this post) it has not sent it or any other company into decline.

    Any MMO that has closed, bombed etc has done so on its own accord without any influence of WoW.

     

    You can use this across any genre in the past there has always been some game come along and redefined the numbers people would expect to play it.

     

    Lets use FPS and the call of duty phenomena COD is a terrible game since COD4 its absolutely linear garbage with terrible multiplayer yet its smashing record all over simply because of the sheep phenomena yet at the same time it has fueled the FPS industry to higher figures take the recent release of the Medal of Honor reboot which smashed all records for a fps release yet was a absolutely terrible game.

     

    Some things I agree with you on you can;t always use direct comparisons so the one i always like to go back to is MP3 players.

     

    My sony phone does everything a IPOD does and how many kids have phones yet how many do you see with IPODS why get a IPOD when you already have something that has the same function but makes telephone calls etc quite simply because they are fad loving sheep and thats all WoW is a fad.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by thamighty213

     

    My sony phone does everything a IPOD does and how many kids have phones yet how many do you see with IPODS why get a IPOD when you already have something that has the same function but makes telephone calls etc quite simply because they are fad loving sheep and thats all WoW is a fad.

    Believe it or not the mmo market was already booming before wow came along.  There were tons of companies already lining up to make mmos after the success of UO and EQ, so yes the 100's of games were coming. 

    Wow just gave gamers what they wanted.  Previous games didn't and that is why they never tapped into the market that was just waiting to give money to a good game.  It has always been there, growing each year as online gaming becomes more accepted as a past time. 

    As for wow being a fad, how can that be when other games are selling 1 million boxes at release?  People want to play mmos.  They just don't want to play poorly managed lack luster mmos.   If wow didn't crack the market open, then some other game would have.  Eventually other companies will get their collective heads out of their asses and start delivering decent games.  Then we should start seeing the market even out. 

    It isn't like people playing wow are incapable of enjoying another online game.  When people who get bored of their current shooter game, they move to the next one.  Ask yourself why that doesn't happen in the mmo genre and then take a serious look at the competition.  At a 3% churn rate, wow losses 360,000 players a month.   What is preventing those people from trying the mmo that is right next to the wow boxes at best buy or amazon? 

     

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