The reasons speak for as is. There have been a lot of games that have come out that made a ton of promises, and then failed to deliver. Then you had some games come out then changed the entire way they done things, thus again making me turn around and wonder why.
I try to be optimistic but with the track record games have nowadays I have to error on the side of caution. I tend to try these games but then get sadly disappointed.
I will use the following as case in example.
(1) Sto lots of promises failed to deliver on all of them, major complaint store is everything in a play to pay.
(2) Warhammer lots of promises, game also failed to live up to the hype
(3) Lotro was great at first, somewhere along the way we got twisted up with Mines of Moria, the game went downhill, now they went free to play, Most of what the game is now relies on the store and on repeatable content. Lotro forgot what it was to push out regular land mass updates, now it only caters to the me crowd. Same for DDO.
(4) Stargate Worlds what can I say 5 years of development and nothing, a ponzi scheme at best, failure to deliver on everything.
(5) AOC, I got to say they delivered on the combat, however there are lots of other things so wrong with that game. I have to say that it was way over hyped and only 25% delivered on the hype.
So now that I point all that out now I have to say now do you understand why I don't buy all they hype nowadays, look at everything we been disappointed by. Oh I got another 10 pages I could add to this list.
Nowadays, the worst part of any game for me is all the people crapping on the game. I don't sit around critiquing every game, I just find something that I think is fun about it and go with that. It's really not much different than when we were kids, and could find fun ways to play with boxes and empty wrapping-paper-tubes.
Everyone that logs into a game and then proceeds to vent inside the game about how they think 'the game is crap' is making it less fun for everyone else. If you can't find the fun in simple, imperfect things anymore, then you've developed a serious change in your personality that's going to affect a lot more than your gaming life.
Nowadays, the worst part of any game for me is all the people crapping on the game. I don't sit around critiquing every game, I just find something that I think is fun about it and go with that. It's really not much different than when we were kids, and could find fun ways to play with boxes and empty wrapping-paper-tubes.
Everyone that logs into a game and then proceeds to vent inside the game about how they think 'the game is crap' is making it less fun for everyone else. If you can't find the fun in simple, imperfect things anymore, then you've developed a serious change in your personality that's going to affect a lot more than your gaming life.
I see this all the time in just about any game i play. There was a discussion in 1-9 chat tonight about how bad eq2 has been. I see this kind of thing and think if its so bad why not leave, but when you look at it they payed for a sub, and got a rite to complain. After all your paying to play, you should complain if things are not right, and if your not happen then don't sub.
Or if your like me and made the mistake of getting a lifetime sub to lotro, yes I will pick on that game forevre until they decide to go back to the way it was before mom, they got my cash, I was with the dirrection of the game until they decided to turn it to crud and give the me crowd and folks with tons of disposable income the i wind button.
What I find especially interesting, are people who act surprised that some games just aren't good or for them.
They keep naming off bad games or games they didn't enjoy, and are using them as a reason to be sour posters/people. What makes it even worse is they're seemingly taking pride in it, which really makes no sense.
Every genre has bad games, it's just with most genre's there are far more games to choose from in any given time span. People find the one they want and play it. MMO's are released much more sporadic, so it does make sense that these failures are a lot more noticeable.
Yet it doesn't make sense that people become bitter and jaded, simply because every game doesn't meet their criteria or standards.
There's a possibility for every game to come out bad, so there's no reason to be a Debbie downer over it when it happens. Life is far too short to worry about crap like that. All you can do is offer feedback or move on. Kicking and screaming, insulting people or companies, souring communities and generally being hard asses solves nothing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Great article Bill! As I read all the above comments it seems like some of the most negative ones echoed the same thing. Too many people know that the hype surrounding a game is always going to be a lie in some regard but they keep on drinking it up only to get disappointed every single time. I'm not a doubtful gamer because I disregard 99% of what comes out of other people's mouths when it comes to what a game will be. I am a disappointed gamer, though. My disappointment is almost entirely from within myself and usually has nothing to do with the game itself. AOC was a fun game but I quit anyway as it lacked the community that made me enjoy other games. After three months of playing I had the fun of not being accepted into or offered a single spot in a group. It was like a really fun solo game that cost a ton of money so I left. I quit WoW for a similar reason. I got groups every day but the people I met were always the same. All business, no chatting, just stfu and finish this dungeon so we can do another please... It felt as if I was trying to make friends with a bunch of rejects at a line of slot machines. It was like they were only there to stare at the screen as they waited for a random prize. I like to have a good laugh and have fun when I play games and without other people looking for the same, games just won't cut it for me, no matter how good they are.
Since most of my real friends have moved into FPS games, that's what I've done as well. SWTOR is the only thing on the horizon that any of us are looking forward to. And if it sucks, there's always Counter-Strike to play.
I believe the corrcet quote is: "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and expect to be surprised."
As for the article, I am still looking for my next game. I gave up on DAoC after their Archery patch years ago.
AoC was hyped enough, but their combat system lacked limits, so every duel became a circle-strafing loop. Add the poorly implemented PvP system and sieges, and separate PvP and PvE gear, and I bid farewell after a year or so.
LotRO had very many things going for it, and I might return once more to Middle-earth when Rohan expansion comes. The reason I left was that combat became boring, and I usually ended up typing 1-2-3-4, and back to 1 if it has recycled.
These days I occupy my time in DDO. I really like the combat system there, but would have loved to see a different world. If Turbine implemented DDOs combat system in LotRO I would be back in a flash.
If I am to get excited about a new title, then it would need a solid background and a balanced combat system that is fun. DAoC did it with King Arthur, vikings, and Celts, why not a game with Greece vs Rome/Egypt vs Carthage?
Doubtful gamers are made, not born. They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.
Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.
Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).
Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends. Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't mind doubtful gamers. Recent history has not shown any AAA companies can release an MMO that is anywhere near as good as the hype they put out about the games.
What really gets on my nerves are the people who repeatedly whine about how WoW has destroyed their ability to enjoy playing games. If the "old school" games are better, go play them. What? They're boring? They have a low population? Well, duh, people got tired of playing them. That's why we're all doubtfully looking at all the new MMO games coming out to see if any of them are decent. Quit whining about it and play something else or find something else to do.
I really wish I could, what with SWG being murdered and all.
Doubtful gamers are made, not born. They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.
Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.
Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).
Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends. Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.
One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.
That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else. It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.
Doubtful gamers are made, not born. They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.
Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.
Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).
Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends. Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.
One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.
That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else. It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.
If we were to find a game we enjoyed, we wouldn't complain. That's the whole problem with the last 6 years, there's been nothing worthwhile. Nothing has even come close to living up to the hype created around them because It's been the same half-baked ideas that are half-finished.
The upcoming MMOs may change this, but they may very well not either. Personally I'll wait to see how they turn out, but I'm definately not getting my hopes up. I would rather be skeptical and then pleasently surprised, than optimistic and then let down.
Doubtful gamers are made, not born. They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.
Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.
Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).
Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends. Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.
One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.
That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else. It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.
If we were to find a game we enjoyed, we wouldn't complain. That's the whole problem with the last 6 years, there's been nothing worthwhile. Nothing has even come close to living up to the hype created around them because It's been the same half-baked ideas that are half-finished.
The upcoming MMOs may change this, but they may very well not either. Personally I'll wait to see how they turn out, but I'm definately not getting my hopes up. I would rather be skeptical and then pleasently surprised, than optimistic and then let down.
We? There's no "we". You speak as though it were a unified front.
It's not.
Sure, there will be "doubtfuls" that share your enjoyment of a particular game, but there will be others that won't. Contrary to popular belief, not all "doubtful gamers" are looking for exactly the same thing, or have exactly the same complaints.
So, when a game comes out that satisfies one set, but not the others - the venom and angst from the unsatisfied "doubtfuls" will continue. In that scenario, who will be "right"?
Of course, no one will be right, just as no one has really been "right" about games of the last 6 years. Even those who believe their "doubtful" opinion equates to unmitigated fact, and those that deign to speak for the whole MMO community, or at least for the community of "doubtfuls".
The statement made earlier - that many MMO players think all games should be made to please them personally - is quite accurate. The MMO community, like MMOs themselves, needs to mature.
being a doubtful gamer is being a realist. No point in jumping on every hype train because how many times have they not met that hype? If they're any good when they come out I know I'll be the first to sing it's praises very quickly. I mean I can tell you I was completely unexcited by say WoW catalysm but having tried it and yeah I know it's good. (not my cup of tea but it's difficult to dispute it's quality)
We? There's no "we". You speak as though it were a unified front.
It's not.
Sure, there will be "doubtfuls" that share your enjoyment of a particular game, but there will be others that won't. Contrary to popular belief, not all "doubtful gamers" are looking for exactly the same thing, or have exactly the same complaints.
So, when a game comes out that satisfies one set, but not the others - the venom and angst from the unsatisfied "doubtfuls" will continue. In that scenario, who will be "right"?
Of course, no one will be right, just as no one has really been "right" about games of the last 6 years. Even those who believe their "doubtful" opinion equates to unmitigated fact, and those that deign to speak for the whole MMO community, or at least for the community of "doubtfuls".
The statement made earlier - that many MMO players think all games should be made to please them personally - is quite accurate. The MMO community, like MMOs themselves, needs to mature.
I never intended to imply that there was any manner of consensus among doubtful gamers, well, aside from the belief that most modern MMOs suck.
The point I was trying to get across is that each doubtful gamer is unsatisfied with the current trend of MMOs. We are unhappy, we've been burned, that's why we're doubtful. That's the common link that makes doubtful gamers doubtful.
What each of us desires in an MMO is unique to our personal tastes. When I say 'we will stop complaining when we find a game we enjoy', I'm speaking of a one on one scenario per gamer. In the future if, and when, an MMO comes out to satisfy the void of an enjoyable MMO per each of our personal preferences, said individuals will no longer feel the need to complain, because they will be content in their niche of the market. The other doubtful gamers will go on and continue to be doubtful until MMOs to meet each of their personal preferences come along and give them a reason to no logner be doubtful.
You may consider doubtful gamers selfish for complaining that MMOs aren't the way "they want them to be". I believe the contrary.
My desire for an MMO with a great deal of depth, freedom, and tools to allow players to have an impact on the gameworld does not detract from you. My opinions and wants for an MMO are just that, opinions and wants. My criticisms do not opress nor take away from you, they are just an expression of the lack of a fulfilling MMO experience for my personal preference in gameplay.
We get that the industry has changed. We get that there is more money in catering to the casual market. That does not however, mean that we have to shut up and accept it. We are free to express our opinions and views, that's the whole point of forums dedicated to the discussion of MMOs. You cannot have meaningful discussions if you only talk about the positives and compltely ignore the negatives.
Personally I think that a lot of the animosity agaisnt doubtful gamers, is that many of the people who are content somehow take it personally that other people hold personal criticisms against their choice in entertainment. If you enjoy WoW or are looking forward to SWTOR, good for you. You're perfectly free to feel that way. My criticisms and critiques as to the existing or potential shortcomings of said games is my opinion. If that for some reason upsets or offends you, then I really don't know what to tell you.
That's life, people have different opinions. The notion that doubtful gamers are anymore selfish than any other MMO gamer is nonsense. All gamers want to play games that meet their preferences. The difference is that doubtful gamers have been burned by games that either no longer meet their preferences, or were promised games that would but never delivered.
I'm somewhere between Doubtful and Enthusiastic. I waver back and forth between them on a regular basis. There are times when every game on the horizon sucks and I figure I'll never bother with MMO's again, other times when they all look so good that I can't wait to play them!
Then I get into a Beta and they all suck again.
Or a new news post comes out and I'm happy all over.
Or a game I passed on lauch gives me a free trial and I'm happy again or I return to an old flame and see how things haven't changed and I see stagnation. It's a repeating cycle of doom and joy.
Then again I know I have a short attention span when it comes to games and I have to admit that for me any game that can hold my attention more than six months goes into my "all time games" section.
Current Game: Asssasins Creed 2(PS3, Gamer Tag: Happy_Hubby) Current MMO: World of Warcraft and World of Tanks Former Subscribed MMO: Star Trek Online, Aion, WoW, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shattered Galaxy, 10six. Tried: Too many to list
"Why on Earth would I want to ruin what precious few days I get to experience the good parts of life by crapping all over everything that tries to give me enjoyment ?"
Good statement.
Playing: Lotro Have Played: EQII,DAOC,SWG,COH,EQ,DDO, Lotro,AoC, EvE,Guild Wars, Silkroad Online,Aion,and WoW Favorite of all time: WoW Waiting on:Swtor,Gw2, and Tera
I'm positive I would be labeled as a "doubtful gamer". But I think the perception of what motivates the doubtful gamer is still not quite understood.
I wasn't always a doubtful gamer. I use to be a very enthusiastic gamer. I looked forward to new MMOs with great anticipation. Over the years however, I've seen countless MMOs rise and fall, many of which were vastly overhyped. And there's the core of it, for me anyways.
Hype.
As a doubtful gamer, I can't stand hype. It annoys me to no end, like being in an elevator with someone who won't get off their cellphone. Hearing endless chatter about how "awsome", "groundbreaking", and "innovative" a new MMO will be grates on my nerves.
Why? Quite simply, I'm sick of the cycle.
Time and time again in the modern MMO market, gamers get whipped up into a ravenous frenzy over the next new MMO. The game could be a month, or years, away from release, yet players paint pictures, and worst of all, opinions and reviews of MMOs long before they ever play them. They create impossible images about just how good the games will be so that, when the games are finally released, their self created beliefs of what the MMO would be comes crashing down around them.
Half finished or outright missing game mechanics, bugs, exploits, or game mechanics that are just plain boring in practice even though they sounded good on paper.
Yet despite this cycle of over-hyping MMOs, and failed expectations, so many gamers can't seem to stop from getting caught up in all of it.
That's where I as a doubtful gamer fall into the picture. I am the anti-hype. I don't want said MMO to fail or be bad. If anything, I want it to be a fun and enjoyable MMO, so I have another decent choice in MMOs to play.
The criticism from the doubtful gamer is not a bad thing. By questioning the valididity of the design choices of developers, we encourage critical thinking and analysis of game mechanics. This can help expose the "sounds good on paper" mechanics by offering alternative views or issues that were not otherwise considered before.
In the end, realize that the doubtful gamer does not want failure, they want success. We are simply jaded from past failures, and are much more hesitant to support an MMO until we have hard evidence that said MMO is good. That means actually seeing the finished product in action.
Forming an opinion on whether an MMO is good or not should be based around actually partaking in the finished game, and not being caught up in hype like so many people do these days.
I totally agree with this. Doubtful customer = smart customer. Period.
It's called being a saavy consumer. Rather then drooling all over ourselves every time some Developer dangles a bright, flashy marketing campaign in front of our eyes.... we bother to check under the hood to see if the engine is likely to fall apart the first time some-one turns on the ignition. That's a Good Thing (tm). While it may seem like it's raining on some-ones parade, it's actualy letting the companies producing these goods that they can't get away by producing shoddy products and selling them by means of a slick marketing campaign.
I'm sure there are plenty of folks in the industry that are very talented and take true pride in the craftsmenship of the products they sell. However, there are also no shortage of guys (just as in ANY other industry) who just want to walk away with as much of your money as they can for as little effort as possible. Some of those people even run very large companies. So having cynics like us around actualy helps all gamers (IMO) and the industry as a whole....as it helps keep developers honest and lets them know that the best way to make a proffit is to produce a high quality product...not run a slick advertising campaign. The only people who should be unhappy about that, are those who make thier living from running slick advertising campaigns.
I don't understand why people cite "hype" as the reason for their doubtfulness. I don't care how much or how little hype a game has, when it is released it is either fun to play or not. Sure, the fact that nothing good has come out recently and all those games have used the internet's free advertisement capabilities to the fullest is there. The two are not connected, though. If a good game had come out, it would have the same hype system in place. The sad fact is that we are in a 6 year dry period.
The only thing that would happen without hype is that if a good game *were* released, it would fail. I doubt anyone wants that.
I'm positive I would be labeled as a "doubtful gamer". But I think the perception of what motivates the doubtful gamer is still not quite understood.
I wasn't always a doubtful gamer. I use to be a very enthusiastic gamer. I looked forward to new MMOs with great anticipation. Over the years however, I've seen countless MMOs rise and fall, many of which were vastly overhyped. And there's the core of it, for me anyways.
Hype.
As a doubtful gamer, I can't stand hype. It annoys me to no end, like being in an elevator with someone who won't get off their cellphone. Hearing endless chatter about how "awsome", "groundbreaking", and "innovative" a new MMO will be grates on my nerves.
Why? Quite simply, I'm sick of the cycle.
Time and time again in the modern MMO market, gamers get whipped up into a ravenous frenzy over the next new MMO. The game could be month, or years, away from release, yet players paint pictures, and worst of all, opinions and reviews of MMOs long before they ever play them. They create impossible images about just how good the games will be so that, when the games are finally released, their self created beliefs of what the MMO would be comes crashing down around them.
Half finished or outright missing game mechanics, bugs, exploits, or game mechanics that are just plain boring in practice even though they sounded good on paper.
Yet despite this cycle of over-hyping MMOs, and failed expectations, so many gamers can't seem to stop from getting caught up in all of it.
That's where I as a doubtful gamer fall into the picture. I am the anti-hype. I don't want said MMO to fail or be bad. If anything, I was it to be a fun and enjoyable MMO, so I have another decent choice in MMOs to play.
The criticism from the doubtful gamer is not a bad thing. By questioning the valididity of the design choices of developers, we encourage critical thinking and analysis of game mechanics. This can help expose the "sounds good on paper" mechanics by offering alternative views or issues that were not otherwise considered before.
In the end, realize that the doubtful gamer does not want failure, they want success. We are simply jaded from past failures, and are much more hesitant to support an MMO until we have hard evidence that said MMO is good. That means actually seeing the finished product in action.
Forming an opinion on whether an MMO is good or not should be based around actually partaking in the finished game, and not being caught up in hype like so many people do these days.
Very well said. How can you not be doubtful about this industry as a whole when you see consistently mediocre games being released none of which come close to living up to the hype that preceeded them. I do hope upcoming games like Rift, SWTOR, TERA, etc. can change this, but I am certainly not getting my hopes up. I do wish one of these games would base their avatar advancement on skill rather than levels and present some challenges instead of giving in to the "I want it now" crowd.
These two comments echo my sentiments as well as Ceridith's second comment. Very well said.
Lump me solidly in the doubtful gamer catagory.
Being doubtful doesn't really mean much to me. Whats the point of being doubtful of a game that you have no relation to? Questioning features because you think that maybe somewhere the execution could be off, or the developer won't deliver, may encourage critical thinking, but not constructive reasoning.
Games are not as simple as we pretend they are. A feature list is kind of a road map that developers hand out to players to tell them what they should expect to see. The reality of these features could be very different, and sometimes it may not even be noticeable to the developers until the game is 2 years into development.
What we have here, on this forum, are many complaints on systems that people don't understand, or don't want to understand. One thing we cannot ever do is know what the finalized product will be before it has been created. Trying to decry developers intentions by stating their systems may be false, won't work out that way, or pretending to know better then them, isn't really a good basis to improve players qualities of gaming.
Some "doubtful gamers" seem more pessimistic then doubtful, spending their time trying to even out the hype as if it is there job to keep players grounded. Hype and expectation in my belief are just two major problems I see with upcoming MMOs and their failure to meet player "demands". On the other hand, on these forums, misinformation is another big part of what keeps players from playing a game they could find enjoyable, and this misinformation is often times spread by those that are "doubtful" that a company is able to deliver on their feature set.
Maybe my lines between "doubtful" and "hater" are skewed, but on these forums those with hatred consider themselves just "doubtful".
In my book, I'd rather have a player play a game they were interested in and decide they don't like it, instead of being fearful of trying the next game because they are doubtful the game will provide a fun and engrossing experience. Gamers, doubtful or certain on their stance on upcoming games are not weights to be balanced on a scale. We don't need to balance eachother out. There are no winners or losers here. We are all here for the same thing.
The idea that players have no capacity to understand, analyze or properly critique game systems because we don't have the same sort of knowledge or experience of working on games is utter bunk.
Firstly it ignores the fact that many of the people who comment here actualy DO have development or other relavent proffesional experience. Secondly hobbiests who have extensive experience using the products a company produces are EXACTLY the type of people (other then Developers themselves) to provide critical analsys of proposed mechanics.
As a hunter in real life, I don't know how to build a rifle myself...but I do have a very good understanding about many of the design properties which make one useful in the field. For instance, if some-one produces a short, feather-weight rifle in high caliber with no recoil-pad and no mounts for a sling... I'm going to question them about how they expect to deal with recoil and how they'll assist the shooter in steadying his shot...and if the designer can't provide a good answer for that, then that's a big huge red flag.
I don't understand why people cite "hype" as the reason for their doubtfulness. I don't care how much or how little hype a game has, when it is released it is either fun to play or not. Sure, the fact that nothing good has come out recently and all those games have used the internet's free advertisement capabilities to the fullest is there. The two are not connected, though. If a good game had come out, it would have the same hype system in place. The sad fact is that we are in a 6 year dry period.
The only thing that would happen without hype is that if a good game *were* released, it would fail. I doubt anyone wants that.
They absolutely are related...it's all about maximizing proffit and what you put your resources into....
A) Spend $5 on advertising/marketing and $2 on production/development results in $20 worth of sales.
Spend $2 on advertising/marketing and $10 on production/development results in $19 worth of sales.
Which option do you think the average suit at a SONY or EA style corporation will choose?
The more effective that HYPE is in producing sales....the more money they'll spend on it (and believe me they DO spend money on generating hype) and the less money they'll devote to actualy producing the product. If you can get good sales from HYPE alone...then you don't even need to bother having much of a production budget. That was the whole concept behind the Cryptic model.
So as consumers, it behooves us to try to minimize the importance/effect/impact of HYPE as much as we can....and rub it into the noses of the people running these companies that the only effective way to get sales is by producing a good quality product.
Comments
I have to say I am the doubtful gamer as well.
The reasons speak for as is. There have been a lot of games that have come out that made a ton of promises, and then failed to deliver. Then you had some games come out then changed the entire way they done things, thus again making me turn around and wonder why.
I try to be optimistic but with the track record games have nowadays I have to error on the side of caution. I tend to try these games but then get sadly disappointed.
I will use the following as case in example.
(1) Sto lots of promises failed to deliver on all of them, major complaint store is everything in a play to pay.
(2) Warhammer lots of promises, game also failed to live up to the hype
(3) Lotro was great at first, somewhere along the way we got twisted up with Mines of Moria, the game went downhill, now they went free to play, Most of what the game is now relies on the store and on repeatable content. Lotro forgot what it was to push out regular land mass updates, now it only caters to the me crowd. Same for DDO.
(4) Stargate Worlds what can I say 5 years of development and nothing, a ponzi scheme at best, failure to deliver on everything.
(5) AOC, I got to say they delivered on the combat, however there are lots of other things so wrong with that game. I have to say that it was way over hyped and only 25% delivered on the hype.
So now that I point all that out now I have to say now do you understand why I don't buy all they hype nowadays, look at everything we been disappointed by. Oh I got another 10 pages I could add to this list.
Nowadays, the worst part of any game for me is all the people crapping on the game. I don't sit around critiquing every game, I just find something that I think is fun about it and go with that. It's really not much different than when we were kids, and could find fun ways to play with boxes and empty wrapping-paper-tubes.
Everyone that logs into a game and then proceeds to vent inside the game about how they think 'the game is crap' is making it less fun for everyone else. If you can't find the fun in simple, imperfect things anymore, then you've developed a serious change in your personality that's going to affect a lot more than your gaming life.
I see this all the time in just about any game i play. There was a discussion in 1-9 chat tonight about how bad eq2 has been. I see this kind of thing and think if its so bad why not leave, but when you look at it they payed for a sub, and got a rite to complain. After all your paying to play, you should complain if things are not right, and if your not happen then don't sub.
Or if your like me and made the mistake of getting a lifetime sub to lotro, yes I will pick on that game forevre until they decide to go back to the way it was before mom, they got my cash, I was with the dirrection of the game until they decided to turn it to crud and give the me crowd and folks with tons of disposable income the i wind button.
What I find especially interesting, are people who act surprised that some games just aren't good or for them.
They keep naming off bad games or games they didn't enjoy, and are using them as a reason to be sour posters/people. What makes it even worse is they're seemingly taking pride in it, which really makes no sense.
Every genre has bad games, it's just with most genre's there are far more games to choose from in any given time span. People find the one they want and play it. MMO's are released much more sporadic, so it does make sense that these failures are a lot more noticeable.
Yet it doesn't make sense that people become bitter and jaded, simply because every game doesn't meet their criteria or standards.
There's a possibility for every game to come out bad, so there's no reason to be a Debbie downer over it when it happens. Life is far too short to worry about crap like that. All you can do is offer feedback or move on. Kicking and screaming, insulting people or companies, souring communities and generally being hard asses solves nothing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My philosophy for everything from weather to games to travel is "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and expect something in between".
AVGN!! LOL!
Well, doggone.
Last week, I thought we were supposed to allow everyone to have his own opinion--or was that another columnist?
Great article Bill! As I read all the above comments it seems like some of the most negative ones echoed the same thing. Too many people know that the hype surrounding a game is always going to be a lie in some regard but they keep on drinking it up only to get disappointed every single time. I'm not a doubtful gamer because I disregard 99% of what comes out of other people's mouths when it comes to what a game will be. I am a disappointed gamer, though. My disappointment is almost entirely from within myself and usually has nothing to do with the game itself. AOC was a fun game but I quit anyway as it lacked the community that made me enjoy other games. After three months of playing I had the fun of not being accepted into or offered a single spot in a group. It was like a really fun solo game that cost a ton of money so I left. I quit WoW for a similar reason. I got groups every day but the people I met were always the same. All business, no chatting, just stfu and finish this dungeon so we can do another please... It felt as if I was trying to make friends with a bunch of rejects at a line of slot machines. It was like they were only there to stare at the screen as they waited for a random prize. I like to have a good laugh and have fun when I play games and without other people looking for the same, games just won't cut it for me, no matter how good they are.
Since most of my real friends have moved into FPS games, that's what I've done as well. SWTOR is the only thing on the horizon that any of us are looking forward to. And if it sucks, there's always Counter-Strike to play.
Very good article.
This message was approved by boincman
I believe the corrcet quote is: "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and expect to be surprised."
As for the article, I am still looking for my next game. I gave up on DAoC after their Archery patch years ago.
AoC was hyped enough, but their combat system lacked limits, so every duel became a circle-strafing loop. Add the poorly implemented PvP system and sieges, and separate PvP and PvE gear, and I bid farewell after a year or so.
LotRO had very many things going for it, and I might return once more to Middle-earth when Rohan expansion comes. The reason I left was that combat became boring, and I usually ended up typing 1-2-3-4, and back to 1 if it has recycled.
These days I occupy my time in DDO. I really like the combat system there, but would have loved to see a different world. If Turbine implemented DDOs combat system in LotRO I would be back in a flash.
If I am to get excited about a new title, then it would need a solid background and a balanced combat system that is fun. DAoC did it with King Arthur, vikings, and Celts, why not a game with Greece vs Rome/Egypt vs Carthage?
A couple of points.
Doubtful gamers are made, not born. They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.
Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.
Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).
Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends. Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I really wish I could, what with SWG being murdered and all.
One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.
That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else. It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
If we were to find a game we enjoyed, we wouldn't complain. That's the whole problem with the last 6 years, there's been nothing worthwhile. Nothing has even come close to living up to the hype created around them because It's been the same half-baked ideas that are half-finished.
The upcoming MMOs may change this, but they may very well not either. Personally I'll wait to see how they turn out, but I'm definately not getting my hopes up. I would rather be skeptical and then pleasently surprised, than optimistic and then let down.
We? There's no "we". You speak as though it were a unified front.
It's not.
Sure, there will be "doubtfuls" that share your enjoyment of a particular game, but there will be others that won't. Contrary to popular belief, not all "doubtful gamers" are looking for exactly the same thing, or have exactly the same complaints.
So, when a game comes out that satisfies one set, but not the others - the venom and angst from the unsatisfied "doubtfuls" will continue. In that scenario, who will be "right"?
Of course, no one will be right, just as no one has really been "right" about games of the last 6 years. Even those who believe their "doubtful" opinion equates to unmitigated fact, and those that deign to speak for the whole MMO community, or at least for the community of "doubtfuls".
The statement made earlier - that many MMO players think all games should be made to please them personally - is quite accurate. The MMO community, like MMOs themselves, needs to mature.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
being a doubtful gamer is being a realist. No point in jumping on every hype train because how many times have they not met that hype? If they're any good when they come out I know I'll be the first to sing it's praises very quickly. I mean I can tell you I was completely unexcited by say WoW catalysm but having tried it and yeah I know it's good. (not my cup of tea but it's difficult to dispute it's quality)
I never intended to imply that there was any manner of consensus among doubtful gamers, well, aside from the belief that most modern MMOs suck.
The point I was trying to get across is that each doubtful gamer is unsatisfied with the current trend of MMOs. We are unhappy, we've been burned, that's why we're doubtful. That's the common link that makes doubtful gamers doubtful.
What each of us desires in an MMO is unique to our personal tastes. When I say 'we will stop complaining when we find a game we enjoy', I'm speaking of a one on one scenario per gamer. In the future if, and when, an MMO comes out to satisfy the void of an enjoyable MMO per each of our personal preferences, said individuals will no longer feel the need to complain, because they will be content in their niche of the market. The other doubtful gamers will go on and continue to be doubtful until MMOs to meet each of their personal preferences come along and give them a reason to no logner be doubtful.
You may consider doubtful gamers selfish for complaining that MMOs aren't the way "they want them to be". I believe the contrary.
My desire for an MMO with a great deal of depth, freedom, and tools to allow players to have an impact on the gameworld does not detract from you. My opinions and wants for an MMO are just that, opinions and wants. My criticisms do not opress nor take away from you, they are just an expression of the lack of a fulfilling MMO experience for my personal preference in gameplay.
We get that the industry has changed. We get that there is more money in catering to the casual market. That does not however, mean that we have to shut up and accept it. We are free to express our opinions and views, that's the whole point of forums dedicated to the discussion of MMOs. You cannot have meaningful discussions if you only talk about the positives and compltely ignore the negatives.
Personally I think that a lot of the animosity agaisnt doubtful gamers, is that many of the people who are content somehow take it personally that other people hold personal criticisms against their choice in entertainment. If you enjoy WoW or are looking forward to SWTOR, good for you. You're perfectly free to feel that way. My criticisms and critiques as to the existing or potential shortcomings of said games is my opinion. If that for some reason upsets or offends you, then I really don't know what to tell you.
That's life, people have different opinions. The notion that doubtful gamers are anymore selfish than any other MMO gamer is nonsense. All gamers want to play games that meet their preferences. The difference is that doubtful gamers have been burned by games that either no longer meet their preferences, or were promised games that would but never delivered.
I'm somewhere between Doubtful and Enthusiastic. I waver back and forth between them on a regular basis. There are times when every game on the horizon sucks and I figure I'll never bother with MMO's again, other times when they all look so good that I can't wait to play them!
Then I get into a Beta and they all suck again.
Or a new news post comes out and I'm happy all over.
Or a game I passed on lauch gives me a free trial and I'm happy again or I return to an old flame and see how things haven't changed and I see stagnation. It's a repeating cycle of doom and joy.
Then again I know I have a short attention span when it comes to games and I have to admit that for me any game that can hold my attention more than six months goes into my "all time games" section.
Current Game: Asssasins Creed 2(PS3, Gamer Tag: Happy_Hubby)
Current MMO: World of Warcraft and World of Tanks
Former Subscribed MMO: Star Trek Online, Aion, WoW, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shattered Galaxy, 10six.
Tried: Too many to list
"Why on Earth would I want to ruin what precious few days I get to experience the good parts of life by crapping all over everything that tries to give me enjoyment ?"
Good statement.
Playing:
Lotro
Have Played:
EQII,DAOC,SWG,COH,EQ,DDO, Lotro,AoC, EvE,Guild Wars,
Silkroad Online,Aion,and WoW
Favorite of all time: WoW
Waiting on:Swtor,Gw2, and Tera
I totally agree with this. Doubtful customer = smart customer. Period.
Bill,
It's called being a saavy consumer. Rather then drooling all over ourselves every time some Developer dangles a bright, flashy marketing campaign in front of our eyes.... we bother to check under the hood to see if the engine is likely to fall apart the first time some-one turns on the ignition. That's a Good Thing (tm). While it may seem like it's raining on some-ones parade, it's actualy letting the companies producing these goods that they can't get away by producing shoddy products and selling them by means of a slick marketing campaign.
I'm sure there are plenty of folks in the industry that are very talented and take true pride in the craftsmenship of the products they sell. However, there are also no shortage of guys (just as in ANY other industry) who just want to walk away with as much of your money as they can for as little effort as possible. Some of those people even run very large companies. So having cynics like us around actualy helps all gamers (IMO) and the industry as a whole....as it helps keep developers honest and lets them know that the best way to make a proffit is to produce a high quality product...not run a slick advertising campaign. The only people who should be unhappy about that, are those who make thier living from running slick advertising campaigns.
I don't understand why people cite "hype" as the reason for their doubtfulness. I don't care how much or how little hype a game has, when it is released it is either fun to play or not. Sure, the fact that nothing good has come out recently and all those games have used the internet's free advertisement capabilities to the fullest is there. The two are not connected, though. If a good game had come out, it would have the same hype system in place. The sad fact is that we are in a 6 year dry period.
The only thing that would happen without hype is that if a good game *were* released, it would fail. I doubt anyone wants that.
The idea that players have no capacity to understand, analyze or properly critique game systems because we don't have the same sort of knowledge or experience of working on games is utter bunk.
Firstly it ignores the fact that many of the people who comment here actualy DO have development or other relavent proffesional experience. Secondly hobbiests who have extensive experience using the products a company produces are EXACTLY the type of people (other then Developers themselves) to provide critical analsys of proposed mechanics.
As a hunter in real life, I don't know how to build a rifle myself...but I do have a very good understanding about many of the design properties which make one useful in the field. For instance, if some-one produces a short, feather-weight rifle in high caliber with no recoil-pad and no mounts for a sling... I'm going to question them about how they expect to deal with recoil and how they'll assist the shooter in steadying his shot...and if the designer can't provide a good answer for that, then that's a big huge red flag.
They absolutely are related...it's all about maximizing proffit and what you put your resources into....
A) Spend $5 on advertising/marketing and $2 on production/development results in $20 worth of sales.
Which option do you think the average suit at a SONY or EA style corporation will choose?
The more effective that HYPE is in producing sales....the more money they'll spend on it (and believe me they DO spend money on generating hype) and the less money they'll devote to actualy producing the product. If you can get good sales from HYPE alone...then you don't even need to bother having much of a production budget. That was the whole concept behind the Cryptic model.
So as consumers, it behooves us to try to minimize the importance/effect/impact of HYPE as much as we can....and rub it into the noses of the people running these companies that the only effective way to get sales is by producing a good quality product.
Very well said Bill. Thank you!
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall