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* After careful study, What's wrong with Vanguard *

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,043

    Originally posted by page

    People here seem to be obsessed with blaming Sigil, investors, Brad, Smedley, and Microsoft for early decisions made...Well this used to be, but thats over with.  Too much time had passed to hold a grudge.  IT'S TIME TO GET OVER THAT !

    While I'm not obsessed with it (I rarely ever think about Vanguard), I swore to myself I would never play this game again because of the launch. It was the one game that I had hoped would fail based on how they released it. And, in my eyes, it basically has failed. There is like one developer keeping it online and it gets zero upgrades.

     

    I was hopeful back then that developers would take notice of the mass exodus and stop releasing piss poor products and expecting to get paid full box price plus sub. They obviously haven't gotten the message yet. FFXIV just came out with a similar level of fail. Now there is a second game that I will never buy and hope that in the end it will fail.

     

    Hopefully games like SW:TOR, GW2 and others have taken notice. Stop giving us sh*t and expecting us to pay you for it.

  • ShojuShoju Member UncommonPosts: 776

    Originally posted by page

    The bad launch is not the problem anymore, it's really not.

    The bad launch, the ongoing bugs/technical issues and the lack of ongoing/future development are all contributing factors whose end result is a dwindling population which in turn leads to your 'lack of retention' at low levels.  Vanguard will forever be haunted by the shadows of its past, and the curious may occasionally check the game out for a short period of time, but no-one is going to seriously commit to a game that has no forseeable future development and that the majority of the gaming community expects to see the plug pulled on.  You may as well be sending your money to an exiled prince in Nigeria than wasting it on Vanguard.

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,697

    Thanks Blue am debating between EQ 2 and Vanguard but have also got to finish Last Remnant and may buy Fable III so I am eager to see what I might end up doing and I appreciate the information.

    image
  • csthaocsthao Member UncommonPosts: 1,115

    Originally posted by cheyane

    I also quit at 26 or so but for different reasons.  Had to do with too many crafters and a wrist problem. I was also in a guild but by now they have left the game.

     

    I was curious if you manage to get to 30 does the solo pick up again or it just gets bad after 20 and remains so ?

    I've played on and off again. If you're having trouble finding where to hunt, you should check out Wardship of the Sleeping Moon area. Way back when there were an abundance of people, grinding for faction was a PITA. Now they've increase faction hits and gaining faction is way easier. But Just do the repeat quests there for your faction and by the time you made level 30 you've collected almost all the pieces for your armor set.

    The bloodhowlers range from level 28-31 with 3 dots. But heres the trick, just north of them are some more bloodhowlers level 24-27 2 dots. They are for the Unicorn mount quest line, but killing them also gives you updates for your repeat quest. Kill them until you can take on the harder ones.

    It may sound easy, but it really is kinda tough, depending on what class you are playing. I loved the ranger class, and their dps is so outrageous that its so easy to level up. I was a level 26 just like you and I was soloing the boss which was level 32 and 4 dots. Was a long fight but was well worth the trouble.

    If you do play a ranger, I have some tips for you. Get someone to cast Speed of Wolf 3, and some mana regen buffs. Particularly a phoenix shaman who has all the buffs you require. Then keybind your SPLIT ARROW skill to your mouse. Now all you do is run in BIG CIRCLES, or just strafe (side step) and pull as much monsters as you can handle, just kite all day lol. I was doing this with the level 24-27 2 dot bloodhowlers and the experience was rolling by quite fast.

    One thing you have to remember is, STAY AWAY from casters. Since being low level, you have low magic resists and fighting against other range mobs while kiting is pointless, you'll get yourself killed!

    Other good classes are sorcs (awesome with a healing class duo, pull multiple mobs and AoE while they heal) and bards (same tactics as a ranger, using bow and AoE songs, dont have to rely on buffs like the ranger class). And IMO the Dreadknight (low dps, but timing scythe of doom which drains HP from mobs 10m away and transfer 100% back to you and ravaging darkness drains endurance for 6 seconds and transfer to you. you'll basically not die at all. the DK NEEDS multiple mobs to stay alive.)

    Hope this helps.

  • MardyMardy Member Posts: 2,213

    To the OP:  Nothing you've pointed out is new information.  The retention problem with Vanguard was talked about 6 months after release, and it has always been something people have brought up since then.  In fact, it was due to player feedback that they went through and touched up (as well as revamped) much of the sub-30 content.   To people that refuse to give SOE credit, all the revamps, finishing touches, tweaks, and updates were done under SOE's dime.

     

    So in other words, what you've played lately ARE the revamped versions of Vanguard.  This includes the newbie trial island, this includes many new quests and upgrades done to sub-lvl 30 zones.  What you see now is what you'll get, because SOE no longer develops Vanguard.  I highly doubt they'll go through another round of revamps, it just won't happen with zero active full time developers available for VG.

     

    In my opinion, save yourself some time and effort going through all these careful studies and revelations.  They won't change a thing with Vanguard, and nothing you're saying is anything new.  People just have grown tired of saying the same things over the past 3 years, majority of the people that used to care simply have left the game and stopped saying it.  I myself have told people countless amount of time that advertising/marketing won't change a thing.  It's not that people haven't tried Vanguard, at least those slightly interested.  It's that people have tried Vanguard, and they simply don't like what it has to offer.

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    How can you say the company running the game isn't at fault?  They have been running the game for nearly four years and you correctly diagnosed the problem in a matter of weeks.  What is the hold up on their end to address the problem?

    No disrespect intended, but this isn't exactly new information that hasn't been brought up multiple times to the devs.  It has just been left unresolved.

     

  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 755

    I went back recently and had some fun, but it didn't last. I don't know what it is, but there is something inherently off about the game. There is plenty of content (especially since I haven't done most of it), I had people to play with, I found places to go easily enough, but the game just lacked something for me.

    I thought back around the beta/release that it was all the bugs, lag, etc, but I'm starting to think it was never that for me. I've played through games that were practically unbreable to be in because of bugs and a poor system, but still enjoyed it. Currently the game runs very smoothly for me. It is a nice big world, I'm not stuck soloing, don't have to purely quest, so it should be something I want to play, but sadly I don't.

    Maybe the retention rate is low because a lot of people are finding Vanguard to be lacking that spark that holds them.

     

    Oh, on a side note, it was mentioned about noobs getting into guilds and such, being exposed to others. Well, I always liked what daoc did, and that was everyone started out in a noob guild when they started the game. They did this later on. I remember going back a couple times, starting fresh, not knowing anyone and making friends quickly and having some leveling partners. A lot of chatter, people helping with questions, it just seemed to instill some life into the game making it a place I wanted to be.

    Something like that would probably benefit Vanguard some. It would connect all the new players more and they might be more inclined to stay. Probably would feel a part of something and not so alone is a vast barren world.

  • bosmer24bosmer24 Member UncommonPosts: 116

    I agree with page,alot of people who play online games lack in the social department.Vanguard is very addicting when you get into a group.If an online game made it easier for people who are socially awkward to get together. I would say just place everyone on a server into a group as soon as they log in.Everyone!Sure they can go do their own thing,but if they want to  get more exp and better loot they have to track down someone in their level range or mentor.Experience gained would depend on the effort they put forth on the mob.Nobody would have to beg and wait for a group.You see someone around your level attacking a mob,you simply just go and help,soon as the mob is dead double the xp and loot.

    I know there might be flaws in this idea,but just a thought.

  • OkhamsRazorOkhamsRazor Member Posts: 1,047

    From what I understand from a friend thats played it . Its just that it lacks enough  people playing it . If it goes freemium model like EQ2 I'd love to give it a try again but for a sub its not worth it really .

  • It's unfortunate. Bad launch->not many playing or quitting->no more content updates->even less people playing->people hear that the population is small, thus staying away->Not much advertisment, no content updates->....

    it goes on and on. A shame too, because the classes were wonderful, the world big and immersive and the dungeons were a lot of fun. If it had a good, bigger community, it could have been a great game. But Im afraid it's beyond hope now.

  • lancelot76lancelot76 Member Posts: 119

    Originally posted by Mardy

    To the OP:  Nothing you've pointed out is new information.  The retention problem with Vanguard was talked about 6 months after release, and it has always been something people have brought up since then.  In fact, it was due to player feedback that they went through and touched up (as well as revamped) much of the sub-30 content.   To people that refuse to give SOE credit, all the revamps, finishing touches, tweaks, and updates were done under SOE's dime.

     

    So in other words, what you've played lately ARE the revamped versions of Vanguard.  This includes the newbie trial island, this includes many new quests and upgrades done to sub-lvl 30 zones.  What you see now is what you'll get, because SOE no longer develops Vanguard.  I highly doubt they'll go through another round of revamps, it just won't happen with zero active full time developers available for VG.

     

    In my opinion, save yourself some time and effort going through all these careful studies and revelations.  They won't change a thing with Vanguard, and nothing you're saying is anything new.  People just have grown tired of saying the same things over the past 3 years, majority of the people that used to care simply have left the game and stopped saying it.  I myself have told people countless amount of time that advertising/marketing won't change a thing.  It's not that people haven't tried Vanguard, at least those slightly interested.  It's that people have tried Vanguard, and they simply don't like what it has to offer.

    Unfortunately Mardy is right, no new information here. I'm not sure I agree entirely with "not liking what it has to offer." Many new and veteran players alike often will report (via forum posts etc.) that they truly enjoy the world and gameplay. But I'm just splitting hairs here, no flaming intended. :)

    What I do agree with is much worse: there are no full time developers and Vanguard has no forseeable future. SOE cannot admit publicly that there is no roadmap etc. but their actions have spoken very loudly since last December: silence. They have nothing to say on the VG forums because there IS nothing to say.

    The last game update was in...what? January? And no news about anything since then. So I would say, to quote Kirk talking about Klingons: "Let them die." For the guilds and groups that play and love it: may they enjoy VG for the rest of its rapidly decreasing life. The OP honestly doesn't need to go to such lengths to analyze VG. Nothing anyone does outside of SOE now is going to matter. Elvis has left the building & he's not coming back. It's cooked and the oven timer is ringing. And whatever other phrase you can think of. :)

    I will admit I enjoyed my brief time in VG. But for anyone new, I tell them to try it if they want to, but if they are looking for something that isn't zombified and may be dead within a year, they might want to hold off and try something else launching next year. Some VG players and guilds are going in a mass exodus to Rift and other games. I doubt they really want to leave...but the state of the game doesn't give them much choice.

    Anyway, just a couple coppers' worth of opinion.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,180

    Originally posted by lancelot76

    Originally posted by Mardy

    To the OP:  Nothing you've pointed out is new information.  The retention problem with Vanguard was talked about 6 months after release, and it has always been something people have brought up since then.  In fact, it was due to player feedback that they went through and touched up (as well as revamped) much of the sub-30 content.   To people that refuse to give SOE credit, all the revamps, finishing touches, tweaks, and updates were done under SOE's dime.

     

    So in other words, what you've played lately ARE the revamped versions of Vanguard.  This includes the newbie trial island, this includes many new quests and upgrades done to sub-lvl 30 zones.  What you see now is what you'll get, because SOE no longer develops Vanguard.  I highly doubt they'll go through another round of revamps, it just won't happen with zero active full time developers available for VG.

     

    In my opinion, save yourself some time and effort going through all these careful studies and revelations.  They won't change a thing with Vanguard, and nothing you're saying is anything new.  People just have grown tired of saying the same things over the past 3 years, majority of the people that used to care simply have left the game and stopped saying it.  I myself have told people countless amount of time that advertising/marketing won't change a thing.  It's not that people haven't tried Vanguard, at least those slightly interested.  It's that people have tried Vanguard, and they simply don't like what it has to offer.

    Unfortunately Mardy is right, no new information here. I'm not sure I agree entirely with "not liking what it has to offer." Many new and veteran players alike often will report (via forum posts etc.) that they truly enjoy the world and gameplay. But I'm just splitting hairs here, no flaming intended. :)

    What I do agree with is much worse: there are no full time developers and Vanguard has no forseeable future. SOE cannot admit publicly that there is no roadmap etc. but their actions have spoken very loudly since last December: silence. They have nothing to say on the VG forums because there IS nothing to say.

    The last game update was in...what? January? And no news about anything since then. So I would say, to quote Kirk talking about Klingons: "Let them die." For the guilds and groups that play and love it: may they enjoy VG for the rest of its rapidly decreasing life. The OP honestly doesn't need to go to such lengths to analyze VG. Nothing anyone does outside of SOE now is going to matter. Elvis has left the building & he's not coming back. It's cooked and the oven timer is ringing. And whatever other phrase you can think of. :)

    I will admit I enjoyed my brief time in VG. But for anyone new, I tell them to try it if they want to, but if they are looking for something that isn't zombified and may be dead within a year, they might want to hold off and try something else launching next year. Some VG players and guilds are going in a mass exodus to Rift and other games. I doubt they really want to leave...but the state of the game doesn't give them much choice.

    Anyway, just a couple coppers' worth of opinion.

     For Mardy, and Lancelot76

    At first sight I was thinking of defending my post here and stand my ground.  First I would like to say that my careful study is 100 % correct.  All of it is true.

    I've spent many hours OFF the trial Island hanging around 11-20.  For the most part I know most everyone, as it does not take much with ruffly 30 or so players in this level area.  I know who are vets and who is new.  Of the new players I find that they are really enjoying Vanguard.   But because it's a DUO game, and with no help from SOE with the social structure the new players don't last.  This a fact.  NO ONE STAYS, NO ONE !

     

     I guess as much as I'm trying to stick up for Vanguard, and it has so much to offer, I guess I have to agree with Lancelot76, and Marty.............SOE knows as well as I do that people are subscribing, and quiting.  I'm doing it by study in game, and SOE is looking at their accounting figures in black and white ( Same thing ).

    Their is no doubt that SOE is on purpose destroying Vanguard.  They are not lifting a finger even knowing that they are getting 3 or 4 subscriptions a day.  You can prove this too.  It's easy just ask 11's if their new or Veteran alternates. Lots are new.   I know I ask them !....That's how detailed my study is....Call me crazy, but this is what I do !

    I've posted on the Vanguard forums about my study, argued it for about a week, ( It was a red hot topic ) and yet not one intervention from the dev's, SOE does not care about Vanguard at all !

    I have one character in the High 20's. I'm still successfully using my method to find groups.  I can safely say that their is so much deep rich content, Lore, dungeons, keeps, quest, scenery, along with an auction house that is second to none, and deep crafting, and diplomacy ( if you like it ).  I'm sure this content last all the way to max level. Yet SOE seems as if they are trying to shut it down, end of program...............I HATE SOE !

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,914

    Originally posted by page

    Their is no doubt that SOE is on purpose destroying Vanguard.  They are not lifting a finger even knowing that they are getting 3 or 4 subscriptions a day.  You can prove this too.  It's easy just ask 11's if their new or Veteran alternates. Lots are new.   I know I ask them !....That's how detailed my study is....Call me crazy, but this is what I do !

    I've posted on the Vanguard forums about my study, argued it for about a week, ( It was a red hot topic ) and yet not one intervention from the dev's, SOE does not care about Vanguard at all !

     

    Sony seems to always think like a business. This in and of itself is not bad because a business that thinks with only their "heart" might not go very far.

    Still, they always seem like they are peddling "wares" as opposed to something that needs to be nurtured and that interfaces with their customers on more than a "one time purchase" experience.

    They originally bought these games (Vanguard, Matrix, etc) to bolster their station pass. In essence they thought they were getting nearly finished games that they could add some work to and get a robust one stop gaming experience.

    What they really didn't work through is that these games require their developers to constantly improve and expand and essentially convince their customers that they are dedicated to expanding the play experience far into the future.

    Sony isn't the only company that fails in this. I have often felt that NC Soft also shares a somewhat lackluster imagination when it comes to expanding and maintaining their games.

    In any case, they will keep Vanguard going as long as it bolsters their station pass. Afterwards it will be dropped.




  • sephersepher Member Posts: 3,561

    The time to ask "what's wrong with Vanguard" was back in beta and the first few months of launch when "go back to WoW" was all the craze towards any criticizing voice of Vanguard design decisions. Now that everyone went back to WoW and Vanguard is on life support, it's much too late to ponder that, 'specially when largely Vanguard's loudest voices are STILL blaming SOE, Microsoft, Brad, the moon and kitchen sink before Vanguard itself is ever criticized.

    You folks have been telling SOE that Vanguard is perfect, best game out there, best game ever for years. What's there to work on or change?  

  • DerWotanDerWotan Member Posts: 1,012

    Vanguards biggest problem has been Beta 3 + introduction of SoE. Everyone knew the  Everquest 1 and Verant story yet Brad made the same mistake again. Just compare beta 3 with the previous Betas it was mindshattering for me. A great outstanding combatsystem became revamped, introducing of altars and oh of course mass quits cause of the new publisher.

    We did pray for a later release, complained about the bugs and advertised them not to release the game in this state, but well  Soe wanted the game to fail because it was a competitor to Everequest 2 and it showed. After they took over Sigil their so called [object Window]efforts[object Window] resulted in a constantly dumbing down of the game. The last bunch of former Everquest 1 players left, because the game turned into something that was so far from the Vision.

    @sepher well thats your own problem if you complain about things like no instances, no handholding then don[object Window]t be surprised if gamers are telling you to go back to WoW, cause its the epidome of easy. Hence Vanguard failed because they dumbed it down during beta. 

    To sum it up: unstable release + soe killed the game.

    [object Window]

    Which in my mind is a shame because I thought it would become the home for the oldschool Everquest 1 player.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • randomtrandomt Member UncommonPosts: 1,219

    Ahh I recall when this released, and there were tons and tons of people all about the same level doing their thing.. Despite some of the issues people had (mostly performance if I recall), it was a great title, and some fun pvp (I played on one of the faction pvp server)

    Sad to see it not going anywhere.. ah well.

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  • Deckard729Deckard729 Member Posts: 30

      Vanguard is really a great game that unfortunately will not ever see the light of day since there really isn't much developer support for it anymore.  SOE has other money makers at the moment and has several more releases coming out in the next year, so I highly doubt VG will ever get the attention it truly deserves.

  • disownationdisownation Member UncommonPosts: 243

    Here's the thing: if you are a solo introvert who doesn't even converse or strike up a conversation with people around you or in group, you probably won't get very far in Vanguard. I'm fairly outgoing and will be the first to initiate conversation with a complete stranger. The end result is always the same: I make alot of friends to group and have fun with.

     

    Anyway, there's nothing really wrong with Vanguard (aside that it is no longer given development support). Its quite easy to find people/friends to group up with. Actually in VG, there are a whole lot more people playing low levels than high levels (because there is nothing really to do at end game). So people level slow there - or have many low level alts to enjoy the content.

     

    All you have to do is turn to the guy in your area and say: "Hey, how's it going? You want to group up and kill some baddies together?"

    99% of the time they'll say: "Sure thing."

  • bosmer24bosmer24 Member UncommonPosts: 116

    I think i've already suggested this,but with a game like vanguard the social aspect is very important.For some of us though,for whatever reason a lot of us are lone wolves and hate the idea of bothering other players.Even though it goes against the very idea of multiplayer games(being anti social).

    My suggestion,which i am sure i haven't thought out to well,and i am sure i will be called WOW noob or king retard is:

     

      Get rid of guilds all together.Instead place every player in one single huge group as soon as they hit "enter world"

      You then automatically have a community to converse with,and you're already in a group so no need for a socially awkward person to feel like they have to beg for a group.Ofcourse, if the player wants to go do their own solo thing they can.But if they see another player around the same level they can go and beat on the same mob and both get slightly better reward without a single word said between them.

    Hopefully this will lead to the said players talking to eachother,exchanging quests and other such goals.Party experience will be given only if the players are in the same area and beating on the same mob.A player a world away won't get anything ofcourse.

    Since this is a PVE game and all there should be no problem.Vanguard had mentoring to so this idea along with mentoring would be awesome.Nobody should have to play alone if they do not want to.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,180

     

    Originally posted by bosmer24

    I think i've already suggested this,but with a game like vanguard the social aspect is very important.For some of us though,for whatever reason a lot of us are lone wolves and hate the idea of bothering other players.Even though it goes against the very idea of multiplayer games(being anti social).

    My suggestion,which i am sure i haven't thought out to well,and i am sure i will be called WOW noob or king retard is:

     

      Get rid of guilds all together.Instead place every player in one single huge group as soon as they hit "enter world"

      You then automatically have a community to converse with,and you're already in a group so no need for a socially awkward person to feel like they have to beg for a group.Ofcourse, if the player wants to go do their own solo thing they can.But if they see another player around the same level they can go and beat on the same mob and both get slightly better reward without a single word said between them.

    Hopefully this will lead to the said players talking to eachother,exchanging quests and other such goals.Party experience will be given only if the players are in the same area and beating on the same mob.A player a world away won't get anything ofcourse.

    Since this is a PVE game and all there should be no problem.Vanguard had mentoring to so this idea along with mentoring would be awesome.Nobody should have to play alone if they do not want to.

     This would be somewhat of a good idea Bosmer24.  However getting rid of guilds all together would piss off the veteran players.

    I find that SOE does not care about retention of new players ( they suck ). SOE seems to like to keep it's small group of Vets just to keep there mmo's alive, then suck in new players for a month or two. They seem to be happy with this method for some reason. Maybe to cut back on servers and bandwidth I'm not sure. So they will never do away with the guild system.

    A good alternative would be to reset the Guild's. 

    With approx 500 players online at any given time and 40 guilds, there is a problem.  My suggestion would be to give the guild masters a token to restart a guild for free, then turn off all existing guilds, and make them expensive for any new guilds to start. I would guess that less than half the guilds would come back on line.

    BUT SOE is not looking for suggestions.....SOE does not care about you, me or anyone else ! 

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,380

    I think the answer is ...do what DAOC does. Everyone is placed in a noobie guild at creation. They remain connected to all noobies until the leave to join another guild.In that way all are connected..until they choose to make new connections.some Vet Players might want to take this matter in their own hands and create a guild for all noobies to join if VG does not help.The guild is strictly for new characters...who can stay as long as they wish ..or transition to other guilds.This way you ask nothing of Sony...just DO IT.The noobie guild can be a great place for guilds to recruit as well.

     

    BTW..on the issue of "life support".I currently have returned to DAOC(it's  temporary I think) and it's in the same shape.Broken web site..no developers etc etc.The answer is...just play where you have fun until someone turns the lights out or you want a change.

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