Star Wars Galaxies: Slashdot Seeks CU Answers

Dana · April 2005

SlashDot has posted a call for questions in response to the Combat Upgrade recently released in Star Wars Galaxies. As you know, there has been a lot of uproar and turmoil surrounding it.

Since last week my inbox and submissions bin has been overflowing with complaints and rants about the Combat Upgrade put into Star Wars Galaxies last week. Players are speaking out all over the internet, and the media is responding. If you've had first hand interactions with the combat upgrade (either positive or negative) please leave a comment below describing your experiences with the changes, and pass on word of this thread to all the players you can. Think of this as a call for interview questions, because I'm going to formulate queries as best I can and see what sort of information I can get from the folks that I know at Sony Online. Here's your chance to be heard, folks. Use it well.

Click here for the original article...

Also, we at MMORPG.com have sent a Q&A on this subject to the folks at SWG, partly with your help. Look for it here soon!

mikalar · April 2005

I started playing SWG game back in beta and so its been over 2 years for me. I also happen to be a middle aged software engineer with two teenage sons who also play SWG. Between us we have 5 accounts and as of 4/28 3 of them have been canceled.

We've played through all the bugs and nerfs and server downtimes and resets and roll backs and was always positive regardless of the issues and tried to maintain that attitude of the game forums and in game.

We attended Fan Fest last year and get some great positive feed back from the developers in attendance who seemed very excited about the game. I was encouraged by their spirit.

I saw a lot of friends leave particularly this past December when EQ2 and WoW were released and though down, remained faithful. Spirits again were lifted when it was announced that new developers were being added and more content was coming out. The changes in the beginning of the year were most encouraging.

Then came news of the long awaited Combat Upgrade. Great we thought, no more "uber" players running around single handedly taking out large groups of fighters. There would be balance and a reason to PvP again and the GCW would breath new life.

But then it hit test center after much secrecy and the first thing saw was the UI and got sick to my stomach and it went down hill from there.

They took away all reason to have an armorsmith (no protection when harvesting resources, everything collected for the last year plus was no longer any good, factory times to make segments is too long, and bottom line - no one needs the armor any more). First canceled account.

My doctor also became of little use. No more crafting of medecines, no need for buffs, and ittle need for cures. second canceled account.

OK so I still have my original account Jedi Padawan and Master Smuggler alt and I even get free respecs til I get what I like. Well to make a long story short, I have not been able to gain one siingle point of XP on my Jedi since Wednesday, the light saber does less damage than most other weapons, and I can't use my anti decay kit (veteran award - for loyalty - hmmm) on it like I could before the CU to protect it and its contents.

I did respec my alt from Master Smuggler / TKM to Master Smuggler and MBH which is my only playable character at the moment. But it too is canceled because of the Jedi issues.

Bottom line - we all recognized a need to balance the game and that is what we thought we were gonna get. No one player template should be able to dominate the toughest NPCs in the game or other players. Medic buffs were too powerful and armor stop too much damage. DOT weapons needed to go along with some other balance issues. But the CU went well beyond that and created an entirely new game, one that does not feel at all like the Star Wars Galaxies we have all come to know and love.

P.S. If I would somehow win the give away copy of SWG the total experience - please burn it!

Bedsheet · April 2005

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=cudiscussiontemp&message.id=25971

The Link above pretty much sums it all up. Personally aside from the problems listed in the link above I love the CU. Almost every duel i've participated in or watched was a close fight, I saw very little slaughter for one side or the other. Now t his may change as people learn how to play it but for now i'm having much more fun than every before. I attempted to solo a bit today with limited sucess it seems a lot of mobs are social. Find a set that are not social grab a mission for them then go to town.

Also I have yet to find the new Instant Stims anywhere so I am fighting this stuff without any heals what so ever. The CU is not without problems but for almost everyone I know that has given it a chance has started to like it.

Anyhow hope this all makes sense. I beleive the CU is better for the game overall including the current problems, which I still beleive will be adressed. Give them more than 48 hours to fix all there is to be fixed.

Bedsheet · April 2005

I think that this should be here, as it bears on the subject of this forum.

Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.

I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.

There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.

The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.

Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.

This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.

Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.

1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.

The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.

The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.

Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.

Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.

This is the result of the 'level' system.

Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.

This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.

The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.

A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.

The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.

This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.

2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.

The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?

XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.

It was never an issue at all.

However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.

In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.

The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.

It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.

It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.

It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.

The reason why it was is the kicker.

3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.

This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.

So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.

This is a cheat.

The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.

It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.

XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.

Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.

Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*

*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)

So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"

Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.

Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.

You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid.
You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.

These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.

Quick. Easy. Fast.

No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.

Bam. Done.

Quick. Easy. Fast.

And WORTHLESS.

That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.

Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor

You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.

And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.

You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.

It takes time which they claim they don't have.

The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.

It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.

Without it, the CU would work.

With it, SWG is dead.

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Repub Arnaz
~~MDE/MWS/MArtisan~~
Lovely Goontown, Naboo
I live in Goontown. I forgot where my house is.

WTB - Pantaloons

P.S. Just in Case this is listed in a Temporary forum. I hope I have enough credit to the original author. It was not me and this belongs with the post above.

Peyote · April 2005

^^Bump --Im also downloading DoAC the 14-day trial..until i figure out what to play next...Guild Wars or something else...

The only thing i still like about SWG is the space game. JTL is still fun to play --

Just my thoughts

majoch · April 2005

I guess I am biased heavely towards the old SWG. Like a couple other posters stated in the SWG forums I just recently returned from a long hiatus after buying JTL and deciding to give this another go. I think I got maybe 5 weeks of the original SWG in before CU went live and I truly enjoyed those 5 weeks.

Like some I have cancelled my accounts and moved on to MxO and Guild Wars ( great game IMO). I even reactivated my EQ2 account however, that game feels so stale now so will not last the 1 month re-sub ( maybe it has something to do with the same guy that headed the CU also dramatically changed the release version of EQ2 to a point it isn't all that fun).

What did it for me and the CU as I did give it several tries was getting owned by a group of Chunkers who were several levels below me. It wasn't even a contest. They killed my pro-bot with 3400 HAM, then my toned down 3300 HAM Sludge Panther, and then me. It just boils down to this not being the same game I was more than willing to part with $15 a month for again. I paid my monthly fee for a game that would let me solo when I wanted, have fun with my PA fellows, craft away making droids for anyone who wanted them as I didn't charge a dime, cruise around with my BE trying to get that last sampling box ETC.

I did sign in one more time to say my goodbyes but sadly only one person was logged in when I usually see 6-8 on a slow day, and he just happens to be the one who spends his time in space so is somewhat untouched by the CU changes.

BTW, that was an excellent post you pasted Bedsheet.

Clattuc · April 2005

This is a very important thread. I've been bitterly disappointed by the inattention that the gaming press has given to the CU debacle - I figured that writers are more interested in the newer games, and SWG is just on autopilot (regurgitated press releases etc).

You could write a short book (and somebody should, for the benefit of the industry) on how the Combat Rebalance/Revamp/Upgrade swam along through SOE/Verant's management structure for more than a year, morphing in the process from a needed postrelease 'tweak' to a kitchen-sink rewrite of core systems and a player community trainwreck.

The bottom line is that for 1/2 to 2/3 of the core active players, SWG ended last week. The new game (and it is a new game) looks like exactly the kind of MMORPG that those players rejected in favor of the cooler, smarter SWG systems, UI and gameworld.

It's not that the old game was perfect - it had as many problems as any game of its complexity could be expected to have. Certain professions were deemed 'unplayable' in the sense that if you chose that skill set, you didn't advance as smoothly, prevail at PvP as consistently, or wield the cool tools that other, more 'uber' professions boasted. Which is why the CU was so eagerly awaited. Something to help smugglers, for example, or Creature Handlers. There were a number of decent, modest suggestions made by players and their Correspondent representatives. All out the window.

What we have instead is a classic example of "Second System Syndrome," as someone in the SWG Forums astutely pointed out a while ago (naturally the SOE control freaks seem to have deleted it). Team after team is given its chance to "rethink" self-diagnosed problems and rewrite key modules, so that the cumulative effect is (a) overwhelming, (b) confusing, and (c) inevitably more problem- and bug-ridden than the "First System" it replaces.

The only other thing I'll point out is that in order for an organization to hoodwink itself into this kind of mess, it's necessary to have a slogan or buzzword that everybody can focus on. And they have a lulu: "COMPELLING." If you read the dribs and drabs of documentation, apologia, rhodomontade and piffle that have been releasd w/r/t the CU, you'll see it again and again. "COMPELLING content." "Making the game more COMPELLING." Of course that's totally subjective and entirely immune to MMORPGological analysis, which is its genius. Replace a sane, cool item or command with some new tutti-frutti icon out of Dora the Explorer that activates a Tinkerbell animation and an underlying game move stolen from the medieval competition? That's COMPELLING.

They are going to hedge, and tweak, and rollback, and stonewall, and wait for new players to replace the supposedly curmudgeonly oldsters who had the temerity to pay their salaries for the last two years, but they cannot undo the damage they have done to the premier SF title in the industry. I only hope that the TREK team (among others) is watching.

Puoltry · April 2005

SWG is and has continued to be the "bastard child" of SOE's lineup of online games.

From the time launch date was announced and beta testers came out after the nda was lifted screaming that it needed more work to the this CU fiasco.Its amazing how they run that game with an iron fist,deleting postings and banning players for getting tips on duplicated credits.

From day 1 they have taken a much beloved "universe" and continually made it something only SOE could really want it to be.The new expansion is going to be ridiculous as well putting in things from the current movie that predate the timeline that SWG takes place in just proves that they look at the game as a money making venture.

Nothing wrong with that though.It is supposed to make money.

Im not going to make the statement that i wont play any SOE games because im playing eq2 atm and actually enjoying it.

I remember when people were calling SWG EQ in space.The fans defended the games developers by saying that these were completly different people and a different team altogether.

Well i couldnt agree more this sure is a different set of devs.Apparently the teams at EQ and EQ2 and even Planetside know how to develop and run a game.

Clattuc · April 2005

The sad irony is that Raph Koster left two legacies: the iron fist, and brilliant game design.

Guess which one the new team has kept.

losdog57 · May 2005

An Empire Divided is such a fitting tile for this game. I have been playing SWG even since its release. I have enjoyed it thoroughly and weathered every upgrade, nerf, and patch that has come out. I have been faithful to this game because this game immersed me into the Star Wars Galaxy. I have been playing the new CU for about 4 days and I have giving up my quest to become a jedi because of the low experience given for most of the mobs. Also i have heard from several Jedi in the game that their grind for experience is as difficult as Jabbas squeezing a Death Star out of his nose.

I can understand if SOE wants to improve the game for the community but what i didn't understand is why they would risk losing so many SWG accounts (assuming at least 8000) on a combat upgrade. Then i realized that with the upcoming movie coming out it will bring in at least 8k new members maybe more and most of the old members will complain but still stay with the game and adapt to it. With the original SWG combat system, SOE had an average game that stayed below the top 7 highest ranked MMORPG's. While EQ2 soars up to........well number 7. So the bottom line is, SOE is a business and their real concern is keeping their jobs and not the disgruntled ramblings of a few thousand SWG players. If you know that going into it you'll be less likely to get your feelings hurt.

P.S. i'll probably keep my SWG account for awhile until Startrek online comes out Woo Whoo!!

alocer · May 2005

The Combat Upgrade:

I am an avid fighter against this non-original garbage SOE has force on SWG Players. I cannot beleive that a company with such a loyal (formerly) base could go and do this.

The Combat Upgrade was not that, it was a way for SOE to Centralize their EQ2 engine as the centerprice of scripting. The theory was that if they could convince SWG players the did actually do an upgrade and not just reskin EQ2, they could sell more station passes and double profit, as well as be able to swap development teams back and forth.

Over all it is a sad day in SWG history, and as the movie says :

A LONG TIME AGO .... that was when SWG was great, I just hope they try and bring it back, by fixing the old engine a bit, and adding a bit more content ....

poizenviper · May 2005

im another person who has played swg for the better part of two year. what they did to the game was terrible. from what i have read ( negative here ) is the truth.

soe will try to say its a small part of their player base, that will be a lie they have ignored the player base to the point that its almost funny. i would not buy another of their products for anything.

daz2k5 · May 2005

I'm very dissapointed, as a non master character i have not been able to get on in the game at all. Its a joke. Whoever pushed for this at SOE should be sacked and then shot. Even a gradual implementation would have been a better idea. The game pre-cu wasnt bad in fact it was a million times better than now. people will eventually unbalance this too, its the way of life, but i feel like iv been punished for something i never got involved in. PLEASE put it back.

Tytan_ · May 2005

Thanks for taking an interest.

The combat REVAMP that was supposed to take place a year ago, was never supposed to turn the game in to everquest. I liked the skill based system before, even though it was imbalanced. Now everyone in my guild is slowly migrating to master bounty hunter/other ranged prof/ pistoleer.

They took away every hint of uniqueness in the game by introducing things that belong in fantasy level based games. Roots, snares, particle effects that look like magic, healers that require no tool to heal or rez, walk around with a magic wand curing anyone around, while I stare at the rediculous effects for indimidate( a pair of white glowing men, rotating around the person intimidated). It's horrible, and nothing about it says starwars.

wookielegend · May 2005

I have been playing Star Wars Galaxies for about 2 years (End of june 2003) and I have always rolled with the punches of anything they threw at me. I can no longer do taht with the Combat Downgrade. Fighting experiance fighting alone is slow to almost non-existant. You can get decent fighting experiance in a group. If you have a Jedi, and you fight in a group, you gain "visability" which basically means Bounty Hunters can get a mission with you as the target that pays extremely well. If a Jedi dies, he loses 200K Jedi experiance.

Crafters have been bent over.

a pure crafter has a 1 combat rating. When figuring out damage there is a multiplier if the difference is too large. Not a problem for an established character because they can group with their friends and the combat rating for defense is based on the highest level of anyone in the group. But if a newbie player decides to start out as a crafter, they need to find resources by hand which means going out into the world with all the beasties that can incapacitate you with one hit. 20:1 odds on them being discouraged and quitting.

They have messed around with the components for armorsmith, so armorsmiths that used to be able to make top notch armor with the ingredients they had now find themselves unable to make some pieces of armor because of the new requirements, and the value of the ingredients they had collected over almost 2 years has been reduced.

Personal experiance:

I had a doctor/bio-engineer. I had all the components to make really good medicines (one collects these things when playing for almost 2 years). 28 units of avian meat, 28 units of reactive gas, and 6 components (3 types) (which I had decent ingredients for those as well). With those I could triple anyone's stats in the game (except for a Wookie with full max health).

Now the buffs have been condensed so instead of 6, you need 2. They are not as powerful. They require 200 units of avian meat and 300 units of reactive gas and 21 components (3 types) which are completely different that the ones I had ingredients for. These buffs give a 10% bonus to health and health regeneration, and 10% to action regeneration.

A Stimpack was a medicine to give instant health and action damage recovery. If you had experimented right, you could make it so a Medic with pharmacology 4 could use a Stim D. Doctor was the next step after medic in medicine use so they could use a Stim E. Now a Master Doctor cannot sue a Stim D, but a master in combat can.

So now I have to work 3 times as hard for only 5% of the payoff

Any medicine that was made before the combat upgrade was changed for the combat upgrade and were made bland and weak. The stim D's I had that were 870 efficeincy were turned into Stim Ds with 400 efficeincy. the Stim Ds that were in the 600's somewhere were also turned into 400. So much ofr using the better parts on the 875. I guess they were just wasted.

... I think I'm dropping doctor.

Entertainers have been bent over.
before an entertainor had to either be in a group with you or direct their preformance towards you for you to get a mind buff. This was a nice checks and balances way for them to only buff who tipped them. Now anyone who watches or listens to them gets the buff whether they are tipped or not. Newbie netertainers will not make any money.

Marauder_x · May 2005

The last month has been painfull for myself and many other dedicated SWG players, the CU had high potential and I think we all hoped for much more from it...I still remember the day it hit the TC's, ha! as if it were even more then a month ago! That's right, SOE rushed this "Upgrade" out of development and into the TC's for a VERY short period of time and then rushed it into live when it was no where near being ready..

Now I've been playing SWG since Sept '04 and while thats not as long as many of the people here it doesnt mean that I wasnt very attached to the game, simply means I had much less time to enjoy it before the CU hacked my favorite game into a clone of another game (wont mention any names but I'm sure those reading this are smart enough to figure it out).

As I mentioned I helped test the CU from early April and it would appear that mine and nearly everyone elses efforts and time spent in testing and reporting bugs was for absolutely nothing!...I COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYING THE GOOD VERSION ALL THAT TIME! But I figured I would try and help SOE work through this..Now, anyone who has played on SWG for any reasonable amount of time knows that the Customer Service portion of the game has become a joke but with this CU release it has become painfully obvious as to the extremes they will go to.

The CU hit live a few days ago and the SWG forums have been flooded with complaints from gamers (myself included)..AS IF it werent enough that SOE rushed the CU out of development, through testing and into live but now they effectively continue their campaign to infuriate the upset gamers and drive SWG into the ground for good by deleting, yes THEY DELETED VALID THREADS on their own forums, many of the threads were carefully written in non-flaming manner as to aviod being deleted and in the end it was all in vain as SOE Censored all the anti-CU posts that they could, though their attempts soon were in vain as they couldnt delete our threads as fast as we could re-make them!

SOE never worked with the gamers on the CU, they did what they wanted to do from day one! They rushed this out of development,into testing and right out into live before you could bat an eye and they began to publically ignore outraged SWG loyalists!

Sony Online Entertainment has ruined my all time favorite game, the game I loved for seven months and many, many more have loved for so much longer..For this atrocity that is the "Combat Upgrade" and the entire process in which produced it I believe SOE deserves EVERY single word of bad press they get and MORE!..I WILL NEVER purchase another product of ANY kind that has ANYTHING to do with Sony..

..

..

..The best seven months of gaming in my life! ROCK ON GUYS! Heres to what once was!

Sight_______ · May 2005

Well I created an account simply to relay this post that deserves to be read by all. This post among many others, says what all us SWG members want to say. Please take some time and read it. Thank you.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=cudiscussiontemp&message.id=26461

bigpala · May 2005

I have played swg for 2 years, I enjoyed the game for the crafting challenges not the combat, It took me 32 professions to open my jedi slot since SOE kept changing the rules for opening the Jedi slot. Now my 2 years of stockpiled resources have been greatly nullified, Doctors don't need my stimpacks or enhance packs and the ones made pre CU were converted to items that are mediocre in power. My Chef now has to relearn it's profession as the food and drinks now do not do what they did 4 days ago. The schmatics across the board Armorsmith, weaponsmith, Doctor, have been changed so much that most crafters are leaving the game. My Master Creature Handler will need almost all new pets because his the game says his bio engineered pets are out of balance and when I converted one it became level 221 it had the same stats as my natural level 50 rancor. Bio engineer pet making has always been one of the most challenging crafting professions, but now the dna of the creatures is so out of balance making usuable creatures is going to take weeks to months to refigure out. gaining xp is nearly impossible and the developers are pushing people to group to gain xp which for Jedi will get them on the bounty hunter boards and incessently hunted by as many as 5 bounty hunters. The game is broken in so many ways. So my recomendation is don't bother.

esclavo · May 2005

I could go through and list all the things that I dislike about the combat upgrade, but I think there are others that can do that much better than me. The biggest disappointment to me, especially during the "testing" part of the combat upgrade, has been the customer service.

I am a small business owner and have also been an educator for a company before, so I'd like to think I know a little bit about customer service.

I've dealt with SoE's CS for about 6 years, across two games. It's always been quite heavy handed, dare I say, almost nazi like in the way they run the propaganda machine and censor those that are disgruntled. During the testing for the CU this special kind of CS was in even more full force than I had ever seen. People were censored, banned and ignored for trying to share their opinions and concerns.

At the HoC and in other public notes displayed by SoE, it was made to seem that everyone loved the CU and that there were only a few very disgruntled folks that were simply afraid of change and needed to "get used to the new system".

I, for one, am not afraid of change. I welcomed the changes being brought about until the day I logged onto the test center to find that the game now looked like some form of EQ2 mixed with a little WoW and a splash of SWG. This is not to mention the bugs... and I mean more bugs than any beta should have.

I faithfully tested this inferior product along with many others, who had input on a daily basis for the developers. Most all of which was ignored. Over about 3 weeks, they put in some minor tweaks and adjustments, but not nearly enough and very little that was asked for... and then they pushed it live before it was ready.

Now we are here.... kicking and screaming.. wondering what happened to the game we loved for almost 2 years. We were ignored because, in SoE's eyes, an average of 80% negative response in polls, means the customers love it. The customer relations director, Tiggs, figures that the msg boards and polls conducted from there are meaningless (yes, she said that in so many words), because it's just a small portion of the player base that uses the msg board. Well, I don't know about you, but if I had over 1,000 people voting that they hated my product/service on a daily basis... I wouldn't care where the poll was taken, I'd want to find out why they are bothered and fix the issue.

I'm getting a bit long winded, so I am sorry.

Basically, SoE has done it again. They ignored their customers, put out a half finished product, and their paying customers will again, be beta testing, in live, their unfinished product. There are bugs that have been in the game since first day of launch, now there are hundreds more bugs and inbalances that have been added. Welcome to another 2 years of beta testing in SWG.

boromir700 · May 2005

I have been playing for a year and SWG had some great boosts for me and ultimate fun....but now everything is demoloshing, my friends are leaving and the game is getting very shitty, BRING BACK THE SWG WE ALL LOVED!

Linna · May 2005

I am female, 37 years old, have been playing Star Wars Galaxies since the beginning of December 2003, and enjoyed my time in that game enough that I wound up with 5 accounts. I have just cancelled these accounts, one of them a (baby) jedi. There are so many things wrong with the Combat Upgrade, on so many levels, it's incredible that they pushed it through. The CU was released prematurely. SOE admitted in a letter to the community that it would go live with MAJOR bugs still in it, which would take months to iron out. Allready we have suffered rollbacks of up to 10 days. People are quitting by the hundreds.
Despite what some people are claiming, the people who dislike the CU are not a 'vocal minoriy'. I lead a large guild on my home server, Bloodfin, and I have been saying farewell all week. People are extremely upset, because basically everything we worked for (for some players since beta) is being destroyed. The professions we loved to play, have been altered beyond recognition. Non-combat professions have been marginalised, resource requirements for crafters have (often dramatically) changed, weapons and armor changed beyond recognition.
And the worst thing of all, is that the many thousands of post expressing concern or criticism about the CU, keep disappearing. People are getting banned from the forums for speaking out, our community profession representatives (the Correspondents) get fired when they dare speak against the CU. I signed the petition on www.swgpetition.com. I tested for many hours on testcenter, and I did not like what I saw. I took the exit poll, filled in the forum poll each day (only one vote possible per account, by the way, so no way to cheat with the 75%/80% saying they absolutely detested the CU). And STILL SOE claims we are all happy and that we are enjoying the CU. It simply is not true. I will repost here a brief (and incomplete) summary of problems people have expressed with the CU, and I hope it will give you some clarity on the matter.
1) the loss of system messages for xp and other events make it harder to gauge what you are doing
2) the effects added to special moves, mounting bikes etc. are distracting to the point of causing some people nausea and/or headaches and would fit better in a fantasy game then in SWG
3) Skill enhancing tapes are mostly rendered useless, meaning a lot of people's investments are lost
4) The removal of the combat queue, added to the 'warm up/cool down' system implemented, makes combat extremely unclear. You have to keep watching your toolbar to see when you can do something again, a complete immersion breaker, that further adds to the tremendous slowdown combat has taken
5) Loss of existing crates of items, which did not convert and will not be reimbursed
6) The icons, which are distracting and immersion breaking to a lot of people
7) The way in which there are now only 2 real combat professions, Melee and Ranged (every melee profession can use all melee weapons, every ranged profession can use all ranged weapons, as these are now combat level dependent, barring a handful of 'iconic' weapons.
8) the way in which doctors and cm's are turned into clerics and anticlerics (no physical medicines needed) is counter to the Science Fiction theme
9) clothing decays into rags in the course of just one fight
10) weapon certification changes mean it is actually a lot harder for people who are mid-levelling. Trying to retemplate into another type of combat (melee -> ranged) has become insanely difficult. This also affects the jedi, who do not fit in either of those classes.
11) the necessitating of grouping all the time means people who like to do things solo are basically told to take their money elsewhere (there are actually a LOT of people who like solo adventuring)
12) removing the combat role (mind buffing) from entertainers basically makes them feel useless
13) transformation of all non-combat professions in what the Tailor forum calls 'one-hit wonders' (anything and everything WILL kill you, since you are combat level 1)
14) the nerfing of several crafting professions (CM, Doc, Armorsmith, and to an extent Weaponsmith) into cookie-cutter professions
15) the complete marginalisation of anyone who does not have 2 elite combat professions
16) the level system itself, with damage output by critters depending on your combat level, which makes it so that anything that is a few levels above you is guaranteed to kill you, and anything too far (6 or more levels) below your level will not even grant xp.
17) the dumbing down of the combat system. In PVE, combat level is all-deciding. In PVP, the best stacker wins.
18) armor may have looked all the same on the outside, underneath there was a lot of variety. Now it is all cookie cutter on the inside, with different skins on the outside.
19) weapons are now artificially capped. No, slicing will not help. The better the weapon, the lower the slice.
20) the fact all creatures now have level indicators, is completely immersion breaking for those who like to hunt and explore in remote corners of adventure planets. All differences between mobs have been removed, everything has become generic. Where previously, scout/rangers could examine creatures to find out abilities and weaknesses, there is now nothing to examine.
21) the ridiculous way in which SOE treats its paying customers
The system is basically being ported from a skill based system, where a smart and prepared player could still take on a dangerous mob, to a level based system, where you will NEVER be able to defeat that dangerous mob, because the level difference adds a multiplier to its damage output.
Don't get me wrong, there were actually things that needed to be done, and I was all for it. I think the entire player base agreed that halving the effectiveness of armor and buffs and removing DOT weapons from the game was necessary. And by all means, give the jedi a different role, give them their own factions, their own conflict and end game. That would make the game a lot more appealing for new players who want to enjoy the PVP aspect of the game, and would give meaning to the many months of hard work that go into making a character jedi.
Unfortunately, where a lot could have been solved with a few tweaks and additions (which would also have cost a lot of work, I know), and some attention to a few neglected profession, SOE has chosen to turn SWG into a new game entirely, one that will appeal to an entirely different audience. IF (and that is a big IF) these players can weather the buggs.
Linna Baresi
Bloodfin Galaxy

DJkarlkani · May 2005

Its horrabile man,

I have been playing for 6+ months and when i frist started the game it was cool and i start building my guy up and learning the game. Then right when my player is nice and strong and i have work out a nice plan of what i need to hunt to get xp and have the right items to do it with, everything changes up. The Combat upgrade has destoryed the game its all bugged and very unbalanced in Player Vs Enviorment they have made it to where the weakest creaters, just your every day crates that are walking around everywhere are hard to kill.

Example i am at the lvl of 67 i try to fight something that is 67 it can just about kill me something that is 60 still can kill me its not until about 10 lvls under me that ican fight something that i dont have to keep healing myself.

Why did they release a unfinished major update when they where telling player it would come out may 5.? Its all about the release of star wars 3, and the expansion that will be released on may 5, along with the movie, The new expaintion is build off of the expansion

coqui · May 2005

been on this game since june 2003. Standed behind SOE decisions when it cames to changes in the game. Even in the CU, before it came i was all for it.

After triyng it out for some days i am really dissapointed, i barely log anymore. This combat upgrade was pushed to quickly without working out the bugs, they only tested it for 3 weeks. Then forced it on the lvie servers to have it up and running before the starwars episode 3 movie comes out. The reason behind it, to be able to cash on all the people that will join the game after the movie.

They knew the game was dying so they tried to improve it. The problem is that they never listened to the player base for answers. Many players have submitted great dieas that would make this game the best for years to come. Yet the developers have ignored them and come up with their own improvements. The players tried this improvements and gave advise which was ignored too.

eobis · May 2005

this was posted by asch she sums up my feelings better than i could have expressed them myself.

New Icons: We did not ask for our beautiful realistic game to be turned into the "My Little Pony - Disco Edition". This is one of several show stoppers for me. Not only did you put these new icons in a game where they have no business being (they are 100% genre-inappropriate not to mention unclear and distracting).. but you force us to rely on staring at them to function. Why are you punishing us? I would have fired you if you were on my staff.

SOLUTION: Here's a thought.. put the old icons.. no wait.. the whole old interface back in so we can test COMBAT. that's what we're supposed to be testing, right? Isnt' this the Combat Upgrade? If you insist that we need these new animated icons.. please take the old icons and give them a color treated state instead of these new noisy ones. This could be simply accomplished by adding a sharp contrasting color to the outer rim of the icon while it is in state and a fade of a lighter color to indicate the timer... but the timers on the icons are a bad idea anyway... see the section on the combat que for more.

New Font: This bulky crowded font is ruining the immersion of the game and it is very hard to read around. With this new font, I can't read spatial bubbles or other items in the game that are necessary to be legible in order to play effectively. The old font was perfectly chosen by someone who understood UI Design and usability.

SOLUTION: Put the old font back.. no wait.. put the whole old interface back so we can test COMBAT.

New HAM system/look: I've died now several times because there is no contrast on the ham bar when i'm losing health. The old ham bar is much better as even peripheral vision the stark white indicating damage gives some sort of cue that something is amiss. The eye catching white bit allows me to focus on what's happening in the middle of my screen and only when the sharp contrast of the white showing catches my eye do I need to stop looking at the breathtaking action/scenery and look at the interface. (this is what a good UI designer strives for, btw: an interface that is unnoticed except when needed). Also, If I were even slightly visually impaired , I can imagine that I would likely find the lack of contrast to be unplayable. If you are color blind (1 in 5 men in the world are btw) and you can not see the color red.. you can not see 2 colors of red... you only see whatever color it appears as to you and that is generally seen as a single color unless there is some serious contrast. The contrast is really really important. That's why Stop Signs are Red and White.. if they were Red and Red half the population wouldnt be able to read them.

SOLUTION: Put the old one back.. are you sensing a pattern here? I am.

Lack of Combat Que: Ok so i'm not sure who said we didnt want a combat que anymore but here's my experience with the new game. This actually sums up my entire combat experience with the CU so far.

--Find a creature that has the same number as me. (btw: I feel like the numbered level system is something of a dumbing-down of the game)
--Push the button.
--Watch the button carefully until it changes
--Push the button again
--Watch the button carefully until it changes
--Repeat for several minutes until you or the creature is dead (usually i'm dead because I had no visual indication on my ham bar that there was a problem)

If I wanted to play a game where all I did was watch a button and push it, I would go to Yahoo and play the weekly web games.. it would save me $75/mo. (yes I am a fiend with several accounts) and I would feel like I was getting what I paid for... a button to watch and push.

This "new" lack of que steals the ability to socialize while in combat. If I choose to say something to another player, I either have to type very very fast while watching the button or stand there while the mob chews on me so that I can stop pushing the button long enough to type. Of course after that i'm dead anyway so I have lots of time to talk. But even more importantly I was so busy with the necessity of watching the button, that I was unable to see anyone talking to me because I am so oblivious to everything going on So, its either fight or talk.. not both which is going to make coordinating combat with other players really miserable unless you're on a voice server. I thought one of the goals here was to encourage grouping and enhance social interaction between players, but it seems that even with the new forced grouping, there is a great deal less room for social interaction as noone really has time to talk while fighting. Additionally, by penalizing us for grouping with people of disparate "levels" you create a system where I can't just hunt with my friends. When my co-worker who plays only once a week gets on we will not be able to group up because we will be different levels. When my husband who plays less hours per evening than I do gets on, we will not be able to group. This seems like a DOWNGRADE ... You are destroying some of the wonderful (and in my experience unique) features of the game.

The lack of a combat que divides the players into two categories. Those who can write macros and those that can't. The ones that can (which includes myself) will find a way to write their own combat que so that they can enjoy socializing with other players and enjoying the beautiful 3D game that's hidden under the ugly button pushing game. Those that can't will be the silent unheard people that talk while standing in the safety of town. Or they will be the people that quit the game because it is too hard to understand because no one will help them because everyone is too busy watching the button. I might add that if you're going to force us to play a watch and push a button game, you should at least make the button look like it might belong in a Star Wars game. .

SOLUTION: Care to take a guess? Wait... its coming to me... Put back the old interface and UI so we can test COMBAT

Is that mob in combat with me? I don't know because there are no visual indicators that any creature is in combat with anything unless you can see it biting something or someone when you're up close and personal with it. Every mob I have attacked while playing has never shown me any reason to think it is in combat with me or anything else. After it incaps me.. it wanders off but is now a red dot on the radar. Is it still in combat with me? or is it now forever red to me until I kill it? This is far too confusing for a noob.

SOLUTION: I'm getting tired of repeating this.... but yet again the old system was better.. all the mobs in combat with me have their ham bar visible over their heads. This is easy, straight forward, simple, clean and really really obvious that I should pay attention to that mob.. especially if it's something I dont want to be in combat with. The old system also didnt clutter the game with unnecessary UI elements unless it was to illustrate an important point. That allowed the player to be totally immersed in a beautifully designed 3D environment and only disturbed when there was something that should be paid attention to.

New Con/Level System:
If i wanted to play a match the color and push the button game, they've already made one.. it's called Simon. It's for ages 4-8.

SOLUTION: The old level system was great. It added adventure to the game. There are some mobs that I had no business trying to tangle with but it was great fun to see if i could find a strategy to actually kill them. If I really wanted to see mobX dead, i'd get a group together and we'd all try to kill it with strategy, smarts, some logic and probably a little luck. It added some spice... some edge... it made the game really fun and challenging at every skill level and on every planet.

start over and Implement just these simple solutions to the existing live code:
Things that needed to be changed in the old system to make almost everything more challenging and fun and balanced:
Less uber armor. You've done that.. good work!
Less uber Doc buffs. You've done that.. good work!
Nerf DOT's. Limit the max uses on a DOT weapon to 50 or less.
Redistribute the Skill Tree. You've done this. Great work! Stackers can no longer stack. Job done.
More types of armor to choose from: You've done this.. The new armor changes and certs look like they will make a huge difference in how frequently armor is worn and how much it will affect gameplay. No need to adjust the HAM.. just the armor certs and stats as you have. Great job!
More cool weapons: You've done this.. and the new weapons are really aweome. especially the different cert levels that you get them at.. it makes sense! Great job!
Ok now let's talk about items 1-3 and how they affect the rest of the game. Essentially you need to nerf me and DOT's and it'll be all good..
I will preface this by admitting that I do not do any PVP. I only do PVE nowadays because its peaceful and npcs dont talk too much smack..and the smack they do talk is appropriate to genre and I enjoy it and welcome it. I used to do PVP.. ive been retired for over a year now. I am, however a total loot junky and while I don't sell very much of it.. I love to loot it and display it. It's the pursuit that I enjoy.

Here's my typical day playing galaxies..
Log in and get 125% mind buffs and 2800 Doc buffs. Strap on my 90% base ADK Stun Comp, my 860 ADK Hammer, my 60% base ADK PSG. Now i'm ready to party!
So where to today? couple solo runs killing everything but the SBD's on the vette? Maybe solo a few Elders and some protectors.. maybe 30-50 Krayts.. enie meinie mienie mo.
....So off I go to Dathomir where I lay waste to the sisters for a few hours and come home with some uber DOT pikes ( I delete anything less than a 200 strength DOT because its worthless otherwise), some great skill tapes and an inventory full of crystals. And in my 3 hour buff cycle, i've been to the village twice to drop off my xp for FS. I routinely get 200k XP in a half hour in the Labor Camp Cave. Wow does that make leveling fast!

Now let's look at how to logically nerf me.. the uber looter and XP repository without killing the rest of this game:
It really comes down to doc buffs and fewer uses on DOTs.
Make Doc buffs nominal, which you've done. Now.. without my 2800 doc buffs, I can't put on that 90% base armor because the encumberance is so high from all those stun layers that I wouldnt be able to special.

If I can't special, it'll take too long to kill that Elder in a buff cycle because all I can really do is tank and she's not gonna die from my good looks. If I can't kill the nightsisters solo, then I won't be bringing home any DOT pikes that aren't the ones that drop off the little puny nightsisters that I can actually kill without specialing in a reasonable amount of time. And last I checked.. those are really puny DOTS and no one would bother to use them in PVP anyway because of the speed of application to diminshing return. If it takes a whole group of people to kill a nightsister then DOT pikes will become less common. Once the DOTs of the previous weapons wear out there will be very few replacing them and they will be pretty weak because you'll need a good sized group to go to Dath and survive such a hunt.

Now that it takes a big group to go get all the cool loot..the cool loot once again becomes valuable and less common. This also makes XP slower to get for the individual because of the lack of buffs and armor.. thus making mastering a skill take longer. When we first started long before doc buffs and armor.. it took us a month of very steady play to master marksman and we had a blast doing it. Now with fat doc buffs, great weapons and insane armor, I can master marksman in a few hours tops.

Now about those DOT uses. So I have this pike that I looted. It's not the best on the server by any means, but it's pretty sweet. I has a 295 Mind Poison and has 7000 uses left on it. I can sweep a lot of nightsisters or players or whatever before that DOT is going to wear out. Meantime.. if I were a pvper people would see me coming and run for it and battles would never happen because no one would want to fight with that nasty pike around.

Now if that pike only had between 50-100 uses or mabye only 25.. then it would mess up a few people in a couple of battles and it would be burned out and hanging on my wall as a nice souviner. Limiting the max number of uses seems like a much easier fix as it is just a couple of lines in the loot table to modify. Now if there were only 50 uses on my uber pike that I looted, I wouldn't be using it for garden variety pvp.. i'd be saving it for those ancient krayts or elders or places where as a group we were going to be in battle for a long time and we really needed the extra help from the DOT.

Now after all this is implemented in the existing code we should see a much better Galaxies. After these changes have been implemented and debugged, I think you will find that the rest of that unplayable stuff that you put into TC5 was a waste of time and energy and way too much overkill. Let's get this important stuff on live and then look at whether other stuff needs to be changed as well.. baby steps guys, baby steps!

edin · May 2005

soe gave us players a few token weeks of testing and then pushed it on us live well before it was ready, the cu is riddled with bugs and we are paying for an unfinished product once again.

there have been many protests about the cu both in game, on the official forums and just about anywhere else that allows us players to voice our concern, the vast majority of folk do not want this cu at all! the old system was 100 times more enjoyable than this offering and catered for group and solo players, the cu caters only for groups and more than one person has commented on the similiarity between eq and swg now.

its not an upgrade at all its a total change in the gaming system and frankly nowhere near as good as the original, again i stress the players did not want this change, we made suggestions to have the original system tweaked instead, all our input was ignored by soe or deleted from their forums

there have been many folk cancelling their accounts over this and i may be one of them, for i like many others have now been banned from the official forums for giving my opinion on the cu and soe's handling of the game in general

Clattuc · May 2005

Remember Koster's First and Second Laws of MMORPGs:

If the players love it, you're a great game designer.
If the players hate it, they're spoiled.

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Star Wars Galaxies: Slashdot Seeks CU Answers

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