Take all your raids and pvp stuff and toss it into the journey, then make hitting "end level" impossible. Look at games like EvE, Ryzom & even darkfall that do this, you are always skilling up with no end in sight. Once you take away that need to race to a endgame people start living in a game world. I found games without endgames to be a much more well rounded experience.
Take all your raids and pvp stuff and toss it into the journey, then make hitting "end level" impossible. Look at games like EvE, Ryzom & even darkfall that do this, you are always skilling up with no end in sight. Once you take away that need to race to a endgame people start living in a game world. I found games without endgames to be a much more well rounded experience.
It is true and in a game like EVE it works. However, those games are played by a relatively small sub-group.
But I think the key for a successful end-game will be to move away from static content towards more dynamic. This applies whether it is PvP or PvE. Once you have a game world that can be changed by players, becoming a good multiplayer gamer is more valuable. Today, the most popular titles have fairly static end-game, whether it is in a form of dungeon raiding or PvP scenarios/arenas. There is nothing wrong with that approach, but it does not offer same level of creativity or require more imagination than a dynamic world (like EVE) where your actions in the game world do matter.
Unfortunately, games where we do have more dynamic world are too complex or too harsh for a casual players with limited time to play. Or they are simply not fun for the large portion of the MMO community. Perhaps, games like GW2 will take a right step forward for less complex dynamic worlds.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
As I see it should MMOs have 2 phases no matter if they have levels or not: Training and endgame.
Training is the regular game which turn you from a peasant into a hero.
But once you are a hero there should be many choices for you.
The current raiding, hard group instances, battlegrounds, arenas and daily missions is not enough.
Here is a few ideas:
Guild centered endgame:
This is stuff you do together with your guild, like AoCs guildcity. being maxed out is not a must here but it really helps.
I think guilds should be able to design and build their own village/city/castle/dungeon. They should be able to put in defense, hire npcs for menial work such as barkeeps and clerks, they should fill the merchants stock with crafted items and similar stuff.
Here they should also be able to challenge other guilds both to games (like tournaments and archery contests) if they have built the right facilities for it and G vs G PvP, like sieges
Solo endgame:
Games often offers solo players a lot but as soon as they come to the endgame they have to reroll. Some hard and solo specific endgame content would make them happy, they are paying players like anyone else. And not only regular styled solo instances but some non combat things to. let the player depend on stealth and intelligence in many missions, like sneaking in and stealing things, while avoiding traps and guards.
Many group playing people including myself ain't very keen on solo players but if the game have soloing in the entire game except the endgame something is wrong.
Fun and games:
This is more things like gambling at the tavern, entering a dancing contest at a ball and stuff like that. When Conan gets his hands on gold he spends them at the local tavern, but in MMOs you really can't do that. The possibilities are countless and things like this is easy to put in, it seems like GW2 will have some things like this.
A system where you can join or create your own clan.
That clan can either build a fortress/city to defend or capture an already developed one.
The clan can take/create more than one fortress/city but would have to simultaneously defend them all and create a kingdom.
The ability to have different roles within a clan, being a crafter, miner, warrior, politician or whatever you choose (sandbox).
An ever expanding land that generates and suites the needs of the playerbase.
A market akin to EvE.
The ability to kill anyone you want anywhere. If you have a license to kill (military of the territory) you won't be punished but your territory might face reprecussions (political and economical). If you kill someone without reason you might be flagged as a wanted outlaw.
Pretty much a mixture of EvE, Darkfall and Lineage 2.
Aside from the expanding land and local banking, you described Darkfall
Expanding land and market is important to me. Also I knew this which is why I said it was a mixture of current MMO's, including Darkfall. Wasn't Darkfall plagued with glitches, griefers and flawed gameplay? Not to mention a shady company business model among other drawbacks?
I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying so excuse me if I'm wrong about it. But it seems that you say that the gap between players isn't created by game mechanics. That's silly. A level 20 player in WoW is absolutely worthless in every way, shape, or form to a level 80 character. There is no reason, by the game mechanics alone, for a level 80 player to be at all interested in hanging around a level 20 character. The level 20 cannot help a level 80 at all, per game mechanics. Sure there are social reasons, by I might as well use Skype or IM and not pay for some game. Or post on a forum like this, which is pretty much what I do because I certainly don't play any MMO's right now.
Darkfall sounds interesting but it's derisively called Gankall for a reason. Using a statistical advantage to lord your might over other players who literally have no chance to put up a real contest is of no interest to me. Plus the game looks like butt.
Games like Darkfall also have a gap, levels is a way to handle experience and there is a gap between a noob and someone who played a lot with his character in DF too.
Since items are closer to eachother and not level based there a noob could fix gear or stuff for his clannmates but he is just a little more helpful than the Wow 20.
WAR did actually try some things to get lower level character being useful in the war as well as high level ones, but they cut out a lot of it before launch so it never really worked.
It is possible to make mechanics were guilds have use for both high and low level characters but if you want them to do stuff together you really need to cut down the gap between a character that is newly made and a veteran character a lot. That is the only way.
You outline the actual issue but then ignore it in looking at the wrong issue. Players level too quickly. MMORPGs used to be more about the journey than reaching an endgame where you could do the game lobby thing.
Face it, that is what an endgame is - it is a game lobby. You may as well be playing a FPS/RTS. For many people though, this is what they want. They do not want to be bothered with the leveling aspect - they just want the game lobby. For these people then, you will basically want to design the game as that FPS/RTS game lobby. These people keep playing. They can do their repetitive stuff and socialize. You can toss out a new map with a new carrot and they are golden..
For those that enjoy the journey... well, you would not be addressing an endgame for them would you?
I would agree with this except that you're not taking into consideration that MMO's used to be about 5% as popular as they are now.
MMO's were played by totally dedicated nerds most commonly in poorly lit dorm rooms or basements. Sure it used to be about spending hours leveling, but now MMO's are played by much more average joes, who don't have the same time commitments but still want to play something that can be satisfying.
Personally I don't see what was wrong with endgame in Vanilla wow. There was fun stuff to do regardless of commitment level, and the gear requirement for success in any capacity wasn't a fraction of what it's become now. Personally I know I was raiding and pvping in greens for a long time, and worked super hard just to get certain blue quality drops.
My suggestion: Don't make the game so centered on epic-lewts. Make it more centered on character development and customization. Let players unlock more ways of developing their character and make it unique as they get to higher levels, and give them enough gear to let them look the way they want, without having stats grow to completely outrageous proportions.
There is absolutely no need for an "endgame". There should be ramping difficulty, not sudden plateaus. Leveling is treated as its own process, while dungeon delving, epic quests, territory control, pvp battles... all of those are considered seperate. Blend the two together, and cut out the level cap. There's no reason why you should have to finish one part of the game to start another. Put in more concurrent progression methods, and make them start earlier. There's really no reason to have such hard seperation.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Comments
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
It is true and in a game like EVE it works. However, those games are played by a relatively small sub-group.
But I think the key for a successful end-game will be to move away from static content towards more dynamic. This applies whether it is PvP or PvE. Once you have a game world that can be changed by players, becoming a good multiplayer gamer is more valuable. Today, the most popular titles have fairly static end-game, whether it is in a form of dungeon raiding or PvP scenarios/arenas. There is nothing wrong with that approach, but it does not offer same level of creativity or require more imagination than a dynamic world (like EVE) where your actions in the game world do matter.
Unfortunately, games where we do have more dynamic world are too complex or too harsh for a casual players with limited time to play. Or they are simply not fun for the large portion of the MMO community. Perhaps, games like GW2 will take a right step forward for less complex dynamic worlds.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
As I see it should MMOs have 2 phases no matter if they have levels or not: Training and endgame.
Training is the regular game which turn you from a peasant into a hero.
But once you are a hero there should be many choices for you.
The current raiding, hard group instances, battlegrounds, arenas and daily missions is not enough.
Here is a few ideas:
Guild centered endgame:
This is stuff you do together with your guild, like AoCs guildcity. being maxed out is not a must here but it really helps.
I think guilds should be able to design and build their own village/city/castle/dungeon. They should be able to put in defense, hire npcs for menial work such as barkeeps and clerks, they should fill the merchants stock with crafted items and similar stuff.
Here they should also be able to challenge other guilds both to games (like tournaments and archery contests) if they have built the right facilities for it and G vs G PvP, like sieges
Solo endgame:
Games often offers solo players a lot but as soon as they come to the endgame they have to reroll. Some hard and solo specific endgame content would make them happy, they are paying players like anyone else. And not only regular styled solo instances but some non combat things to. let the player depend on stealth and intelligence in many missions, like sneaking in and stealing things, while avoiding traps and guards.
Many group playing people including myself ain't very keen on solo players but if the game have soloing in the entire game except the endgame something is wrong.
Fun and games:
This is more things like gambling at the tavern, entering a dancing contest at a ball and stuff like that. When Conan gets his hands on gold he spends them at the local tavern, but in MMOs you really can't do that. The possibilities are countless and things like this is easy to put in, it seems like GW2 will have some things like this.
Expanding land and market is important to me. Also I knew this which is why I said it was a mixture of current MMO's, including Darkfall. Wasn't Darkfall plagued with glitches, griefers and flawed gameplay? Not to mention a shady company business model among other drawbacks?
Games like Darkfall also have a gap, levels is a way to handle experience and there is a gap between a noob and someone who played a lot with his character in DF too.
Since items are closer to eachother and not level based there a noob could fix gear or stuff for his clannmates but he is just a little more helpful than the Wow 20.
WAR did actually try some things to get lower level character being useful in the war as well as high level ones, but they cut out a lot of it before launch so it never really worked.
It is possible to make mechanics were guilds have use for both high and low level characters but if you want them to do stuff together you really need to cut down the gap between a character that is newly made and a veteran character a lot. That is the only way.
I would agree with this except that you're not taking into consideration that MMO's used to be about 5% as popular as they are now.
MMO's were played by totally dedicated nerds most commonly in poorly lit dorm rooms or basements. Sure it used to be about spending hours leveling, but now MMO's are played by much more average joes, who don't have the same time commitments but still want to play something that can be satisfying.
Personally I don't see what was wrong with endgame in Vanilla wow. There was fun stuff to do regardless of commitment level, and the gear requirement for success in any capacity wasn't a fraction of what it's become now. Personally I know I was raiding and pvping in greens for a long time, and worked super hard just to get certain blue quality drops.
My suggestion: Don't make the game so centered on epic-lewts. Make it more centered on character development and customization. Let players unlock more ways of developing their character and make it unique as they get to higher levels, and give them enough gear to let them look the way they want, without having stats grow to completely outrageous proportions.
Put me into the DAoC crowd. Others already mentioned it: classic DAoC solved the endgame problem many years ago.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Endgame needs to be player driven for the most part from my point of view.
1.) Complex territory control
2.) Competitive PvP
With Dev created content and dynamic events
1.) You're classic dungeons
2.) Dynamic PvE encounters/epic bosses
There is absolutely no need for an "endgame". There should be ramping difficulty, not sudden plateaus. Leveling is treated as its own process, while dungeon delving, epic quests, territory control, pvp battles... all of those are considered seperate. Blend the two together, and cut out the level cap. There's no reason why you should have to finish one part of the game to start another. Put in more concurrent progression methods, and make them start earlier. There's really no reason to have such hard seperation.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.