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General: Fighting Talk: Old vs New MMOs Part 2

124

Comments

  • FluxiiFluxii Member Posts: 184

    Originally posted by agnostic4eve



    People bashing old school MMO's for solo'ability are a bit off base. For example every class in EQ could solo, it wasn't the most enjoyable endeavor nor the most exciting, but it could be done.

     

    Rangers-Fear kite animals

    Shadowknights-Fear kite whatever they chose

    Necro's-Whatever they wanted

    Wizards-Quad kiting

    Druids-Quad kiting

    Shaman-Slow tank in da face

    Warriors-Green con killers

    Rogue-Green con killers

    Enchanters-Charming

    Magicians-Whatever they wanted

    Monks-Blue/Green con killers

    Cleric-Anything undead

    Paladin-Anything undead/Blue con

    Bards-Chant/Charm kiting

    The main difference in these classes was how much downtime you had between kills.

    I think the rating they gave old school MMO's for solo'ing was about right. Also at the time those games had tons of websites and forums available for telling people how to do it. It just wasnt available in game. So you had to hunt for the information online, or learn it yourself.

    I solo'd my old main quite often (Shaman) in EQ. It wasnt the easiest thing to learn but once you did, it was quite rewarding.

     

    Also on the old dungeons, how many old school players remember the Guk trains, then when Kunark came out, the sebilis trains, oh man. That was fear. And it made the community much stronger, and friendships much tighter.


     

    Don't forget, bards could swarm kite too... =p

     

    Is it the sub-20 crowd that has only played w0w or GW that writes half of these responses?  It's pretty sad to see how "off base" or "out of touch" these comments are.  Here's an idea... play the game's before you judge it.  Then again, since the old ones are out of their "heyday" some people are just never gonna get it.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    I pretty much agree with this article.  When it came to dungeions and dying, there was actually reason to plan accordingly.. make diplomatic decisions, in general..take precautions to avoid death.  It wasn't just a quick 45 second run.  Deaths could take 5 minutes or longer to return.. and depending on the game you were playing, you'd lose your items, or experience, or even a level because of a bonehead move or because you weren't paying attention.  It added thrill, excitement, and sometimes anger.  It all added to the experience and there's a reason why so many people speak of their past experiences in such high regard.  I believe solo-ing has gotten better.  I believe that quests were sorely needed to push players forward.  They are an excellent way to move people through the content that the developers have worked so hard to create.  I do however believe that games have become a bit too item-centric.  I still can't believe Blizzard has so many people.  It's the same thing every patch, expansion, and update.  New items.  Perhaps some fluff addons that should have been in the game years ago.  Anyways, I DO believe something has been lost with the introductions of LFG panels.  Instant dungeon finders and similar tools.  Those things (while useful) have taken the socialization and community away from MMO's.  Communities by far were better than.  When you asked for help, you'd get help back then.  No, you have to get insulted and berated 10 times before you actually recieve any sort of useful information.  People were more willing to help because they know what it's like to start off new or what it's like to be left in the dark about something that couldn't be found on the internet.  Now, everything is on the internet.  It's become a cake-walk for new players to find information.  I'm not saying that it's a bad thing.  I'm just saying that the mentallity of the common gamer has changed for an understand and helpful comrad, to an apathetic, greedy, harsh adversary.

     

    Ultimately, as the genre has evolved, the feel and meaning of it all has slowly been falling by the wayside.  There's less thrill, less excitement, less memorable moments within games now.  The communities in general have become angry, immature, apathetic, and self-centered.  Death and combat has become a mere afterthought.  I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online.  I've seen the transformation first hand.  It's depressing.  But, what are you gonna do?  Nothing really.  Well, short of winning the lottery and making my own game.  But that's obviously not very likely.. as I do not play the lottery =P

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    Are you serious?  You're comparing an online MMO to a PnP game and insulting the fact that you can meet other people in dungeons?  PnP games were made for what.. a small group of people with a dungeonmaster?  Of Course you didn't meet other people in dungeons in a fairly scripted adventure.  Todays instances aren't realistic.  You NEVER meet anyone because it isn't scripted into your adventure.  How is that better?  Not to mention, in WoW, you're not even playing with people that exist on your server half the time.  At least there was a chance to have a memorable experience with other players in old games.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    I don't think many people are saying that trains were a good mechanic either.  It may have helped add to the mystique that is now dead because it made the dungeon feel more dangerous.  And how is that not realistic anyways?  If I were some nasty creature and wanted to eat your brains and keep your shinies in my hole in the wall... I'd chase your ass all the way to the exit.  I'm just sayin'. 

     

    I don't ever want to see trains any more in MMO's, but if still added something..as frustrating as it was.. to the experience.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    Originally posted by Neopagan



    Hmm contentious issues I am not going to butt in on the argument I am just going to give you guys my opinion; I prefer solo playing than group playing I make no bones about that. If I do group it is with RL friends - I started with DAoC way back in the day. And I must admit I did group more then, the community did seem more mature. Perhaps it is because I am older and I cannot put up with imbecilic comments or players that are loose cannons I do not know. But it seems to me the latest batch of MMO players the majority (in my experience) are immature, sugar addicted, pre-pubescent ass hats. They want to level fast and get the best gear at the expense of everyone else ... doesn't anyone play for fun anymore? I immerse myself into a game and am them pleasantly surprised when that unexpected ding occurs. Solo playing in early MMO's was harsh, take no prisoners, dangerous scary which I agree is sorely lacking in modern renditions. However I think early games were biased to community play I do not have a problem with that  - as I am a firm believer in giving the player a choice, to group or not to group. Fine toss in a couple of dungeon crawls that can only be completed in a group but this should not be done at the expense of solo content. The secret is to get a good balance of both play styles.

    One major thing I do not miss about vintage games is KSing and camping that was rife. It was my one major gripe - spending 20 minutes just waiting for a boss to spawn only to see him slaughtered by a random player on a fly through. That is not fun I will never ever miss that. This kind of leads into public dungeons yes they can work but they were also subject to the aforementioned camping policy. So I rarely entered them, again I see a middle path where there is a healthy balance of public and private, solo and group content. This seems to me to be the best option not only for the player base but for the company's coffers. A wider appeal will surely be condusive to a healthier population.


     

    So make some public dungeons with their own set of quests and objectives.. and add some instanced content to the end of it.  There.. you've got some of both worlds.  Both players should be happy.  Win-Win.  It will never happen though.  No company will take a chance on anything that isn't cookie cutter.  The ones that do either don't have the money to create a polished game or they didn't employ enough people with the proper skill to make a polished game.  I think there is room for a hybrid Sand Park or Theme Box.  You can make both the old and new gamers happy.  You may not kill blizzard, but it can work if you build it right.  I wish I was rich.  I have so many ideas that would be good.. but I'm not, and I'm nobody when it comes to developing a game.  lol..

  • SarethorSarethor Member UncommonPosts: 41

    Unfortunately, starting with WoW's unprecedented success, it seems that MMO's now are simply geared toward revenue generation (ie. copy the EQ -> WoW model).  If you look at WoW's evolution it boils down to, at the lowest level, whatever is required to grow/maintain the playerbase and keep the revenue stream flowing.  It's still a great game, but it's a LONG way from what it was in terms of challenge and community.  It's near-instant gratification with very little sense of epic accomplishment but alas, that's what the vast majority of the player distribution is after and therefore that drives the development.  If you disagree with this, then you're likely not objective as the data is quite conclusive.

    The vast majority realize that subscription MMOs need to be profitable to stay up, but the reality is that most of what many of us enjoyed back in the '96-'02 time period of MMO infancy is likely lost forever.  My biggest fear is that the demands of profitability will keep us from seeing real out-of-the-box development.  GW2 is probably the only thing of recent design which appears to trying to recapture some of the older MMO essence and, naturally, it's not subscription.  I'm not sure what that really means in terms of its potential longevity but time will tell.

    What I see everyday, in WoW, is near all people are compelled to group in order to get their "accomplishment" endorphin rush but as soon as that's over, they go back to their individualism and/or even log off.   Most of the non-raid activities (eg. battlegrounds) aren't compelling for actual play.  They are flooded with bots and people who are only there to accrue gear/point/rep and attempting to complete the objective(s) or even kill the enemy  isn't compulsory as you get something for losing - all day, every day. 

    I miss the sense of community where you had many people of similar mindset all banding together to achieve something - both long and short term - and they played because they really enjoyed it and for no other reason.   Perhaps we'll see that again, someday.

    The internet is an amazing platform for some people to showcase their deficiencies as a person.

    Regards,
    Sarethor

  • SertiiSertii Member Posts: 52

    This article disgused me with how biased it is towards older games. The writer has been too influenced by his feeling of nostalgia

    SteamID: Sertii

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  • Deathwing980Deathwing980 Member UncommonPosts: 80

    All honesty, i prefer old mmos over the new ones... at least in old mmos i could do whatever i wanted and be whoever i wanted, it was a giant RP that you could do what you wanted when you wanted and suffer the consequences of it (IE Ultima ONLINE!)

    I loved UO for the reason that if you wanted to be the goody goody hero you could be it, or you could ebt hat evil jackass of a necromancer who wants to destroy the world... you could go about mugging people for any reason and get what you wanted and then when you returned to a town you would be flagged as an evil doer and be dealt with by the guards, at least that game made it fun.. you could start your own community with friends or random people who are just as bad as you... have a town thats dedicated to evil and even kill your neighbors for their keys befor ethey kill you later that week for doing so lol

     

    Most modern MMO's dont have that fun experience that i crave for, its all be the good guy or be the badguy set in between it all.. never be what you want to be or do what you want to do... its all set in stone and never changing, games like UO were the utter best and will still be in my eyes unless they create a UO clone in 3D (closest was DAOC in some way)

     

    and im also sick of seeing everyone spam in new games or free games that "WoW IS TEH GREATEST" when seeing that only makes me want to hurl and not go to any new mmo's out there... the communities are destroyed by them *sigh*

  • DominisiDominisi Age of Conan CorrespondentMember Posts: 95

    For those of you saysing EvE should be concidered for the "new mmos" eve was released in 2003 so it falls under the old category.

    image

  • NinjaGazNinjaGaz Member UncommonPosts: 53

    I think that the massive thing that the old MMOs have over the new ones... is simply that they were new to the player. UO was very different to any other game I'd played and it was exciting to play in a world filled with all these players. Every experience was new and exciting.

    10 years or so later, and anyone who is old enough to have played UO has done it or seen it before. I don't think you can quite get the same feeling from a dungeon, etc once you've been in 500 other dungeons. Killing 10 bears in 1999 was much more fun than 10 bears in 2009.

    That's one of my main gripes with games these days. They all are pretty much the same. Areas like crafting/careers have never been developed well and there is still no game which has amazing PvP. I think following the same formula as every one will bring relative success, but nobody will truely excel until they find something special in their game.

  • mmorpglotrommorpglotro Member Posts: 47

    This article made me think of my DAOC days...the community was awesome, always helpful, and I can't remember one single rude incident. It was fun. Some of the newer games, I agree, seem to have lost some of that. I see rude behavior now daily in the games I play, some by the hour lol. Some of the PUGs I have been forced into were painful (tanks DPSing, healers tanking, getting the whole team wiped out), but I keep playing because I understand that the developers are trying to satisfy a lot of tastes in gaming...I feel more prone to solo to avoid some of the community elements that take the fun out it for me, so a choice to solo or group is good news for me. When peeps I know are on, I love to game with them. When not, I don't want to go out of my way to find a competent group when I can run around by myself until they log on.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825

    The failings of modern MMO's are certainly being held up to the light. In many ways the guild is now the only refuge you will have for the paucity of community in them.

    The soloist theme has ssen MMO's take great leaps forward but as many leaps back. Just like full PvE and full PVP solo and grouping do not mix well. There are stratergies to mitigate the problem but nothing that solves it.

  • SanguinelustSanguinelust Member UncommonPosts: 812

    Like the last one, this was a very fun read. Keep up the good work!

  • Lathander81Lathander81 Member Posts: 611

    Originally posted by Sertii

    This article disgused me with how biased it is towards older games. The writer has been too influenced by his feeling of nostalgia

    The writer was not biased when he gave kudos to modern games in part. Did you even read it?

    Anyway, my earliest MMO was FFXI and it came out close after EQ.  I remember the commuity was awesome and your guild(linkshell)  was only an extention of that. On FFXI you had one toon that could be different jobs. This made you more accountable for your actions and turn everyday players into legends. People would always stop and help you complete a quest or coffer camp. You stayed hours and hours cause of the people and you were immersed in the game world.  Yes there were jackasses and ninjas but it only took one day for everyone to know who these people were. I think community is the most important point on this article. If it was not for a community then you might as well play a console RPG.  The point is even though the old school games made you depend on people its that very thing that made us stronger.

  • freyjuskafreyjuska Member Posts: 3

    Great analysis! Although i have never played the real old school MMOs such as UO, I can compare Lineage 2 (launched 2003) to Lord of the Rings Online (launched 2007) - see my rankings in the same categories as author of the article chose.

    Game World: OLD 4/10, NEW 9/10

    Here I disagree with the article - at least when comparing L2 and LOTRO. For me the realistic graphics and variability of the game world in LOTRO are far more important that "enjoying" a 30 minute on-foot journey to some POI in L2... Such a journey might have been exciting the first time, but not 3 times a day 7 days a week.

     

    Player Character: OLD 4/10, NEW 8/10

    I am very subjective here. I've always had passion for small folks such as dwarves in L2 and hobbits in LOTRO. In L2, the dwarves were pityful creatures which had the smallest choice of classes available (2 least "owning" classes in game) and their only real purpose was crafting. I always attempted some PVPing and other masochistic behaviours and I was quite good at it (1 vs. 1), but it was nothing comparing to LOTRO, where I can build my hobbit in a wonderful variety of ways. Also the character appearance is far more customizable than in L2 where 1/3 of all top level dwarves (and other races) of the same class looked the same.

     

    Newbie Experience: OLD 3/10, NEW 10/10

    I totally agree with the article.

     

    Solo Experience: OLD 1/10, NEW 6/10

    Three very important subjective factors I have to mention - I HATE grinding, I HATE doing something without clear purpose and I used to play masochistic classes in L2 (whereas there was no other choice for my loved race). That explains my ranking pretty much. Nowadays solo play is very enjoyable for me, mostly relaxing, though never as fun as group tank&spank game :)

    Dungeon Crawls & Instances: OLD 2/10, NEW 9/10

    My hate for grinding applies here as well. In Lineage II, the difference between dungeons and solo grind in the field was just the number of players and difficulty of mobs. No variability, no story... The only pleasure came from actual group of people, who you depended on (and them on you). In LOTRO, some of the dungeons are even beautiful puzzles to sort, you can choose the difficulty of almost every dungeon depending on experience of your group etc... And the success is still very dependent on each member of the group. Awesome.

    Community: OLD 9/10, NEW 4/10

    Oh, here comes the sentiment. Yes, I have met awesome people and good online friends in LOTRO. Yes, we do a lot of things together. Yes, grouping is fun. But there is a big BUT mentioned also by the article author. I really really (and so much really) miss the necessary player interaction from L2. The lack of market life (similar to the one descibed in the article) in LOTRO is tearing my heart apart. In L2, Giran square was a vibrant spot I could have spent 5 hours just walking between sellers, chatting, negotiating the prices - I LOVED THAT SO MUCH! Also, nothing could be more compassionate and lovely than a whole clan (= guild) of us porting to low level clan member shouting for help because some high level asshole had just killed him. No organization, no preparation - just spotaneous will to help a buddy in need from maybe 15 people! Something I have never experienced since. It's not fault of LOTRO community, which is great (and I'm lucky to be part of a very helpful and nice kinship = guild). It's fault of game system, who enables us to enjoy great solo play and relaxing time, but steals the dependance on other people from us.

    Here I would also like to mention my friends I first met in Lineage II 6 years ago - we have never met before in real life. I stopped playing L2 4 years ago and I'm still in contact with them and consider them my great real life friends. Thanks to them for showing me how awesome friendship started online can be! :))

    Active Lord of the Rings Online player (Freyjuska HUN 65, Brewbelly MIN 55+, some low lvl alts)

    Former Lineage II player (played on ATK L2, Dark Angels, Abyss, Lost Souls, Dragon Network: Infinity servers)

  • JixxJixx Member Posts: 159

    In my opinion anything that came out after WoW is new anything before is old.  Lord of the Rings hardly counts as an old MMO.

    it is more theme park than WoW.

     

     

    The thing I don't understand about the new vs old debate is why the social aspect of the game seemed so much better in old games.  Even today UO still has a better social climate.  Just doesn't make since to me.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

         Jixx.. I think it's the genre and where they came from.. Many of us "old" gamers came from the days of dice, paper & pencil RPG.. Some from early entry computers as well in the 90's..  MMORPG back in the day were more RPG, living in a world, then todays games that claim to be MMORPG, but operate and function more like console game lobbies.. Back in the day, you had a choice, either be social by hiring or become friends with someone who could port you (druid and wizzies), or huff and puff it across a dozen zones that might take you the better half of the evening..  Once you made the trip, you normally bound yourself to a nearby city and made that home for awhile..

         Many of us old style gamers never played wanting instant gratification, like the new style.. We didn't play for the sake of running around saying "my gear is better then your gear" (EPEEN factor).. It was a social world.. It had it's faults, that could of and should of been tweaked, but by 2005 devs realized they could make twice the revenue by expanding into the genre of "console" play..  The boom of mmo gamers from  the mid 1990's to current isn't because old mmo gamers cloned themselves or mated like rabbits, but because as I said the devs went after and opened a new market..  Sad thing is, that new market is a bigger audience then the old style RPG'ers..

         IMO  WoW and similar new games are not targeting or designed for the roll the dice RPGers.. they are targeting the click and shoot console gamers..  Is that a bad thing.. nope.. that is their option.. I'm just sadden as many are that the original RPG genre is being squeezed out for the sake of money..  I'm about ready to go back and find a "roll the dice" group to hang out with again..  Is there a new "edition" of AD&D out yet?  lol

  • trugamertrugamer Member UncommonPosts: 11

    i rekon ppl solo because they know the game is going to suck so they want to succubus the good stuff for a while until their brain switches off and they have to throw it away. You can't and you dont want to solo in a good game because everyone is on the same ecstasy high.......hey man wanna trip, sure man, hey your a mage, take this i found it yesterday, cool, ill play range and heal u, with some support dmg, awesome, lets go.

     

    happy days

  • DrPhibesDrPhibes Member Posts: 5

    'Train!'

     

    That made my day :) anyone who've spent some time in the Temple of Three Winds start running for cover when they see that word in the chat .

     

    AO was the game that got me hooked on MMOs, but user created worlds in NWN were a great option if you wanted to go online and adventure with friends. Much smaller scale of course, but you got to know everybody on the servers you played on.

     

  • freyjuskafreyjuska Member Posts: 3

    Originally posted by Jixx



    In my opinion anything that came out after WoW is new anything before is old.  Lord of the Rings hardly counts as an old MMO.

    it is more theme park than WoW.

     Jixx, I was actually referring to LOTRO as the "new" MMO in my comparison (the old one for me was Lineage II).

     

    The thing I don't understand about the new vs old debate is why the social aspect of the game seemed so much better in old games.  Even today UO still has a better social climate.  Just doesn't make since to me.


     

    Active Lord of the Rings Online player (Freyjuska HUN 65, Brewbelly MIN 55+, some low lvl alts)

    Former Lineage II player (played on ATK L2, Dark Angels, Abyss, Lost Souls, Dragon Network: Infinity servers)

  • Deathwing980Deathwing980 Member UncommonPosts: 80

    @ JIXX,

    Old MMO's were the best in all aspects simply because the people knew how to play and had their own means of helping everyone when you needed it, be it out of sheer kindness or for some money.

    I loved being the new guy in Ultima, I had to go out searching the lands for one simple mineral for my new weapon or search for a specific plant for my spells to complete my scroll crafting...

    Point is, people enjoyed actually having to communicate with others to do things, instead of getting the door slammed in their face like i had last night when playing LOTRO....

     

    I got NOOB SPAMMED and F**K YOU /Tell by a lot of people becuase they do nothing but down everyone, so i had to go call my friend and see if he was available to go help me kill a damn orc to get a ruined elven blade to finish my Quest to become an expert Crafter...

    Yeah, Communities were the damn best in the days of the old MMO's

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085

    I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again: MMO's don't work like they're supposed to when the developers force themselves to provide for the lowest common denominator. To me, this is the largest problem with MMO's since Blizzard hit the scene. Fun is great, we all like fun. MMO's were never supposed to be about instant gratification, but exploration and discovery, whether that be of the mechanics, the world, or the social aspects that come with an online community. I'm really glad that there are people who enjoy these quest grinder theme parks, because it's bringing people into the medium and expanding the overall possible quality of these games, but the unfortunate truth is that this exposure has also set us back ten years. UO was my favorite game of all time, and certainly not my first. People like to claim that nostalgia is what paints the picture so gloriously in my mind's eye, but the truth of the matter is that the game was simply superior to what the current trend of releases brings to the table, and if anyone's looking for deep, meaningful experiences in anything that's been released in the past five years, I'd say MMO's are the wrong place to be searching (aside from the very rare, very few gems).

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318

    One of the reasons the community is worse than its ever been is because of f2p. Like it or not, its the truth. f2p attracts the worst type of people. Those that don't care how they behave because they can just go make a new account to harass people with, after all, they aren't paying any  money for the game. 

    This f2p trend disgusts me.

  • shozikushoziku Member UncommonPosts: 95

    damn that was accurate.  I've played both old and new and yes, it is completely accurate.  the immersion of being thrown to the wolves made the world seem alive and not just the sterile atmosphere that todays mmo's provide.  to run dungeons in WoW, you follow the same formula and directions that the 12 million people before you did. and don't vary it because it will probably not work.  the old games had enough bugs/problems/players that made the encounters somewhat random each time, even though they were more primitive.

    I hated the grind EQ had, but if you made a friend there you had a friend for life.  In WoW, friends come and go, and they don't care anyway since you just filled their need for a short time and you're gone and probably forgotten.

  • shozikushoziku Member UncommonPosts: 95

    one more great point I wanted to also provide. in todays mmo's the impersonalization of the game has caused many players to take other players for granted.  They treat other players like NPC's.  In the older games, the idea of playing online with real people was still pretty cool and innovative.  You just knew every person was real, and treated them such.  In today's game, I get slammed with requests to "help me with this, and then that".  It's like they don't realize that I'm busy playing a game... the same damn one they are.  And usually if you don't help, it's ok, they move onto the next guy to help without getting bitter about it.  It's game mechanics and kids have learned to use it  (other people) just like any other tool.

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