"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
Why hate improved storytelling via questing in MMO's, if it isn't because you think quest gameplay is perfect as it is in current MMO's?
Because is it really inproved? instead of a wall of text to fetch 10 rat tails you now get a novel worth of speech for 20 minutes to tell you to get 10 rat tails?
in the end whats the difference? the end goal is the same you get 10 rat tails and lost 20 minutes of cool gameplay to listen to someone rambling on about stuff to do a quest that takes 3 minutes to finish.
After 3 quests im sure 80% of the people will press ESC to skip the dialog just as they click away text. people want to play the game not read/listen to a novel worths of text.
I talked with a dev about that while at PAX, those are actually quest anyone can do not Class story line quest. Thats an improvement.
Why hate improved storytelling via questing in MMO's, if it isn't because you think quest gameplay is perfect as it is in current MMO's?
Because is it really inproved? instead of a wall of text to fetch 10 rat tails you now get a novel worth of speech for 20 minutes to tell you to get 10 rat tails?
in the end whats the difference? the end goal is the same you get 10 rat tails and lost 20 minutes of cool gameplay to listen to someone rambling on about stuff to do a quest that takes 3 minutes to finish.
After 3 quests im sure 80% of the people will press ESC to skip the dialog just as they click away text. people want to play the game not read/listen to a novel worths of text.
I talked with a dev about that while at PAX, those are actually quest anyone can do not Class story line quest. Thats an improvement.
On top of that, we've seen screenshots of choices that you can make to decline quests, or talk your way out of certain quests, another improvement. If you don't like killing 10 rats - maybe you can flirt your way out of it, or convince the quest giver that your time may be better spent elsewhere? They aren't limiting choice in quests, they are actually giving you choices.
Because is it really inproved? instead of a wall of text to fetch 10 rat tails you now get a novel worth of speech for 20 minutes to tell you to get 10 rat tails?
in the end whats the difference? the end goal is the same you get 10 rat tails and lost 20 minutes of cool gameplay to listen to someone rambling on about stuff to do a quest that takes 3 minutes to finish.
After 3 quests im sure 80% of the people will press ESC to skip the dialog just as they click away text. people want to play the game not read/listen to a novel worths of text.
Well, everyone is different of course and I'm certain that there'll be always be people that don't care one bit for any story and that will always just skip quest text, quests for them merely being something to reach level cap fastest.
But here are some reports from playtesters from the latest conventions that had a different experience and had something different to say about how the story-enhanced quests felt when playing the demos.
As cliché as it is the feature that really made the game standout from WoW was... yes...story. You still have the standard MMO go and kill X of Y. But I found that WoW had a total random nonsense story which covered 1 page and was about as interesting to look at as a turd. The quality voice over and a short to the point background story to even a mundane quest at least makes it feel more real and immersive. But what supported this even more is the fact that you have to make conversation choices. And even though these side quests might not have the most unique choices (yes ill help cause im nice, yes ill help but what do i get out of it, f- you ill just kill you) at least you got to spin the story your way and it made it feel like it was your character's game and not just a static game that's exactly the same for everyone. It made it feel less like a chore and much more a fun part of the game you were going through.
I know there have been some complaints on the official forums about the running animations, but I am going to have to say that this does not apply to animation as a whole. The body language of the characters is superb. I am going to assume the team is still working on perfecting the facial expressions, but that aside, the hand gestures and the way the rest of body shifted with speech really captured the emotion of the character. I particularly noticed this in the smuggler. Just because of the way my smuggler carried herself, the roleplayer in me couldn't help but be confident and sarcastic. Originally, I had not planned on playing a smuggler, but after PAX, I may have changed my mind.
I know BioWare really shouldn't score points for this any more, but I have to mention the dialogue. I was stunned. The VO work was, of course, incredible, but so were the dialogue choices. Traditionally, BioWare games made it completely obvious that you were to choose one phrase to be good or choose another to be bad. I noticed, especially with the inquisitor dialogue, that it was not exactly that black and white. I loved it. I heard Daniel Erickson say in the booth that the team is really looking to find that gray path for the characters, which is a new thing for BioWare. If the inquisitor's dialogue is any indication of this, then the devs are definitely off in the right direction.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Honestly I always thought the storyline element was missing from existing MMOs. I am thrilled that Bioware is bringing their strength as a single-player RPG developer into this game.
Nothing is more boring than grinding mobs FOR NO REASON other than to level up your character. Games that utilize that model are totally out of date. Even grinding quests is more interesting becuase it at least sometimes requires you to stop and think about what you're doing or where you're going. I have never understood this resistance to story elements in an MMO. It really makes no sense to me at all...
Mob grinding as it is/was in SWG or really any other sandbox is mind-numbingly boring...
You're missing the point. Disliking story in an mmo isn't because you like the current questing system. Its more about players who see mmo's as a world to play in. The more the game defines for you who your char is, what your char is doing, the less fun it is because the single predominant feature of mmo's is the other players. mmo's should focus on building community, not playing the game for us.
In standalone games, I want story. In mmo's I want community.
Rather than a world to play in, I'd rather have a world that feels pretty real (in congruence with a good IP of course). I dislike sandboxes because they are just something for people to play in and as such they aren't very immersive to me. TOR looks good because the NPCs are more than cardboard cutouts and you don't get forced to do things in a stupid manner (like questing inevitably leads to). All this makes the world alive and something you interact with, and with a community, it is one you and your friends together can interact with. Obviously this needs to be designed to be fun (so in a real sense we all want something to play in, of course). Players alone just aren't good at making a world like this.
I can understand how someone would want as much as possible made and run by players, but I hope you can understand how for people who primarily want a really believable world that is not what we want.
You say you dislike sandboxes but which ones have you played if you don't mind me asking?
none.
he has played CoH, FFXI and WoW.
I've played other MMOs, those are just some of the more "recent" ones I played for any length of time. I honestly can't get that into sandboxes like EvE or the like. I want a game I can get into immediately and immerse myself in immediately and just as quickly exit when I am done. I want to be able to play a game without requiring massive amounts of time to coordinate or plan things out and the ability to leave or get back into a game with relatively little work. Nor do I like grinding, either kills, crafting, or gathering. Sandboxes simply don't do any of this in my experience. Sure, I don't have the most extensive experience with Sandboxes, but you can hardly blame me when a free trial is unable to maintain my interest. They aren't what I look for in an MMO.
I'm surprised you are so shocked that people who don't like Sandboxes exist. I thought it would be a rather obvious truth given the relative difficulty sandboxes have in succeeding compared to themeparks. I find this doubly ironic because rather than even attempt to refute the reasons I stated for not wanting a sandbox, you instead decide to attack me.
Note, this doesn't mean I dislike all possible sandbox-like elements, but rather that I dislike pure sandbox games. I want a game with an immense amount of work put into NPCs and story -- I like how TOR is looking because I also want real choices in how I respond/react to that story.
Don't be surprised, this forum has a substantial number of people who:
A) Think that all MMO's should be sandboxes, and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot/retarded
Any game associated with Star Wars should be some version of Galaxies 2, with everything exactly as it was before the NGE, because the world owes them or something. They also think in said game it should take five weeks to make a moisture collector, or any other randomly boring item, because that's what proper MMO players do.
It's the reason why this game gets a rough ride here and something like GW2 doesn't, because sweet little Arenanet couldn't possibly hurt them.
Why hate improved storytelling via questing in MMO's, if it isn't because you think quest gameplay is perfect as it is in current MMO's?
Because is it really inproved? instead of a wall of text to fetch 10 rat tails you now get a novel worth of speech for 20 minutes to tell you to get 10 rat tails?
in the end whats the difference? the end goal is the same you get 10 rat tails and lost 20 minutes of cool gameplay to listen to someone rambling on about stuff to do a quest that takes 3 minutes to finish.
After 3 quests im sure 80% of the people will press ESC to skip the dialog just as they click away text. people want to play the game not read/listen to a novel worths of text.
Do you even have a clue as to how the questing in this game is being designed? They give you choices that shape how the rest of the questing and storyline progresses.
To use your example, an NPC offers you an opportunity to kill 10 rats and you say 'Sure, rat killing is my thing' and progress down one branch of the storyline. Option two you say 'Kill them and then what do I get in return?' That response adjusts how this NPC (and likely many others as well) will respond to you, and you can easily be working a different storyline. Option three you say 'I absolutely will not kill rats, find me something more meaningful to do with my time or don't bother me again!' and again you're spinning a new storyline. Last option could be '10 rats? How about I start with rat number 1: you!' and again, you've branched down another path.
Each subsequent quest you get will be determined by how you've responded and if you did or didn't complete the questline offered. Now, multiply that by the myriad of possibilities you could play off and it's one hell of a lot more immersive than killing 10 rats and bumping your experience up 3%.
It's an RPG as WELL as an MMO. They're trying to get you to feel like you're a part of the story, not just some joker killing 10 rats to finally push level 80. THAT's the difference.
If you find killing rats after hitting the esc button to back out of quest texting 'cool gameplay' (because that's what you'd be doing, regardless) then definitely stick with that sort of game. If you enjoy the chance to see a progressive storyline, why not give this one a try?
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the "story haters" are just skeptical that a compelling story will not be in the game. Instead we will get a bunch of pointless drivel on why we have to collect 10 rat feet. Then once we leave the area to continue to the next the story resets to more boring drivel on collecting 10 boar snouts.
I don't see how that is a change in the current MMOs.
To use your example, an NPC offers you an opportunity to kill 10 rats and you say 'Sure, rat killing is my thing' and progress down one branch of the storyline. Option two you say 'Kill them and then what do I get in return?' That response adjusts how this NPC (and likely many others as well) will respond to you, and you can easily be working a different storyline. Option three you say 'I absolutely will not kill rats, find me something more meaningful to do with my time or don't bother me again!' and again you're spinning a new storyline. Last option could be '10 rats? How about I start with rat number 1: you!' and again, you've branched down another path.
Dusnt take away that you have to listen to a novels worth of speech for a quest that you in your example can even skip.
and the tails is just an example ofcourse, choise or not, in the end is the questing system a big change in TOR? that was the question. Guild Wars 2 for instance got rid of quests altogether, now that imo is a change not 1 quest that can split in 2 or 3 depands on the number of choises. i still walk to a questgiver get a quest choose an option and im back at the start having the same old quests like in all other mmo's.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the "story haters" are just skeptical that a compelling story will not be in the game. Instead we will get a bunch of pointless drivel on why we have to collect 10 rat feet. Then once we leave the area to continue to the next the story resets to more boring drivel on collecting 10 boar snouts.
I don't see how that is a change in the current MMOs.
Ever played Bioware's games? They are full of quality storylines - ones that show both imagination and creativity in how they are developed and presented.
Sure, some parts of the game are likely to feel like 'fillers', as in fill in exp blank spots to get you to the level you need to be for the next big bite of the storyline. It's hard to find ANY MMO that keeps you gripped on what's going on 100% of the time. Still, with Bioware at the helm i sincerely doubt we're going to be seeing 'kill 10 of xxx...' followed by 'kill 20 of yyy..'. They've clearly stated that's what they're trying to avoid.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
To use your example, an NPC offers you an opportunity to kill 10 rats and you say 'Sure, rat killing is my thing' and progress down one branch of the storyline. Option two you say 'Kill them and then what do I get in return?' That response adjusts how this NPC (and likely many others as well) will respond to you, and you can easily be working a different storyline. Option three you say 'I absolutely will not kill rats, find me something more meaningful to do with my time or don't bother me again!' and again you're spinning a new storyline. Last option could be '10 rats? How about I start with rat number 1: you!' and again, you've branched down another path.
Dusnt take away that you have to listen to a novels worth of speech for a quest that you in your example can even skip.
and the tails is just an example ofcourse, choise or not, in the end is the questing system a big change in TOR? that was the question. Guild Wars 2 for instance got rid of quests altogether, now that imo is a change not 1 quest that can split in 2 or 3 depands on the number of choises. i still walk to a questgiver get a quest choose an option and im back at the start having the same old quests like in all other mmo's.
Again you miss the point: This is an RPG within an MMO. You have a character and you work to develop that character. Just killing mobs to gain experience, in-game items and money is pretty much EVERY cookie-cutter MMO out there. They're trying to be different.
You also fail to grasp the fact that the progression in the storyline leads to different quest offerings, interactions with NPC's and faction responses to your character. You won't kill ten rats then go back to the same storyline. You'll progress down a different one. Your choices will shape your game experience. It won't go be going back to square one once you've completed a task. They're trying to make it immersive, not repetitive.
Also, if you don't have time to give a damn about the storyline why are you looking at this game at all? Bioware's pretty set on their design choices.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
and the tails is just an example ofcourse, choise or not, in the end is the questing system a big change in TOR? that was the question. Guild Wars 2 for instance got rid of quests altogether, now that imo is a change not 1 quest that can split in 2 or 3 depands on the number of choises. i still walk to a questgiver get a quest choose an option and im back at the start having the same old quests like in all other mmo's.
It's not the same old quests.
Current MMO quests:
- only 1 decision choice, accept the quest (or abandon the quest)
- presentation by wall of quest text
- quests the same for everyone
- no consequences of actions, no impact upon the larger world
GW2 Dynamic Event:
- persistent impact upon world
- your actions have consequences
- some events are linked in a chain that have several branches
- dynamic events are an upgrade of Public Quests (see WAR)
GW2 Personal Story:
- Personal Story Quests are personalised via background and decisions
- actions have lasting consequences
- cutscene presentation
SW:TOR quests:
- presentation by VO and dialogue options
- multiple decision options per quest, not only accept/not accept
- decisions have lasting consequences and effect on follow up quests
- quests are personalised by fully unique Class quest lines and decisions you make
- team interaction + team influence in group quests
- multiple different outcomes and event paths in dungeons (branching event lines)
You may like one type of change and innovation more than another type of change, but fact is that both SW:TOR and GW2 will have completely revamped quest gameplay mechanics.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I dont hate storylines i hate limitations
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
I talked with a dev about that while at PAX, those are actually quest anyone can do not Class story line quest. Thats an improvement.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
On top of that, we've seen screenshots of choices that you can make to decline quests, or talk your way out of certain quests, another improvement. If you don't like killing 10 rats - maybe you can flirt your way out of it, or convince the quest giver that your time may be better spent elsewhere? They aren't limiting choice in quests, they are actually giving you choices.
Well, everyone is different of course and I'm certain that there'll be always be people that don't care one bit for any story and that will always just skip quest text, quests for them merely being something to reach level cap fastest.
But here are some reports from playtesters from the latest conventions that had a different experience and had something different to say about how the story-enhanced quests felt when playing the demos.
From a Gamescom demo playtester:
As cliché as it is the feature that really made the game standout from WoW was... yes... story. You still have the standard MMO go and kill X of Y. But I found that WoW had a total random nonsense story which covered 1 page and was about as interesting to look at as a turd. The quality voice over and a short to the point background story to even a mundane quest at least makes it feel more real and immersive. But what supported this even more is the fact that you have to make conversation choices. And even though these side quests might not have the most unique choices (yes ill help cause im nice, yes ill help but what do i get out of it, f- you ill just kill you) at least you got to spin the story your way and it made it feel like it was your character's game and not just a static game that's exactly the same for everyone. It made it feel less like a chore and much more a fun part of the game you were going through.
And from a Massively.com reporter:
I know there have been some complaints on the official forums about the running animations, but I am going to have to say that this does not apply to animation as a whole. The body language of the characters is superb. I am going to assume the team is still working on perfecting the facial expressions, but that aside, the hand gestures and the way the rest of body shifted with speech really captured the emotion of the character. I particularly noticed this in the smuggler. Just because of the way my smuggler carried herself, the roleplayer in me couldn't help but be confident and sarcastic. Originally, I had not planned on playing a smuggler, but after PAX, I may have changed my mind.
I know BioWare really shouldn't score points for this any more, but I have to mention the dialogue. I was stunned. The VO work was, of course, incredible, but so were the dialogue choices. Traditionally, BioWare games made it completely obvious that you were to choose one phrase to be good or choose another to be bad. I noticed, especially with the inquisitor dialogue, that it was not exactly that black and white. I loved it. I heard Daniel Erickson say in the booth that the team is really looking to find that gray path for the characters, which is a new thing for BioWare. If the inquisitor's dialogue is any indication of this, then the devs are definitely off in the right direction.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Honestly I always thought the storyline element was missing from existing MMOs. I am thrilled that Bioware is bringing their strength as a single-player RPG developer into this game.
Nothing is more boring than grinding mobs FOR NO REASON other than to level up your character. Games that utilize that model are totally out of date. Even grinding quests is more interesting becuase it at least sometimes requires you to stop and think about what you're doing or where you're going. I have never understood this resistance to story elements in an MMO. It really makes no sense to me at all...
Mob grinding as it is/was in SWG or really any other sandbox is mind-numbingly boring...
Don't be surprised, this forum has a substantial number of people who:
A) Think that all MMO's should be sandboxes, and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot/retarded
It's the reason why this game gets a rough ride here and something like GW2 doesn't, because sweet little Arenanet couldn't possibly hurt them.
Do you even have a clue as to how the questing in this game is being designed? They give you choices that shape how the rest of the questing and storyline progresses.
To use your example, an NPC offers you an opportunity to kill 10 rats and you say 'Sure, rat killing is my thing' and progress down one branch of the storyline. Option two you say 'Kill them and then what do I get in return?' That response adjusts how this NPC (and likely many others as well) will respond to you, and you can easily be working a different storyline. Option three you say 'I absolutely will not kill rats, find me something more meaningful to do with my time or don't bother me again!' and again you're spinning a new storyline. Last option could be '10 rats? How about I start with rat number 1: you!' and again, you've branched down another path.
Each subsequent quest you get will be determined by how you've responded and if you did or didn't complete the questline offered. Now, multiply that by the myriad of possibilities you could play off and it's one hell of a lot more immersive than killing 10 rats and bumping your experience up 3%.
It's an RPG as WELL as an MMO. They're trying to get you to feel like you're a part of the story, not just some joker killing 10 rats to finally push level 80. THAT's the difference.
If you find killing rats after hitting the esc button to back out of quest texting 'cool gameplay' (because that's what you'd be doing, regardless) then definitely stick with that sort of game. If you enjoy the chance to see a progressive storyline, why not give this one a try?
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the "story haters" are just skeptical that a compelling story will not be in the game. Instead we will get a bunch of pointless drivel on why we have to collect 10 rat feet. Then once we leave the area to continue to the next the story resets to more boring drivel on collecting 10 boar snouts.
I don't see how that is a change in the current MMOs.
Dusnt take away that you have to listen to a novels worth of speech for a quest that you in your example can even skip.
and the tails is just an example ofcourse, choise or not, in the end is the questing system a big change in TOR? that was the question. Guild Wars 2 for instance got rid of quests altogether, now that imo is a change not 1 quest that can split in 2 or 3 depands on the number of choises. i still walk to a questgiver get a quest choose an option and im back at the start having the same old quests like in all other mmo's.
Ever played Bioware's games? They are full of quality storylines - ones that show both imagination and creativity in how they are developed and presented.
Sure, some parts of the game are likely to feel like 'fillers', as in fill in exp blank spots to get you to the level you need to be for the next big bite of the storyline. It's hard to find ANY MMO that keeps you gripped on what's going on 100% of the time. Still, with Bioware at the helm i sincerely doubt we're going to be seeing 'kill 10 of xxx...' followed by 'kill 20 of yyy..'. They've clearly stated that's what they're trying to avoid.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
Again you miss the point: This is an RPG within an MMO. You have a character and you work to develop that character. Just killing mobs to gain experience, in-game items and money is pretty much EVERY cookie-cutter MMO out there. They're trying to be different.
You also fail to grasp the fact that the progression in the storyline leads to different quest offerings, interactions with NPC's and faction responses to your character. You won't kill ten rats then go back to the same storyline. You'll progress down a different one. Your choices will shape your game experience. It won't go be going back to square one once you've completed a task. They're trying to make it immersive, not repetitive.
Also, if you don't have time to give a damn about the storyline why are you looking at this game at all? Bioware's pretty set on their design choices.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
It's not the same old quests.
Current MMO quests:
- only 1 decision choice, accept the quest (or abandon the quest)
- presentation by wall of quest text
- quests the same for everyone
- no consequences of actions, no impact upon the larger world
GW2 Dynamic Event:
- persistent impact upon world
- your actions have consequences
- some events are linked in a chain that have several branches
- dynamic events are an upgrade of Public Quests (see WAR)
GW2 Personal Story:
- Personal Story Quests are personalised via background and decisions
- actions have lasting consequences
- cutscene presentation
SW:TOR quests:
- presentation by VO and dialogue options
- multiple decision options per quest, not only accept/not accept
- decisions have lasting consequences and effect on follow up quests
- quests are personalised by fully unique Class quest lines and decisions you make
- team interaction + team influence in group quests
- multiple different outcomes and event paths in dungeons (branching event lines)
You may like one type of change and innovation more than another type of change, but fact is that both SW:TOR and GW2 will have completely revamped quest gameplay mechanics.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."