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Controls, how much of the complaints is relevant and how much is laziness and lack of adaptibility o
MMO.Maverick
Member CommonPosts: 7,619
I have a theory.
Back when I played EQ, I had to get used to a lot of new, different things regarding controls and gameplay within a MMO, it wasn't as easy as it is with themepark MMO's these days. The same applied to RTS games or FPS games the first times I started playing them, or other games with different controls and gameplay mechanics, it took some time to familiarise with them and to adapt to them.
A large part of the generation that was introduced into MMO gaming in the post-WoW era - with easy-mode gameplay as in WoW, Lotro and such - lacks those adaptive skills.
That's why you see so many complaints about the MMO's after WoW, where a lot of complaints and whining are about how a MMO misses or differs in features that WoW has. A lot of the MMO gamers are like some American tourists who when on holidays abroad still go to a McDonald's and Pizza Hut and do merely the guided tour excursions, instead of really getting to know the local population, culture and local cuisine.
UO, EQ, DAoC, FFXI, CoH and other pre-2004 definitely had a lot more flaws when they launched, but there was a lot less whining, and people playing them had a blast enjoying those games.
At the moment, I'm merely curious about FFXIV. I've looked at the flaws and complaints people posted and found most of them to be either whining or trivial: maybe it really is a problem for MMO gamers in the pampered post-2005 themepark era, but it's not something I'm concerned with. I've been MMO gaming longer and have had to adapt farther to play and enjoy several MMO's.
I'm aware that the controls setup has the primary focus for consoles, and that FFXIV is still beta.
What I would like to know is the following:
- after getting used to the controls, how does FFXIV actually play on them? What are the most stringent issues with them?
- how do the FFXIV controls compare to the FFXI ones?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
The game plays okay with the controls. The big thing, even when you're used to it, is spamming an attack ability that seems to have no cooldown when you have enough stamina to use it and nothing happening for a random interval of time. 2.1 seconds between one of the same attack and another. 2.8. 1.7. How does it work and why? It's annoying because it spams an error sound if you spam. But you pretty much have to.
That and interface lag with everything. It has been patched up a bit, but... Step A to step B still likes to curve around to step M as a detour and accepted options take a long time to activate or happen.
I'd also like to add that it's not really a lack of adaptability when it comes to MMO gamers.. it's a lack of willingless to devolve. If the system was innovative rather than just pointlessly annoying then sure, there'd still be complainers, but there would be just as many individuals who preferred the new system and could use it to its optimal efficiency better than previous systems. It seems that you should either stick with something CLOSE to conventions or try something MORE intuitive rather than less. All my opinion of course, including my experience. Some may believe that this new system is innovative. I simply disagree.
Haven't played FFXI so I can't help you there though I have seen many a post where FFXI players or former players either think the system is okay or backwards, far fewer who actually support it and say that it's an improvement or that they like it. I have no proof of this so grain of salt or trust.
Thanks.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
Wow...the elitist, veteran who's toughness and resilience are only outdone by his/her ridiculous thoughts that gamers should shut up and sit down and enjoy a game even if it's not enjoyable. That's very Castro of you
It's pretty sad that SE has been told time and time and time and time again that their UI, targetting and lag in between menus needs fixin (way back in 1rst beta) and still nothing has been done about it. This isnt as easy as adapting to a new way of doing things, it's regressing back to barbaric baby steps (think Dragon Warrior when you had to pull up a menu to go up stairs, hit stairs and then hit yes to climb). I hope they fix this, but ya never know....I think SE knows how to tell a great story, but that's about it....
Oh, you can whine, complain, nag, rant all you want, mate, I mean go wild all you like
A lot of the complaints and whining have the root cause of MMO gamers not wanting to stray away too far from the themepark features they're familiar with or don't want to adapt to something different; those complaints and whines are irrelevant to me personally.
I don't think the system is innovative, it's a step back; it doesn't matter to me though when it only takes a few hours to get into it and you can play the game adequately with them.
Lag is different, it's a serious hindrance: is there news that this will improve, has it already improved in the last few months?
Thanks for the advice and for the fair opinion
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
People don't want to adapt, that's it. Even though the controls are extremely similar to the ones in FFXI, the market have changed a lot since the release of FFXI. It doesn't matter if the game is a niche game like this here FFXIV, people want to be served with a game that suits them, no matter what. If the game doesn't do just that, well.. take a look on the boards and you get the picture.
Personally I don't see the huge problem, obviously there's some minor issues with UI lag right now and that might or might not be due to the beta status of the game. The mouse lag issue have already been corrected by a series of third party programs, so the chances of there being solutions to that at release are pretty high.
Most of all though, people are upset over that Square Enix "limits" their enjoyment of a potential game by crippling them with the controls that have worked for the company in the past.
I've been playing games since the Vic 20, Atari 2600, Colecovision days. I've played every major and many not so major MMO since UO, EQ, etc. I've learned countless control schemes over the years.
Each new game I've played has tried to improve on games that came before. Some games tried to introduce new, unique features. All (or nearly) have tried to improve. Innovate. They strive to create intuitive interfaces. They strive to give the player the power to easily perform common actions. They strive to reduce redundancy of actions. To take away needless steps. To provide short-cuts.
Good developers attempt to make the interface (whether it's a game, a business tool, or whatever) in such a way that you can actually forget about the interface and spend more time doing what the core is. In MMOs the core is being immersed in the environment, in the story, in the activities.
FFXIV seems to have taken many steps back. Instead of trying to improve on any powerful, intuitive tools created over the years they seem to have added extra steps. Instead of making it easy for the user to quickly do things they seem to have done their best to force the user to exit their world to deal with menus before getting back into the world.
This isn't about user laziness. This isn't about the inability to adapt. This isn't about the intelligence of users. This isn't about users not wanting a complex game.
I love complex games. I get bored of simple 1, 2, 3 mashing. I love options.
FFXIV's interface isn't complex. It's pretty simple in fact. It's just full of extra useless steps. It offers very little options. It feels as though FFXIV gives you one way to do things and that's it. Whereas every other game gives you 2 or 3 ways to do something and on top of that lets you customize within those 2 or 3 ways.
In most games I can change the way I play depending on my situation. If I'm sitting at my gaming rig and am focusing on the game I can play one way. If I'm on the couch on my laptop I can play another way. If my laptop is on the stool while I'm dividing my attention on other things I can play yet another way. With FFXIV that's not as easily done if at all.
The game, the world, the story seems nice. The interface just seems like it took 3 or 4 steps back in the evolution of human/machine interaction though.
A few things really could be more intuitive. I am not complaining. I for one, am really loving the game more each time I play. I mean fishing...good gosh! It's addicting as all heck even when you don't catch stuff!
One of the little things I noticed yesterday during multiple trips to the vendor (bait for fishing of course!) was the inability to buy something and then walk away from the vendor without multiple windows to close (Done, Exit etc) . I bought my worms, larva etc and now I should be able to walk away...whoops. Not yet. Menu, menu, menu..okay now go fish.
Not a game breaker or even a game bender. Just little 'normal' actions that are too complex and as far as I can tell would have no difference on the social or economic systems.
Oh well. Back to fishing! Tally Ho!
The jap devs are lazy, for not having a vertical axys ingame to allow jumping, they are the lazy ones that dont adapt to the modern market of mmorpgs...why are the forums flooded with people bashing the game? are they all haters with nothing to do? dont think so...where there is smoke there is fire..and FF14 is just burning...
I've played the game with a 360 controller for about a week. I may or may not it setup incorrectly, but out of combat I hever have an issue with its setup. My D-pad is set to select target.
In combat, I actually have to grab my mouse to target. In active mode the Dpad switches to skill selection control. To not use the mouse, i'd have to exit combat/active mode, select the target, then reenter combat.
I also have a macro setup to target nearest npc...which the game somehow doesnt seem to understand the concept of nearest.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
I'll tell you what. I'm a game vet, I've played some very strange games, on consoles and computers (Atari, Amiga, Commodore, PC...), since the 80's. Basically my approach with any gameplay is that, "if you can do it, I can do it". So I usually try harder if I fail to play well at first.
With FF XIV, I initially used a controller as most people; a few days ago with the improvement of the UI lag I tried m/k again. Long story short: I managed to play in any configuration (controller, m/k, keyboard only).
But is it enjoyable? Well... no. It could have been in 2000, clearly not today after having tested what-many MMOs and games altogether, even the worst (which gives me low reference points). I mean... sure you feel good when you launch a spell... because it's been such a pain to reach that point (way too many intermediary states, random failures not well explained, UI giving false information, lag of the server-side...) If you just tried to deal with 50 items with your retainer, or craft, say, 20 items, then you'll know what is a "painful timesink" in a MMO.
Is FF XIV "fun" to play, as I found it enjoyable and psychologically rewarding to play FF V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII, even XIII? (well, that latter less than others, that's for sure)
No. It's tedious, it seems that Square has added as many obstacles and unnecessary steps as they could imagine, to make it harder for the player. Only to me, struggling with controls and interface isn't "harder", it's not some hardcore feature I long for; no, to me, it's just "worse". Worse than what? Than any FF, but than XI too, an 8 years old game. Which is the height of ridiculousness.
Entering combat, using spells is all but fluent, let alone intuitive. It's a pain to deal with target change when it's locked or when you lose it for some reason. Using the keyboard 1-9 keys to launch spells could be fine, if it wasn't such a pain to reach lines 2 and 3. And you can't remap those keys so far... pfff it's not because of "beta", it's just a total lack of insight. Buying/selling items to NPCs take forever. The menus are sluggish--if you scroll too fast, your list just jump to the other end or goes back to the beginning.
Believe me, I've played games with absolutely ridiculously bad or unintuitive controls. FF XIV is certainly well-placed in my black list on this regard, and that's no small feat in my book. It's not only bad, it's slow, which is infuriating at times, frustrating always. Even before I log in, I feel apprehensive, knowing that I'm gonna have to spend 10 minutes selling or giving 60+ items to my retainer, should I have not done it before my last log out. That's bad, when in-game problems tend to reach out of the game itself and pursue the gamer everytime he thinks about playing.
Which is why I believe the gameplay of FF XIV can be called "a gamebreaker" in the dev slang.
SE really needs to re-take game design 101.
That part right there. Every program you use, whether it be a game or a word processor, has gotten EASIER to use over the years.
course, I could be just a lazy wow baby...
It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.
100% agreed.
That sums it up perfectly for me.
Steam: Neph
Well thanks this is a unique new spin... The problem isn't with the game but with the players...
haha
---
Ethion
Sorry, if you can't make a mouse/keyboard interface for a windows pc game in 2010 that's intuitive and comfortable, you screwed up.
I do things in MMO, or any other game, for two reasons
a) It's fun
b) It's required to have fun
Playing a minigame with the controls certainly isn't fun, and I'm sure the devs don't hold any illusion that the controls would be fun either. Controls are the required means to control the character and have fun, and WoW has set the standard for how much controlling is required for MMORPG. Because I'm not able to control my character with as little effort as I can do it in WoW, even tough I'm not doing any more actions with nor making any more complicated choises about what to do with my character, FF XIV has failed to meet that standard.
I might be able to adapt and tolerate it if I think the game is otherwise fun enough. But I'm going to complain because from my point of view the game controls are a failure.
I think the fundamental of good design is any medium is you don't notice it's there. That doesn't mean you can't see it, but that it is unobtrusive to the task.
I think the next MMO company should hire someone like Apple to design it's interface.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
I don't think its lazy for MMO gamers to expect controls to be standardized. I'm sure when automobiles first came out they had all sorts of varying control layouts but quickly they became standardized so that today, other than putting the steering wheel on the "wrong" side you won't find much variety world wide.
In fact, when personal computers first became popular back in the 80's there were some variants that again quickly standardized to pretty much two main interfaces (mice, keyboards, for PC, with MAC's being the "wrong" side)
Same with operating systems, didn't take long at all for the world to standardized on Windows, its just human nature to do so.
Same with MMORPG's, if the interface/UI that WOW and many other games are using is actually "optimal" who's to say most, if not all games shouldn't provide it? (at least as an optional interface)
I play EVE which uses an non-standard interface, but I recently started the FE trial and appreciated the fact that I'm pretty much able to leap into it with little difficulty since it follows the "standard".
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@OP, I find the controls, with a controller, to be almost exactly like FFXI. In fact, I set up my Logitech Rumblepad 2 almost exactly the same as I had it in FFXI and it works fine. I think the main complaints are from people who want to play with a keyboard and mouse. I haven't tried keyboard and mouse because I like being able to lean back away from my desk and play without being hunched over my keyboard. One of the main reasons I liked FFXI was because I could use a controller. If you really want to play the game I would suggest you use a controller. Like FFXI, it seems SE really built the game around playing it with a controller.
The damage control trying to be done by super fans is ridiculous and annoying. If anything, you should be pushing Square to actually fix problems with the game, but instead you just defend everything. Great idea.
As far the emote quest (hopefully its the LL one and not the Gridania one) you can just /laugh /wave /cry etc
It's a lot faster. But yeah...
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
I have to agree with others here and say it's not that it's got a different control scheme for mouse/keyboard it's that it's not a good control scheme period.It's not liek the controls are different for good reasons other thna SE being too lazy to make an optimal control scheme for mouse/keyboard and has just tied one to it's gamepad contorl scheme and badly.
Gamers adapt to different control layouts for different genres all the time,they adapt when new genres are invented or new control layouts are created to accomodate new ideas and gamepaly mechanics ithat didn't exis tin the genre in quesiton at the time.All gamers expect is that the controls be fluid and not get in the way of palying the actual game.Nothing in this paragraph applies to the FFXIV control scheme.
Seriously if this game was being made by someone other than SE and wasn't titled Final Fantasy but was a new IP I very much doubt there would be anybody defeding the control scheme and blaming the palyers.
When I first loaded up the beta I was really put off by the UI and controls (mouse and keyboard). Then my buddy convinced me to try out the controller. It was amazing how much better the game played with one. It was actually quite enjoyable.
I think it is a little bit of both.
On one hand does more than a few MMO players want mechanics and GUI that are made in a certain way, and that is kinda sad because the GUI have changed little in a long time now and there must be better ways to control your avatar.
On the other hand is having controls that sometimes lag annoying, and controls made for PS3 might not be ultimate on a PC.