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Psychology of a Story hater: do they really like the quest system in current MMO's that much?

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Comments

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68

    I'm focusing specificially on the idea the the greater the role that dev defined, mandatory, cut-scene and npc driven storylines play in an MMO, the less of a role community plays. Please note i'm talking about gradients not absolutes. I'm not saying all story is bad. I'm noting that the pendulum (imo) is swinging too far towards storyline to the detriment of community building.

    You haven't really demonstrated how this hurts the community.

    You can brings friends along for class stories.  Open world quests have stories too and there's a group mechanics that lets people make decisions together -- that builds community.

    Where exactly is the harm coming from here really?

    When the mmo determines who your char is, what his backstory is, what his voice sounds like, provides npc's to fulfill the roles other players may have filled, etc... It discourages the kind of players from playing the game who build community.  Clearly you don't agree, and that's fine, its not an absolute, but trust me, you want the kind of people who do feel that way in an MMO because they provide depth, width and color to the community that the dev's for obvious reasons can't provide.

    You can choose from a variety of backstories from what I saw.

    You never played a P&P game where the GM handed out characters?  (Not my favorite way to play, but I don't mind it if I get a say in some aspects of the character).  Beyond that, the companions don't replace anyone, they are just a tool to enable you to actually play with your friends without telling them to reroll their characters.

    Frankly, I enjoying RP and I don't really get what you are talking about.  I can accept that some people can be very finicky about such things, but such people are hardly a necessity as they are but a subset (and a small one) of community builders.  You're talking about some fairly superficial stuff overall.  You pick a vague background and YOU decide how your character acts.  There's a tremendous amount of freedom there.

    lol no, never played with pre-made pnp chars. Never would. The fact that that would be acceptable to you stands as a stark demarcation between whats acceptable to each of us.

    Anyway, you're talking specifically about TOR. I'm taking generally. We really won't know what TOR will be like til launch. For all I know TOR will be the greatest gift to community ever. I was responding to the OP's equating not liking story with liking current questing methods.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    When the mmo determines who your char is, what his backstory is, what his voice sounds like, provides npc's to fulfill the roles other players may have filled, etc... It discourages the kind of players from playing the game who build community.  Clearly you don't agree, and that's fine, its not an absolute, but trust me, you want the kind of people who do feel that way in an MMO because they provide depth, width and color to the community that the dev's for obvious reasons can't provide.

    I agree (and NWN from Bioware is still the best game made in my opinion so I am not a Bioware hater).

    But I think GW2 is on o something, as long as you can select to play a personal story or ignore it things are fine. Like PvP, dungeons or open world PvE? Well just do that instead then, no punishment, just play as you want.

    It still splits up the community but you really can't get rid of solo players and there really isn't any reason for that either. 

    All good games provides the opportunity for different playstyles, and saying one is better than the others is not really fair. 

    But it is true that the less people see of others and the more instances you get, the worse community. Just look on Wow, the more instanced the game have become, the worse community have they gotten. The dungeon finder didn't exactly help either. I remember a while in 2005 when Wows community where known to be pretty good.

    You don't have to play the personal story in TOR.  Well, possibly a little at the beginning, but they've been clear on this.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    You don't have to play the personal story in TOR.  Well, possibly a little at the beginning, but they've been clear on this.

    Fine if that is true. If it is Bioware might actually have a hit here.

    But I still worry that they will ram it down our throats all the time.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    You don't have to play the personal story in TOR.  Well, possibly a little at the beginning, but they've been clear on this.

    Fine if that is true. If it is Bioware might actually have a hit here.

    But I still worry that they will ram it down our throats all the time.

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

    They're not a person you know.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

    They're not a person you know.

    Which makes it more impressive?  They are obviously still very careful about what they say so that only things that are 100% confirmed get released to the public.  Being able to pretty much entirely ignore the personal story if you choose is something they've said a LOT, so it isn't like one accidental slip-up.  There's no reason to think it isn't true.

  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,397

    But But...GW2 might be doing very similar things reguarding quests and storys, but it's gods gift to us! Duh! Look at the hype! It's totally different and better!

    *Rolls eyes*

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

    They're not a person you know.

    Which makes it more impressive?  They are obviously still very careful about what they say so that only things that are 100% confirmed get released to the public.  Being able to pretty much entirely ignore the personal story if you choose is something they've said a LOT, so it isn't like one accidental slip-up.  There's no reason to think it isn't true.

    Granted,  but that doesn't make it true. They've said encouraging things, they've said discouraging things, depending on what you like in an mmo. Be reasonable, we're not hating, we're just saying wait til launch to see how it goes.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

    They're not a person you know.

    Which makes it more impressive?  They are obviously still very careful about what they say so that only things that are 100% confirmed get released to the public.  Being able to pretty much entirely ignore the personal story if you choose is something they've said a LOT, so it isn't like one accidental slip-up.  There's no reason to think it isn't true.

    Granted,  but that doesn't make it true. They've said encouraging things, they've said discouraging things, depending on what you like in an mmo. Be reasonable, we're not hating, we're just saying wait til launch to see how it goes.

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Loke666


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    It's just something they've been saying FOR OVER A YEAR.

    Saying something for a long while doesn't make it true. And I played most Bioware games, I am not sure they can keep the background away.

    Bioware is known for being very honest however.

    They're not a person you know.

    Which makes it more impressive?  They are obviously still very careful about what they say so that only things that are 100% confirmed get released to the public.  Being able to pretty much entirely ignore the personal story if you choose is something they've said a LOT, so it isn't like one accidental slip-up.  There's no reason to think it isn't true.

    Granted,  but that doesn't make it true. They've said encouraging things, they've said discouraging things, depending on what you like in an mmo. Be reasonable, we're not hating, we're just saying wait til launch to see how it goes.

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

    Cause they're a for profit business.

    Also it needn't be a lie. It could be a different interperation of what being forced to do personal stuff means. Perhaps what they intend isn't seen as being forced to do personal stuff to them or others but is being seen as being forced to do personal stuff to others.  Hence, we'll see when it lauches.

  • ZarcobZarcob Member Posts: 207

    I find the opinion that a story detracts from community very hard to swallow.  The problem is that quests & storylines are most often written as solo experiences, not that quest or storyline content gradually degrades community regardless of how its crafted.  There's nothing stopping a story from involving multiple people playing multiple roles, or at the very least utilizing community-building mechanisms like grouping or communication.  I believe the reason some people reach that opinion is simply because most story content is designed as solo-content, and solo content and community building are mutually exclusive whereas storylines could potentially thrive with either.

    The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Zarcob

    I find the opinion that a story detracts from community very hard to swallow.  The problem is that quests & storylines are most often written as solo experiences, not that quest or storyline content gradually degrades community regardless of how its crafted.  There's nothing stopping a story from involving multiple people playing multiple roles, or at the very least utilizing community-building mechanisms like grouping or communication.  I believe the reason some people reach that opinion is simply because most story content is designed as solo-content, and solo content and community building are mutually exclusive whereas storylines could potentially thrive with either.

    Story doesn't detract from community. Mandatory storylines that define your char for you, do.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    Has BioWare ever made a game where the story wasn't the main focus? -- That's my reaction to people who complain about the story system.

     

    For a more on-topic response, I think a lot of the problem is that players don't consider quests to be anything story related. Most players, myself included, don't even read the quest text, and quests are more often than not simply a means to an end.  The primary difference between a game with a quest based system and a grind based system is that quests tend to compartmentalize the grind, giving players a plethora of short term goals to take their mind off the overarching goal of reaching the level cap.

    What BioWare is doing with SW:ToR is more or less forcing their story onto the players, which a lot of gamers don't like. Choosing to not play the game due to the increased focus on story is a valid reason to not purchase the game, but it's silly to complain about it on a message board.  This is an MMORPG for BioWare fans, and if you don't like the BioWare style of gameplay, there's no reason for you to play the game.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

    Cause they're a for profit business.

    Also it needn't be a lie. It could be a different interperation of what being forced to do personal stuff means. Perhaps what they intend isn't seen as being forced to do personal stuff to them or others but is being seen as being forced to do personal stuff to others.  Hence, we'll see when it lauches.

    Break that down for me a bit, because I don't see how they can say what they've said and people are still "forced to do stuff" without lying going on.  Do you mean to get certain gear?  They've covered that and the fact you'll be able to get whatever gear you need doing what you like to do.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

    Cause they're a for profit business.

    Also it needn't be a lie. It could be a different interperation of what being forced to do personal stuff means. Perhaps what they intend isn't seen as being forced to do personal stuff to them or others but is being seen as being forced to do personal stuff to others.  Hence, we'll see when it lauches.

    Break that down for me a bit, because I don't see how they can say what they've said and people are still "forced to do stuff" without lying going on.  Do you mean to get certain gear?  They've covered that and the fact you'll be able to get whatever gear you need doing what you like to do.

    You mean you've never heard of 2 people having honestly different interperatations of the same thing?

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

    Cause they're a for profit business.

    Also it needn't be a lie. It could be a different interperation of what being forced to do personal stuff means. Perhaps what they intend isn't seen as being forced to do personal stuff to them or others but is being seen as being forced to do personal stuff to others.  Hence, we'll see when it lauches.

    Break that down for me a bit, because I don't see how they can say what they've said and people are still "forced to do stuff" without lying going on.  Do you mean to get certain gear?  They've covered that and the fact you'll be able to get whatever gear you need doing what you like to do.

    You mean you've never heard of 2 people having honestly different interperatations of the same thing?

    I want you to explain in detail how what you say is possible.  Give an example.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    I just don't see where this doubt is coming from.  They are a company known for maintaining a high standard of honesty with what they've released.  They have repeatedly said you are not forced to do personal story stuff, though of course it is there.  Why would they repeatedly lie about that given that they try to be open and honest about everything?  Why are you so doubtful about this one thing that you'd actually like?

    Cause they're a for profit business.

    Also it needn't be a lie. It could be a different interperation of what being forced to do personal stuff means. Perhaps what they intend isn't seen as being forced to do personal stuff to them or others but is being seen as being forced to do personal stuff to others.  Hence, we'll see when it lauches.

    Break that down for me a bit, because I don't see how they can say what they've said and people are still "forced to do stuff" without lying going on.  Do you mean to get certain gear?  They've covered that and the fact you'll be able to get whatever gear you need doing what you like to do.

    You mean you've never heard of 2 people having honestly different interperatations of the same thing?

    I want you to explain in detail how what you say is possible.  Give an example.

    Look, its clearly possible that 2 people can honestly have different interpretation of the same thing. Do you deny that? Since that is possible, there is no need to provide an example.  Especially since we have determined where you stand on the issue, I know you won't be pursuaded by any example I could make up since I know you would honestly interpret it differently.

  • AthcearAthcear Member Posts: 420

    I don't think story and community are mutually exclusive.  The things that make a good story are writing, art, and immersion.  The things that make a good community are fun group content, ease of access, and an interconnected economy.  You can have both.

    Important facts:
    1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
    2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
    3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
    4. Community is more important than you think.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413

    Originally posted by cyphers


     


    That's why I don't grasp those people who're so much against deepened storytelling in MMO's: because, if you dislike the Story aspect in SW:TOR, then that means that you're satisfied with current questing mechanics, right?


    Because that is the logical conclusion: people who don't like more story via improved, questing, must be convinced that the questing as done in current MMO's for many years now is the best quest gameplay MMO's have to offer.


     


    TL;DR


    Why hate improved storytelling via questing in MMO's, if it isn't because you think quest gameplay is perfect as it is in current MMO's?

    Wow, complete logic fail there buddy.  Its not an either or system, black or white system (though im not surprised you think that way given you're a bioware fan).  Some of us actually prefer the system that was in place prior to Blizzard foisting the "questing" system of leveling on us.

    In old games like EQ, we forged our own path.  We decided what WE wanted to do that day.  Not what the developers wanted us to do.  If we felt like pwning some gnolls, we got a group together and went to blackburrow, if we wanted to annoy some Dark Elf n00bs, we would run through nektulos forest killing the guards. The list goes on and on.  The idea that PVE mmo's have turned into a "theme park" was developed primarily by Blizzard with WOW. in EQ you had typically 3-5 zones that had level appropriate mobs you could kill, and usually at least 2 dungeons in each level range you could group in.  You never HAD to go to a certain place to XP.  Unlike WOW, where you were forced upon a borderline linear path from one place to the next, with *some* variation at the higher levels.

    I and most of my old MMO friends absolutely fucking ABHOR the questing system.  Sadly, SW:TOR's overglorified single player experience sounds even worse than questing.

    What you "storytelling" people can't seem to get your heads around is that we play MMO's because they give us a choice, we don't want our hand held, we want to determine "who" our characters are.  If i wanted a single player experience, i'd buy a single player game.  If i want a good story, i'll read a book.  If i want an immersive story "told" to me, i'll watch a movie.  Until then, leave MMO's to what they were designed to be.  Open worlds with more of a sandbox style gameplay where the players determine the path.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    I want you to explain in detail how what you say is possible.  Give an example.

    Look, its clearly possible that 2 people can honestly have different interpretation of the same thing. Do you deny that? Since that is possible, there is no need to provide an example.  Especially since we have determined where you stand on the issue, I know you won't be pursuaded by any example I could make up since I know you would honestly interpret it differently.

    I am just trying to understand how what you are saying is logically consistent.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Originally posted by cyphers


     


    That's why I don't grasp those people who're so much against deepened storytelling in MMO's: because, if you dislike the Story aspect in SW:TOR, then that means that you're satisfied with current questing mechanics, right?


    Because that is the logical conclusion: people who don't like more story via improved, questing, must be convinced that the questing as done in current MMO's for many years now is the best quest gameplay MMO's have to offer.


     


    TL;DR


    Why hate improved storytelling via questing in MMO's, if it isn't because you think quest gameplay is perfect as it is in current MMO's?

    Wow, complete logic fail there buddy.  Its not an either or system, black or white system (though im not surprised you think that way given you're a bioware fan).  Some of us actually prefer the system that was in place prior to Blizzard foisting the "questing" system of leveling on us.

    In old games like EQ, we forged our own path.  We decided what WE wanted to do that day.  Not what the developers wanted us to do.  If we felt like pwning some gnolls, we got a group together and went to blackburrow, if we wanted to annoy some Dark Elf n00bs, we would run through nektulos forest killing the guards. The list goes on and on.  The idea that PVE mmo's have turned into a "theme park" was developed primarily by Blizzard with WOW. in EQ you had typically 3-5 zones that had level appropriate mobs you could kill, and usually at least 2 dungeons in each level range you could group in.  You never HAD to go to a certain place to XP.  Unlike WOW, where you were forced upon a borderline linear path from one place to the next, with *some* variation at the higher levels.

    I and most of my old MMO friends absolutely fucking ABHOR the questing system.  Sadly, SW:TOR's overglorified single player experience sounds even worse than questing.

    What you "storytelling" people can't seem to get your heads around is that we play MMO's because they give us a choice, we don't want our hand held, we want to determine "who" our characters are.  If i wanted a single player experience, i'd buy a single player game.  If i want a good story, i'll read a book.  If i want an immersive story "told" to me, i'll watch a movie.  Until then, leave MMO's to what they were designed to be.  Open worlds with more of a sandbox style gameplay where the players determine the path.

    So what you are saying is that the company that has over 11 million subs did it wrong.

     

    Seems to me that the majority of gamers that want to pay to play want a questing system.  If they didn't, the games with the most subs would not be what they are today. I am not saying you and your friends are wrong. Everyone has a way they like to play games. Just that you think sandbox is the best or only way to create a real MMO. That is your opinion, not backed up by economics.

     

    And the word "choice" you used. The main difference in BW's story in TOR will be choice. You chose to be good, bad or neutral in your class story choices. This will change your character progression based on light, dark or grey alignment. This will change what skills you can have  and what quests you can do in your story arc and which companions you meet or kill. But there is more to choice in TOR. There will be thousands of standard open world quests that have limited open world stories as most themepark MMO's have. These can be done instead of your class story if you wish. And they are leaning towards having PvP and the space mini-game giving you XP as well.

     

    And I see no loss in community with the class story arc BW will have. It will take place in the open worlds they have. It will be a seamless move in and out of the buildings that may have your quest giver in. Then you will quest in the open world with everyone else running around. You can chose to join up with anyone to quest. Just as you can in many MMO's today. Nothing like STO or even AoC with the instancing everywhere. This game will be 90% open worlds. With the 10% being your normal dungeon instances as flashpoints, Warzones, space mini-game and in your personal class story arc NPC building that is seamlessly conected to the world via a door. No loading screens for going in and out of these rooms.

     

    This game will not be a sandbox, it will be a themepark. But this themepark will make story a part of the ride, not just an anoying line to stand in like most themeparks of today. And it will have choice to play solo, in a group, require a group, open PvP, instanced PvP, which ride to go on, which rides to skip, exploration to go where you want and to just grind to end game. It will be linear and limiting when compaired to a sandbox. But it won't be one story for everyone with no choice. You will be able to do things the way you want. And you can be different even as the same class. But it will be a themepark with a begening and end with expansions as it grows. The difference will be the different ways to get to the end and weather or not you chose to do so using the story or ignoring it.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,287

    I agree, I'm tired of the current quest based mechanics of recent games, so this new (?) story approach might be a change for the better.  (but don't the final fantasy games already do something like this?)

    But as others have mentioned, I'd like to see games return more to group centric grinding, a la early DAOC but its pretty obvious that isn't likely to happen any time soon so we'll see how it goes.

    Of course, I'm open to alternate forms of character progression as well, like strictly from player vs player interaction (not necessarily only combat)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Okay theres a problem with both extremes of each type, at least in my opinion

     

    Theme park games:

    The biggest problem with a lot of theme park games is, you pick up 20 quests (the max your quest journal will hold), you pair the 20 quests up depending on monsters and their location to each other. Kill those monsters turn in the items (if it's a courier type, gotta love EVE terms) then rinse and repeat. It's not about the story at all. it's about getting the quests done as fast as possible to see that bar move closer form one end to the other.  The only story anyone worries about is the main one and they finish that so quickly that it's over before it even began. theres no stopping it's just choo choo right to the end. Then once content runs out it's like great...now what?  OOH shiny new game over here, and it starts all over again.

     

    Sandbox games:

    First off i haven't played a lot of sandbox games so forgive me if some of my opinions are a bit off.  However in sandbox games the real ones mind you.  You are dropped in the world introduced to the interface and thats it.  Time for you to make your own story brother/sister, the world is yours.  First thing that crosses the average player is.  Okay, so whats there to do here? Okay talk to this guy. Hmm doesn't say anything. Okay how about this guy? Okay hes a merchant great thats..something, how do i get money? Well i gotta fall back on my game experience, kill monsters, do quests.  Okay this is a sandbox so no quests i'll kill a monster.  Now where do i go to do that? okay i'll wander here? nope no monsters here?, how about over here? Nope none there to...oh wait theres one, now wheres my weapon? great i don't have one? how do i get one?

    Tons of questions and the player is lost at the start.  Most people are bad story tellers and worse when they don't have some kind of direction.  True sandboxers are for people who like to just wander and make up there own thing, the problem is this type of person makes up only a part of the gaming group.  That would be fine but sandbox games only play to this part of the pie and no other, while themepark games do tend to at least work to all parts of the pie, the sand box person can go wandering around and avoid all the quests and make his or her own story if he/she wants but the theme park person can't do quest in a sand box game.

     

    Thats not to say either style of game is wrong and extremes in either case (WOW for theme park and MO for sandbox) tend to be rather limiting on the fun aspect.  Most people want freedom and thats fine but you also have to have a direction in games as very few can tell their own story and make it interesting.  Whether what BW/Anet is doing is right or not still remains to be seen but if they can make the story interesting and make people feel like they are immersed in a game world and not have things (bugs, bad game mechanics) that detract from that game play, I believe they will do just fine.

    As for sandbox games yes there does need to be more of them for those that like that sort of game, but one has to remember that sandbox games do not deliver well to those that like some sort of direction in their game.  So as the general populace (hand holding or want a story in their game) tends to gravitate towards themepark games, companies will make more and more of these games.  Frankly a lot of people hate a world where they have to make everything up on their own, because again they are bad at storytelling and prefer to watch a good movie over writing a book themselves (Yes that last part was an analogy)

    At least thats the way i see it,

    FYI: The second paragraph was my first impression of MO by the way with some things added (mostly the no weapon part)

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

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