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would you do it? job question
maji
Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
So I currently work as a freelancer as programmer. I program mostly stuff in flash, such as ads, games and other stuff. Things are going alright but not as well as I hoped.
Now I got offered a job at a games developer here in town. They exist for about four years, and develope e-learning programs, but mostly games (wii, nintendo ds, mobiles, browser games etc). They're a pretty small company, with just a few graphic artists, programmers for different languages and such, maybe a dozen people all in all. I'd work there mostly as flash developer for browser games, but also program all kinds of other stuff in PHP and can also take part in designing new games. The main part would be flash though.
I like such work, and working in a team is actually what I'm looking for right now, and I'm also into browser games, be it programming them or playing them. I could learn there quite a lot of stuff, and I need just 15 mins to get to that company here in town.
The downside? Currently they are low on funds. They invested too much time into previous projects, and currently have too many going which didn't pay off yet. So they actually can't afford new programmers. Yet, they want new programmers to get already accustomed with that company and stuff, so once they have more money, they have a good workforce and well organized team. Which means: I could start there now (20 hours a week or 40 hours including overtime sometimes on weekends or until midnight), but for a severely reduced salary. How reduced? Let's say, I'd get at that company less money for 40 hours, than I got for 30 hours when I started working right after having finished studying. I'd get half or less of it what I'd normally expect. I'd get paid less than a cleaning lady. And that beeing a programmer with work experience (just 3 years but work experience nonetheless).
Of course the boss of that company promises things like "sure, you get an increased salary as soon as our projects paid off, but I can't tell you when or how much since I don't know that yet".
In short. Advantages of starting there:
working with a nice team
doing the work I like most
work place conveniently near me
I'd learn quite a lot of stuff there that I wanted to teach myself anyway
possibly a nice salary in half a year or a year
Disadvantages:
buttloads of work (often 50+ hours a week)
a joke of a salary
maybe no salary increase at all if their projects don't turn out well
I still got some time to ponder about it. They want me to work for them. I want to do the work. But I can't decide yet if I'd accept these conditions. I'd probably not find another gaming company nearby, so if I'd find one I'd have to move. Or I'd just accept another programmers job nearby (of which there should be a lot, since the city I live in is buzzing with all kinds of media stuff).
I could tell them "no thanks, you want a programmer but you can't afford it, can't do that". Or "yeah why not, let's restrict the contract to half a year, so I can conveniently quit in case it doesn't turn out the way I like it, and otherwise can continue". Or "yeah I'd join, but only for at least a 50% increase in salary, and that only for a start".
I mean doing the stuff you like most as a job is worth a lot. But is it worth getting paid less than a pizza delivery dude? And that as programmer?
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Comments
The general rule is to never work for decreased salary!
But if you can afford it and have time to try......i would do it. I would take a very close look at the companys finacial history before deciding.
Personally, I wouldn't do it man. It would be a really good opportunity, or it could be massive failure causing you to live on Ramen Noodles for a year afterwards.
It would be a good for experience and it would probably look good on a resume later, but to me what you've described is just too much of a dice roll.
Of course, this is me. I like security. I like knowing where my rent is coming from next month. I like knowing that I will be able to pay the light bill before it's shut off and I like knowing I can accomplish these things for every month in the foreseeable future.
Personally, if I went with anything at all I would go with something like:
"yeah why not, let's restrict the contract to half a year, so I can conveniently quit in case it doesn't turn out the way I like it, and otherwise can continue Or yeah I'd join, but only for at least a 50% increase in salary, and that only for a start".
Give them the option. Probably a little better worded to where the 6month thing looks worse than the 50% increase in salary. As that line sits now, if I was hiring you I wouldn't even consider the second option and consider it when the time comes. Something like "half a year and I can only work 20hrs a week".
Then again, you do work as a freelance programmer, so as long as they don't restrict you and try to take ownership of the work you create at home to help pay the bills (read the fine print), then it would probably be a pretty good opportunity. It's just really up to you, man.
I would also check out the laws in your country. In some places, if you work for so long under an implied contract, it still applies whether you signed anything or not. I have a friend currently being sued for 50,000 GBP, for violating one of those implied contracts.
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Don't do it. I recently took a job where I make less than I used to and is extremely low paying. I make half of what the average is for the job. So, I'm probably in the bottom 10% in terms of pay for this job. I'm pissed off pretty much every day.
Though your situation is a little different. My job is within my experience and education. I shouldn't have taken it, but I was desperate. I've been looking for other jobs, but it's hard right now. I've seriously considered working at a fast food place or a department store. It would be a slight pay cut, but at least I wouldn't be criminally underpaid and I wouldn't have to think as much.
Yeah that's also what I worry about. That if I accept, then I wake up each morning, and think in the subway "and everyone of them is getting paid better than me... yuck.... ". That's no fun then.
Well, thanks for your comments. On monday I'll phone the boss of that company or meet up with him, and tell him that if he'd pay 50% more, which would then still be less than what I'd normally get paid for a similiar job at another company, I'd join any moment. But if he insists on paying me less than a garbage collector or cash lady or window cleaner or whatever (nothing against those jobs of course), that I can't accept then. He'll then probably up his offer by 5% or so and then I'll take some other job.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Take the 20 hour/week part time job. It'll be a boon to your resume and still give you time to make more money as a freelance. Just don't offer them any good ideas. Do your work and build experience, see what they offer you in the future. If it turns out to be your dream job then I'd help creatively.
if you can afford it and you have a job now making more dont take it
They are a very small company. If your salary goes up, it wont go up by much, and since you were the most recent one hired, you will be the first one let go in case they hit financial hardtimes (which is prevalent in that sector of work).
If your freelance is barely making you enough to eat then go for it. If you are financially fine, I'd be careful with this one.....or do both.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I dont know how well you know these people, but chances are when / if there project is payed off I wouldnt expect to get a whopping salary increase.
Most places dont do that, youd be lucky to get a %15 percent increase at the most in a year. Employers will pay an employee the least amount that they possibly can. Especially if they see that you're willing to work for next to nothing.
also, while the experience may look good on your resume the company seems to be struggling with project management. Definitely not something you want to go into to right off the bat. If the PM is stretching his budget at the expense of the employees, dont expect to get compensated for it.
So basically you're getting paid like an intern but expected to do employee work? I don't think so Tim.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
You could agree to the salary, but demand you are the one that decide how much and when you work and that you can quit anytime and if they want to get rid off you they'll have two months payment.
That wayyou make your hours and if you get a freelance job you will be able to work less for the time being.
If things go south you can quit and leave.
If they get fed up you'll be out of a job but with some pocket change. No big loss.
It's very simple in my opinion, the less they want to pay the more control you should have and they less. A company pays for the expertise they can get and to keep said expertese, if they are nor willing to pay for said expertese they do not deserve the security of said expertese.
If they do not agree ask them twice the offered money.
If that does not suit them, their loss.
These are the first four things I would ask myself, for any job I'd think about taking.
Can I afford to take the pay cut and still pay the bills?
If I lose this job (or they go bankrupt) how hard will it be for me to earn what I was making before?
Will taking this job advance me persoanlly in this field? Meaning can I ask for and bargain from a better position for a like job later down the road?
How much is my personal time worth? Is it worth losing 10 to 20 hours (or more) of my time every week?
I dont know what state youre in. But in Oregon if you are on salary they dont have to pay you overtime. And they can work you 6 or even 7 days a week. The only thing they have to guarantee you is that you dont make less than minimum wage. Meaning the hours worked divided by your base pay (plus commissions) doesnt go below the state minimun. Do companies abuse that. No. They'd get a middle finger and a FU and be lucky to hire someone worth a shit if they did. But Im just trying to point out some of the potential downsides. (I can give you some fucked-up labor and wage stories)
If it was me and I had to answer "no" (or in point 2, "wouldnt be able to easily") to any one of those bullet points, I would not take the job.
But this statement alone I would tell you to just say no way.
"Of course the boss of that company promises things like "sure, you get an increased salary as soon as our projects paid off, but I can't tell you when or how much since I don't know that yet".
To put it bluntly "A promise dont mean shit." And just so you know that statement isnt binding in terms of how much you may get paid later on down the line.
To me it seems this person just wants some cheap (free) labor and knows most people will think about it because its in the "games industry". Which is like being a rock star or an actor, just for geeks instead.
Truthfully it sounds to me like they are on the edge of bankruptcy. Or more likely, they are just cycling thru (semi)experienced but cheap labor.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
in my own opinion, it is very inhuman to treat employees like that. you should be paid according to your work. if your job is regulated you can always go to the governing body that protect the welfare of the workers.
from cathy
I would do it for the good reasonf you state. However i would make sure my contract has the following.
If profits rise to a good level par rise to a good and fare level too.
The abilaty to say no to frivalouse additional workload if you think its too much with what you are currently doing [i.e. you are a PROGGRAMMER not an intern or tea bot].
Clearly define what sort of work you will have to do so that frivalouse work is easier to define and the contract supports your decision to poliyly say no if you are alreaDY working to capacity.
Have a good opt out clause if you decide to leave.
Overall its a good job offer as it seems its closer to what you want with a nice small team who you could all get along well with which makes for a more friendly atmosphere. Of curse there is some risk there and at least for now the pay is not ideal but those issues could go away if you and the team work hard. Also you forgot to add another big advantage...
In todays job climate even with your programming sklls getting a job you like is VERY hard. money is nice but so is job happiness. decise which you prefer.
P.S. sorry about the spelling but am high on painkillers and in a lot of pain
Going here and responding helps take my mind off the above.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
It's actually okay to make less if it's what you want to do.
I'd say make the leap if it's feasible. Really, when it comes right down to it, why the hell not, right?