TOR is very much Star Wars. Just as I believe most EU stuff is good enough to be canon, some really good books out there. Just because it's set in a different time period doesn't matter, it still has the telltale traits of Star Wars.
no one has pointed out to the OP that lucas did not write episode 4 first.
as for swg it was fun.
Umm actually he did he is the original auther of the Book Star Wars Episode IV which was published in 1976 and the movie itself was released in 1977.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
no one has pointed out to the OP that lucas did not write episode 4 first.
as for swg it was fun.
Umm actually he did he is the original auther of the Book Star Wars Episode IV which was published in 1976 and the movie itself was released in 1977.
The Screenplays, especially V and VI, were all modified from what Lucas had. THe problem with the new movies is that no one working with Lucas was willing to tell him anything he did was crappy or wrong, so unlike the first 3 films the new ones turned out pretty poorl.
10k People per month for months is not normal. The whole reason NGE was made was because of this significant loss. You guys can romanticize the game all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. SWG was not doing well before NGE was even considered, as the Devs involved have attested (they've also said NGE was poorly thought out and implemented).
Sorry, but you are mistaken or being deliberately dense here.
SWG had many problems from the start and was losing people, no one has argued that point; however it had rebounded significantly with Jump to Light Speed and there were indications that the CU and expansion would likewise rebound it a bit.
The CU was intended to be the "big fix" and had been touted as such for a very long time before it went live. Lots of other little fixes and changes had been made along the way. The NGE was conceived and work begun BEFORE the CU had even been given a serious chance to stabilize the playerbase.
SWG was still very much a 'viable' game when the NGE was unleashed on it. The only standard by which SWG was a "failure" was in a mythical expectation that there were 1 million+ players out there just waiting for a simpler SW MMO. They decided to blow off their existing customer base to pursue potential customers with no evidence to suggest those potential customers even existed.
10k People per month for months is not normal. The whole reason NGE was made was because of this significant loss. You guys can romanticize the game all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. SWG was not doing well before NGE was even considered, as the Devs involved have attested (they've also said NGE was poorly thought out and implemented).
Sorry, but you are mistaken or being deliberately dense here.
SWG had many problems from the start and was losing people, no one has argued that point; however it had rebounded significantly with Jump to Light Speed and there were indications that the CU and expansion would likewise rebound it a bit.
The CU was intended to be the "big fix" and had been touted as such for a very long time before it went live. Lots of other little fixes and changes had been made along the way. The NGE was conceived and work begun BEFORE the CU had even been given a serious chance to stabilize the playerbase.
SWG was still very much a 'viable' game when the NGE was unleashed on it. The only standard by which SWG was a "failure" was in a mythical expectation that there were 1 million+ players out there just waiting for a simpler SW MMO. They decided to blow off their existing customer base to pursue potential customers with no evidence to suggest those potential customers even existed.
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
10k People per month for months is not normal. The whole reason NGE was made was because of this significant loss. You guys can romanticize the game all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. SWG was not doing well before NGE was even considered, as the Devs involved have attested (they've also said NGE was poorly thought out and implemented).
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
No offense, and it doesn't matter that i disagree, but it's irrelevant at the point in time you are talking about if your premise is that SWG was a failure.
The NGE came out years after launch, which means SWG was a game that sustained more than 200k sub for years. It was certainly bleeding subs, for many reasons, but who cares. Sure MMOs can cost upwards and beyond of 50 million dollars now... but certainly not back then. SWG was in development before 1999 as I recall.
SOE easily made the costs of that game with those sub numbers very quickly. It was at its peak 7 months past launch, with numbers that would make it top ten now. Yet there are few MMOs now that retain numbers like that past a few months now. Cryptic said they were hoping for 200k... for Star Trek??? Really?
If SWG was a failure and their solution to fix it was the NGE, years after launch, then pretty much every game out now minus 2 or 3, are HUGE failures.
And we know that's not true, no matter what people say. Every company would be out of business if that was the case. With the NGE, they risked losing more subs, something that was already happening anyways, the game was long payed for. They gambled to trade the vets for WoW players and lost. And the game is still around now. I don't like it, but its certainly not a financial failure, or they would have pulled the plug ages ago.
I completely disagree with the OP as well, it has nothing to do with the lore.
SWTOR is star wars. it's just a tiny little piece of star wars, whereas fans of SWG were probably hoping to play in the star wars universe in general, not just one of a couple of very specific and limited storylines taking place in it.
There is nothing wrong with the Old Republic storyline. What's disappointing for SWG fans is BioWare's approach to it. Really boils down to immersion in a world vs. immersion in a story. SWG was about the former - it created a star wars world where people could live. TOR is about the former, they create a short story in which you can be one of the specific character.
Both types of approach can yield excellent experiences, they are just very different experiences. And someone that expects one of these experiences but gets the other is sure to be disappointed. If i am expecting to play out a specific story with a beginning, middle and end and i'm dropped in the middle of nowhere with no purpose, i'll be disappointed. If I am expecting to live in the star wars galaxy and make a life for myself, but i'm immediately told that i am locked to a certain storyline with only a few real choices, I'll also be disappointed.
It's not right and wrong, good or bad. It's a matter of expectations and different experiences. I'm buying TOR to replace Mass Effect, not to replace my current MMO. People buying it for other reasons may be in for disappointment.
This is the best post on this subject in ages. Well done.
I have no idea why the two camps demonize each other, and argue over ridiculous points endlessly. Taking your advice, assuming people understand your points, most SWG vets will likely enjoy SWTOR. My favorite MMO was SWG for sure thus far, and I know I will enjoy SWTOR. The approach is different, thats all.
Does it have things I do not like? Sure does, as did SWG. And I think this is probably the norm. The angry vets are exaggerated. It seems to me that it is the same 10 people attacking the game, with the same people defending it over and over again. I would bet the same 20 people are responsible for at least 40% of the posts in this section of the forums.
You don't need to experience the game, there is more than enough information out for you to decide if the playstyle is for you. And the style is obvious, and will not change before or after launch.
10k People per month for months is not normal. The whole reason NGE was made was because of this significant loss. You guys can romanticize the game all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. SWG was not doing well before NGE was even considered, as the Devs involved have attested (they've also said NGE was poorly thought out and implemented).
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
No offense, and it doesn't matter that i disagree, but it's irrelevant at the point in time you are talking about if your premise is that SWG was a failure.
The NGE came out years after launch, which means SWG was a game that sustained more than 200k sub for years. It was certainly bleeding subs, for many reasons, but who cares. Sure MMOs can cost upwards and beyond of 50 million dollars now... but certainly not back then. SWG was in development before 1999 as I recall.
SOE easily made the costs of that game with those sub numbers very quickly. It was at its peak 7 months past launch, with numbers that would make it top ten now. Yet there are few MMOs now that retain numbers like that past a few months now. Cryptic said they were hoping for 200k... for Star Trek??? Really?
If SWG was a failure and their solution to fix it was the NGE, years after launch, then pretty much every game out now minus 2 or 3, are HUGE failures.
And we know that's not true, no matter what people say. Every company would be out of business if that was the case. With the NGE, they risked losing more subs, something that was already happening anyways, the game was long payed for. They gambled to trade the vets for WoW players and lost. And the game is still around now. I don't like it, but its certainly not a financial failure, or they would have pulled the plug ages ago.
I completely disagree with the OP as well, it has nothing to do with the lore.
My premise is that SWG was a poor product because it didn't capitalize on the potential market well at all. WoW came out a year later just about and was far, far more successful even with a less powerful IP (not that Warcraft isn't popular, but Star Wars blows it out of the water). From a design standpoint it was a poor use of the IP since it didn't give very many Star Wars fans what they actually wanted, which is one of the reasons it didn't have great retention at any point during its life. It is important to bear in mind here that "a product that generates some net profit" is NOT the same thing as a product that is financial successful. Businesses can and do stop plants, products, etc that ARE profitable because they are not profitable enough. In this manner, SWG was a financial failure, imho (and I think you'd get the same answer from whomever was in charge of SWG financially if you got a frank conversation out of them).
One could make a similar argument for...LOTRO, I think that's about it. LOTRO is at a bit of a disadvantage though since its IP, though very popular, has many similarities to WoW which had come before. Hence it had a market disadvantage. Still, I'd say LOTRO had a number of other factors that made it not so great. Combat controls were worse than WoW, for instance (less responsive for one). If some of those problems hadn't been present upon release, I think it would have done a lot better. Still LOTRO is a complicated case.
My premise is that SWG was a poor product because it didn't capitalize on the potential market well at all. WoW came out a year later just about and was far, far more successful even with a less powerful IP (not that Warcraft isn't popular, but Star Wars blows it out of the water). From a design standpoint it was a poor use of the IP since it didn't give very many Star Wars fans what they actually wanted, which is one of the reasons it didn't have great retention at any point during its life. It is important to bear in mind here that "a product that generates some net profit" is NOT the same thing as a product that is financial successful. Businesses can and do stop plants, products, etc that ARE profitable because they are not profitable enough. In this manner, SWG was a financial failure, imho (and I think you'd get the same answer from whomever was in charge of SWG financially if you got a frank conversation out of them).
One could make a similar argument for...LOTRO, I think that's about it. LOTRO is at a bit of a disadvantage though since its IP, though very popular, has many similarities to WoW which had come before. Hence it had a market disadvantage. Still, I'd say LOTRO had a number of other factors that made it not so great. Combat controls were worse than WoW, for instance (less responsive for one). If some of those problems hadn't been present upon release, I think it would have done a lot better. Still LOTRO is a complicated case.
It's funny because I think you touched on what I thought happened to SWG. I am not going to argue any of your points, they are well spoken for, and even though I disagree still, there is no point to carry it on.
But the way you worded the failure, SOE could not have known SWG was a 'failure' until AFTER WoW came out. Prior to this, their sub numbers were excellent within the market of that time. And the numbers actually grew for the first 7 months.
My point though, starts with the state of SWG. As everyone knows, it was a freakin mess at launch. Bugs were everywhere, lag, you name it. You could walk around and see that they hadn't finished things in the game, with entire caves empty. It was the general consensus that the game was released way too early, even Koster said this later on.
So to me, related to what you said, all the major changes, which were supposed to be fixes for all the problems, turned into amendments and game altering things. The CU was not the original design, there was no loot in the game really in the beginning and there is no need to discuss the NGE. I personally got tired of waiting for things to be fixed. We always ended up with new things we didn't expect or ask for. So we got tired and left, some going to WoW itself.
So at that point, I can agree with you that SOE was not satisfied with the games potential, and all the horrible changes were an attempt to catch WoW numbers, which was a market they were not aware of when the game came out.
In this sense, I guess its true that the game was failing SOE, even if they didn't know this to be true prior to WoW. I still maintain that the game did not fail Star Wars fans, simply because we were already very used to terrible Lucas Arts games, minus a precious few gems here and there. In my opinion. WoW brought in many new players, most of which could not care less about Star Wars, or virtual worlds for that matter.
Just to add for some relevance, SWTOR will likely have no issues like this. It doesn't matter what people think of the game design, it will likely be very solid and run very well, which is what started the whole mess that was SWG in my opinion.
I dislied Star Wars, I thought it was some overrated crap with magic and sci-fi swords, stupid droids etc, even though I've watched episodes 4-6 and I enjoyed sci-fi. That was until I tried sw:kotor (I was bored that day and it had a good rating, so I asked: why not?), thats when my opinion changed. I liked it, actually loved it. I also enjoyed jedi academy, but other than these other SW games werent that great. So if SW fans think that kotor isnt part of SW, then all I can do is to spit on you and your vanilla SW.
But the way you worded the failure, SOE could not have known SWG was a 'failure' until AFTER WoW came out. Prior to this, their sub numbers were excellent within the market of that time. And the numbers actually grew for the first 7 months.
So at that point, I can agree with you that SOE was not satisfied with the games potential, and all the horrible changes were an attempt to catch WoW numbers, which was a market they were not aware of when the game came out.
In this sense, I guess its true that the game was failing SOE, even if they didn't know this to be true prior to WoW. I still maintain that the game did not fail Star Wars fans, simply because we were already very used to terrible Lucas Arts games, minus a precious few gems here and there.
I don't think that's the whole truth, even if SWG players didn't notice it that much, the game was bleeding subs already, and that only became more and faster when EQ2 and more importantly WoW came out. They had decreased from a 300k to a bit over 200k before NGE and losing thousands and thousands more subs per month.
Of course 200k subs was and is still good, but it's understandable that they wanted to turn the tide, because the trail they were on was going downhill fast.
It's good to know that one of the good SW games was KOTOR, and that Bioware who made it is also the company that makes SW:TOR. Further it's good to realise that there's a difference between Star Wars fans and SWG fans, they aren't the same: there are SW fans who very much disliked SWG and there are SWG fans who very much dislike SW:TOR and who won't touch another Star Wars MMO if it isn't like SWG was.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think that's the whole truth, even if SWG players didn't notice it that much, the game was bleeding subs already, and that only became more and faster when EQ2 and more importantly WoW came out. They had decreased from a 300k to a bit over 200k before NGE and losing thousands and thousands more subs per month.
Of course 200k subs was and is still good, but it's understandable that they wanted to turn the tide, because the trail they were on was going downhill fast.
I do not disagree with anything here, you have added even more reasons for the bleeding. There was no single reason, it was many as with most things. My issue was with those saying SWG was a failure, that's all. In the current market which is probably tenfold larger, maintaining several hundred thousand subs, several years after launch is a rarity. So if SWG was a failure, so is every MMO since except a precious few. This is an argument used by people who hated SWG, nothing more.
Which leads to your next point...
It's good to know that one of the good SW games was KOTOR, and that Bioware who made it is also the company that makes SW:TOR. Further it's good to realise that there's a difference between Star Wars fans and SWG fans, they aren't the same: there are SW fans who very much disliked SWG and there are SWG fans who very much dislike SW:TOR and who won't touch another Star Wars MMO if it isn't like SWG was.
I could have wrote that myself. I get the impression that I am now being labeled as a disgruntled SWG vet, since I admit I liked the game, and have now 'defended' it's success or failure. I am not one of those. I loved KOTOR and I am very much looking forward to the game. Sure, I would personally prefer a virtual world, but considering who is making it, that is a ridiculous thing to hope for.
Secondly, Bioware does great things in their games, so I don't mind this. As a Star Wars fan, I am happy to have something which will very likely be a quality product. Most Star Wars games are sub-par in my opinion, and judging by their sales on average, this seems to be true for the average gamer. I contend that most SWG vets, are not disgruntled. Most will probably play this game, and enjoy it, that is all I meant to say.
To me, all this bickering is ridiculous. It is ridiculous to claim SWG was a failure, and it is even more ridiculous to claim SWTOR is going to be a failure. Both groups do not represent SW gamers I would imagine. Some of you, mostly the same people over and over again, posting so often I actually know your names on sight and your likely arguments now, are bravely manning the front lines of this fight... for nothing.
I could have wrote that myself. I get the impression that I am now being labeled as a disgruntled SWG vet, since I admit I liked the game, and have now 'defended' it's success or failure.
Lol. Well, not to me, unless you start moping about SWG and keep on ranting against SOE and NGE and keep on wishing that SW:TOR would be SWG2 and faulting it vehemently when it becomes apparent with every newsbit that it'll be its own game, and not a SWG2.
But you didn't. In fact, I found your explanations refreshingly balanced and well thought out
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
Cleary, because it's not like someone who was actually playing the game through the events in question would have any clue about the timeline or order in which they happened. (or that there was a massive amount of ass-covering by said devs going on after the NGE flopped or anything)
But there really isn't any pont in arguing it now, Ohatro nailed it - SWG was not a 'failure' by any prior measure of the industry before WoW; Even after WoW there was (and IS) no evidence to support the belief that a SW MMO "should" have WoW-like subscription numbers. No other western market MMO has even approached WoWs numbers since, regardless of genre.
SWTOR may change that, but the market has grown and changed a lot since then and SWTOR is a very different game from the ground up than SWG ever was.
The 'swap' to the NGE was a leap of faith based on an unfounded belief that the IP 'should' have been able to generate more subscriptions.
I dislied Star Wars, I thought it was some overrated crap with magic and sci-fi swords, stupid droids etc, even though I've watched episodes 4-6 and I enjoyed sci-fi. That was until I tried sw:kotor (I was bored that day and it had a good rating, so I asked: why not?), thats when my opinion changed. I liked it, actually loved it. I also enjoyed jedi academy, but other than these other SW games werent that great. So if SW fans think that kotor isnt part of SW, then all I can do is to spit on you and your vanilla SW.
Funny enough, I am not much of a Star Wars fan either. I only played Kotor because I enjoyed Bioware's other games as well. Knights of the Old Republic (Kotor) is simply a great game.
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
But there really isn't any pont in arguing it now, Ohatro nailed it - SWG was not a 'failure' by any prior measure of the industry before WoW; Even after WoW there was (and IS) no evidence to support the belief that a SW MMO "should" have WoW-like subscription numbers. No other western market MMO has even approached WoWs numbers since, regardless of genre.
It sold a million copies, and only retained 300k. The million copies it did sell proves that it "can" have WoW like numbers.
Well my first game for BW was KOTOR2 actually, i only picked up the game because i liked that you could choose to be good or evil (Okay dark side or light side same dang thing really), and as i like almost every game or at least try every game that boost this. I tried this one as well. I was delighted that it had a great story to go right along with it. Tried a few other BW games and got the same feeling (good/evil with good story) so now i'm going to keep buying BW games until they disappoint. my interest in this game has very little to do with SW, sure it's a nice place but my roots lie in the story telling and BW track record more then the SW history.
No reason to think BW won't bring out a good product unless they start doing that. To think a company is going to do a 360 (edit: i meant to type 180, 360 is a complete circle) on you all of a sudden doesn't make any sense to me. So until they do i'm a loyal fan i guess. This very well could have been set anywhere and i would have bought it. Connections to SWG or SW in general make no difference to me.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I don't think that's the whole truth, even if SWG players didn't notice it that much, the game was bleeding subs already, and that only became more and faster when EQ2 and more importantly WoW came out. They had decreased from a 300k to a bit over 200k before NGE and losing thousands and thousands more subs per month.
Of course 200k subs was and is still good, but it's understandable that they wanted to turn the tide, because the trail they were on was going downhill fast.
I do not disagree with anything here, you have added even more reasons for the bleeding. There was no single reason, it was many as with most things. My issue was with those saying SWG was a failure, that's all. In the current market which is probably tenfold larger, maintaining several hundred thousand subs, several years after launch is a rarity. So if SWG was a failure, so is every MMO since except a precious few. This is an argument used by people who hated SWG, nothing more.
Which leads to your next point...
It's good to know that one of the good SW games was KOTOR, and that Bioware who made it is also the company that makes SW:TOR. Further it's good to realise that there's a difference between Star Wars fans and SWG fans, they aren't the same: there are SW fans who very much disliked SWG and there are SWG fans who very much dislike SW:TOR and who won't touch another Star Wars MMO if it isn't like SWG was.
I could have wrote that myself. I get the impression that I am now being labeled as a disgruntled SWG vet, since I admit I liked the game, and have now 'defended' it's success or failure. I am not one of those. I loved KOTOR and I am very much looking forward to the game. Sure, I would personally prefer a virtual world, but considering who is making it, that is a ridiculous thing to hope for.
Secondly, Bioware does great things in their games, so I don't mind this. As a Star Wars fan, I am happy to have something which will very likely be a quality product. Most Star Wars games are sub-par in my opinion, and judging by their sales on average, this seems to be true for the average gamer. I contend that most SWG vets, are not disgruntled. Most will probably play this game, and enjoy it, that is all I meant to say.
To me, all this bickering is ridiculous. It is ridiculous to claim SWG was a failure, and it is even more ridiculous to claim SWTOR is going to be a failure. Both groups do not represent SW gamers I would imagine. Some of you, mostly the same people over and over again, posting so often I actually know your names on sight and your likely arguments now, are bravely manning the front lines of this fight... for nothing.
SWG was a failure in SOE's eyes.
They not only spent a ton more money to make it than they did on EQ, they also had LA to pay for the IP license, and yet at its zenith it only reached 300k subs....150k less then EQ1 was carrying. Not only did it only top out at 300k, but began to fall a few months after launch.
Failure is an understatement for one of the most recognizable IPs around.
Had SWG been EQ1 in space, I have little doubt it would of taken the MMO world by storm. Even more so if they lessened the required time spent ala WoW.
TOR will smash SWG numbers by providing adventure, instead of the economic sim that Koster made.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
They not only spent a ton more money to make it than they did on EQ, they also had LA to pay for the IP license, and yet at its zenith it only reached 300k subs....150k less then EQ1 was carrying. Not only did it only top out at 300k, but began to fall a few months after launch.
Failure is an understatement for one of the most recognizable IPs around.
Had SWG been EQ1 in space, I have little doubt it would of taken the MMO world by storm. Even more so if they lessened the required time spent ala WoW.
TOR will smash SWG numbers by providing adventure, instead of the economic sim that Koster made.
I doubt it was a failure in SOE's eyes but I also doubt they thought it would last 7 years when they started it. Simply put, they still make money from it and haven't lost a dime against the development costs. And, in business (which is all they seem to be about), that's a winner.
7 years it's been around and still has players across multiple servers. Using just a few baseline stats -- assume a flat 7 years at $10 a year per person with 55k users... 6.6 mill a year... $46.2 million. That's without the startup sales and any/all other sales across it's 7 year life. Back when it was started, MMO's were rolling out for less than $10 million.
We definately have a different idea of 'failure' with the above LOWBALLING numbers.
As for will TOR be a smash or crash and burn, that'll be a wait and see.
The thing isn't even out yet so there's no way to know what the hell it'll be like. Just remember the early days of WoW for an idea: Rogues = "god mode" for any PvP. The videos of rogues running around totally naked, using 1cp daggers, killing anyone they could jump in the top/best gear... Problem. Mining was a problem with many nodes that you would get stuck at. Couldn't fight, couldn't stand, etc... You had to Alt-F4 out of the game and come back in to free up from that bug and it took 6 months to fix it yet that game kept going and growing.
There's a lot of potential for thid game but they have really changed a lot of current MMO things with this voice overlay gig.
A HUGE amount of the current MMO player base play MP3's or chat on ventrilo/teamspeak while playing so have their game's sound turned off. Bio has 'workarounds' for not using sound but that is supposedly a major portion of the game so it'll be interesting to see how important that will be to the player base.
As for other features... Again, lets look at WoW. PvP ranking systems, based at first upon world PvP, were released months AFTER the games release and shortly before they came out with battlegrounds. When the BG's came out, many world PvP players through fits talking about how "world PvP is now dead", etc... So rather important/familiar things to many players CAN be introduced months or even years after a games release (try cross-server BG's in WoW -- try 25 user 'top' raid sizes, etc...)
What will happen with this game? Too many questions and too few answers that can be found until AFTER it is released and people see if they are willing to go through the "we didn't know..." "that wasn't really spotted..." and "you were told!" comments/discoveries. If it's a sound game that folks like, it'll grow. If it's not... It'll fade back down and many will go "NEXT!".
Comments
TOR is very much Star Wars. Just as I believe most EU stuff is good enough to be canon, some really good books out there. Just because it's set in a different time period doesn't matter, it still has the telltale traits of Star Wars.
Umm actually he did he is the original auther of the Book Star Wars Episode IV which was published in 1976 and the movie itself was released in 1977.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
The Screenplays, especially V and VI, were all modified from what Lucas had. THe problem with the new movies is that no one working with Lucas was willing to tell him anything he did was crappy or wrong, so unlike the first 3 films the new ones turned out pretty poorl.
Err, why are we talking about this again?
Sorry, but you are mistaken or being deliberately dense here.
SWG had many problems from the start and was losing people, no one has argued that point; however it had rebounded significantly with Jump to Light Speed and there were indications that the CU and expansion would likewise rebound it a bit.
The CU was intended to be the "big fix" and had been touted as such for a very long time before it went live. Lots of other little fixes and changes had been made along the way. The NGE was conceived and work begun BEFORE the CU had even been given a serious chance to stabilize the playerbase.
SWG was still very much a 'viable' game when the NGE was unleashed on it. The only standard by which SWG was a "failure" was in a mythical expectation that there were 1 million+ players out there just waiting for a simpler SW MMO. They decided to blow off their existing customer base to pursue potential customers with no evidence to suggest those potential customers even existed.
I'm going by what the actual Devs who made NGE said about why they made it and what was going on. They said it was losing 10k a month BEFORE NGE WAS CONCEIVED and that NGE came about because of this. I'm pretty sure they know more about what was going on with the game and why they were doing what they were doing than you.
No offense, and it doesn't matter that i disagree, but it's irrelevant at the point in time you are talking about if your premise is that SWG was a failure.
The NGE came out years after launch, which means SWG was a game that sustained more than 200k sub for years. It was certainly bleeding subs, for many reasons, but who cares. Sure MMOs can cost upwards and beyond of 50 million dollars now... but certainly not back then. SWG was in development before 1999 as I recall.
SOE easily made the costs of that game with those sub numbers very quickly. It was at its peak 7 months past launch, with numbers that would make it top ten now. Yet there are few MMOs now that retain numbers like that past a few months now. Cryptic said they were hoping for 200k... for Star Trek??? Really?
If SWG was a failure and their solution to fix it was the NGE, years after launch, then pretty much every game out now minus 2 or 3, are HUGE failures.
And we know that's not true, no matter what people say. Every company would be out of business if that was the case. With the NGE, they risked losing more subs, something that was already happening anyways, the game was long payed for. They gambled to trade the vets for WoW players and lost. And the game is still around now. I don't like it, but its certainly not a financial failure, or they would have pulled the plug ages ago.
I completely disagree with the OP as well, it has nothing to do with the lore.
This is the best post on this subject in ages. Well done.
I have no idea why the two camps demonize each other, and argue over ridiculous points endlessly. Taking your advice, assuming people understand your points, most SWG vets will likely enjoy SWTOR. My favorite MMO was SWG for sure thus far, and I know I will enjoy SWTOR. The approach is different, thats all.
Does it have things I do not like? Sure does, as did SWG. And I think this is probably the norm. The angry vets are exaggerated. It seems to me that it is the same 10 people attacking the game, with the same people defending it over and over again. I would bet the same 20 people are responsible for at least 40% of the posts in this section of the forums.
You don't need to experience the game, there is more than enough information out for you to decide if the playstyle is for you. And the style is obvious, and will not change before or after launch.
My premise is that SWG was a poor product because it didn't capitalize on the potential market well at all. WoW came out a year later just about and was far, far more successful even with a less powerful IP (not that Warcraft isn't popular, but Star Wars blows it out of the water). From a design standpoint it was a poor use of the IP since it didn't give very many Star Wars fans what they actually wanted, which is one of the reasons it didn't have great retention at any point during its life. It is important to bear in mind here that "a product that generates some net profit" is NOT the same thing as a product that is financial successful. Businesses can and do stop plants, products, etc that ARE profitable because they are not profitable enough. In this manner, SWG was a financial failure, imho (and I think you'd get the same answer from whomever was in charge of SWG financially if you got a frank conversation out of them).
One could make a similar argument for...LOTRO, I think that's about it. LOTRO is at a bit of a disadvantage though since its IP, though very popular, has many similarities to WoW which had come before. Hence it had a market disadvantage. Still, I'd say LOTRO had a number of other factors that made it not so great. Combat controls were worse than WoW, for instance (less responsive for one). If some of those problems hadn't been present upon release, I think it would have done a lot better. Still LOTRO is a complicated case.
It's funny because I think you touched on what I thought happened to SWG. I am not going to argue any of your points, they are well spoken for, and even though I disagree still, there is no point to carry it on.
But the way you worded the failure, SOE could not have known SWG was a 'failure' until AFTER WoW came out. Prior to this, their sub numbers were excellent within the market of that time. And the numbers actually grew for the first 7 months.
My point though, starts with the state of SWG. As everyone knows, it was a freakin mess at launch. Bugs were everywhere, lag, you name it. You could walk around and see that they hadn't finished things in the game, with entire caves empty. It was the general consensus that the game was released way too early, even Koster said this later on.
So to me, related to what you said, all the major changes, which were supposed to be fixes for all the problems, turned into amendments and game altering things. The CU was not the original design, there was no loot in the game really in the beginning and there is no need to discuss the NGE. I personally got tired of waiting for things to be fixed. We always ended up with new things we didn't expect or ask for. So we got tired and left, some going to WoW itself.
So at that point, I can agree with you that SOE was not satisfied with the games potential, and all the horrible changes were an attempt to catch WoW numbers, which was a market they were not aware of when the game came out.
In this sense, I guess its true that the game was failing SOE, even if they didn't know this to be true prior to WoW. I still maintain that the game did not fail Star Wars fans, simply because we were already very used to terrible Lucas Arts games, minus a precious few gems here and there. In my opinion. WoW brought in many new players, most of which could not care less about Star Wars, or virtual worlds for that matter.
Just to add for some relevance, SWTOR will likely have no issues like this. It doesn't matter what people think of the game design, it will likely be very solid and run very well, which is what started the whole mess that was SWG in my opinion.
I dislied Star Wars, I thought it was some overrated crap with magic and sci-fi swords, stupid droids etc, even though I've watched episodes 4-6 and I enjoyed sci-fi. That was until I tried sw:kotor (I was bored that day and it had a good rating, so I asked: why not?), thats when my opinion changed. I liked it, actually loved it. I also enjoyed jedi academy, but other than these other SW games werent that great. So if SW fans think that kotor isnt part of SW, then all I can do is to spit on you and your vanilla SW.
IZI MODO?! Ha-ha-ha!
I don't think that's the whole truth, even if SWG players didn't notice it that much, the game was bleeding subs already, and that only became more and faster when EQ2 and more importantly WoW came out. They had decreased from a 300k to a bit over 200k before NGE and losing thousands and thousands more subs per month.
Of course 200k subs was and is still good, but it's understandable that they wanted to turn the tide, because the trail they were on was going downhill fast.
It's good to know that one of the good SW games was KOTOR, and that Bioware who made it is also the company that makes SW:TOR. Further it's good to realise that there's a difference between Star Wars fans and SWG fans, they aren't the same: there are SW fans who very much disliked SWG and there are SWG fans who very much dislike SW:TOR and who won't touch another Star Wars MMO if it isn't like SWG was.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Lol. Well, not to me, unless you start moping about SWG and keep on ranting against SOE and NGE and keep on wishing that SW:TOR would be SWG2 and faulting it vehemently when it becomes apparent with every newsbit that it'll be its own game, and not a SWG2.
But you didn't. In fact, I found your explanations refreshingly balanced and well thought out
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Cleary, because it's not like someone who was actually playing the game through the events in question would have any clue about the timeline or order in which they happened. (or that there was a massive amount of ass-covering by said devs going on after the NGE flopped or anything)
But there really isn't any pont in arguing it now, Ohatro nailed it - SWG was not a 'failure' by any prior measure of the industry before WoW; Even after WoW there was (and IS) no evidence to support the belief that a SW MMO "should" have WoW-like subscription numbers. No other western market MMO has even approached WoWs numbers since, regardless of genre.
SWTOR may change that, but the market has grown and changed a lot since then and SWTOR is a very different game from the ground up than SWG ever was.
The 'swap' to the NGE was a leap of faith based on an unfounded belief that the IP 'should' have been able to generate more subscriptions.
Funny enough, I am not much of a Star Wars fan either. I only played Kotor because I enjoyed Bioware's other games as well. Knights of the Old Republic (Kotor) is simply a great game.
It sold a million copies, and only retained 300k. The million copies it did sell proves that it "can" have WoW like numbers.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Well my first game for BW was KOTOR2 actually, i only picked up the game because i liked that you could choose to be good or evil (Okay dark side or light side same dang thing really), and as i like almost every game or at least try every game that boost this. I tried this one as well. I was delighted that it had a great story to go right along with it. Tried a few other BW games and got the same feeling (good/evil with good story) so now i'm going to keep buying BW games until they disappoint. my interest in this game has very little to do with SW, sure it's a nice place but my roots lie in the story telling and BW track record more then the SW history.
No reason to think BW won't bring out a good product unless they start doing that. To think a company is going to do a 360 (edit: i meant to type 180, 360 is a complete circle) on you all of a sudden doesn't make any sense to me. So until they do i'm a loyal fan i guess. This very well could have been set anywhere and i would have bought it. Connections to SWG or SW in general make no difference to me.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Only if you are trying to claim that WoW has retained every customer it sold a box to as well...which it hasn't.
Every game that has ever launched or will ever launch sold more boxes than it kept as long term subs.
SWG was a failure in SOE's eyes.
They not only spent a ton more money to make it than they did on EQ, they also had LA to pay for the IP license, and yet at its zenith it only reached 300k subs....150k less then EQ1 was carrying. Not only did it only top out at 300k, but began to fall a few months after launch.
Failure is an understatement for one of the most recognizable IPs around.
Had SWG been EQ1 in space, I have little doubt it would of taken the MMO world by storm. Even more so if they lessened the required time spent ala WoW.
TOR will smash SWG numbers by providing adventure, instead of the economic sim that Koster made.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
SWG fans are saying that TOR isn't Star Wars? That's the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I doubt it was a failure in SOE's eyes but I also doubt they thought it would last 7 years when they started it. Simply put, they still make money from it and haven't lost a dime against the development costs. And, in business (which is all they seem to be about), that's a winner.
7 years it's been around and still has players across multiple servers. Using just a few baseline stats -- assume a flat 7 years at $10 a year per person with 55k users... 6.6 mill a year... $46.2 million. That's without the startup sales and any/all other sales across it's 7 year life. Back when it was started, MMO's were rolling out for less than $10 million.
We definately have a different idea of 'failure' with the above LOWBALLING numbers.
As for will TOR be a smash or crash and burn, that'll be a wait and see.
The thing isn't even out yet so there's no way to know what the hell it'll be like. Just remember the early days of WoW for an idea: Rogues = "god mode" for any PvP. The videos of rogues running around totally naked, using 1cp daggers, killing anyone they could jump in the top/best gear... Problem. Mining was a problem with many nodes that you would get stuck at. Couldn't fight, couldn't stand, etc... You had to Alt-F4 out of the game and come back in to free up from that bug and it took 6 months to fix it yet that game kept going and growing.
There's a lot of potential for thid game but they have really changed a lot of current MMO things with this voice overlay gig.
A HUGE amount of the current MMO player base play MP3's or chat on ventrilo/teamspeak while playing so have their game's sound turned off. Bio has 'workarounds' for not using sound but that is supposedly a major portion of the game so it'll be interesting to see how important that will be to the player base.
As for other features... Again, lets look at WoW. PvP ranking systems, based at first upon world PvP, were released months AFTER the games release and shortly before they came out with battlegrounds. When the BG's came out, many world PvP players through fits talking about how "world PvP is now dead", etc... So rather important/familiar things to many players CAN be introduced months or even years after a games release (try cross-server BG's in WoW -- try 25 user 'top' raid sizes, etc...)
What will happen with this game? Too many questions and too few answers that can be found until AFTER it is released and people see if they are willing to go through the "we didn't know..." "that wasn't really spotted..." and "you were told!" comments/discoveries. If it's a sound game that folks like, it'll grow. If it's not... It'll fade back down and many will go "NEXT!".