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Ex RTW employee speaks about APB

LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

And again. On the risk of being warned for trolling. I bring the raw truth about APB , and why it has failed.

Note this text was posted by an ex-employee of Real Time Worlds (he didnt work on APB but on MyWorld - the game that is now cancelled due to APB failure)

Note also that he claims that buisness model (subs) was the main reason the game failed. Same thing i was saying here over and over...

Enjoy :

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/16/redundancies-at-real-time-worlds/#comment-491791

What a fucking mess. I’m ex-RTW.

An outcome like this wasn’t desired by anyone at RTW, but game development is a weird business. A game can play poorly right up until only a few months before release, for a variety of reasons – Crackdown was awful right up until a month or two before it came out (some would say awful afterwards, too, but I’m trying to make a point :). Knowing this, it can blind you to a game’s imperfections – or lead you to think it’s going to come right by release. You end up in this situation where you’re heads down working your ass off, not well able to critically assess your own product. APB itself only really came together technically relatively late in its development cycle (and it still obviously has problems), leaving too little time for content production and polish, and lacking any real quality in some of its core mechanics (shooting / driving). It’s not that the team was unaware of these huge issues, but a million little things conspire to prevent you from being able to do anything about them. It can seem difficult to comprehend, it certainly was for me before entering the industry – ‘How did those idiots get X wrong in game Y?’. No team sets out to ship something anything less than perfection, but projects can evolve in ways that no one seems to be in total control of. All that said, it was pretty clear to me that the game was going to get a kicking at review – the gap between expectation and the reality was huge. I wasn’t on the APB team, so I played it infrequently, during internal test days etc. I was genuinely shocked when I played the release candidate – I couldn’t believe Dave J would be willing to release this. All the issues that had driven me nuts about it were still there – the driving was poor (server-authoritative with no apparent client prediction, ergo horrendously lag intolerant), combat impact-less, and I found the performance of the game sub-par on what was a high-spec dev machine.

But the real killer, IMO, is the business model. This was out of the team’s hands. The game has issues, but I think if you separate the business model from the game itself, it holds up at least a little better. A large scale team based shooter, in big urban environments, with unprecedented customisation and some really cool, original features. The problem was that management looked at the revenue they wanted to generate and priced accordingly, failing to realise (or care) that there are literally a dozen top quality, subscription free team based shooters. Many of which, now, have progression and persistence of some sort – for free. The game would have been immeasurably better received it had simply been a boxed product, with paid-for in-game items, IMO. This may not have been possible, given what was spent on the game and the running costs, but the market is tough. You can’t simply charge what you feel like earning and hope the paying public will agree with your judgement of value. Many of us within RTW were extremely nervous at APB’s prospects long before launch, and with good reason, as it turns out.

They also failed spectacularly to manage expectations. When Dave J spoke out saying there would ‘not be a standard subscription model’, he unwittingly set expectations at ‘free to play’. When it’s announced that we’re essentially pay-per-hour, we get absolutely killed in the press, somewhat understandably. The game also announced far too early (though it kept being delayed), and had little to show but customisation for what seemed like years, largely because internally we (correctly) judged it to be the stand out part of the game. But we should have kept our powder dry. Our PR felt tired and dragged on and on, rather than building a short, sharp crescendo of excitement pre-release. We also went to beta far too early, wiser heads were ignored when it was pointed out that any kind of beta, even very early beta, might as well be public as far as generating word of mouth. The real purpose of beta is publicity, not bug fixing. We never took that lesson on board. We also made the error of not releasing fixes externally to many of the issues early beta testers were picking up, keeping the fixes on internal builds, I presume to lessen the load on QA. This simply meant that to early beta testers, it looked as though we were never bothering to fix the issues they found, when in fact, they were being fixed, simply being deployed back into beta very infrequently. This lesson was eventually learnt, but only after we’d pissed off a large number of early-adopters.

The sheer time spent and money it took to make APB is really a product of fairly directionless creative leadership. Certainly Dave J has great, strong, ambitious ideas for his games. But he’s a big believer in letting the details emerge along the way, rather than being planned out beyond even a rudimentary form. For most of the lifetime of APB, he was also CEO of the whole company, as well as Creative Director. His full attention was not there until it late in the day. This has ramifications for how long his projects run – many years, on average – and the associated cost. This, in turn, means that the business model options were constrained, conspiring to place APB in a really difficult position, commercially. Ultimately, it’s this pairing of a subscription model cost with free to play game play that really did for the game. And many of us saw it coming a mile off. I must admit I’m dismayed about the scale of the failure, however. Many of us thought APB might do OK at retail and sell a few hundred thousand, though struggle on ongoing revenue, and gradually carve a niche. But it absolutely tanked at retail I believe (though I’m not privvy to figures) I think due to the critical mauling it received. It never made the top 20 of the all format UK chart. It’s scraping along the bottom of the PC-only chart, a situation I’m assuming is replicated in its major markets. And being at the bottom of the PC-only chart is not where you want to be as a AAA budget game. God knows what the budget was, but when you account for the 150-odd staff and all the launch hardware and support, it was in the tens of millions of dollars.

MyWorld is an innocent bystander caught up in the demise of APB. Which is a real shame, because it is genuinely ground breaking, though not aimed at the traditional gamer audience. It was going great guns over the last year or so, coming on leaps and bounds, impressing everyone who saw it. MyWorld might as well have been a different company – there was very little staff overlap on the two projects, they worked under entirely different production methodologies, and because we were not the next in line for release we received very little attention from the execs (which was a good thing, to be honest). We knew that time was limited, and tried to encourage management to go the ‘google-style beta route – release a limited, but polished core feature set early, and iterate. What happens to it from here on out is not clear, but without the people who wrote it, the code isn’t worth a damn, so I can’t see the project being picked up. Management tried to get a publisher onboard to fund continued development, but the time scales involved meant that was always unlikely, despite some considerable interest from potential partners. God knows what will happen to it now the team are gone. Probably nothing. Years of my life were poured into that project, but it was a blast to make, and at least it was made public so I can point and say, “I helped make that”.

RTW tried something bold, and fucked it up. It tried to make what amounted to two MMOs at once, as well as self-publish. I have to hand it to Dave J. He’s ballsy. But in the end, we couldn’t do it, and I think the whole company will go under sooner rather than later. It’s a shame, too, as Dundee can’t absorb the level of game dev redundancies that are about to hit, which means the Dundee scene gets that little bit smaller. But that’s the price of failure, and we certainly failed. No excuses, really. We were well funded, hired some great engineers, designers and artists, and great QA guys. Ultimately, the senior management team must take responsibility. I think they had far too much focus on the company’s ‘strategic direction’ and not enough on day-to-day execution, which was where it really matters. And I think a huge part of the blame lies with Dave J, though I can’t emphasize enough how nice a man he is personally; ultimately APB has torpedoed the company, and it failed largely under his creative leadership. It has other issues (technical, for instance), but the design and the business plan are largely down to him and the board, and they are what have failed so irrevocably for the rest of us.

ExRTW

 

 



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Comments

  • BeermanglerBeermangler Member UncommonPosts: 402

    For those about to fail-because-they-don't-learn-from-past-mistakes-of-others

    We salute you!

    Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662

    Have nothing to say cause like been said in that paragraph is why I didn't bother with the game but anyways.

    If you don't want ppl to report you for trolling (some are too sensitive I know) you should put a link from were you got that I'm just saying it for you :)


  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

    True...



  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    Interesting, a dev that didnt work on APB at all seems to have a lot to say about it! lol

     

    However, I'm quite excited about this actually.  If this guy thinks that APB is technically poor now, I look forward to what it will be like when its better.

     

    As it stands this is the ONLY mmo in the past several years thats kept me addicted for nearly 3 months now.  I know people dont feel the same, but for me personally its the best game I've played, literally in years.

     

    The fact that they have dropped MYWorld is brilliant,  sucks for those being made reduandant, and they have of course lashed out with comments like these above.. but hey, he's just lost his job, he probably has a wife and family to support I dont blame him.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219

    Feed-back from the makers of failed and successful mmo's is always worth reading, and especially sobering in this case.

  • Honeymoon69Honeymoon69 Member Posts: 647

    not very shocking, sounds like every mmo that came the last 4 yrs. $$$ first game quality last.

  • PieRadPieRad Member Posts: 1,108

    Can't help but smile, cause I'm usually not one to run around and scream "DOOM", but I did with this game, and yet, people still pointed their fat fingers at me and praised APB to the skies, so many little things wrong with APB, it was kinda obvious that this was gonna happen.

     

    But thanks for posting Lobo, good read.

    image

  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Feed-back from the makers of failed and successful mmo's is always worth reading, and especially sobering in this case.

    The guy clearly states that he had nothing to do with the development of APB, so this isnt feedback from a 'maker' at all.

     

    Its just a rant from a disgruntled employee who's lost his job.  Some of the things he says we know to be un-true, so he dis-credits himself a lot...

     

    Still these kind of articles, wether they be true or not are very damaging, and thats the only point to this.

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Feed-back from the makers of failed and successful mmo's is always worth reading, and especially sobering in this case.

    The guy clearly states that he had nothing to do with the development of APB, so this isnt feedback from a 'maker' at all.

     

    Its just a rant from a disgruntled employee who's lost his job.  Some of the things he says we know to be un-true, so he dis-credits himself a lot...

    We know ? Who are those "we" with special knowledge of APB ?

     

    Still these kind of articles, wether they be true or not are very damaging, and thats the only point to this.

    Very damaging to whom ? Again you talk as you yourself are somehow involved in production of APB ?



  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Feed-back from the makers of failed and successful mmo's is always worth reading, and especially sobering in this case.

    The guy clearly states that he had nothing to do with the development of APB, so this isnt feedback from a 'maker' at all.

     

    Its just a rant from a disgruntled employee who's lost his job.  Some of the things he says we know to be un-true, so he dis-credits himself a lot...

     

    Still these kind of articles, wether they be true or not are very damaging, and thats the only point to this.

    You're correct, he's not one of the "makers" per se, but I assume he's talking off the company grapevine?

    You're also right to be concerned that this is bad PR, and intentionally so, but I think that's an assumption there's a personal agenda here, it does not read like that to me, more an observable dissappointment in commercial success and backstory on that?

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

    All in all, i dont think above text is any more damaging to ABP than their current situation. If anyting , its even apolegetic. For its explaining most of mistakes , and why did they happened.

    Lessons learned. Maybe RTW could turn the tables ?



  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Very damaging to whom ? Again you talk as you yourself are somehow involved in production of APB ?

    If indeed these comments are genuine, then try to consider the reason for them.

     

    You dont "come out" and say such damning and slanderous things about an organisation for the sake of truth, you say them to damage the reputation of said organisation.   Thats the only possible reason!   What kind of person do you think he is after reading this?  Does integrity mean nothing to him?

     

    This person has lost his job and will no doubt be seeking employment elsewhere.  so what do you think a prospective employer would think about this individual and the irresponsible way he has behaved after emplyoment termination?  He's just lost his job, do you really think someone would sabotage his own future for the sake of a few comments just days after?

     

    I have no affiliation with RTW but I am an employer and do operate a succesfull business in the UK, as such I am person who pays attention to facts and details.

    They are being made reduant!  i'm very well aware of the laws in the UK around Redundancy and termination of emplyoment.   He is currenty going through what is known as the 'consulation period' which goes on for no less than 30 days.  during this 30 days he is still bound by the terms of his contract.   So if these comments were true not only does he risk being fired for breach of contract he risks never working in the games industry for several years to come.

     

  • TarkaTarka Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,662

    Interesting read, certainly echos other MMO launches and the responses from the devs on the lines of "peoples expectations where far higher than the devs could provide", which is PR bullshit for "we hyped our game using our own legacy and it bit us in the ass".

    If you are going to make a "drive around a city shooting stuff" game and you don't want people to compare it to other similar games then don't make it so similar!  And certainly don't try to hype it based on the fact that it was YOU who created the franchise of the similar game in the first place!

  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    APB was never really 'hyped up' at all,  the only hype it got was being classified as an MMO, which is entirly wrong really.

    There is no PvE in APB at all and you can sell in-game money for game-time points...  nearly everyone I know has got something like 6 months worth of game time.  lol.   Not at MMO at all really...   and yes, for most people it IS Free To play.

     

    i'll give you some numbers;

     

    I sell 5k gold on the auction for about 30 RTW points.  400 points is 30 days unlimited time.  I make 5k gold everytime I sell some patterns ive made or some items...   thats before you consider that in game you make about 5k an hour.

    currently I have about 500k, which is not a lot really.

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    Originally posted by Lobotomist


    Very damaging to whom ? Again you talk as you yourself are somehow involved in production of APB ?

    If indeed these comments are genuine, then try to consider the reason for them.

     

    You dont "come out" and say such damning and slanderous things about an organisation for the sake of truth, you say them to damage the reputation of said organisation.   Thats the only possible reason!   What kind of person do you think he is after reading this?  Does integrity mean nothing to him?

     

    This person has lost his job and will no doubt be seeking employment elsewhere.  so what do you think a prospective employer would think about this individual and the irresponsible way he has behaved after emplyoment termination?  He's just lost his job, do you really think someone would sabotage his own future for the sake of a few comments just days after?

     

    I have no affiliation with RTW but I am an employer and do operate a succesfull business in the UK, as such I am person who pays attention to facts and details.

    They are being made reduant!  i'm very well aware of the laws in the UK around Redundancy and termination of emplyoment.   He is currenty going through what is known as the 'consulation period' which goes on for no less than 30 days.  during this 30 days he is still bound by the terms of his contract.   So if these comments were true not only does he risk being fired for breach of contract he risks never working in the games industry for several years to come.

     

    It should be obvious that i do not subscribe to this "OBEY YOUR SUPERIOURS" mindset.

    The constitution itself gives us the freedom of speech. Which seedy corporate contract deny us. And you say yes to that?

    The sad thing is that he as the worker gave all his love to the project. Which after that failed due to stupid decision of some executive that does not know the thing about gaming. That probably didnt  even play the game for more than 10 minutes , and dont know a thing about the competition , except what he saw in a spreadsheet.

    Now that worker is fired, while the executive is still getting his fat paycheck.

    That is the sad truth. And that are the people ruining our games.

    And you expect the poor worker that had his life work ruined. To shut up about it ?

    If anything he was to mild...

     



  • Honeymoon69Honeymoon69 Member Posts: 647

    yeah it was hyped up by those role players wannabee, they keep telling ppl how they are going to role play this awesome badazz game.   Funny dont see them around anymore lol.

     

  • TarkaTarka Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,662

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    APB was never really 'hyped up' at all,  the only hype it got was being classified as an MMO, which is entirly wrong really.

     Watch the videos of the demos at the shows and the crap being spouted.  "Remember, this game is being made by the creators of GTA!!!"

    If that ain't hyping your game off your own legacy, then I don't know what is.  What did they honestly think people were going to think when they saw APB for the first time? 

    The creators of the original GTA making a game based in a 3D city scape where you can run around shooting people and driving cars.  Sounds an awful lot like the successors to that first GTA game.  So it was inevitable that certain comparisons are made and expectations are created.

    The problem is that just like all the other MMO's that had good PR departments and ended up with low sub levels after 6 months, they can all "talk the talk" but their product cannot "walk the walk".

     

    I do agree though that APB isn't an MMO.  It's more like the multiplayer feature found in single player games.  And, like the ex-employee suggests, should perhaps have been marketed that way.

  • gothagotha Member UncommonPosts: 1,074

    People might want to blame this guy for bad PR and damaging the companies rep,  but when push comes to shove the main thing that damages the companies rep is the game itself.  Worst this guys comments can do is add fuel to an already raging well fueled fire.

     

    Judging by how things are going with the company it definitely looks like they severely mismanaged themselves.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770

    Funny, I was thinking of posting the same news after reading it but Lobotomist beat me to it :/

  • ojustabooojustaboo Member UncommonPosts: 65

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    Originally posted by Lobotomist


    Very damaging to whom ? Again you talk as you yourself are somehow involved in production of APB ?

    If indeed these comments are genuine, then try to consider the reason for them.

     

    You dont "come out" and say such damning and slanderous things about an organisation for the sake of truth, you say them to damage the reputation of said organisation.   Thats the only possible reason!   What kind of person do you think he is after reading this?  Does integrity mean nothing to him?

     

    This person has lost his job and will no doubt be seeking employment elsewhere.  so what do you think a prospective employer would think about this individual and the irresponsible way he has behaved after emplyoment termination?  He's just lost his job, do you really think someone would sabotage his own future for the sake of a few comments just days after?

     

    I have no affiliation with RTW but I am an employer and do operate a succesfull business in the UK, as such I am person who pays attention to facts and details.

    They are being made reduant!  i'm very well aware of the laws in the UK around Redundancy and termination of emplyoment.   He is currenty going through what is known as the 'consulation period' which goes on for no less than 30 days.  during this 30 days he is still bound by the terms of his contract.   So if these comments were true not only does he risk being fired for breach of contract he risks never working in the games industry for several years to come.

     

    I disagree.

    Time and time again employees are getting sick to death of modern day management being in a world of their own, ignoring all advice from their employees no matter how blatantly obvious such advice is.

    If I was in that exemployees position I would have posted something similar, not to try to ruin the company further, but to vent my frustration at being without a job when had the management had an ounce of common sense, I would still be working.  A lot of modern day managers think they are better (not just more qualified, if indeed that is the case) than people lower down the chain and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge if they've been shown to be going down a futile route that will damage the company.

    There's many many many employees out there that have worked in various companies for the last 20+ years that could if they want constantly say "I told you so" every 6 monsth to their bosses.  Some do and when they do, get the usual "lets look towards the future and solving the problem" type talk.  This is especially frustrating for those that don't get paid overtime but due to their bosses arrogance, are expected to work weekends and all hours of the night sorting out problems they could see a mile off.

    It gets to the point where someone posts something like this, not in the hope to pull the company down further, but as a plead to other companies not to follow suit, and I applaud them for doing so, I wish more people did so.

  • causscauss Member UncommonPosts: 666

    Well, I support this game 'till server are shut down. Love the concept.

  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Originally posted by ojustaboo

    Originally posted by sadeyx


    Originally posted by Lobotomist


    Very damaging to whom ? Again you talk as you yourself are somehow involved in production of APB ?

    If indeed these comments are genuine, then try to consider the reason for them.

     

    You dont "come out" and say such damning and slanderous things about an organisation for the sake of truth, you say them to damage the reputation of said organisation.   Thats the only possible reason!   What kind of person do you think he is after reading this?  Does integrity mean nothing to him?

     

    This person has lost his job and will no doubt be seeking employment elsewhere.  so what do you think a prospective employer would think about this individual and the irresponsible way he has behaved after emplyoment termination?  He's just lost his job, do you really think someone would sabotage his own future for the sake of a few comments just days after?

     

    I have no affiliation with RTW but I am an employer and do operate a succesfull business in the UK, as such I am person who pays attention to facts and details.

    They are being made reduant!  i'm very well aware of the laws in the UK around Redundancy and termination of emplyoment.   He is currenty going through what is known as the 'consulation period' which goes on for no less than 30 days.  during this 30 days he is still bound by the terms of his contract.   So if these comments were true not only does he risk being fired for breach of contract he risks never working in the games industry for several years to come.

     

    I disagree.

    Time and time again employees are getting sick to death of modern day management being in a world of their own, ignoring all advice from their employees no matter how blatantly obvious such advice is.

    If I was in that exemployees position I would have posted something similar, not to try to ruin the company further, but to vent my frustration at being without a job when had the management had an ounce of common sense, I would still be working.  A lot of modern day managers think they are better (not just more qualified, if indeed that is the case) than people lower down the chain and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge if they've been shown to be going down a futile route that will damage the company.

    There's many many many employees out there that have worked in various companies for the last 20+ years that could if they want constantly say "I told you so" every 6 monsth to their bosses.  Some do and when they do, get the usual "lets look towards the future and solving the problem" type talk.  This is especially frustrating for those that don't get paid overtime but due to their bosses arrogance, are expected to work weekends and all hours of the night sorting out problems they could see a mile off.

    It gets to the point where someone posts something like this, not in the hope to pull the company down further, but as a plead to other companies not to follow suit, and I applaud them for doing so, I wish more people did so.

    I blame the work culture we live in, you most likely live in a democratic country based on freedom, freedom of speach and equality yet companies work like a totalitary system.

    You are not allowed to critise, whistleblowers are ostracised, you are suppose to stay "positive and smile". Shut up and do what you are told or you will get fired and will have bad references.

    Welcome back to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Soviet Union.

    Not a first company going boost from that reason, heh I would even say that the present recession was hugely caused by that working culture. Short sighed chase of fast, risky profits, our present working culture and CEOs getting paid 100 times more then actual work force. A perfect recipe for a major disaster and being disconnect from the reality.

  • MarLMarL Member UncommonPosts: 606

    I think the article is dead on. The subscription model killed the game. I dont care if everyone is playing for free via trades, it isnt free.

    Let me say that i bought and play apb and i like it, but anyone who has played it can say that someone fed up big time.

    With a 50-100 million dollar budget there is way to little content in this game. (not talking pve, but clan stuff or actually hacking like neocrons or something)

    Also there hype machine screwed up or flat out lied. Before the game went to beta it was goign to be a f2p, not level based game, without grinds,  where you can jump in a few hours and still win, with clan based territory conflict. None of that is in the game.

    Im not sure if its eas fault or mr dave jones, but someone has no buisness in the mmo game buisness. I hope whoever picks it up will make it work.

    Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7

  • ShredderSEShredderSE Member Posts: 197

    Sure it's not a MMORPG. But it don't cost that much for 30 days. And when I find a great group of people and do missions with them... I do not care if we do same missions over and over again. When I'm having fun I don't care.

    And the new Patch 1.4.1 sounds great and it looks like they ARE working on the game.

    I support it until they pull the plug. I'm still having fun!

  • woggiewoggie Member UncommonPosts: 13

    So if they pull the plug, what are the chances someone else could pick up the game and make it f2p like it was expected to be?

    If fans wanted to pick up a failed game and run with it, would that cost millions, thousands, or hundreds?

    Mainly just curious.

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