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Limited Species to Human-like because of Story.

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  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    ...

    The personal stories reveal details about what is going on in the game and relate to the universe as a whole.

    ...

    Just want to address this one little snippet...

    If the personal stories are only there to act as story telling devices for the game universe... then why are they personal stories?

    A personal story is supposed to be about a character adapting and developing due to experiencing hardship. While this is fine and dandy to do in a single player game where you only really have one or a handful of finite characters, this works. When you're slathering it over the masses... not so much, because then the masses go through the cookie cutter story you're forcing them through.

    The more I read about how this "story" element is going, the less impressed I am. It sounds to me like if bioware made the remade SWG, every character would start out as an orphaned teenager growing up with his or her moisture farming aunt and uncle on Tatooine.

    Now, I could be wrong, but I really don't see how Bioware would concievably manage indepth story without their linear story telling ways.

    If you don't like Bioware's RPGs, then you probably won't like TOR.  If you do like them, then you probably will.

    Anyhow, there are indications the stories will perhaps be more expansive than what you might get out of a random Bioware RPG.  Is there going to be a progression though?  Sure.   If you play through twice with the same class, will the personal stories have a lot of similar elements?  Sure (just like any Bioware game if you play through twice).  If you like story and making meaningful story decsions, this sort of thing isn't a problem.  If you hate story and don't like it, then you probably won't like TOR.

    Again, this is a HUGE step forward for MMOs, even if there will be some odd fridge logic as a result given people of the same class having overly similar personal stories.  That's a heck of a lot better than having zero story, and far, far, far better than anything we've seen to date.

    Best I can tell you either want something that's probably not technically possible in an MMO yet, no story, or a sandbox (which is a better varient of "no story").  TOR has never pretended to be delivering any of these things.  If you want an MMO that has a lot of themepark elements and gives you story choices rather than the pure railroading that LOTRO, WoW, and all other themeparks have, then TOR is an excellent step forward though.  (It will also have some sandpark elements if you choose to explore, they have said, but I would not bet on anything major here -- probably better than what other themeparks have given how the devs have talked though; the worlds are certainly open and explorable).

    As for the farmer thing.  I saw a clear shot of character creation and you pick a background for your character, for what it is worth.

    Now, on the other hand, perhaps GW2 will be what you want more.  I think the stories will in a sense be more open, but I have the feeling they won't have as much depth.  Hard to say at this point.

    Anyhow, this conversation is starting to go in circles, I think.   Perhaps you should state if any MMO has ever given you want you want, and if not how do you expect TOR to suddenly do it.

  • RageaholRageahol Member UncommonPosts: 1,126

    Originally posted by MMOman101

    Originally posted by needalife214


    Originally posted by Elikal

    Thats the BIGGEST LOAD of BULLSHIT I have heard in years!

    Human players can't play aliens because they can't identify enough? Well why did people play Bothans or Mon Calamari or Wookiee in SWG, why did people play Ratonga or Sarnath in Everquest 2, why do you many request to play Droid in SWTOR?

    I mean WTF? This sort of explanation is just a big heap of horsedung! Sorry to be gross... but maybe THEIR imagination is so narrow. And ok, playing a blob or an intelligent ocean is difficult. But damnation, a Sci-Fi setting like STAR WARS has so many aliens which people would want to play, how in the 23 names of the devil can you get a huge, fantastic IP like STAR WARS and then puke out such a frigging stream of crap!

    I mean LOOK at what sort of characters people made when their imagination is free! Look at Champions Online or City of Heroes! People create ugly devils, robots, bizarre aliens, furries and whatnot! And they identify with it perfectly happy!!!

    Dammit... THIS is it? We are getting HUMANS like in DAMN STAR TREK of 1960ies because you can write your ROMANCEs for everyone? I DON'T THE HELL BELIEVE IT.

    NAILED IT!

    This simple fact that races that have been playable in many of the other star wars games are not playable here is just plain stupid. 

    150 million dollars and i can not play a DAMN MON CALAMARI !

    it really makes me shake my head.   SAD FACE 

    I played a short fat MON CALAMAR in SWG. 

    I think it is a voice acting issue. 

    maybe  but Mon Calaramari as a race adopted Basic (english) as a commonly spoken language among themselves as well as other races.

    They Fit too much for being left out. yeah I have seen the videos where the Mon Calamari general is talking to his troops IN BASIC and they are built similar to humans. 

    this sort of limitation (even if it is for the story's purpose) is wrong for MMOs

    image

  • JetrpgJetrpg Member UncommonPosts: 2,347

    I want to be ackbar. And run around spamming , its a trap.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by Ceridith


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    ...

    The personal stories reveal details about what is going on in the game and relate to the universe as a whole.

    ...

    Just want to address this one little snippet...

    If the personal stories are only there to act as story telling devices for the game universe... then why are they personal stories?

    A personal story is supposed to be about a character adapting and developing due to experiencing hardship. While this is fine and dandy to do in a single player game where you only really have one or a handful of finite characters, this works. When you're slathering it over the masses... not so much, because then the masses go through the cookie cutter story you're forcing them through.

    The more I read about how this "story" element is going, the less impressed I am. It sounds to me like if bioware made the remade SWG, every character would start out as an orphaned teenager growing up with his or her moisture farming aunt and uncle on Tatooine.

    Now, I could be wrong, but I really don't see how Bioware would concievably manage indepth story without their linear story telling ways.

    If you don't like Bioware's RPGs, then you probably won't like TOR.  If you do like them, then you probably will.

    Anyhow, there are indications the stories will perhaps be more expansive than what you might get out of a random Bioware RPG.  Is there going to be a progression though?  Sure.   If you play through twice with the same class, will the personal stories have a lot of similar elements?  Sure (just like any Bioware game if you play through twice).  If you like story and making meaningful story decsions, this sort of thing isn't a problem.  If you hate story and don't like it, then you probably won't like TOR.

    Again, this is a HUGE step forward for MMOs, even if there will be some odd fridge logic as a result given people of the same class having overly similar personal stories.  That's a heck of a lot better than having zero story, and far, far, far better than anything we've seen to date.

    Best I can tell you either want something that's probably not technically possible in an MMO yet, no story, or a sandbox (which is a better varient of "no story").  TOR has never pretended to be delivering any of these things.  If you want an MMO that has a lot of themepark elements and gives you story choices rather than the pure railroading that LOTRO, WoW, and all other themeparks have, then TOR is an excellent step forward though.  (It will also have some sandpark elements if you choose to explore, they have said, but I would not bet on anything major here -- probably better than what other themeparks have given how the devs have talked though; the worlds are certainly open and explorable).

    As for the farmer thing.  I saw a clear shot of character creation and you pick a background for your character, for what it is worth.

    Now, on the other hand, perhaps GW2 will be what you want more.  I think the stories will in a sense be more open, but I have the feeling they won't have as much depth.  Hard to say at this point.

    Anyhow, this conversation is starting to go in circles, I think.   Perhaps you should state if any MMO has ever given you want you want, and if not how do you expect TOR to suddenly do it.

    Well see that's the thing. I don't mind Bioware's approach for single player RPGs, because it works. A single player RPG is about the main character with a centric story. It's mostly just an interactive story. You play the game, as the main character, the hero, and the story revolves around you.

    An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world. Every character should be personalized to the player, and with a fairly linear storyline arc, you can't quite pull that off.

    Basically, Bioware is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole by mashing their single player RPG design philosophies and trying to apply it into an MMO. That's why SWTOR isn't sitting right with me.

    It's Bioware's game and they can do what they want...  it's just a shame that yet another Star Wars MMO has to go the way of the linear themepark -- SWG turned into one with NGE.

    Which again, is why there's such a let down with regards to what races are playable, because with the choices so far, it's extremely limiting to what a number of people would like.

  • JetrpgJetrpg Member UncommonPosts: 2,347

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Ceridith


    Originally posted by Drachasor

    ...

    The personal stories reveal details about what is going on in the game and relate to the universe as a whole.

    ...

    Just want to address this one little snippet...

    If the personal stories are only there to act as story telling devices for the game universe... then why are they personal stories?

    A personal story is supposed to be about a character adapting and developing due to experiencing hardship. While this is fine and dandy to do in a single player game where you only really have one or a handful of finite characters, this works. When you're slathering it over the masses... not so much, because then the masses go through the cookie cutter story you're forcing them through.

    The more I read about how this "story" element is going, the less impressed I am. It sounds to me like if bioware made the remade SWG, every character would start out as an orphaned teenager growing up with his or her moisture farming aunt and uncle on Tatooine.

    Now, I could be wrong, but I really don't see how Bioware would concievably manage indepth story without their linear story telling ways.

    If you don't like Bioware's RPGs, then you probably won't like TOR.  If you do like them, then you probably will.

    Anyhow, there are indications the stories will perhaps be more expansive than what you might get out of a random Bioware RPG.  Is there going to be a progression though?  Sure.   If you play through twice with the same class, will the personal stories have a lot of similar elements?  Sure (just like any Bioware game if you play through twice).  If you like story and making meaningful story decsions, this sort of thing isn't a problem.  If you hate story and don't like it, then you probably won't like TOR.

    Again, this is a HUGE step forward for MMOs, even if there will be some odd fridge logic as a result given people of the same class having overly similar personal stories.  That's a heck of a lot better than having zero story, and far, far, far better than anything we've seen to date.

    Best I can tell you either want something that's probably not technically possible in an MMO yet, no story, or a sandbox (which is a better varient of "no story").  TOR has never pretended to be delivering any of these things.  If you want an MMO that has a lot of themepark elements and gives you story choices rather than the pure railroading that LOTRO, WoW, and all other themeparks have, then TOR is an excellent step forward though.  (It will also have some sandpark elements if you choose to explore, they have said, but I would not bet on anything major here -- probably better than what other themeparks have given how the devs have talked though; the worlds are certainly open and explorable).

    As for the farmer thing.  I saw a clear shot of character creation and you pick a background for your character, for what it is worth.

    Now, on the other hand, perhaps GW2 will be what you want more.  I think the stories will in a sense be more open, but I have the feeling they won't have as much depth.  Hard to say at this point.

    Anyhow, this conversation is starting to go in circles, I think.   Perhaps you should state if any MMO has ever given you want you want, and if not how do you expect TOR to suddenly do it.

    Well see that's the thing. I don't mind Bioware's approach for single player RPGs, because it works. A single player RPG is about the main character with a centric story. It's mostly just an interactive story. You play the game, as the main character, the hero, and the story revolves around you.

    An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world. Every character should be personalized to the player, and with a fairly linear storyline arc, you can't quite pull that off.

    Basically, Bioware is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole by mashing their single player RPG design philosophies and trying to apply it into an MMO. That's why SWTOR isn't sitting right with me.

    It's Bioware's game and they can do what they want...  it's just a shame that yet another Star Wars MMO has to go the way of the linear themepark -- SWG turned into one with NGE.

    Which again, is why there's such a let down with regards to what races are playable, because with the choices so far, it's extremely limiting to what a number of people would like.

    +100 for a rational , calm and accruate arguement.  No sarcasim , this is a good post. It really goes the the central topic of what is an mmo supposted to be, and i agree with his conclusion.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • sungodrasungodra Member Posts: 1,376

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    ...

    The personal stories reveal details about what is going on in the game and relate to the universe as a whole.

    ...

    Just want to address this one little snippet...

    If the personal stories are only there to act as story telling devices for the game universe... then why are they personal stories?

    A personal story is supposed to be about a character adapting and developing due to experiencing hardship. While this is fine and dandy to do in a single player game where you only really have one or a handful of finite characters, this works. When you're slathering it over the masses... not so much, because then the masses go through the cookie cutter story you're forcing them through.

    The more I read about how this "story" element is going, the less impressed I am. It sounds to me like if bioware made the remade SWG, every character would start out as an orphaned teenager growing up with his or her moisture farming aunt and uncle on Tatooine.

    Now, I could be wrong, but I really don't see how Bioware would concievably manage indepth story without their linear story telling ways.

    If you don't like Bioware's RPGs, then you probably won't like TOR.  If you do like them, then you probably will.

    Anyhow, there are indications the stories will perhaps be more expansive than what you might get out of a random Bioware RPG.  Is there going to be a progression though?  Sure.   If you play through twice with the same class, will the personal stories have a lot of similar elements?  Sure (just like any Bioware game if you play through twice).  If you like story and making meaningful story decsions, this sort of thing isn't a problem.  If you hate story and don't like it, then you probably won't like TOR.

    Again, this is a HUGE step forward for MMOs, even if there will be some odd fridge logic as a result given people of the same class having overly similar personal stories.  That's a heck of a lot better than having zero story, and far, far, far better than anything we've seen to date.

    Best I can tell you either want something that's probably not technically possible in an MMO yet, no story, or a sandbox (which is a better varient of "no story").  TOR has never pretended to be delivering any of these things.  If you want an MMO that has a lot of themepark elements and gives you story choices rather than the pure railroading that LOTRO, WoW, and all other themeparks have, then TOR is an excellent step forward though.  (It will also have some sandpark elements if you choose to explore, they have said, but I would not bet on anything major here -- probably better than what other themeparks have given how the devs have talked though; the worlds are certainly open and explorable).

    As for the farmer thing.  I saw a clear shot of character creation and you pick a background for your character, for what it is worth.

    Now, on the other hand, perhaps GW2 will be what you want more.  I think the stories will in a sense be more open, but I have the feeling they won't have as much depth.  Hard to say at this point.

    Anyhow, this conversation is starting to go in circles, I think.   Perhaps you should state if any MMO has ever given you want you want, and if not how do you expect TOR to suddenly do it.

    Well see that's the thing. I don't mind Bioware's approach for single player RPGs, because it works. A single player RPG is about the main character with a centric story. It's mostly just an interactive story. You play the game, as the main character, the hero, and the story revolves around you.

    An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world. Every character should be personalized to the player, and with a fairly linear storyline arc, you can't quite pull that off.

    Basically, Bioware is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole by mashing their single player RPG design philosophies and trying to apply it into an MMO. That's why SWTOR isn't sitting right with me.

    It's Bioware's game and they can do what they want...  it's just a shame that yet another Star Wars MMO has to go the way of the linear themepark -- SWG turned into one with NGE.

    Which again, is why there's such a let down with regards to what races are playable, because with the choices so far, it's extremely limiting to what a number of people would like.

     Honestly, if that's what it feels like to you than why not just play it as such?  Then when you are done, move on, or if you see that maybe it does have alot of things in the game to keep you interested than stay and continue to play the game.

     

    This is what I plan to do, but I have a feeling it will have plenty of MMO qualities to keep me around.

    image


    "When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"

  • uohaloranuohaloran Member Posts: 811

    Pyramid quoting like it's 1992.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"

    bravo

    "P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"

    Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Well see that's the thing. I don't mind Bioware's approach for single player RPGs, because it works. A single player RPG is about the main character with a centric story. It's mostly just an interactive story. You play the game, as the main character, the hero, and the story revolves around you.

    An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world. Every character should be personalized to the player, and with a fairly linear storyline arc, you can't quite pull that off.

    Basically, Bioware is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole by mashing their single player RPG design philosophies and trying to apply it into an MMO. That's why SWTOR isn't sitting right with me.

    It's Bioware's game and they can do what they want...  it's just a shame that yet another Star Wars MMO has to go the way of the linear themepark -- SWG turned into one with NGE.

    Which again, is why there's such a let down with regards to what races are playable, because with the choices so far, it's extremely limiting to what a number of people would like.

    So you are basically saying here that WoW's quest system doesn't work at all.  Some with ALL themeparks (LOTRO, etc).  I think this is rather patently untrue given the massive success of well-made games that use such a system.  You really don't get it breaking down by a whole bunch of people killing "Princess" the Boar (I think that's her name) in Elwynn forest for her necklace, or everyone of the same class having the same class quests (even essentially across faction).  All Bioware is essentially doing is using that sort of thing and making it a lot better by giving the player choice.  They are then making "class quests" much more unique than I think any MMO has ever done them with the "personal story" bit.  They are doing something truly great for MMORPGs here, and it is going to work just fine and provide a more unique experience than other MMORPGs with quest system just because they empower players by giving them choices that change how things go.

    I guess you want SWG2 and are just unhappy about it?  Well, TOR never pretended to be that and trying to replicate a failed game would have been a bad idea.  SWG indeed WAS A FAILURE, which was bleeding 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  The only reason why they tried to rush out changes was to stem the massive bleed.  They didn't succeed of course and just opened the floodgates, but that doesn't change the fact that pre-NGE SWG was not doing well.

    Now, I wouldn't be against a game that did what TOR is doing and had a crafting system similar to SWG.  That provided non-combat classes for people if they wanted them (though I suspect such classes would be underplayed and not able to supply the community sufficiently).  Doing that right would cost a lot more resources than what TOR is costing, since you'd probably be pretty much doubling the game size to ensure such people had a rich and varied experience -- and yes, I think it would be nearly doubling since such things would be radically different from what the game has now, a massive amount of new resources would be spent.  Artistically it would also be difficult because it would detract from the honed focus of TOR on replicating the feel of the movies as best it can and such decisions DO require go one way with the game instead of another.

    I can perfectly well understand how some people don't want a compelling cinematic experience playing a Star Wars game, but that's just not what TOR is (it is what SWG was and still is, however, though SWG has changed in how it doesn't deliver such an experience).  There's no reason to think that TOR is going to be failure because it is focusing on players being human-like characters thrust into a cinematic story where they make meaningful decisions.  If anything they are taking parts of what have made past games work (like WoW, LOTRO, etc) and expanding on it by empowering players.  There's every reason to think Bioware can deliver this in a well-polished game.  While you might not like it, there are plenty of people who will.  I'm one of them.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"

    bravo

    "P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"

    Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"

    I don't think they are saying "You can't do it right."  They are saying it would take a lot of extra resources in an already expensive game.  I think another part of it is that the population as a whole would NOT play Wookiees and the like right.  How many players do you actually think would honor the concept of a life debt?  I think we can honestly say not many.  Having Wookiees as a PC race would mean diminishing them and making them less wookieee-like (to say nothing of the fact they can't use basic).  IMHO, that sort of thing in an MMO environment should be left to the devs so that races FEEL right and the game is more immersive.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,924

    See this is wht happens when developers put Story>Gameplay.

     

    This is my point, that Story starts to ruin gameplay as a whole, if it gets to serious

    image

  • MMOman101MMOman101 Member UncommonPosts: 1,698

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    See this is wht happens when developers put Story>Gameplay.

     

    This is my point, that Story starts to ruin gameplay as a whole, if it gets to serious

    It has nothing to do with story; I do not care what they say.

    It is because of the voice acting component that they pumped millions of dollars into. 

    “It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

    --John Ruskin







  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by MMOman101

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    See this is wht happens when developers put Story>Gameplay.

     

    This is my point, that Story starts to ruin gameplay as a whole, if it gets to serious

    It has nothing to do with story; I do not care what they say.

    It is because of the voice acting component that they pumped millions of dollars into. 

    For what it is worth, Story is part of the gameplay in TOR, unlike other MMOs.

  • solocronosolocrono Member Posts: 173

    After reading through more than half of these insane responses to this OP I've come to the conclusion that alot of you need to stop playing MMO's.  I swear this is the most god-awful genre to please "Fans".  Most of the people that complain about new MMO's will say, "I'm not subbed to anything"... then why are you following MMO's.. obviously it's a genre you do not care for, so leave.

     

                  Why are so many people so pissed off about "Human-esue" restricted races in this game?!  WHO CARES that they decided to go with more Human PC's.  EVERY SINGLE MMO OUT NOW HAS NOTHING BUT HUMAN-ESQUE RACES!!!!!!!!   If they didn't want to have a Mon-cal as a PC... so what?!  If you want to go play a Mon-cal go play SWG...   oh wait, what's that?  You don't like that either?!   Well then, there's no pleasing you anyway!!!   Sure, I wouldn't have minded playing an Ithorian Jedi Consular... but I can't, so.. I'll pick something else.  It's really not the big deal you all are making it out to be!!

                    On a side note, I think 8 races (human-esque or not) is a good number of races to choose from, and it's been said  from bioware that it's possible that more can be released by launch or after.

               I'm very tired of all the people that do nothing but complain about every new MMO, not just this one, but all of them... there's always Nay-sayers about every one of them.  But seems more so with SWTOR than any other MMO now: 

    The worst complaint EVER?!?!

    "Oh,  it's a SRPG with co-op"   -  Well, exactly what constitutes an "MMO"?   Let's look it up......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game            Oh look at that... SWTOR fit EVERY SINGLE facet of this wiki definition.

        

                    Have all you negative people ever once stopped and thought, "Hmm.. maybe I just don't like MMO's anymore."?    If you find that you're doing NOTHING but finding ever single "flaw" (in your eyes) that a game has, and doing that more than seeing the good points, or what the game is striving for, then maybe you should take a look at the genre you're hating on, and pick another one for God's sake!!!

  • RakothRakoth Member UncommonPosts: 11

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    What exactly is it your want from a Star Wars game?  SWG2 where you go wash dishes in a Cantina or something?  If you want drudgery in a "sci-fi" setting become a janitor in an R&D facility.

     

    Point of contention: Roger Wilco.  That wasn't drudgery!

    That is all.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"

    bravo

    "P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"

    Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"

    I don't think they are saying "You can't do it right."  They are saying it would take a lot of extra resources in an already expensive game.  I think another part of it is that the population as a whole would NOT play Wookiees and the like right.  How many players do you actually think would honor the concept of a life debt?  I think we can honestly say not many.  Having Wookiees as a PC race would mean diminishing them and making them less wookieee-like (to say nothing of the fact they can't use basic).  IMHO, that sort of thing in an MMO environment should be left to the devs so that races FEEL right and the game is more immersive.

    Everything players do diminish the IP. By your argument no one should play Jedi.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by dhayes68


    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"

    bravo

    "P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"

    Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"

    I don't think they are saying "You can't do it right."  They are saying it would take a lot of extra resources in an already expensive game.  I think another part of it is that the population as a whole would NOT play Wookiees and the like right.  How many players do you actually think would honor the concept of a life debt?  I think we can honestly say not many.  Having Wookiees as a PC race would mean diminishing them and making them less wookieee-like (to say nothing of the fact they can't use basic).  IMHO, that sort of thing in an MMO environment should be left to the devs so that races FEEL right and the game is more immersive.

    Everything players do diminish the IP. By your argument no one should play Jedi.

    The game is designed to handle such things with Jedi (for instance if you are an evil Jedi than your story choices will reflect that and the game will react to that).  They don't have infinite resources however, so implementing races with more unique cultures is something out of their reach.  (For some there's also the fact that some races don't speak basic).

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by Ceridith

     

    Well see that's the thing. I don't mind Bioware's approach for single player RPGs, because it works. A single player RPG is about the main character with a centric story. It's mostly just an interactive story. You play the game, as the main character, the hero, and the story revolves around you.

    An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world. Every character should be personalized to the player, and with a fairly linear storyline arc, you can't quite pull that off.

    Basically, Bioware is trying to jam a square peg into a round hole by mashing their single player RPG design philosophies and trying to apply it into an MMO. That's why SWTOR isn't sitting right with me.

    It's Bioware's game and they can do what they want...  it's just a shame that yet another Star Wars MMO has to go the way of the linear themepark -- SWG turned into one with NGE.

    Which again, is why there's such a let down with regards to what races are playable, because with the choices so far, it's extremely limiting to what a number of people would like.

    While I appreciate what you're saying here, and applaud your ability to debate respectfully. I do take issue with one thing.

    "An MMO on the other hand is supposed to be a virtual world where each player makes his place, and story, in that world"

     To me an MMO isn't supposed to be exactly anything, outside of massively multiplayer. When you're making your own rules on what is and what isn't like above, you cloud your view-point IMHO.

    Also there's no evidence that what they're trying won't work. If another company had attempted this before, I'd understand, but no other game has been what TOR seems to be. That's not to say the opposite isn't a possiblity as well, as it very well may not work.

    It may not be the direction you'd like an MMO to go. I completely understad that. That said, it is a new direction, maybe not as innovative as GW2 seems to be. Still in it's own right it's something different.

    Look at PVE in most MMO's post WOW, even pre to some extent. It's all about endgame, and raiding. The journey to all of these features is nothing but boring overdone grinds. What's there to grab you and entertain you in such a design? IMO nothing at this point, it's all been done to death. There's only so much uniqueness that can be built into the quest treadmill type of game. Where TOR and GW2 are different is by adding actual substance to that aspect of the MMO. Something that may actually be entertaining to play through. Rather than rush through as most do with the current model.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • phobossionphobossion Member UncommonPosts: 56

    IMHO, it will go like this:

    1) BW releases ToR

    2) after some time, people start complaining they are out of content (because you know - pre-scripted comtent can always hold for just so long)

    3) BW sees subscription drop after people get bored starting new alts over and over again to experience something different

    4) BW starts implementing all the features they now explain as "being against the story element" because players want them and the rules of free market are just like that

    I will play the game, that's for sure (if I won't drop MMO gaming as a whole :D) and am looking forward to emerge into the story, but since I am no altholic, I'll probably play just one char, so I am bit worried about what will be left for me to do when I'll see all of those nice videos. WoW-style gear farm? I don't know and won't make assumptions, but I have no faith left, that's for sure. I think many here (including myself) just want to play a SW IP MMO so there won't be the option to "STFU and go play some other game", because there is nothing like that and I doubt it will ever be. I just wonder what would happen if it wouldn't be BW making this but rather someone like RIFT devs, who are not affraid to put some not-so-mainstream elements into their game. Sure we wouldn't have those myriads of cutscenes and hours and hours of voiced people explaining to you why the heck should you go kill another 5 rats, but maybe, just maybe there could evolve something with not only epic IP and back-story, but also something with epic gameplay.

    Well, lets just wait and see ;)

    Peace

  • PigozzPigozz Member UncommonPosts: 862

    Originally posted by phobossion

    IMHO, it will go like this:

    1) BW releases ToR

    2) after some time, people start complaining they are out of content (because you know - pre-scripted comtent can always hold for just so long)

    3) BW sees subscription drop after people get bored starting new alts over and over again to experience something different

    4) BW starts implementing all the features they now explain as "being against the story element" because players want them and the rules of free market are just like that

    I will play the game, that's for sure (if I won't drop MMO gaming as a whole :D) and am looking forward to emerge into the story, but since I am no altholic, I'll probably play just one char, so I am bit worried about what will be left for me to do when I'll see all of those nice videos. WoW-style gear farm? I don't know and won't make assumptions, but I have no faith left, that's for sure. I think many here (including myself) just want to play a SW IP MMO so there won't be the option to "STFU and go play some other game", because there is nothing like that and I doubt it will ever be. I just wonder what would happen if it wouldn't be BW making this but rather someone like RIFT devs, who are not affraid to put some not-so-mainstream elements into their game. Sure we wouldn't have those myriads of cutscenes and hours and hours of voiced people explaining to you why the heck should you go kill another 5 rats, but maybe, just maybe there could evolve something with not only epic IP and back-story, but also something with epic gameplay.

    Well, lets just wait and see ;)

    Peace

    These are precisely my thoughts;)

    MMOs played chronologically:
    Runescape,Lineage II, WoW,Tabula Rasa, AoC,Eve Online,Guild Wars, Rift(beta only),SWTOR(beta only),Star Trek Online
    Most fun: Tabula Rasa
    image

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    I don't get why people are so much against Story in MMO's.

     

    Do they want the same old bland quest system to never change?

    I thought that most people like me have grown weary and tired of the same old way that quests have been done now for years and years in MMO's.

    Then why would people be against gameplay mechanics that make questing more meaningful and entertaining again? What's so good about the current stale quest gameplay in most MMO's, that it should be preferred above deepened storytelling?

    Are you REALLY that satisfied with the way that quest mechanics are now?

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • phobossionphobossion Member UncommonPosts: 56

    Originally posted by cyphers

    I don't get why people are so much against Story in MMO's.

     

    Do they want the same old bland quest system to never change?

    I thought that most people like me have grown weary and tired of the same old way that quests have been done now for years and years in MMO's.

    Then why would people be against gameplay mechanics that make questing more meaningful and entertaining again? What's so good about the current stale quest gameplay in most MMO's, that it should be preferred above deepened storytelling?

    Are you REALLY that satisfied with the way that quest mechanics are now?

     There was an article not long ago, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/4339/Hands-On-With-the-Sith-Warrior.html, where the redactor reviewed his experience as a low-level Sith Warrior (?). That experience wasn't much more than the obligate: 1. go kill 5 rats -> 2. go kill 5 huge rats -> 3. go kill a rat boss. Sure the NPCs told him everything in nice voiced dialogue but that does not change the fact it was just another "killer quest" you find in every other MMO out there. I don't think the way quests are aquired changes much :(

    Maybe they could just prepare some more interesting quest for the presentation :))

  • agagaagaga Member Posts: 273

    Originally posted by phobossion

    Originally posted by cyphers

    I don't get why people are so much against Story in MMO's.

     

    Do they want the same old bland quest system to never change?

    I thought that most people like me have grown weary and tired of the same old way that quests have been done now for years and years in MMO's.

    Then why would people be against gameplay mechanics that make questing more meaningful and entertaining again? What's so good about the current stale quest gameplay in most MMO's, that it should be preferred above deepened storytelling?

    Are you REALLY that satisfied with the way that quest mechanics are now?

     There was an article not long ago, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/4339/Hands-On-With-the-Sith-Warrior.html, where the redactor reviewed his experience as a low-level Sith Warrior (?). That experience wasn't much more than the obligate: 1. go kill 5 rats -> 2. go kill 5 huge rats -> 3. go kill a rat boss. Sure the NPCs told him everything in nice voiced dialogue but that does not change the fact it was just another "killer quest" you find in every other MMO out there. I don't think the way quests are aquired changes much :(

    Maybe they could just prepare some more interesting quest for the presentation :))

    Ultimately, in a game like this Bioware comes up against the same problems all designers of MMOs do - that there aren't many variations on the basic missions: kill, fetch, escort, travel to or escort. Adding voice-over delivered story may sugercoat these missions but they may also slow them down. It will be interesting to see how they overcome the inherent challenges of mission repetition.

  • Asmiroth20Asmiroth20 Member Posts: 346

    Originally posted by phobossion

    Originally posted by cyphers

    I don't get why people are so much against Story in MMO's.

     

    Do they want the same old bland quest system to never change?

    I thought that most people like me have grown weary and tired of the same old way that quests have been done now for years and years in MMO's.

    Then why would people be against gameplay mechanics that make questing more meaningful and entertaining again? What's so good about the current stale quest gameplay in most MMO's, that it should be preferred above deepened storytelling?

    Are you REALLY that satisfied with the way that quest mechanics are now?

     There was an article not long ago, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/4339/Hands-On-With-the-Sith-Warrior.html, where the redactor reviewed his experience as a low-level Sith Warrior (?). That experience wasn't much more than the obligate: 1. go kill 5 rats -> 2. go kill 5 huge rats -> 3. go kill a rat boss. Sure the NPCs told him everything in nice voiced dialogue but that does not change the fact it was just another "killer quest" you find in every other MMO out there. I don't think the way quests are aquired changes much :(

    Maybe they could just prepare some more interesting quest for the presentation :))

        Isn't that the one most of us called bogus because he skipped through most if not all of the dialogue?  Yeah...

  • KriosisKriosis Member Posts: 345

    Originally posted by agaga

    Ultimately, in a game like this Bioware comes up against the same problems all designers of MMOs do - that there aren't many variations on the basic missions: kill, fetch, escort, travel to or escort. Adding voice-over delivered story may sugercoat these missions but they may also slow them down. It will be interesting to see how they overcome the inherent challenges of mission repetition.

    Indeed. I think the biggest problem could be the VO and questing combination, not that it's a bad thing, I'm looking forward to it. I'm interested in how fast they'll be able to push content, do VO and build a good story around it. Lots of MMO players fly through content, and those types will skip all VO and pay little attention to story. I'm pretty sure they've thought about this, I just hope they're prepared for it.

    Afterall, once all that VO and story is stripped away, it's nothing more then your average, kill, travel, fetch quests. So I'm hoping the gameplay is overwhelming while leaving room for a decent amount of VO and story.

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