What's needed is a gaming community that desperately needs to stop whining.
Play the games now, give feedback to companies making games down the pipeline.
Realize that there's certain aspects of MMOs that'll always be in MMOs. No one's going to like all of it, the games are tailored to be a shotgun blast of this and that around a few core mechanics.
Lots of stand alone games with really exciting online features with great communities out there to try too.
Also the exact opposite of what you want in a game appeals to roughly 1000 other people. Your 14.99 or 10 dollars here and there just can't compete against a tried and true market.
I dissagree..
There hasn't been one decent MMORPG released in since SWG... and before that Everquest, DAOC and Ultima Online have all been ruined by the WoW dollar...! It's a friggen pandemic that newbies are unable to even see, or recognise because they have no clue what happened to the industry in 2004..
Well I'm going to diss your dissagree sir, because there have been great games.
You're just sadly just a singluar tool crammed into a tool box.
Lots of good games, even DAoC had it's problems (I personally hated it and thought the pvp was way too restricted compared to UO or Shadowbane at the time. Which I think is fine for lightweight pvpers or people who dabble in it. Quite frankly WoW's BGs and any CTF game in MMOs is on par with the best DAoC pvp in technical execution.)
WoW's a good game, they won. Hating them because they are on top and dominate the field is sad.
Now being burned out on it, or never really getting in to it in the first place is fine. I've not played the game in 2 years, and quite frankly with Cata I don't think it's enough to go back to. But I can recognize that it was a good MMO and on top of that a good video game.
Ryzom is the sandbox everyone's looking for. It exists. EvE's the open ended player made this and that game that everyone's looking for. It's also difficult, so the same crowds like.. "i hate be'un spaccesship" Because they're no good at it.
Don't hate the games, playas.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Basically we need Lineage 2 with less of a grind, better controls and some quests, and that would suit everything the OP is asing for
Hopefully TERA can be that, but it looks like they are dumbing/watering it down as much as they can, personally I don't hold much stock in it, I like it less the more I read into it.
archeage maybe in afew years :P tho do question if there would be the quests, better controls and less of a grind, but then just might have to put up with that for a proper game world (if it will be ofc) but like the things they focus on in their little video´s.
edit this is ofc if they even release an english version, but making a small english language site is the first little step :P
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore. Nothing to do with quality.
- comprehensive crafting system. What?
- player-driven economy. Nothing to do with quality.
- pvp that has a purpose. Purpose is subjective.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience. I agree that Good vs. Evil is a cliché but nothing says more factions make the game better.
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it. Choice to shoot yourself in the head or not is no choice at all.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves... Subjective.
SNIP
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures. Who is "we"? -I don't.
SNIP
This is your list of requirements. Not the "gaming community's".
Only thing game devs should pay attention to in the future is how to stay within budget to avoid releasing some half-assed chatroom with 3d graphics.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore. Nothing to do with quality.
- comprehensive crafting system. What?
- player-driven economy. Nothing to do with quality.
- pvp that has a purpose. Purpose is subjective.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience. I agree that Good vs. Evil is a cliché but nothing says more factions make the game better.
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it. Choice to shoot yourself in the head or not is no choice at all.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves... Subjective.
SNIP
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures. Who is "we"? -I don't.
SNIP
This is your list of requirements. Not the "gaming community's".
Only thing game devs should pay attention to in the future is how to stay within budget to avoid releasing some half-assed chatroom with 3d graphics.
Great reaction to the original post. Quirhid: you are absolutely right. The subjective proposed features have nothing to do with video game quality.
A game could have all these features and be the worst mmorpg ever created. In fact ... PvP with a purprose ? If that mean hardcore PvP to control the complete world, 99% chance your game already killed any balance and joy to play it for all the others.
Another dreamer, another would be designer who doesn't have a clue.
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore. Nothing to do with quality.
- comprehensive crafting system. What?
- player-driven economy. Nothing to do with quality.
- pvp that has a purpose. Purpose is subjective.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience. I agree that Good vs. Evil is a cliché but nothing says more factions make the game better.
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it. Choice to shoot yourself in the head or not is no choice at all.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves... Subjective.
SNIP
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures. Who is "we"? -I don't.
SNIP
This is your list of requirements. Not the "gaming community's".
Only thing game devs should pay attention to in the future is how to stay within budget to avoid releasing some half-assed chatroom with 3d graphics.
Great reaction to the original post. Quirhid: you are absolutely right. The subjective proposed features have nothing to do with video game quality.
A game could have all these features and be the worst mmorpg ever created. In fact ... PvP with a purprose ? If that mean hardcore PvP to control the complete world, 99% chance your game already killed any balance and joy to play it for all the others.
Another dreamer, another would be designer who doesn't have a clue.
Average forum quality.
There are ways to do all these things in a quality fashion. Why are you assuming that we want otherwise?
And yes, in our opinions, this would be a more quality experience.
I emphasized "we" and "our" because one of you had some trouble figuring that out. Hope this answers your question.
A very good list of features that I myself would like to see in a few new AAA MMOs, not just Indy projects.
For those Players that do not appreciate these features current MMO design philosophy is already seeing to their needs. Perhaps a MMO designed along the OP's list would make profit... because it snag us Players that do not appreciate current MMO design.
Why not attempt to get profit from all MMO Players instead of just the current majority? Just a thought.
And NO I am not going to argue whether current MMO design is better than a design that follows the OP's list. I prefer the OP's list of features but that doesn't make it "Superior" to current design.... just different and that it caters to Players that have different tastes in MMOs.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I would like an mmo that would let you play a mob. Playing against others so they have this challenging experience that your talking about. A simple idea and I often wonder why its not implemented.
To make it even more fun, let the mob loot an item and keep it until someone else kills the mob that your playing. When another or same person comes back to kill the mob they get the looted item. After playing mobs for so long maybe let players start to play a mob with a little higher hp's or something to reward people who want to play them. Maybe after playing a mob let the mob have a special ability that you can use only after playing the mob and killing so many players with that type of mob. There are many ways that a company could think to reward a play for not only playing his mmorpg character.
I am the Senior Producer on Zentia. We are in early access beta right now. let me show you which features our game meets and maybe some of you can find a new home:
Seeking the following:
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore.
Zentia has a huge map. Wide open world with many different lands to explore.
- comprehensive crafting system.
I would like more feedback from players on this. So far it looks pretty comprehensive but it might need some tweaking. Top end crafted items can be morepowerful than any found in game. However the best items do require more than one players crafting skill to create.
- player-driven economy.
So far it is. Standard peddling system.
- pvp that has a purpose.
We have a criminal system including jail time. It would be a very realistic life of crime. with NPC judges and npc captors to hunt you.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience.
We have server vs server factions. No factions between races. Right now just two factions in beta. (tortise or hare).
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it.
Death will come for you if you mess up.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves...
you'll havee to check out the art and decide for yourself. I will say that Zentia has a humorous style so there are some cute weapons. For the most part you can expect swords, hammers, staffs etc.
- a questing system that does not insult our intelligence. Make questing difficult, but worth the effort. We want to feel like our character has had a personal goal in life, and it is the driving force in his "story". We don't want to murder innocent flora and fauna for the amusement of some random npc... we want there to be a real purpose to every quest we undertake.
The main quest line in Zentia is to restore your characters immortality. This is done by cleaning up the demons and other abominations let loose by the big fight between the leading immortals. Other quests all have very developed storylines. Most have multiple parts and good rewards. You can level all the way through by only finishing quests if you wish.
- dynamic world events, dynamic loot... you know what? just try to be more dynamic wherever possible. Nothing we do should feel spoon-fed or repetitive.
I'm not really clear on what you mean by dynamic. you want the loot to be tailored to your character? Loot that can be upgraded?
- give us new content at least once every 6months. I don't mean a full-on expansion, but give us a new dungeon, a new explorable zone, SOMETHING to add diversity to the world over time.
This might be interesting to you. To open up the content every 20 levels (after level 40) the content must be opened up by the players working together to complete a section of the Heavenly Test. You want new content? You can get it anytime you want to work for it. Plus a minimum of three major updates a year.
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures.
We have guild housing now. I am pushing to get individual housing added. Just remember that will make the download huge and require a more powerful user end system to run the game. We are experimenting with some workarounds for this issue. I will keep you posted.
- we want an intuitive, and customizable interface. Not just the look, but custom layouts and addons as well.
Interface is highly customizable. Key mapping etc. The layout customization is a work in progress. Again we need the feedback of players like you.
- we want a fluid control system, that makes us feel free to jump and run and climb in the world.
I think it is but again I would love to hear your opinions on this.
- we want gameplay that requires skills, not luck, or bugging out to succeed. Don't just make something impossible because it's the last piece of content in the game and you don't want people to finish it.
There is some luck and random events but the raids all require skill and a coordinated raiding party. The Heavenly tests are tough but not impossible. After one is unlocked yu will have earned all the rewards tha tcome with it.
- we want a variety of races that have their own unique cultures, advantages, and pitfalls. [edit: added this one to the list, thanks arakail!]
Thank you SusanRez for answering to the OP's list... your MMO just hit my radar screen and it has been designated "Sierra One". Thank you for taking the time to become involved with the Player Community here.
You will be getting my application for beta testing shortly. If you decide to not accept my app for any reason then I will wait and watch.
EDIT added: I checked out your MMO, but to be honest it is too "cartoony" for my tastes (way too much so). Sorry but I am an old man and I enjoy realistic graphics such as the style LotRO and Vanguard utlizes. It doesn't have to be top notch, but the style itself is important to me. I wish you the best.
Enter in the logbook: Sierra One retired as contact.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Originally posted by Talin
One key area I think is missing is the addition of social-based activities outside of combat. Concepts such as gambling (allowing characters to sit down at a tavern and play dice, cards, darts, etc with their hard earned gold), tournaments (jousting, archery, etc), performance that provides benefits/amusement (remember SWG's dancing/musician system), and other non-combat reasons/mechanisms to encourage social interaction.
Add in some type of farming/pet raising/etc system that encourages periodic (but not necessarily extensive) logging in to maintain/grow something in conjunction with a robust crafting system.
Look at what people love about social online games and integrate them into a MMO to provide an ever deeper experience that transcends dungeon crawling and dragon slaying (while also including those, of course!).
I might help to know that things like gambling or activities that lead to gambling can cause serious issues for the developer or publisher due to the laws around the world. It can also increase the rating applied to the game and cause more conflict on who can purchase and play your games. This applies for all major gaming markets around the world that have certain restrictions and guidelines on the type of content in games.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore. Nothing to do with quality.
- comprehensive crafting system. What?
- player-driven economy. Nothing to do with quality.
- pvp that has a purpose. Purpose is subjective.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience. I agree that Good vs. Evil is a cliché but nothing says more factions make the game better.
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it. Choice to shoot yourself in the head or not is no choice at all.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves... Subjective.
SNIP
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures. Who is "we"? -I don't.
SNIP
This is your list of requirements. Not the "gaming community's".
Only thing game devs should pay attention to in the future is how to stay within budget to avoid releasing some half-assed chatroom with 3d graphics.
Great reaction to the original post. Quirhid: you are absolutely right. The subjective proposed features have nothing to do with video game quality.
A game could have all these features and be the worst mmorpg ever created. In fact ... PvP with a purprose ? If that mean hardcore PvP to control the complete world, 99% chance your game already killed any balance and joy to play it for all the others.
Another dreamer, another would be designer who doesn't have a clue.
Average forum quality.
To those who think that the features in my list do not measure quality of gaming experience:
Okay, so you're saying that a featureless game can be a quality experience? You're getting caught up on semantics. Each of the features (if done with attention to detail, and thoughtfully) will lead to a quality experience for most people. I did not include the statement because it is implied, but leave it to trolls to be contrary for no reason. What do you believe creates a quality game experience? Rather than JUST criticizing, why not contribute?
A note on housing:
You might not want it, but so far in this thread you are in the minority. It's not like I pulled these features out of the thin air, I'm a big proponent of online communities, and I hear lots of people wishing for it. Not to mention it's a great feature for any RPG to add to the immersiveness of a game. Could you give a valid reason why you don't want housing in an MMO? This is a discussion, please participate.
A note on subjectiveness:
Of course Art is subjective, of course the purpose of pvp is subjective. However, the following is true based on my statement:
1. We do not want pointless pvp that involves killing someone just for the sake of killing them...
2. Game Art doesn't need to be a psychological tool used to trick us into thinking a game is better than it is. Too often these days mmos "wow" us with fancy graphics, and more often than not, once you actually play the game, you find that the gameplay is weak. It should be an aesthetically pleasing experience, that is unified and makes the player feel as though they belong to the world they inhabit.
A note on crafting:
This is HUGE to lots of people who enjoy the eb and flow of the player-driven economy. Crafting should be dynamic and worth the effort. Too often in recent games, crafting is a tool to make a few items in large quantities once the skill has been mastered. And yes, a player-driven economy is a feature that leads to a quality experience for many players, whether you realize it or not.
A word on factions:
My statement actually holds a lot of merit. If factions must be part of a game, having 2 factions is a poor design choice. When there are only 2 factions, there can very easily be severe population imbalance (because of fair-weather players). With 3+ factions, the dominant faction will be inherently ganged up on by the other factions. This has been proven to be true countless times in DAoC.
A word on budgets:
Here is where your argument needs work. "stay within budget" is subjective to the project. If a project is well-planned, and well-budgeted, a quality game can be made, regardless of the feature-set. And, without any features (since you claim they have nothing to do with quality), all you would have IS a 3d chatroom.
Here is the problem: Game developers have to consider investment vs. return. In the current economy, much of what is being developed is low investment & low return (thus making it low risk). This thread is about bringing to light the right features to include for their money, in order to reach the long-term players. Right now developers are shooting for a 2-4 year lifespan for many of their mmos before it's on to the next big shiny thing... is that what we as consumers want? To have to re-invent ourselves every 2-4 years? These lifespan estimates are being generated by looking at the current market, so how can we (the consumers) help to improve these numbers in our favor? Simple: by drawing attention to "what we want, and what we will pay for" discussions. You'd be amazed how much discussions like these are heard and discussed within the industry... this is like free focus-groups for them.
in fact, that brings me to my next bit:
SusanRez: Thanks for proving that the industry is watching, and is interested! Just by participating you make this thread worthwhile. To answer your question regarding dynamic gameplay elements:
A common practice in MMOs is to release the game with a library of pre-determined items of various qualities. An example of a dynamic loot system would be to allow loot statistics to be random based on the level, quality, and function of the item. This is often more labor-intensive for programmers, but the pay-off is that your players' eyes will light up anytime something rare and dynamic drops. It adds that "oooooo, what's that?!" factor to the game that can be lost once players become familiar with the standard loot library. This doesn't necessarily replace standard loot, but it certainly adds to the depth of the loot system.
three examples of RPGs that successfully implemented dynamic loot:
-Diablo II
-Dark Age of Camelot
-borderlands
Other areas that can be given a dynamic system to reduce the repetition that plagues mmos:
-dungeon layouts
-enemy npcs (level, name, special stats/abilities)
-world events (a random chance for certain events to occur anywhere in the world)
While your game doesn't look like my usual fare, since you took the time to be part of the discussion, I will take the time to try it out and give feedback where I can. I envy your position, this must be an exciting time for you and your team .
and finally, to KingKong007: What exactly is your design background if I might ask? Since you're so capable of passing judgement on someone else, I'd like to hear where you went to school for design, or even just your thoughts about what can be improved in mmo design, instead of useless negativity.
thanks everyone for making this a great discussion so far!
You cannot put "gaming community" on the topic and talk about "us" wanting these things because I am part of this gaming community too and I don't want these things and I don't find half of these things contributing to the quality of our MY gaming experience. You only state features. The real quality comes from how the game is made, how the those features are made.
You must know that there is such a thing as "silence of the majority" in forums, those who do not write their opinions but only read them. So you cannot possibly be sure where the majority lies in this particular thread.
This thread aside, advocates of your preferred playstyle are a loud minority. There are many players who like crafting, sure, but are they a majority? -No.
2 factions have worked for a number of games. Having no factions has worked aswell. Your only example is DaoC. One example is not sufficient indication of anything. This same logic works for everything. If a dev makes one good game, it is not sufficient to say that they make good games. They might have been just lucky.
As for your response to staying in budget: Simple. Games of poor quality were not well-planned. It is not about money. It is about what you do with the money you get. If you are given sticks, don't try to build a bridge. Then again if you are given everything you need, it all comes to the talent and skill of the developers. It can still fail.
And I don't mind picking up a new game every 2-4 years. I wish it would be once a year! We won't go anywhere fast if we linger on old games.
This thread is about your preferences. Nothing to do with "gaming community". Nothing says that having those features (even well made) produce a success because some features drive off as many players as they bring in. You can't please everyone.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
What's needed is a gaming community that desperately needs to stop whining.
Play the games now, give feedback to companies making games down the pipeline.
Realize that there's certain aspects of MMOs that'll always be in MMOs. No one's going to like all of it, the games are tailored to be a shotgun blast of this and that around a few core mechanics.
Lots of stand alone games with really exciting online features with great communities out there to try too.
Also the exact opposite of what you want in a game appeals to roughly 1000 other people. Your 14.99 or 10 dollars here and there just can't compete against a tried and true market.
I dissagree..
There hasn't been one decent MMORPG released in since SWG... and before that Everquest, DAOC and Ultima Online have all been ruined by the WoW dollar...! It's a friggen pandemic that newbies are unable to even see, or recognise because they have no clue what happened to the industry in 2004..
Well I'm going to diss your dissagree sir, because there have been great games.
You're just sadly just a singluar tool crammed into a tool box.
Lots of good games, even DAoC had it's problems (I personally hated it and thought the pvp was way too restricted compared to UO or Shadowbane at the time. Which I think is fine for lightweight pvpers or people who dabble in it. Quite frankly WoW's BGs and any CTF game in MMOs is on par with the best DAoC pvp in technical execution.)
WoW's a good game, they won. Hating them because they are on top and dominate the field is sad.
Now being burned out on it, or never really getting in to it in the first place is fine. I've not played the game in 2 years, and quite frankly with Cata I don't think it's enough to go back to. But I can recognize that it was a good MMO and on top of that a good video game.
Ryzom is the sandbox everyone's looking for. It exists. EvE's the open ended player made this and that game that everyone's looking for. It's also difficult, so the same crowds like.. "i hate be'un spaccesship" Because they're no good at it.
Don't hate the games, playas.
Ryzom was good, but like anything it wasn't popular enough to catch on.
A fail to see how Realm vs Realm in DAOC was bad. The amount of tactics and playstyle and non-stop conflict once you entered the frontier was unbeleivable. How was it "restrivtive" ? I mean Shadowbane was point & click movmenet and unlimited build. Game was great for about 2 months till FOTM became pointless.
Ultima Online in it's true form only lasted for a short while, after tramel the game was no longer Ultima Online and was pointless. Even way before that, UO was MOOT because EQ and more robust MMORPG were out. Namely EQ.
World of Warcraft is a non-issue. The only importance it hold is that it brought new children and beginners into the MMORPG market place. (ie: money) But unfortunately, now they are older and refugee's looking to graduate to something more appropriate and are now clouding up the forums with their nonesense and trivial banter.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
You cannot put "gaming community" on the topic and talk about "us" wanting these things because I am part of this gaming community too and I don't want these things and I don't find half of these things contributing to the quality of our MY gaming experience. You only state features. The real quality comes from how the game is made, how the those features are made.
Here's the deal (I shouldn't have to say this): For the last 2 years I've been part of a community of gamers, I have even been their leader for most of that period. The community consists of several guilds in an alliance, all that use the same ventrilo, allowing us to exist as one large social group. I hear what they want. I didn't want to be so specific in my OP because it assumes other people aren't included in this topic. By all means, since you claim to be a member of the community, I again invite you to actually name something you're looking for.
You must know that there is such a thing as "silence of the majority" in forums, those who do not write their opinions but only read them. So you cannot possibly be sure where the majority lies in this particular thread.
Exactly what this thread is envisioned to improve. I welcome everyone's opinions, even your's.
This thread aside, advocates of your preferred playstyle are a loud minority. There are many players who like crafting, sure, but are they a majority? -No.
Please tell me where you're getting that information. You state it so matter-of-factly that you must have created a poll and gotten 1000s of participants.
2 factions have worked for a number of games. Having no factions has worked aswell. Your only example is DaoC. One example is not sufficient indication of anything. This same logic works for everything. If a dev makes one good game, it is not sufficient to say that they make good games. They might have been just lucky.
How about some examples of games that didn't work with 2 factions?
WAR
STO
and even AION tried to introduce a 3rd faction of NPCs which wasn't enough.
It's a simple equation, when there are 2 sides, only one can be the winner. When one side manages to win enough, fair-weather players on the losing side will stop playing. Likewise people who were losing badly on other servers will join up on a winning side of that server. There CAN be checks and balances (like bonuses for being on the losing side, etc) but they only put a band-aid on the problem. The solution is 3+ factions (if you have to have factions) in order to allow the players to band together against a dominant faction. I invite you to tell me HOW this is a wrong conclusion to come to, other than what you've done so far, which is simply say I'm wrong.
As for your response to staying in budget: Simple. Games of poor quality were not well-planned. It is not about money. It is about what you do with the money you get. If you are given sticks, don't try to build a bridge. Then again if you are given everything you need, it all comes to the talent and skill of the developers. It can still fail.
Pretty sure we agree on this subject, because you're just basically saying the negative version of what I said.
And I don't mind picking up a new game every 2-4 years. I wish it would be once a year! We won't go anywhere fast if we linger on old games.
But what if an amazing game that spoke to your playstyle came along and managed to not only give you new content regularly, but actually updated it's graphics and added new features every 2-4 years? Or a genre that was so successful that it could actually release a successful sequel? I have a feeling GW2 will be the first game to do that.
This thread is about your preferences. Nothing to do with "gaming community". Nothing says that having those features (even well made) produce a success because some features drive off as many players as they bring in. You can't please everyone.
This thread is about discussing the right features to please the most people... Of course you can't please everyone (you're living proof of that), but who do we want devs to be looking at for their demographics? 13yr old kids who don't have sustained income and will probably quit after 3-6 months? Or people in their 30s (the average gamer is 34yrs old, look it up) with sustained income and an ability to reason, instead of just whining till they get a game that takes no skill.
You continue to go to great lengths to tear down what I've posted without offering a shred of anything that would contribute to the conversation. You say you don't want any of these features, yet you say nothing of features you do want. You say that there are many games that have succeeded with 2 factions, yet you name none of them (not to mention I have continuously said "if you must have them", which acknowledges that I am aware of the success of factionless games). So far this thread is proof that my local community is just part of a larger one that desires these features. If you cannot actually contribute to the conversation with some facts or ideas, go somewhere else. Simply posting "no, you're wrong" isn't good enough.
You continue to go to great lengths to tear down what I've posted without offering a shred of anything that would contribute to the conversation. You say you don't want any of these features, yet you say nothing of features you do want. You say that there are many games that have succeeded with 2 factions, yet you name none of them (not to mention I have continuously said "if you must have them", which acknowledges that I am aware of the success of factionless games). So far this thread is proof that my local community is just part of a larger one that desires these features. If you cannot actually contribute to the conversation with some facts or ideas, go somewhere else. Simply posting "no, you're wrong" isn't good enough.
All games that have had heavy emphasis on crafting have been niche games. They may have been niche or they may have failed for other reasons, but it gives some indication.
One succesful multi-way faction RvR has been DaoC. World of Warcraft had 2 factions. I can't remember if Lineage 2 had some fixed factions. Do we need fixed factions? Many games have faction warfare as an afterthought. Sure many 2 faction games have failed, but did they fail because they had only 2 factions in them? -I doubt it. This leads me into thinking that the number of factions doesn't matter. To my knowledge, the quality and depth of PvP combat itself matters most.
I'm fairly certain that the amount of players demanding a persistent housing are a minority. Most popular games have had no housing. It is a minor feature. Nothing that makes or breaks your gaming experience. Or shouldn't.
Player driven economy. Let's face it, best game for this is Eve Online, and even in this game, it's a minority who really embrace it. Most don't give it much thought. For them, it is not a make or break feature. It's nice, but it's not a necessity.
About exploration and huge areas. I tried this one game: Vanguard. It had a big world, full of dull, unimaginative quests which often required more than average amount of grind. Even when I played the game, when it was supposed to be "finished", it wasn't finished. Making a world as big as that with some quality content in it must require massive amounts of resources and time. It just doesn't feel realistic. You can wish, sure. But you shouldn't demand it.
About making mistakes and having choices. I stand with my original statement. Variety is good. But giving the player a chance to either shoot himself in the head or not is not a choice at all. All choices need to be valid. Nothing like 55 different races because "its fun to have many races".
Choices without any consequences are useless.
There is no variety without balance.
Balance is crucial. Something people like to dismiss.
Since you wanted me to participate, what I want is:
Features that make the game are done properly.
Solid netcode. Minimal amount of bugs and frequent updates.
Maintained balance in everything: frequent nerfs and buffs, as often as needed as fast as you can make 'em
Entertaining and deep "easy to learn hard to master" -combat
Rewards for PvP in the form of GvG tournaments with real-life prizes (e-sport) or persistent fight over resources
Minimize or get rid of non-skill factors from PvP like player population, gear grinding etc..
Make the player feel meaningful in every engagement
No timesinks of anykind. The game in itself is enough. Having no subscription promotes this.
Try to make something that hasn't been done before. Same ol', same ol' is not good enough! "Making [enter once famous title here] but only better" is not acceptable!
These are just my preferences. Something I could add would be a form of "Sealed deck tournaments "(look under Limited) to keep PvP tournaments fresh. But some people just don't like a skill or combat system where you have to do planning, fitting a ship, or any form of building a deck. This is just me.
I'm also painfully aware that I belong to a minority who likes their PvP balanced and e-sporty. Griefing, ganking, zerging and camping don't feel like real PvP to me.
It's only what I'd like.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
All games that have had heavy emphasis on crafting have been niche games. They may have been niche or they may have failed for other reasons, but it gives some indication.
One succesful multi-way faction RvR has been DaoC. World of Warcraft had 2 factions. I can't remember if Lineage 2 had some fixed factions. Do we need fixed factions? Many games have faction warfare as an afterthought. Sure many 2 faction games have failed, but did they fail because they had only 2 factions in them? -I doubt it. This leads me into thinking that the number of factions doesn't matter. To my knowledge, the quality and depth of PvP combat itself matters most.
I maintain that 2 faction games fail because of population changes and a lack of checks and balances. If one side is allowed to run rampant for too long without some sort of population-boosting bonus given to the losing side, it will become extremely imbalanced very quickly. For this reason, a simple answer (instead of checks and balances to put a bandage on a poor design choice) is 3+ factions, allowing for temporary alliances in favor of putting a dominating faction in their place.
I'm fairly certain that the amount of players demanding a persistent housing are a minority. Most popular games have had no housing. It is a minor feature. Nothing that makes or breaks your gaming experience. Or shouldn't.
I think it's simply not thought of as much because so few games have ever done it in any form. To people who have experienced it, they love it, and want it more often. For this reason I really believe it's a value-add. As I said before, it also adds to a sense of belonging to the world you inhabit... it's like if you visit a foreign country, you'll never really feel like it's home unless you acquire a home to live in there.
Player driven economy. Let's face it, best game for this is Eve Online, and even in this game, it's a minority who really embrace it. Most don't give it much thought. For them, it is not a make or break feature. It's nice, but it's not a necessity.
Eve's Economy is actually one of the biggest aspects of the game. I have friends who play for free because there is an exchange rate for play-time with in-game currency. I also know people who act as treasurers for both in-game economy, and the real world meet-n'-greets that many of the corporations have.
That being said, I'm not thinking that a majority of people want this level of depth. However I believe most people want some form of auction house, and some way in which they can buy and sell with other players. A non-player-driven economy consists of everyone buying and selling everything to NPCs, which is very 1-dimensional.
About exploration and huge areas. I tried this one game: Vanguard. It had a big world, full of dull, unimaginative quests which often required more than average amount of grind. Even when I played the game, when it was supposed to be "finished", it wasn't finished. Making a world as big as that with some quality content in it must require massive amounts of resources and time. It just doesn't feel realistic. You can wish, sure. But you shouldn't demand it.
While it's obvious that this can be done poorly, if done right, even a vast wasteland can have it's purpose. The size of a world really depends on the average population of a server I suppose. As a designer the goal would be to create a big enough world that it feels vast without making it so big that you almost never run into other players. I'm reminded of the 64player deathmatch maps for Quake2... unless there was literally 64 players on the server, you spent more time running around looking for someone than actually killing.
My original statement was meant to convey a feeling of being trapped in small zones with very little area to run around and get lost. I think it's important to people to feel like there's a lot of exploring to do in a game.
About making mistakes and having choices. I stand with my original statement. Variety is good. But giving the player a chance to either shoot himself in the head or not is not a choice at all. All choices need to be valid. Nothing like 55 different races because "its fun to have many races".
Choices without any consequences are useless.
There is no variety without balance.
Balance is crucial. Something people like to dismiss.
Balance is of course crucial, but this is not a feature to be requested, this is something to be expected of any mmo developer. In regards to choices, I fail to see how we do not agree on this, since my original statement basically said "give us the freedom to make our own mistakes" which by the very nature of the word mistake, implies consequences.
Since you wanted me to participate, what I want is:
Features that make the game are done properly.
Solid netcode. Minimal amount of bugs and frequent updates.
Maintained balance in everything: frequent nerfs and buffs, as often as needed as fast as you can make 'em
Entertaining and deep "easy to learn hard to master" -combat
Rewards for PvP in the form of GvG tournaments with real-life prizes (e-sport) or persistent fight over resources
Minimize or get rid of non-skill factors from PvP like player population, gear grinding etc..
Make the player feel meaningful in every engagement
No timesinks of anykind. The game in itself is enough. Having no subscription promotes this.
Try to make something that hasn't been done before. Same ol', same ol' is not good enough! "Making [enter once famous title here] but only better" is not acceptable!
These are some great requirements, and I agree with all of them, however I look at some of these as part of a list of functional requirements before releasing to the public (netcode and balance especially) that every mmo should follow if they want to stay in business. Yes they are issues of quality, but they are a bit more fundamental than I was going for. The list I was envisioning is one that takes an already solid concept to a deeper and more immersive level. I know the industry is capable of making games with good netcode, and (*gasp*) yes, even balanced gameplay, but I think there's just a bunch of elements of games lately that seem to be going in the wrong direction (smaller zones, less factions, too linear, not enough choices, not enough immersion).
These are just my preferences. Something I could add would be a form of "Sealed deck tournaments "(look under Limited) to keep PvP tournaments fresh. But some people just don't like a skill or combat system where you have to do planning, fitting a ship, or any form of building a deck. This is just me.
I'm also painfully aware that I belong to a minority who likes their PvP balanced and e-sporty. Griefing, ganking, zerging and camping don't feel like real PvP to me.
Being aware of it and doing something about it are two different things Believe it or not many people simply haven't experienced e-sport style pvp (A lah guildwars tournaments) and therefore only know what's been handed to them. I'm a firm believer in discussions like this because the vast majority of people who play games aren't engaged in the internal dialog that you and I (and many of the other participants in this thread) are. They simply take it for what it is and happily hand over their money because they don't bother to think about how it could get any better.
I'm talking to you, game designers, and you developers, and you too artists.
Seeking the following:
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore.
- comprehensive crafting system.
- player-driven economy.
- pvp that has a purpose.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience.
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves...
- a questing system that does not insult our intelligence. Make questing difficult, but worth the effort. We want to feel like our character has had a personal goal in life, and it is the driving force in his "story". We don't want to murder innocent flora and fauna for the amusement of some random npc... we want there to be a real purpose to every quest we undertake.
- dynamic world events, dynamic loot... you know what? just try to be more dynamic wherever possible. Nothing we do should feel spoon-fed or repetitive.
- give us new content at least once every 6months. I don't mean a full-on expansion, but give us a new dungeon, a new explorable zone, SOMETHING to add diversity to the world over time.
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures.
- we want an intuitive, and customizable interface. Not just the look, but custom layouts and addons as well.
- we want a fluid control system, that makes us feel free to jump and run and climb in the world.
- we want gameplay that requires skills, not luck, or bugging out to succeed. Don't just make something impossible because it's the last piece of content in the game and you don't want people to finish it.
- we want a variety of races that have their own unique cultures, advantages, and pitfalls. [edit: added this one to the list, thanks arakail!]
------------------------
Now, I know there have been games that have met some or almost all of these requirements, but there seems to be less and less choices out there for people who want a really in-depth experience, and more games that cater to the "casual player" which is game-design-speak for "so easy a caveman could do it". This is a call to action for game devs to get back to the wild wild west approach to mmos that really made us fall in love with a game.
What other features would you say game devs need to be focusing on for future games? Add to the discussion! Let's see if we can't make those designers' ears perk up a little.
Maybe RIFT: Planes of Telara will have what you seek?
Check it out at www.riftgame.com
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
what constitutes fun for you? try to put some thought into your response, because that's essentially what we're talking about here... features that would result in the most fun for the most people.
what constitutes fun for you? try to put some thought into your response, because that's essentially what we're talking about here... features that would result in the most fun for the most people.
what constitutes fun for you? try to put some thought into your response, because that's essentially what we're talking about here... features that would result in the most fun for the most people.
Whats fun to guy A is not fun to guy B.
whats fun to me? IDK.
So, you are just trolling then..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
My only request is that the quest automation seen in some Asian MMOs never make it to Western games. I cannot think of anything which more effectively destroys the joy of questing than automation. Get rid of the map pointers, too. Tell me in plain English where the quest objective is. I promise I'll find it, and I'll have fun doing so. Getting a quest and then being able to click a button to take me to the destination, or simply follow an arrow, is probably the most destructive thing ever brought into RPGs.
Comments
AIka = cheap asian grinder... what you see, is what you get. Nice visials... no mmorpg.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
swgemu.com
Nuff said?.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Well I'm going to diss your dissagree sir, because there have been great games.
You're just sadly just a singluar tool crammed into a tool box.
Lots of good games, even DAoC had it's problems (I personally hated it and thought the pvp was way too restricted compared to UO or Shadowbane at the time. Which I think is fine for lightweight pvpers or people who dabble in it. Quite frankly WoW's BGs and any CTF game in MMOs is on par with the best DAoC pvp in technical execution.)
WoW's a good game, they won. Hating them because they are on top and dominate the field is sad.
Now being burned out on it, or never really getting in to it in the first place is fine. I've not played the game in 2 years, and quite frankly with Cata I don't think it's enough to go back to. But I can recognize that it was a good MMO and on top of that a good video game.
Ryzom is the sandbox everyone's looking for. It exists. EvE's the open ended player made this and that game that everyone's looking for. It's also difficult, so the same crowds like.. "i hate be'un spaccesship" Because they're no good at it.
Don't hate the games, playas.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
archeage maybe in afew years :P tho do question if there would be the quests, better controls and less of a grind, but then just might have to put up with that for a proper game world (if it will be ofc) but like the things they focus on in their little video´s.
edit this is ofc if they even release an english version, but making a small english language site is the first little step :P
This is your list of requirements. Not the "gaming community's".
Only thing game devs should pay attention to in the future is how to stay within budget to avoid releasing some half-assed chatroom with 3d graphics.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Great reaction to the original post. Quirhid: you are absolutely right. The subjective proposed features have nothing to do with video game quality.
A game could have all these features and be the worst mmorpg ever created. In fact ... PvP with a purprose ? If that mean hardcore PvP to control the complete world, 99% chance your game already killed any balance and joy to play it for all the others.
Another dreamer, another would be designer who doesn't have a clue.
Average forum quality.
There are ways to do all these things in a quality fashion. Why are you assuming that we want otherwise?
And yes, in our opinions, this would be a more quality experience.
I emphasized "we" and "our" because one of you had some trouble figuring that out. Hope this answers your question.
Once upon a time....
A very good list of features that I myself would like to see in a few new AAA MMOs, not just Indy projects.
For those Players that do not appreciate these features current MMO design philosophy is already seeing to their needs. Perhaps a MMO designed along the OP's list would make profit... because it snag us Players that do not appreciate current MMO design.
Why not attempt to get profit from all MMO Players instead of just the current majority? Just a thought.
And NO I am not going to argue whether current MMO design is better than a design that follows the OP's list. I prefer the OP's list of features but that doesn't make it "Superior" to current design.... just different and that it caters to Players that have different tastes in MMOs.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I would like an mmo that would let you play a mob. Playing against others so they have this challenging experience that your talking about. A simple idea and I often wonder why its not implemented.
To make it even more fun, let the mob loot an item and keep it until someone else kills the mob that your playing. When another or same person comes back to kill the mob they get the looted item. After playing mobs for so long maybe let players start to play a mob with a little higher hp's or something to reward people who want to play them. Maybe after playing a mob let the mob have a special ability that you can use only after playing the mob and killing so many players with that type of mob. There are many ways that a company could think to reward a play for not only playing his mmorpg character.
Hi all,
I am the Senior Producer on Zentia. We are in early access beta right now. let me show you which features our game meets and maybe some of you can find a new home:
Seeking the following:
- gigantic, open environments with lots of room to stretch our legs and explore.
Zentia has a huge map. Wide open world with many different lands to explore.
- comprehensive crafting system.
I would like more feedback from players on this. So far it looks pretty comprehensive but it might need some tweaking. Top end crafted items can be morepowerful than any found in game. However the best items do require more than one players crafting skill to create.
- player-driven economy.
So far it is. Standard peddling system.
- pvp that has a purpose.
We have a criminal system including jail time. It would be a very realistic life of crime. with NPC judges and npc captors to hunt you.
- if you must have factions, MORE THAN 2 PLEASE. Good vs. Evil is not only cliche'd, it's terrible for an mmo experience.
We have server vs server factions. No factions between races. Right now just two factions in beta. (tortise or hare).
- freedom to make mistakes... we're not babies, let us die, let us spec completely weird ways and regret it.
Death will come for you if you mess up.
- classic art style. We don't need to have a giant rotating chain-saw-sword-guitar to feel good about ourselves...
you'll havee to check out the art and decide for yourself. I will say that Zentia has a humorous style so there are some cute weapons. For the most part you can expect swords, hammers, staffs etc.
- a questing system that does not insult our intelligence. Make questing difficult, but worth the effort. We want to feel like our character has had a personal goal in life, and it is the driving force in his "story". We don't want to murder innocent flora and fauna for the amusement of some random npc... we want there to be a real purpose to every quest we undertake.
The main quest line in Zentia is to restore your characters immortality. This is done by cleaning up the demons and other abominations let loose by the big fight between the leading immortals. Other quests all have very developed storylines. Most have multiple parts and good rewards. You can level all the way through by only finishing quests if you wish.
- dynamic world events, dynamic loot... you know what? just try to be more dynamic wherever possible. Nothing we do should feel spoon-fed or repetitive.
I'm not really clear on what you mean by dynamic. you want the loot to be tailored to your character? Loot that can be upgraded?
- give us new content at least once every 6months. I don't mean a full-on expansion, but give us a new dungeon, a new explorable zone, SOMETHING to add diversity to the world over time.
This might be interesting to you. To open up the content every 20 levels (after level 40) the content must be opened up by the players working together to complete a section of the Heavenly Test. You want new content? You can get it anytime you want to work for it. Plus a minimum of three major updates a year.
- we want housing. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will because so many games ignore this feature. We want a place to call home within our world, it makes the world seem more like an actual world... are we to believe that there are 1000s of people running around homeless? We want to be able to decorate our house, store stuff in our house, and display trophies of our adventures.
We have guild housing now. I am pushing to get individual housing added. Just remember that will make the download huge and require a more powerful user end system to run the game. We are experimenting with some workarounds for this issue. I will keep you posted.
- we want an intuitive, and customizable interface. Not just the look, but custom layouts and addons as well.
Interface is highly customizable. Key mapping etc. The layout customization is a work in progress. Again we need the feedback of players like you.
- we want a fluid control system, that makes us feel free to jump and run and climb in the world.
I think it is but again I would love to hear your opinions on this.
- we want gameplay that requires skills, not luck, or bugging out to succeed. Don't just make something impossible because it's the last piece of content in the game and you don't want people to finish it.
There is some luck and random events but the raids all require skill and a coordinated raiding party. The Heavenly tests are tough but not impossible. After one is unlocked yu will have earned all the rewards tha tcome with it.
- we want a variety of races that have their own unique cultures, advantages, and pitfalls. [edit: added this one to the list, thanks arakail!]
ZentiaTheGame.com No key needed for this beta.
Thanks- SusanRez
Thank you SusanRez for answering to the OP's list... your MMO just hit my radar screen and it has been designated "Sierra One". Thank you for taking the time to become involved with the Player Community here.
You will be getting my application for beta testing shortly. If you decide to not accept my app for any reason then I will wait and watch.
EDIT added: I checked out your MMO, but to be honest it is too "cartoony" for my tastes (way too much so). Sorry but I am an old man and I enjoy realistic graphics such as the style LotRO and Vanguard utlizes. It doesn't have to be top notch, but the style itself is important to me. I wish you the best.
Enter in the logbook: Sierra One retired as contact.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I might help to know that things like gambling or activities that lead to gambling can cause serious issues for the developer or publisher due to the laws around the world. It can also increase the rating applied to the game and cause more conflict on who can purchase and play your games. This applies for all major gaming markets around the world that have certain restrictions and guidelines on the type of content in games.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
To those who think that the features in my list do not measure quality of gaming experience:
Okay, so you're saying that a featureless game can be a quality experience? You're getting caught up on semantics. Each of the features (if done with attention to detail, and thoughtfully) will lead to a quality experience for most people. I did not include the statement because it is implied, but leave it to trolls to be contrary for no reason. What do you believe creates a quality game experience? Rather than JUST criticizing, why not contribute?
A note on housing:
You might not want it, but so far in this thread you are in the minority. It's not like I pulled these features out of the thin air, I'm a big proponent of online communities, and I hear lots of people wishing for it. Not to mention it's a great feature for any RPG to add to the immersiveness of a game. Could you give a valid reason why you don't want housing in an MMO? This is a discussion, please participate.
A note on subjectiveness:
Of course Art is subjective, of course the purpose of pvp is subjective. However, the following is true based on my statement:
1. We do not want pointless pvp that involves killing someone just for the sake of killing them...
2. Game Art doesn't need to be a psychological tool used to trick us into thinking a game is better than it is. Too often these days mmos "wow" us with fancy graphics, and more often than not, once you actually play the game, you find that the gameplay is weak. It should be an aesthetically pleasing experience, that is unified and makes the player feel as though they belong to the world they inhabit.
A note on crafting:
This is HUGE to lots of people who enjoy the eb and flow of the player-driven economy. Crafting should be dynamic and worth the effort. Too often in recent games, crafting is a tool to make a few items in large quantities once the skill has been mastered. And yes, a player-driven economy is a feature that leads to a quality experience for many players, whether you realize it or not.
A word on factions:
My statement actually holds a lot of merit. If factions must be part of a game, having 2 factions is a poor design choice. When there are only 2 factions, there can very easily be severe population imbalance (because of fair-weather players). With 3+ factions, the dominant faction will be inherently ganged up on by the other factions. This has been proven to be true countless times in DAoC.
A word on budgets:
Here is where your argument needs work. "stay within budget" is subjective to the project. If a project is well-planned, and well-budgeted, a quality game can be made, regardless of the feature-set. And, without any features (since you claim they have nothing to do with quality), all you would have IS a 3d chatroom.
Here is the problem: Game developers have to consider investment vs. return. In the current economy, much of what is being developed is low investment & low return (thus making it low risk). This thread is about bringing to light the right features to include for their money, in order to reach the long-term players. Right now developers are shooting for a 2-4 year lifespan for many of their mmos before it's on to the next big shiny thing... is that what we as consumers want? To have to re-invent ourselves every 2-4 years? These lifespan estimates are being generated by looking at the current market, so how can we (the consumers) help to improve these numbers in our favor? Simple: by drawing attention to "what we want, and what we will pay for" discussions. You'd be amazed how much discussions like these are heard and discussed within the industry... this is like free focus-groups for them.
in fact, that brings me to my next bit:
SusanRez: Thanks for proving that the industry is watching, and is interested! Just by participating you make this thread worthwhile. To answer your question regarding dynamic gameplay elements:
A common practice in MMOs is to release the game with a library of pre-determined items of various qualities. An example of a dynamic loot system would be to allow loot statistics to be random based on the level, quality, and function of the item. This is often more labor-intensive for programmers, but the pay-off is that your players' eyes will light up anytime something rare and dynamic drops. It adds that "oooooo, what's that?!" factor to the game that can be lost once players become familiar with the standard loot library. This doesn't necessarily replace standard loot, but it certainly adds to the depth of the loot system.
three examples of RPGs that successfully implemented dynamic loot:
-Diablo II
-Dark Age of Camelot
-borderlands
Other areas that can be given a dynamic system to reduce the repetition that plagues mmos:
-dungeon layouts
-enemy npcs (level, name, special stats/abilities)
-world events (a random chance for certain events to occur anywhere in the world)
While your game doesn't look like my usual fare, since you took the time to be part of the discussion, I will take the time to try it out and give feedback where I can. I envy your position, this must be an exciting time for you and your team
.
and finally, to KingKong007: What exactly is your design background if I might ask? Since you're so capable of passing judgement on someone else, I'd like to hear where you went to school for design, or even just your thoughts about what can be improved in mmo design, instead of useless negativity.
thanks everyone for making this a great discussion so far!
You cannot put "gaming community" on the topic and talk about "us" wanting these things because I am part of this gaming community too and I don't want these things and I don't find half of these things contributing to the quality of our MY gaming experience. You only state features. The real quality comes from how the game is made, how the those features are made.
You must know that there is such a thing as "silence of the majority" in forums, those who do not write their opinions but only read them. So you cannot possibly be sure where the majority lies in this particular thread.
This thread aside, advocates of your preferred playstyle are a loud minority. There are many players who like crafting, sure, but are they a majority? -No.
2 factions have worked for a number of games. Having no factions has worked aswell. Your only example is DaoC. One example is not sufficient indication of anything. This same logic works for everything. If a dev makes one good game, it is not sufficient to say that they make good games. They might have been just lucky.
As for your response to staying in budget: Simple. Games of poor quality were not well-planned. It is not about money. It is about what you do with the money you get. If you are given sticks, don't try to build a bridge. Then again if you are given everything you need, it all comes to the talent and skill of the developers. It can still fail.
And I don't mind picking up a new game every 2-4 years. I wish it would be once a year! We won't go anywhere fast if we linger on old games.
This thread is about your preferences. Nothing to do with "gaming community". Nothing says that having those features (even well made) produce a success because some features drive off as many players as they bring in. You can't please everyone.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ryzom was good, but like anything it wasn't popular enough to catch on.
A fail to see how Realm vs Realm in DAOC was bad. The amount of tactics and playstyle and non-stop conflict once you entered the frontier was unbeleivable. How was it "restrivtive" ? I mean Shadowbane was point & click movmenet and unlimited build. Game was great for about 2 months till FOTM became pointless.
Ultima Online in it's true form only lasted for a short while, after tramel the game was no longer Ultima Online and was pointless. Even way before that, UO was MOOT because EQ and more robust MMORPG were out. Namely EQ.
World of Warcraft is a non-issue. The only importance it hold is that it brought new children and beginners into the MMORPG market place. (ie: money) But unfortunately, now they are older and refugee's looking to graduate to something more appropriate and are now clouding up the forums with their nonesense and trivial banter.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
You continue to go to great lengths to tear down what I've posted without offering a shred of anything that would contribute to the conversation. You say you don't want any of these features, yet you say nothing of features you do want. You say that there are many games that have succeeded with 2 factions, yet you name none of them (not to mention I have continuously said "if you must have them", which acknowledges that I am aware of the success of factionless games). So far this thread is proof that my local community is just part of a larger one that desires these features. If you cannot actually contribute to the conversation with some facts or ideas, go somewhere else. Simply posting "no, you're wrong" isn't good enough.
All games that have had heavy emphasis on crafting have been niche games. They may have been niche or they may have failed for other reasons, but it gives some indication.
One succesful multi-way faction RvR has been DaoC. World of Warcraft had 2 factions. I can't remember if Lineage 2 had some fixed factions. Do we need fixed factions? Many games have faction warfare as an afterthought. Sure many 2 faction games have failed, but did they fail because they had only 2 factions in them? -I doubt it. This leads me into thinking that the number of factions doesn't matter. To my knowledge, the quality and depth of PvP combat itself matters most.
I'm fairly certain that the amount of players demanding a persistent housing are a minority. Most popular games have had no housing. It is a minor feature. Nothing that makes or breaks your gaming experience. Or shouldn't.
Player driven economy. Let's face it, best game for this is Eve Online, and even in this game, it's a minority who really embrace it. Most don't give it much thought. For them, it is not a make or break feature. It's nice, but it's not a necessity.
About exploration and huge areas. I tried this one game: Vanguard. It had a big world, full of dull, unimaginative quests which often required more than average amount of grind. Even when I played the game, when it was supposed to be "finished", it wasn't finished. Making a world as big as that with some quality content in it must require massive amounts of resources and time. It just doesn't feel realistic. You can wish, sure. But you shouldn't demand it.
About making mistakes and having choices. I stand with my original statement. Variety is good. But giving the player a chance to either shoot himself in the head or not is not a choice at all. All choices need to be valid. Nothing like 55 different races because "its fun to have many races".
Choices without any consequences are useless.
There is no variety without balance.
Balance is crucial. Something people like to dismiss.
Since you wanted me to participate, what I want is:
Features that make the game are done properly.
Solid netcode. Minimal amount of bugs and frequent updates.
Maintained balance in everything: frequent nerfs and buffs, as often as needed as fast as you can make 'em
Entertaining and deep "easy to learn hard to master" -combat
Rewards for PvP in the form of GvG tournaments with real-life prizes (e-sport) or persistent fight over resources
Minimize or get rid of non-skill factors from PvP like player population, gear grinding etc..
Make the player feel meaningful in every engagement
No timesinks of anykind. The game in itself is enough. Having no subscription promotes this.
Try to make something that hasn't been done before. Same ol', same ol' is not good enough! "Making [enter once famous title here] but only better" is not acceptable!
These are just my preferences. Something I could add would be a form of "Sealed deck tournaments "(look under Limited) to keep PvP tournaments fresh. But some people just don't like a skill or combat system where you have to do planning, fitting a ship, or any form of building a deck. This is just me.
I'm also painfully aware that I belong to a minority who likes their PvP balanced and e-sporty. Griefing, ganking, zerging and camping don't feel like real PvP to me.
It's only what I'd like.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Maybe RIFT: Planes of Telara will have what you seek?
Check it out at www.riftgame.com
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Personally I don't care about any of the things you listed.
If a game is fun I'll play it.
GW2 dynamic system? Suck it.
SWToR Fully Voiced Story? Suck it.
FFXIIIIXIXIXI Cat people? Suck it.
If its not fun I will not play it. It can have all the innovations, voice overs, and sexy cat chicks it wants.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
what constitutes fun for you? try to put some thought into your response, because that's essentially what we're talking about here... features that would result in the most fun for the most people.
Whats fun to guy A is not fun to guy B.
whats fun to me? IDK.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
So, you are just trolling then..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I approve of the OP list *thumbs up*
My only request is that the quest automation seen in some Asian MMOs never make it to Western games. I cannot think of anything which more effectively destroys the joy of questing than automation. Get rid of the map pointers, too. Tell me in plain English where the quest objective is. I promise I'll find it, and I'll have fun doing so. Getting a quest and then being able to click a button to take me to the destination, or simply follow an arrow, is probably the most destructive thing ever brought into RPGs.