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The MMORPG genre is ruined.

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  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    This is the reason most MMOs, including SWTOR it seems, are like WoW. Look at EQ1's population crash!
    .
    WoW has the best RP in the MMO genre these days on Moon Guard and Wyrmrest Accord servers.
    .
    image

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    /ROFLMAO

    I'm speechless..  :)

  • Lexe01Lexe01 Member Posts: 97

    ok I've never seen these graphics before but they confirm the sickening feeling I get from seeing another F2P being released.

     

    I agree to the fact that Pay2Play will die completelty to be replaced by money-grabbing-cash-for-consumables-F2P.

    Because of pirates most other games are being released on consoles first, and now our last PC oriented gamestyle is about to dissapear aswell. /sad

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    If MMORPG P2P was traditional food, F2P would be junkfood.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,410

    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm positive this has been said time and time again, but I just need to vent.  I feel like the MMORPG genre has evolved into something that it was never supposed to be.

    Well, welcome to life. I'm pretty sure there are many things you love that started out as somethign different from what it turned out to be.

    Thing is, most of what we do and create always evolves and changes into something else. There is nothing new here.

  • Lexe01Lexe01 Member Posts: 97

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm positive this has been said time and time again, but I just need to vent.  I feel like the MMORPG genre has evolved into something that it was never supposed to be.

    Well, welcome to life. I'm pretty sure there are many things you love that started out as somethign different from what it turned out to be.

    Thing is, most of what we do and create always evolves and changes into something else. There is nothing new here.

     I find it a bit oversimplified to say "ah, that's life". If in life you don't accept something, you fight it ! With actions, with law, with violence ! Who says we need to accept this FC2P anyway !? If we stand together we can make their crappy games fail.

  • UOloverUOlover Member UncommonPosts: 339

    That is some mega WAR and AoC floppage. Just goes to show how easy it is to attract people and how difficult it is to keep them.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,410

    Originally posted by Lexe01

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm positive this has been said time and time again, but I just need to vent.  I feel like the MMORPG genre has evolved into something that it was never supposed to be.

    Well, welcome to life. I'm pretty sure there are many things you love that started out as somethign different from what it turned out to be.

    Thing is, most of what we do and create always evolves and changes into something else. There is nothing new here.

     I find it a bit oversimplified to say "ah, that's life". If in life you don't accept something, you fight it ! With actions, with law, with violence ! Who says we need to accept this FC2P anyway !? If we stand together we can make their crappy games fail.

    Oversimplified? It's probably one of the most complex things about being human.

    It is that very evolution (which soemtimes does include revolutioin but then things tend to go back the way they were but in a different form with a different overlord)  that IS part of being human. Do you think that most of the things you enjoy today started out in their current state? Do you for one minute really belleve that there weren't people who valued a completely different incarnation of the things you love today and tried to keep them the way they were or reacted against them?

    How about classisim to the Baroque and then to neo-classism in art?

    Or how about the simple concept polyphony in music?

    Sorry, the problem here is that people start taking a sliver of a snapshot of human experience and start with the all "It's changing and going to hell" without looking back at the 2 thousand + years of human history and seeing how we actually do things.

    It's just "simpler" to say "that's life" than write a dissertation. image

    Except my post tried to sum it up in a way that was a bit more involved than saying "that's life". image

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972

    Originally posted by uquipu

    This is the reason most MMOs, including SWTOR it seems, are like WoW. Look at EQ1's population crash!

    .

    WoW has the best RP in the MMO genre these days on Moon Guard and Wyrmrest Accord servers.

    .

    image

    This again, really? Repetition for emphasis, right?

    I honestly think you sleep every night with a printed copy of that graph underneath your pillow.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Lexe01


    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm positive this has been said time and time again, but I just need to vent.  I feel like the MMORPG genre has evolved into something that it was never supposed to be.

    Well, welcome to life. I'm pretty sure there are many things you love that started out as somethign different from what it turned out to be.

    Thing is, most of what we do and create always evolves and changes into something else. There is nothing new here.

     I find it a bit oversimplified to say "ah, that's life". If in life you don't accept something, you fight it ! With actions, with law, with violence ! Who says we need to accept this FC2P anyway !? If we stand together we can make their crappy games fail.

    Oversimplified? It's probably one of the most complex things about being human.

    It is that very evolution (which soemtimes does include revolutioin but then things tend to go back the way they were but in a different form with a different overlord)  that IS part of being human. Do you think that most of the things you enjoy today started out in their current state? Do you for one minute really belleve that there weren't people who valued a completely different incarnation of the things you love today and tried to keep them the way they were or reacted against them?

    How about classisim to the Baroque and then to neo-classism in art?

    Or how about the simple concept polyphony in music?

    Sorry, the problem here is that people start taking a sliver of a snapshot of human experience and start with the all "It's changing and going to hell" without looking back at the 2 thousand + years of human history and seeing how we actually do things.

    It's just "simpler" to say "that's life" than write a dissertation. image

    Except my post tried to sum it up in a way that was a bit more involved than saying "that's life". image

         But it all depends what we are talking about.. Do people evolve?  Does Society evolve? Do businesses and technologies evolve?  YES to all of them and more.. Does that make what they evolve into better?  NO it does not.. There are times that evolusion can be avoided and should be for the sake of the topic..  We have laws in society that prohibit natural evolusion of businesses, such as monopolies.. We have rules that restrict the evolusion of games or sports..  Such as golf for example.. Because of technology, we could turn every public golf course into extinction, however your governing bodies such as the PGA have strict guidlines to control natural evolusion of golf..

         To sit back,  say and do nothing, and just say "that's life" isn't what this country (America) was built on.. Sometimes the market evolves into a lesser product.. (aka VHS tapes).. Lord knows our public education system is evolving, and to be honest.. I'm NOT impressed.. I never "go gentle into that good night" as D. Thomas would say.. lol    Rage Rage against the dying of the mmo light.. LOL

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071


    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Does that make what they evolve into better?  NO it does not..

    Ah, there is one who knows better than anyone else...

  • Lexe01Lexe01 Member Posts: 97

    I find it funny how this thread almost became about philosophy in just a few posts. It's about the gameindustry feeding us crap and us eating it like it's something tasty and nutritious.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Lexe01

    I find it funny how this thread almost became about philosophy in just a few posts. It's about the gameindustry feeding us crap and us eating it like it's something tasty and nutritious.

    Ha Ha Ha.. I actually sat her and spit out a laugh when I read this.. /ROFL   Can I inject a McDonalds commercial here?  LOL

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 4,113

    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Lexe01


    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm positive this has been said time and time again, but I just need to vent.  I feel like the MMORPG genre has evolved into something that it was never supposed to be.

    Well, welcome to life. I'm pretty sure there are many things you love that started out as somethign different from what it turned out to be.

    Thing is, most of what we do and create always evolves and changes into something else. There is nothing new here.

     I find it a bit oversimplified to say "ah, that's life". If in life you don't accept something, you fight it ! With actions, with law, with violence ! Who says we need to accept this FC2P anyway !? If we stand together we can make their crappy games fail.

    Oversimplified? It's probably one of the most complex things about being human.

    It is that very evolution (which soemtimes does include revolutioin but then things tend to go back the way they were but in a different form with a different overlord)  that IS part of being human. Do you think that most of the things you enjoy today started out in their current state? Do you for one minute really belleve that there weren't people who valued a completely different incarnation of the things you love today and tried to keep them the way they were or reacted against them?

    How about classisim to the Baroque and then to neo-classism in art?

    Or how about the simple concept polyphony in music?

    Sorry, the problem here is that people start taking a sliver of a snapshot of human experience and start with the all "It's changing and going to hell" without looking back at the 2 thousand + years of human history and seeing how we actually do things.

    It's just "simpler" to say "that's life" than write a dissertation. image

    Except my post tried to sum it up in a way that was a bit more involved than saying "that's life". image

         But it all depends what we are talking about.. Do people evolve?  Does Society evolve? Do businesses and technologies evolve?  YES to all of them and more.. Does that make what they evolve into better?  NO it does not.. There are times that evolusion can be avoided and should be for the sake of the topic..  We have laws in society that prohibit natural evolusion of businesses, such as monopolies.. We have rules that restrict the evolusion of games or sports..  Such as golf for example.. Because of technology, we could turn every public golf course into extinction, however your governing bodies such as the PGA have strict guidlines to control natural evolusion of golf..

         To sit back,  say and do nothing, and just say "that's life" isn't what this country (America) was built on.. Sometimes the market evolves into a lesser product.. (aka VHS tapes).. Lord knows our public education system is evolving, and to be honest.. I'm NOT impressed.. I never "go gentle into that good night" as D. Thomas would say.. lol    Rage Rage against the dying of the mmo light.. LOL

    I'm with you, Rydeson. Evolution has an ebb and flow to it. It takes steps forwards and backwards, and in the end survival dictates that things move forwards. In MMOs right now, we are at a point where there are those games who can't survive, and there are plenty making a desparate reach to FtP for survival because they can't make it any other way. We see now two that aren't making it even with FtP. While FtP seems like a savior, it's not. It's new, and there are those who are being suckered into it. There are games who are misleading people into thinking it's working wildly fantastic (who really believes very many people out of the millions are going to shell out $thousands for Islands and ownership in these games?). FtP is a deparation move, and players who play for free are not going to spend wildly, accross many MMOs hiting the market. And players are soon going to grow tired of being second class citizens to the wealthy. This is just another flow leading to another ebb. Just as the WoW system is an "end game mandate" with no long term future. Not to say that WoW didn't do it exceptionally well, but now that's been done, been experienced, and players are calling for something more.

    These are MMOs. Massive Multiplayer. They should have a social aspect to them that includes the world we all play in. People are sensing this if they aren't generally realizing the scope of it. Where's the deeper social meaning? Is there nothing more than a message board atmosphere? Can we have more meaning than tweeting out way through a backdrop of scenic paintings and pinatas?

    And we gamers pay for all of this, or don't. We have every right to speak our minds. To talk about what we want, expect, and will pay for. You'd think that game developers would want to listen. But they are part of the failed evolution, holdovers from single player games that need to be bred out of the MMO gene pool. In time, it will happen. Evolution is not kind to those who don't, won't, or can't adapt to the evolving needs and demands of survival.

    Once upon a time....

  • kaltoumkaltoum Member Posts: 304

    Mcdonald is good. Why people keep giving Mcdonalds analogies in this thread? how many happy meals you had today rydeson?

    90% of haters are begging for love. 10% just want a little attention -- Paulo Coelho

  • Lexe01Lexe01 Member Posts: 97

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    ...While FtP seems like a savior, it's not. It's new, and there are those who are being suckered into it...

     Totally agree with your wall-o-text,  you described the F2P nightmare pretty well there.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    Originally posted by Zackhigbie

    I'm not arguing that games like World of Warcraft aren't popular.  Games like WoW are what the majority of players want.  I'm just saying that WoW is not what MMORPGs are supposed to be.  The mainstream gamers that play WoW and love it are not supposed to be playing MMORPGs.  So yeah, those people aren't interested in the kind of MMORPG I want, and that's why developers don't produce them or indie developers fail at producing them.

    No matter how much I like WoW, it clearly is not teh 'pinnacle' of MMORPG design.  Design choices which were innovative when the game came out now are weighting it down and forcing it down paths that are not fun.

    That said, 'old school' games like UO or EQ were not really 'what MMORPGs are supposed to be'.  WoW limits its players in some ways and those games limited the players in other ways.  I will glady argue that players still clinging to those outdated designs 'are not supposed to be playing MMORPGs'. 

    I think the MMORPG genre needs a new paradigm shift wince the old school design as well as the WoW design seem to be hitting a brick wall and not really evolving.  A new way of creaing MMORPGs has to be found which in a few years will be derided as 'the way MMORPGS are not meant to be' :)

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by kaltoum

    Mcdonald is good. Why people keep giving Mcdonalds analogies in this thread? how many happy meals you had today rydeson?

    Ewwwww.. Eating McDonald's food is the last of my choices., however my daughter and her friends love that junk.. But I won't worry, even I liked McD's when I was a kid and didnt' know better..  She'll outgrow it.. :)  I think the only time I ever are at McD's of my own free will, is when I was on the road in sales.. Sometimes you have to eat from the car while driving, and there was no options off the highway other then a lone McD's next to a gas station.. LOL   I will give McDonalds credit for that..

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    In MMOs right now, we are at a point where there are those games who can't survive, and there are plenty making a desparate reach to FtP for survival because they can't make it any other way.

    That must the most fortunate desperation in the history since F2P companies experience extreme revenue growth and booming like never before.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,410

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Rydeson


    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Oversimplified? It's probably one of the most complex things about being human.

    It is that very evolution (which soemtimes does include revolutioin but then things tend to go back the way they were but in a different form with a different overlord)  that IS part of being human. Do you think that most of the things you enjoy today started out in their current state? Do you for one minute really belleve that there weren't people who valued a completely different incarnation of the things you love today and tried to keep them the way they were or reacted against them?

    How about classisim to the Baroque and then to neo-classism in art?

    Or how about the simple concept polyphony in music?

    Sorry, the problem here is that people start taking a sliver of a snapshot of human experience and start with the all "It's changing and going to hell" without looking back at the 2 thousand + years of human history and seeing how we actually do things.

    It's just "simpler" to say "that's life" than write a dissertation. image

    Except my post tried to sum it up in a way that was a bit more involved than saying "that's life". image

         But it all depends what we are talking about.. Do people evolve?  Does Society evolve? Do businesses and technologies evolve?  YES to all of them and more.. Does that make what they evolve into better?  NO it does not.. There are times that evolusion can be avoided and should be for the sake of the topic..  We have laws in society that prohibit natural evolusion of businesses, such as monopolies.. We have rules that restrict the evolusion of games or sports..  Such as golf for example.. Because of technology, we could turn every public golf course into extinction, however your governing bodies such as the PGA have strict guidlines to control natural evolusion of golf..

         To sit back,  say and do nothing, and just say "that's life" isn't what this country (America) was built on.. Sometimes the market evolves into a lesser product.. (aka VHS tapes).. Lord knows our public education system is evolving, and to be honest.. I'm NOT impressed.. I never "go gentle into that good night" as D. Thomas would say.. lol    Rage Rage against the dying of the mmo light.. LOL

    I'm with you, Rydeson. Evolution has an ebb and flow to it. It takes steps forwards and backwards, and in the end survival dictates that things move forwards. In MMOs right now, we are at a point where there are those games who can't survive, and there are plenty making a desparate reach to FtP for survival because they can't make it any other way. We see now two that aren't making it even with FtP. While FtP seems like a savior, it's not. It's new, and there are those who are being suckered into it. There are games who are misleading people into thinking it's working wildly fantastic (who really believes very many people out of the millions are going to shell out $thousands for Islands and ownership in these games?). FtP is a deparation move, and players who play for free are not going to spend wildly, accross many MMOs hiting the market. And players are soon going to grow tired of being second class citizens to the wealthy. This is just another flow leading to another ebb. Just as the WoW system is an "end game mandate" with no long term future. Not to say that WoW didn't do it exceptionally well, but now that's been done, been experienced, and players are calling for something more.

    These are MMOs. Massive Multiplayer. They should have a social aspect to them that includes the world we all play in. People are sensing this if they aren't generally realizing the scope of it. Where's the deeper social meaning? Is there nothing more than a message board atmosphere? Can we have more meaning than tweeting out way through a backdrop of scenic paintings and pinatas?

    And we gamers pay for all of this, or don't. We have every right to speak our minds. To talk about what we want, expect, and will pay for. You'd think that game developers would want to listen. But they are part of the failed evolution, holdovers from single player games that need to be bred out of the MMO gene pool. In time, it will happen. Evolution is not kind to those who don't, won't, or can't adapt to the evolving needs and demands of survival.

    But the point being is that "this is what happens".

    Regardless of whether people like it or not, accept it or not this has been happening since... well, "since".

    There is nothing new here in the mmorpg world that hasn't happened many times over in the arts, media, technology.

    As far as evolving to something better, well, evolution is sort of a hindsight thing. Besides the fact, who is to say if what is happening now isn't better?

    There is always going to be a disenfranchised group. This group will always say that the changes are bad or that they have bad aspects. Which is exactly what I was pointing out. People are always saying that such and such is bad and will change the very meaning of what the thing originally was. Do we think that sound was widely accepted for movies? That there wasn't a group of people who, if they had a forum, wouldn't be making the same posts that we see now on mmorpg and other forums?

    As far as I'm concerened, things are marching on as they always have and always will be.

    Just look at the council of trent if you want to see a group who would echo the exact posts of "evolution is not always good".

    Of course they didnt' know about evolution but there it is. They were miffed anyways. image

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,927

    I agree with the OP, except for factions. I like having factions and believe they can actually help foster loyalty and camaraderie better than FFA, in terms of PvP.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,410

    Originally posted by Palebane

    I agree with the OP, except for factions. I like having factions and believe they can actually help foster loyalty and camaraderie better than FFA, in terms of PvP.

    I agree with this as well. I prefer factions precisely because of that reason.

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    Nostalgia is amazing.
    .
    You listen to old people talk about the good old days and it seems really great.
    .
    But they never mention polio, tuberculosis, Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the Great Depression, etc.
    .
    All they seem to remember is the community was better and you could buy a loaf of bread for a nickel.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,410

    Originally posted by uquipu

    Nostalgia is amazing.

    .

    You listen to old people talk about the good old days and it seems really great.

    .

    But they never mention polio, tuberculosis, Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the Great Depression, etc.

    .

    All they seem to remember is the community was better and you could buy a loaf of bread for a nickel.

    We can't bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell 'em stories that don't go anywhere - like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you'd say.

    Now where were we? Oh yeah: the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

  • DerrosDerros Member UncommonPosts: 1,216

    the problem is development costs have skyrocketed for 'modern' games, while the audience for a game like the OP describes is still niche.  There just isn't a way to justify the cost to a developer or investors.  That leaves indy dev houses, but since they dont have the budget to make a AAA quality MMO with the latest graphics and network structure, quality, polish, ect, they are going to be ripped to shreds by the same people they are making their niche game for.

  • arcdevilarcdevil Member Posts: 864

    Originally posted by Derros

    the problem is development costs have skyrocketed for 'modern' games, while the audience for a game like the OP describes is still niche.  There just isn't a way to justify the cost to a developer or investors.  That leaves indy dev houses, but since they dont have the budget to make a AAA quality MMO with the latest graphics and network structure, quality, polish, ect, they are going to be ripped to shreds by the same people they are making their niche game for.

    I've been saying that for a long time, but the general consensus between the self titled "hardcore" residents here at mmorpg.com is that big developers have to make a finantial suicide just because.

     

    no wonder they have been bitching here for ages and they will still be here crying when they have great-grandchilden...

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