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I am not a believer of conspiracy...

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  • Originally posted by NightCloak

    Originally posted by Li-Su


    Originally posted by NightCloak


    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Originally posted by Rydeson


    Originally posted by bobbyjr


    Originally posted by fyerwall


    Originally posted by bobbyjr

    *Snip*

    *Snip*

    *Snip*

    *snip*

     There is no proof required to point a finger at Blizzard and say that they are not totally innocent. The only thing required is that there is no proof declaring them innocent. And currently there is none.

    *snip*

    Your argument is totally flawed.  there is no scientifically valid way to find evidence tp prove that someone is innocent.  That is why the burden of proof is on the accuser.  I accuse you of raping a dog 5 hours ago and killed it.  Can you prove your innocence? However I can never provide evidence that you did, so my case ends here.

     Ever hear of an alibi? Its very definition is defending yourself from the accuser.  Oh really, if you are a legal advisor, you would advice blizz that they need an alibi?

    I am not accusing Blizzard of anything. I only am stating that his bobbyjr's accusation that 100% of the hacked account claims are end-user fault is erroneously based on the lack of evidence saying Blizzard is not at fault.  Yes bobbyjr is making a far fetched claim.  I am not defending him here or ever.

    I include Blizzard in the possiblity of accounts being compromised. I would say that there is a fair chance that in at least 1 case that they are at fault in some way.  I am asking fora measurement of the chance, and how you arrive at it, till then it is purely unjustified speculation.  Like I said above your post, you have the right to suspect anything.  That is your right.

    My logic is in no way flawed. You need not evidence or proof to say someone may have done something if there is no proof or evidence to say that they didn't.  Your logic is flawed, unless you mean to say you can say anything so long as you have no evidence either way, which amounts to saying you are free to say anything within the limits of law.  My point is, your saying is meaning for further discussion, let me start by saying you are from Mars.  THere is no evidence either way.  Is that meaningful?.

    It is slander if I did say Blizzard did do something without any basis at all. However, there is reason to believe they have fault when there are quite a few unexplained compromises.  A few unexplained case  = reason to also believe that god is acting on us.  Or that an army from jupiter has invaded US and is camping inside blizz's HQ, and also reason to believe tha goats will start singing tomorrow morning.

    Burden of proof walks both ways. says who?  your courtroom? For Blizzard to say its not thier fault at all they need to prove it. Do you need to prove that you have not eaten your neighbors' dog, or that you have not been stealing flowers from your neighbor's garden? For someone to say its Blizzards fault they need to prove it. For someone to say its 100% end user, they need to be able to prove it. Sure, they have a good track record. But so did Bernie Madoff until he was caught.  True I do not believe it makes sense to attach 100% to anything, and I never did that so far.

    Again, its not about if they really did do anything. Its about how insane the claim is that because there is no proof that they did do it, then it must be always the end-user.

    So all you are saying is, someone claimed 100% whatever and that someone is not making sense (this I agree), so Blizzard now needs to come out and prove it is innocent?  If you are a legal advisor to blizz, do you advise blizz to come out now and say something?  what thing?


  • Originally posted by KillHurt

    Wow, I had no idea this was happening so frequently. The same thing is happening to my old account (don't really care seeing as how I want nothing to do with it) but I get frequent emails, either spam or from "blizzard" telling me things.

    Blizzard officially sucks now, plain and simple.

    indeed i receive junk mail from a lot of sources, human beings sucks now, plain and simple :P

    Notice the :P please

  • bobbyjrbobbyjr Member Posts: 119

    Originally posted by KillHurt

    Wow, I had no idea this was happening so frequently. The same thing is happening to my old account (don't really care seeing as how I want nothing to do with it) but I get frequent emails, either spam or from "blizzard" telling me things.

    Blizzard officially sucks now, plain and simple.

    Blizzard sucks because some random people in another country are sending out blanket emails in a vain hope of catching a person who is willing to let a stranger have full access to their account?

     

    Thats some weird logic.


  • Originally posted by NightCloak

    Originally posted by Li-Su


    Originally posted by NightCloak


    Originally posted by bobbyjr





    *snip*

     

     How is this logic laughable?

    All I say is that no, I have no evidence Blizzard HAS been compromised. But that does not prove that the possiblity isn't there. You do not need evidence to prove someone has done someone for you to have reason to think its possible they did. In fact, you need evidence to prove someone has NOT done something for you to not have reason to think that they did.

    There are plenty of examples where people can provide reasonable doubt to the claim that they are at fault. Reasonable doubt suggest it is more likely that the compromise came from another source. Be it a man in the middle or Blizzard themselves.

    And unless you can provide evidence that Blizzard is in no way compromised at all, it is on you to prove that everyone's compromise is on them. Else there is no logic to not include Blizzard in the possiblity of fault.

    Then again, there is no logic in arguing a fools point. If you cannot grasp that you are attempting to exempt your defense of Blizzard from the same logic you are applying to your offense of the end-user, then there is no point to further discuss this.

    The question is, who stole the cookie from the cookie jar? You cannot prove that the adult did do it. But you cannot prove that they didnt do it. It is far more likely that the child did it, but there are some children that didn't do it and have a fairly good story to support it. So who did it? One of the children or the adult? You say it was always the children and never the adult. How can you say this without being able to prove it wasn't the adult?

    All wrong.  The burden of proof rest in the accusing party.  If you think blizz is guilty good.  You think.  Blizz does not care.  For all that matter, everyone can think whatever, that is freedom.  I can daydream about murdering my boss, that is totally legal.

    Now if you put down in words, saying it is possible, without any measurement about how big the possibility is, it is just an empty statement,  It is possible that blizz is run by martians to capture all our brainwaves.  It is also possible that you are actually a dog randomly typing on the keyboard.  Possible.

    If you want to seriously present a plausible case for discussion, you need to show us why we should suspect blizz, how and why blizz did that.  Until then, it is another fairy tale from someone we do not know.  After all, you just might be another martian, or an orc.  I do not think you are a tauren.  You big toe will hit multiple keys at once, unless you type with a drinking straw in your mouth.

     Its not really wrong as the basis for my arguement isn't to accuse Blizzard of anything. Nor do I need a plausible case for discussion.  Ok you do not need a plausible case for discussion, you can dream up anything and discuss, let us discuss the possibility that you are an orc.

    All I needed to do, which I did do, was prove that the logic behind bobbyjr's arguement was invalid.  bobby is not making much sense, so you can extend his story by making up your own part of nonsense.  Interesting contribution.

    His accusation was based upon the lack of evidence to say Blizzard is included with guilty parties. That is flawed at the core. I need no evidence myself as you are attempting to dismantle my arguement in the same fashion I dismantled bobbyjr's.

    I provided examples and possiblities because it only requires the most general of possiblity to show that his accusation was rooted in the same baseless manner that he was suggesting was silly to start with.  Oh evidence by examples, what examples?  someone says something. do you know any of the posters on this web.  Your friend's story. oh great that is evidence?  anything else to add to the spiral of hot air?.

    Do not bring in bobby, I never talk about him ever, I am just asking you to provide some evidence, anything, not the stories examples of Mr nobody.  I already agree you have all the rights to speculate, but that does not provide any meaningful platform for discussion, as there is nothing to discuss apart from "I think that blizz might be at fault somehow somewhere, but I do not know how, when and what".

    You cannot be wrong, it is always possible,  I also said, it is always possible that you are an orc, but does that mean anything meaningful?


  • Originally posted by bobbyjr

    Originally posted by KillHurt

    Wow, I had no idea this was happening so frequently. The same thing is happening to my old account (don't really care seeing as how I want nothing to do with it) but I get frequent emails, either spam or from "blizzard" telling me things.

    Blizzard officially sucks now, plain and simple.

    Blizzard sucks because some random people in another country are sending out blanket emails in a vain hope of catching a person who is willing to let a stranger have full access to their account?

     

    Thats some weird logic.

    Blizz sucks b/c someone is telling us "there is a possibility that blizz fucks up, that is it, no need evidence"

  • NightCloakNightCloak Member UncommonPosts: 452

    Originally posted by Li-Su

    Originally posted by NightCloak

    Originally posted by Li-Su

    Originally posted by NightCloak

    Originally posted by bobbyjr




    *snip*
    Do not bring in bobby, I never talk about him ever, I am just asking you to provide some evidence, anything, not the stories examples of Mr nobody.  I already agree you have all the rights to speculate, but that does not provide any meaningful platform for discussion, as there is nothing to discuss apart from "I think that blizz might be at fault somehow somewhere, but I do not know how, when and what".

    You cannot be wrong, it is always possible,  I also said, it is always possible that you are an orc, but does that mean anything meaningful?

     On what basis can I not bring in bobbyjr? My entire point and post has been to debunk his flawed logic. At no point have I accused Blizzard of anything. You are attempting to put words in my mouth.

    I merely provide examples of logic. Not of Blizzard doing anything. If I were on the conspiracy bandwagon I would expect this arguement against me. However, I have made no such accusations against Blizzard. All I have done is cite that it is an invalid arguement to state that it is fact that Blizzard is not at fault in any way and also that it is invalid to state that every single complaint regarding a compromised account is the end users fault.

    I have no evidence that I need to provide. I have nothing to say regarding your attempts to say that I am doing or needing something I don't.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by NightCloak

     Ever hear of an alibi? Its very definition is defending yourself from the accuser.

    I am not accusing Blizzard of anything. I only am stating that his bobbyjr's accusation that 100% of the hacked account claims are end-user fault is erroneously based on the lack of evidence saying Blizzard is not at fault.

    I include Blizzard in the possiblity of accounts being compromised. I would say that there is a fair chance that in at least 1 case that they are at fault in some way.

    My logic is in no way flawed. You need not evidence or proof to say someone may have done something if there is no proof or evidence to say that they didn't.

    It is slander if I did say Blizzard did do something without any basis at all. However, there is reason to believe they have fault when there are quite a few unexplained compromises.

    Burden of proof walks both ways. For Blizzard to say its not thier fault at all they need to prove it. For someone to say its Blizzards fault they need to prove it. For someone to say its 100% end user, they need to be able to prove it. Sure, they have a good track record. But so did Bernie Madoff until he was caught.

    Again, its not about if they really did do anything. Its about how insane the claim is that because there is no proof that they did do it, then it must be always the end-user.

    Someone can have an alibi and still be guilty of a crime, either directly or indirectly.  An alibi is only "proof" that someone was somewhere at a specific time and even then may or may not be truthful or factual.

    There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that end users are getting hacked by the truckload every day.  You can look anywhere and see dozens of examples where people who thought they were secure got hacked and found out how.  As far as I can tell every provable situation has shown to be end user error... even when those end users cry that it couldn't possibly be their fault. 

    There are no examples to show blizzard is at fault.  There are a lot of ignorant users who do not understand how they were hacked, but that in itself is not proof.  Somehow one specific possibility is being picked out to explain the unknown and treated as if it is a fact. 

     

    If someone accuses blizzard of being responsible for hacked accounts they are burdened with providing some proof to back up those claims.   That is how it works.  If you take someone to court and can't prove they did something wrong, you lose and you might find yourself open to legal actions for making such public claims.  It isn't the responsibility of blizzard to prove they are innocent.

    While it is possible that blizzard has an internal problem, there are plenty of other alternate possibilities, but those are somehow not being treated with the same weight.  In my opinion, most people just need to find someone else to blame for their mistakes. 

  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Someone can have an alibi and still be guilty of a crime, either directly or indirectly.  An alibi is only "proof" that someone was somewhere at a specific time and even then may or may not be truthful or factual.

    There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that end users are getting hacked by the truckload every day.  You can look anywhere and see dozens of examples where people who thought they were secure got hacked and found out how.  As far as I can tell every provable situation has shown to be end user error... even when those end users cry that it couldn't possibly be their fault. 

    There are no examples to show blizzard is at fault.  There are a lot of ignorant users who do not understand how they were hacked, but that in itself is not proof.  Somehow one specific possibility is being picked out to explain the unknown and treated as if it is a fact. 

     

    If someone accuses blizzard of being responsible for hacked accounts they are burdened with providing some proof to back up those claims.   That is how it works.  If you take someone to court and can't prove they did something wrong, you lose and you might find yourself open to legal actions for making such public claims.  It isn't the responsibility of blizzard to prove they are innocent.

    While it is possible that blizzard has an internal problem, there are plenty of other alternate possibilities, but those are somehow not being treated with the same weight.  In my opinion, most people just need to find someone else to blame for their mistakes. 

     Thing is, no one is saying that the end user isn't at fault. A few of us made the mistake of suggesting the possiblity that there could be people working at Blizzard who are working behind the companies back selling orphaned account info (accounts that havent been used in months/years) to a 3rd party for a quick buck.

    Now we have a few dim bulbs telling us that we need to prove that it's possible by showing evidence or it's just BS and can never happen. Then you have the same people saying that it's 100% the end users fault without providing proof that each and every person who has had a compromised account is at fault other than using specculation based on a few instances.

    Thats like saying every passenger involved in a plane crash died on impact. While it might be true for some of them to have died on impact, others may have died before the impact from things like a heart attack, stroke, brain aneurysm, etc.

    Our 'it's possible' theory just states that there could be more than just the impact as a cause of death.

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    Originally posted by Rydeson

    And thank you for your opinion Torik.. :)

    What opinion?  I only stated a widely know fact about WoW addons that he seemed to be completely unaware of and which nullified the premise of his argument.

    It was the equivalent of accusing the US government of covering up that Oswald acted alone and the CIA was not involved in any way.

  • SerenesSerenes Member UncommonPosts: 350

    I was hacked about a year ago. After I changed Emails I have got no fake emails or anything. My GF has had her account for almost 4 years and never got 1 Fake Email. You have no Idea what kind of lengths they will go to get your account. Just signing up for a Site that reveals your email and has anything too do with WoW will put you on there list.

  • generals3generals3 Member Posts: 3,307

    First , to anyone claiming you need evidence because this or that. Catch this: both sides are accusing someone ! One side accuses the end users and the others accuses blizzard. By that logic either BOTH provide 100% bulletproof evidence or both put their ego aside and start accepting others may have their own theories . Sure you can be sceptical and express that and ask for further elaboration/evidence . But stop the "you need to give evidence" because in this case both should do it. Can anyone give evidence about blizzard either having leacks in their staff or data security? Nope . Can anyone prove that every hacked account was due to end-user's mistakes? Nope . So get a grip.

    Now off course some might claim that certain things are facts whithout evidence (science doesn't work that way anymore :/) and i think these people should think about it a bit more because at the end of the day it's only a theory or theories. It could be possible but i could also be totally false. I personally think quite some things do bring questions up and i like to keep my mind open. I'm not screaming blizzard is guilty but some things do appear fishy and who knows?

    Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
    Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by fyerwall

     Thing is, no one is saying that the end user isn't at fault. A few of us made the mistake of suggesting the possiblity that there could be people working at Blizzard who are working behind the companies back selling orphaned account info (accounts that havent been used in months/years) to a 3rd party for a quick buck.

    Now we have a few dim bulbs telling us that we need to prove that it's possible by showing evidence or it's just BS and can never happen. Then you have the same people saying that it's 100% the end users fault without providing proof that each and every person who has had a compromised account is at fault other than using specculation based on a few instances.

    Thats like saying every passenger involved in a plane crash died on impact. While it might be true for some of them to have died on impact, others may have died before the impact from things like a heart attack, stroke, brain aneurysm, etc.

    Our 'it's possible' theory just states that there could be more than just the impact as a cause of death.

    It isn't a mistake to suggest that it is possible as long as things are kept in context.  Such as there being no viable information to suggest this is probable.  There are a number of people here that are treating it as the truth in the situation.  As if being unable to prove it isn't happening is somehow proof that it is. 

    In your airplane analogy it doesn't matter how they died, because the plane crash was responsible for the entire situation.  I somehow doubt any of those passangers would ignore the fact that their plane crashed and turn around to blame their doctors for not properly diagnosing their medical conditions as a result of their death and they might have survived otherwise.  Even though every other healthy passenger was vaporized on impact.

    Other than that I see what your saying and I do agree. Both sides of the debate have areas that overlap.

  • NightCloakNightCloak Member UncommonPosts: 452

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by fyerwall

     Thing is, no one is saying that the end user isn't at fault. A few of us made the mistake of suggesting the possiblity that there could be people working at Blizzard who are working behind the companies back selling orphaned account info (accounts that havent been used in months/years) to a 3rd party for a quick buck.

    Now we have a few dim bulbs telling us that we need to prove that it's possible by showing evidence or it's just BS and can never happen. Then you have the same people saying that it's 100% the end users fault without providing proof that each and every person who has had a compromised account is at fault other than using specculation based on a few instances.

    Thats like saying every passenger involved in a plane crash died on impact. While it might be true for some of them to have died on impact, others may have died before the impact from things like a heart attack, stroke, brain aneurysm, etc.

    Our 'it's possible' theory just states that there could be more than just the impact as a cause of death.

    It isn't a mistake to suggest that it is possible as long as things are kept in context.  Such as there being no viable information to suggest this is probable.  There are a number of people here that are treating it as the truth in the situation.  As if being unable to prove it isn't happening is somehow proof that it is. 

    In your airplane analogy it doesn't matter how they died, because the plane crash was responsible for the entire situation.  I somehow doubt any of those passangers would ignore the fact that their plane crashed and turn around to blame their doctors for not properly diagnosing their medical conditions as a result of their death and they might have survived otherwise.  Even though every other healthy passenger was vaporized on impact.

    Other than that I see what your saying and I do agree. Both sides of the debate have areas that overlap.

     If there is no proof to suggest Blizzard is guilty of at least 1 account compromise does it mean they didn't do it? No. If there is no proff to suggest Blizzard is 100% innocent does that mean they arn't? No. There is just no proof out there regarding Blizzard's end.

    There is proof showing many instances of end-user error. There is also some convincing reasonable doubt regarding it being end user error in some cases. Does this mean that Blizzard is at fault for any of this? No.

    However, I will say that anyone who defends Blizzard without basis is guilty of just as much as those who point thier fingers at Blizzard. I do not blame Blizzard nor do I accuse them of anything. I do, however, believe that there are lots of innocent victims that did nothing, not even a mistake on their end, to cause thier account to be compromised.

    The truth that we know is that its happening and happening a lot. And the reality of the matter is it doesn't matter who's compromising the account as much as it matters to crack down on the source, which is gold sellers.

    Unless you really do wear tinfoil hats and subscribe to some seriously flawed theories...

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by NightCloak

     If there is no proof to suggest Blizzard is guilty of at least 1 account compromise does it mean they didn't do it? No. If there is no proff to suggest Blizzard is 100% innocent does that mean they arn't? No. There is just no proof out there regarding Blizzard's end.

    I'm not sure I can lay blame at the doorstep of someone just because something is theoritically possible.  If that were the case we can blame anyone for anything simply because they cannot establish their innocence when someone makes an accusation without anything to support it.  There is a reason justice systems work with the innocent until proven guilty principle.  It can be impossible to prove innocence and that makes it hard to accept possibility as reality.

    Seeing the complete lack of any information showing blizzard to be responsible and the mountains of information of end user error I think it is only reasonable to go with that assumption that end users are misbehaving. 

    Really this argument seems to only be brought up by people who refuse to believe that they are just as vulnerable to threats on the internet as everyone else is.  There always seems to be a reason why they are invulnerable and the fault must lay with someone or something else.

     

    There should be only 2 parties that have a users account information.  Blizzard and the end user.  If anyone else gets ahold of it then it must have its origins from one of those two, regardless of who willing they were in the loss of that information.  They are the only 2 that can be held responsible for data loss of this nature.  Either it was gotten directly from blizzard vai hack or inside job... or the enduser did SOMETHING that put that information at risk.  If the end user didn't do it, then it must have been blizzard.

  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by fyerwall

     Thing is, no one is saying that the end user isn't at fault. A few of us made the mistake of suggesting the possiblity that there could be people working at Blizzard who are working behind the companies back selling orphaned account info (accounts that havent been used in months/years) to a 3rd party for a quick buck.

    Now we have a few dim bulbs telling us that we need to prove that it's possible by showing evidence or it's just BS and can never happen. Then you have the same people saying that it's 100% the end users fault without providing proof that each and every person who has had a compromised account is at fault other than using specculation based on a few instances.

    Thats like saying every passenger involved in a plane crash died on impact. While it might be true for some of them to have died on impact, others may have died before the impact from things like a heart attack, stroke, brain aneurysm, etc.

    Our 'it's possible' theory just states that there could be more than just the impact as a cause of death.

    It isn't a mistake to suggest that it is possible as long as things are kept in context.  Such as there being no viable information to suggest this is probable.  There are a number of people here that are treating it as the truth in the situation.  As if being unable to prove it isn't happening is somehow proof that it is. 

    In your airplane analogy it doesn't matter how they died, because the plane crash was responsible for the entire situation.  I somehow doubt any of those passangers would ignore the fact that their plane crashed and turn around to blame their doctors for not properly diagnosing their medical conditions as a result of their death and they might have survived otherwise.  Even though every other healthy passenger was vaporized on impact.

    Other than that I see what your saying and I do agree. Both sides of the debate have areas that overlap.

    Actually for the airplane analogy it does matter. The analogy was an example of the whole debate going on in this thread. It wasn't aimed at who or what is responsible for the crash, but rather what the cause of death was for the passengers. If someone died before the plane even hit the ground, the crash would not be the cause. Same for the debate, no one is stating that its Blizzards fault nor is it 100% the fault of the end user in every situation.

    Some people here automatically assume its all the end users fault, when in fact they have no idea what really went down. They just assume that because Blizzard hasn't told the public about any possible employees commiting fraud that it can't/won't and will never happen. And everyone who has ever worked in the corporate world knows that companies like to keep as much to themselves as possible to prevent getting bad press, hence why companies like Blizzard have Internal Affairs departments, NDA's and $4k/hour lawyers on hand to prevent said bad press. The fact is that we wont know what happened unless they wanted us to know what happened. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    For the people who claim it isn't a possiblity; If it isn't possible, why does Blizzard have an Internal Affairs as well as an Internal Fraud department?

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,400

    Read the links...Don't just assume....

    I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to say blizzard is out selling accounts.  I don't think it's far off the mark to think that some EMPLOYEES (especially since Mr Kotick took over and tries to work people to the point of quitting) became disgruntled or just wanted more money, and might have "leaked" some to some sites.

    Just because you might be perfect and have tons of money and would never do this, doesn't mean some others wouldn't.  Especially since it seems to be so very profitable.

     

    As I said, I used to think everyone who said anything but it is entierly your fault for losing your account / tin foil hat people.  But with some of my friends who don't just "make their own computers". It's part of their professions.  Having 3 people in my guild get hacked in the same week some many months ago was just plain weird.  Having others that I know how to protect their computers was also very strange.

    Again, if you think we are saying Blizzard is doing this, please just exit your browser.

  • KorhindiKorhindi Member CommonPosts: 395

    I bought a new computer and switched to Battle.net.  I then cancelled my WoW account due to not playing.  I had my new machine for a whole 6 hours when I converted to Battle.net and then canceled.  I hadn't even gone to an email site.  My Mobo fries 10 minutes later and I end up with a new machine.

     

    6 months later, my innactive account gets hacked.  No trojans or malware and I did not ever go to my account or my battle.net address.  I did not use addons at anytime during my WoW play.

     

    My roomie had his innactive account hacked at the exact same time, but our other roomate did not get hacked as he never made the conversion to Battle.net.  We never shared account info.

     

    While trying to get the mess cleared up, I get hacked and phished multiple times despite having zero malware.  Switching email addresses and passwords did not help. 

     

    Then,  I resub.  I have been subbed since.  I have not been phished or hacked once since.

     

    It does make one wonder. 

     

    My innactive Aion account, however, seems to be just fine.

  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602

    Originally posted by Torik

    On the other hand I would not be suprised if a list of emails was stolen by a Blizzard employee and sold to various hacking sites.

     this is a better reason. I don't believe in a scam.

    Either the hackers had someone apply for a job and steal accountdata or they paid someone for the data. It's common in every type of business.

    I also receive the emails. I don't get it why the "internetpolice" isn't shutting down those sites. Batt1e.net is obvious not a fansite. While they are trying to shut down piratebay and such, please hunt down those sites aswell.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by fyerwall

    Actually for the airplane analogy it does matter. The analogy was an example of the whole debate going on in this thread. It wasn't aimed at who or what is responsible for the crash, but rather what the cause of death was for the passengers. If someone died before the plane even hit the ground, the crash would not be the cause. Same for the debate, no one is stating that its Blizzards fault nor is it 100% the fault of the end user in every situation.

    Some people here automatically assume its all the end users fault, when in fact they have no idea what really went down. They just assume that because Blizzard hasn't told the public about any possible employees commiting fraud that it can't/won't and will never happen. And everyone who has ever worked in the corporate world knows that companies like to keep as much to themselves as possible to prevent getting bad press, hence why companies like Blizzard have Internal Affairs departments, NDA's and $4k/hour lawyers on hand to prevent said bad press. The fact is that we wont know what happened unless they wanted us to know what happened. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    For the people who claim it isn't a possiblity; If it isn't possible, why does Blizzard have an Internal Affairs as well as an Internal Fraud department?

    The analogy doesn't matter, because it isn't representative of the issue.  You are trying to shoehorn it into relevance by focusing on something that doesn't have the same issues.  In a broad general sense of things it might make some sort of sence, but it doesn't represent the situation at all.  Not to mention the plane crash caused the death of all your passengers.  The act of being in a crashing plane triggered those health conditions seems pretty relevant don't you think? 

    In your second paragraph you go beyond saying something is possible and cross the line into borderline treating it as if it is happening.  You are right that the lack of evidence isn't proof that there is no evidence, but barring the lack of evidence and the overwhelming amount of evidence that it is end user problems there is no reason to speculate that there is a second problem.  If this was such a big issue as people are speculating then eventually some angry ex blizzard employee would spill the beans.  Things like this have a way of coming to the attention of the public. 

    People get their identity stolen everyday, because they have horribly unsafe internet habits and for the most part are ignorant of internet security.  Is it possible that bank employees are selling personal information to the deposed leader of liberia?  Sure, anything is possible, but without any information to suggest that is happening why should we think it is? 

    When millions of people are doing something to get their identity stolen and the next person in line says "I don't know how they got my information, so it must be the banks fault".  What possible reason is there to believe that? 

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by Khealler

    Originally posted by Torik

    On the other hand I would not be suprised if a list of emails was stolen by a Blizzard employee and sold to various hacking sites.

     this is a better reason. I don't believe in a scam.

    Either the hackers had someone apply for a job and steal accountdata or they paid someone for the data. It's common in every type of business.

    I also receive the emails. I don't get it why the "internetpolice" isn't shutting down those sites. Batt1e.net is obvious not a fansite. While they are trying to shut down piratebay and such, please hunt down those sites aswell.

    What internet police and what law is being broken?  For that matter what country are you calling the police in?

    Furthermore, why would anyone need to infiltrate blizzzard to steal email lists when players have been posting their emails all over the internet for years?  There are much easier ways to get email addresses.

     

    I have an email address that I use for nothing but battle.net and have never received 1 piece of spam.  Not even account hacking spam.

    I have 4 other email accounts that I have used over various sites and none attached to any wow accounts.  I get account hacking spam almost daily on 3 of them so far. 

  • TrunksZTrunksZ Member Posts: 263

     

    Look I had an old email that I used for just games and I used that for my first WoW account, everything was cool, but then I bought some chinese gold and I get spams everyday since, but my email that is linked with my battlenet account has yet to receive one spam email from blizzard, so all of you that are receiving spam is either because you bought gold or used on a chinese farmer site.

  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    What internet police and what law is being broken?  For that matter what country are you calling the police in?

    Furthermore, why would anyone need to infiltrate blizzzard to steal email lists when players have been posting their emails all over the internet for years?  There are much easier ways to get email addresses.

     

    I have an email address that I use for nothing but battle.net and have never received 1 piece of spam.  Not even account hacking spam.

    I have 4 other email accounts that I have used over various sites and none attached to any wow accounts.  I get account hacking spam almost daily on 3 of them so far. 

     There are several laws broken, at least within the EU. The fishing emails can be considered as spam, which is also not allowed in several European countries. Impersonating is a big nono. Even if there are no laws broken, they are going to when those sites have served their purpose. So I guess the EU would look into this or Anti-Phishing Working Group.

    If you read peoples posts, you can read that their WoW exclusive emails are getting spams. In my case, my free gmail and hotmail accounts are not getting any spams and my "paid" account is getting the wow fishing. I only used that account for WoW and nothing else. I was not even bothered to signup for battlenet, because I left WoW right after TBC. The emails started to come in last year with 1 each week and now I have 3-5 each day. You tell me how they managed to get a hold of my email adress and many others.

    I do believe they have someone on the inside. And I have been stealing cookies from my mum when I was young. When I took all the cookies, she noticed it. When I only took a few, I could walk away free. My guess is that they only take small batches of emailadresses or that they only have access to a limited number of data.

  • kariannekarianne Member Posts: 30

    I just reactivated my account this week after 4 years of inactivity. I never converted to battlenet or anything because i unsubbed the first year that WoW came out. I got rid of the computer that I used to log in with three years ago and changed my email and isp when I moved. When I resubbed this week I had to call customer service because my inactive account had been reactivated and attached to a foreign battlenet account earlier this year. It had been caught doing gold selling spam and suspended. The csr said a lot of zombie accounts had been hacked and reactivated and when I asked how he said maybe someone had phished my computer four years ago and waited three years to use the account. That makes no sense at all to me. It seems more likely that there was a breach of security somewhere on their end. I have not received the email spams that others are reportin in this thread.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by Khealler

     There are several laws broken, at least within the EU. The fishing emails can be considered as spam, which is also not allowed in several European countries. Impersonating is a big nono. Even if there are no laws broken, they are going to when those sites have served their purpose. So I guess the EU would look into this or Anti-Phishing Working Group.

    If you read peoples posts, you can read that their WoW exclusive emails are getting spams. In my case, my free gmail and hotmail accounts are not getting any spams and my "paid" account is getting the wow fishing. I only used that account for WoW and nothing else. I was not even bothered to signup for battlenet, because I left WoW right after TBC. The emails started to come in last year with 1 each week and now I have 3-5 each day. You tell me how they managed to get a hold of my email adress and many others.

    I do believe they have someone on the inside. And I have been stealing cookies from my mum when I was young. When I took all the cookies, she noticed it. When I only took a few, I could walk away free. My guess is that they only take small batches of emailadresses or that they only have access to a limited number of data.

    I'm saying that it is much harder to prove something is illegal and thing trying to enforce it over the internet than the other person seems to think it is.  There is nothing even remotely close to an entity of 'internet police' that someone can just call and shut down a website.  All of those actions combined may be against the law, but proving that they are tied to a url might be more difficult.  I'm speaking in gerenalities here mind you.

    As for your account, I can't give you a definitive answer, because I don't know everything you have done.  Perhaps you surfed the wrong website and they got your information from a cookie?  It is impossible for me to answer your situation since there is so little information to go on. 

    I've read plenty of posts where people have had both wow-only and non-wow emails spammed to death.  I've also read people who think they are immune find out they did do something with their information.  Peoples lack of understanding of the situation doesn't move me to find their claims credible. 

    For this leak at blizzard to be reality it would mean that it is very large and has been going on for years nonstop, because there is a never ending supply of people blaming blizzard for giving out their information.  Think about that for a moment.  Years upon years people have been making this claim. 

    Now consider that blizzard has spent countless time and effort combating hacked accounts, legal action against gold sellers, programming to counter hacking in game, in email, educating users, updating the website with how-tos and even creating authenticators for free or at cost.  All of that is focused outward.  Do we really think that they couldn't spot some csr selling emails or someone accessing acount details in that time period? 

    It seems a very large leap of faith to think that blizzard has a security breach so large and lasting so many years for all of these claims to have some merit.  Somehow I doubt that blizzard is so inept that they have a constant stream of account information flowing to hackers from within their own ranks and not be able to stop it. 

    The volume and frequency of these claims makes the concept of failure on blizzards part nearly unbelievable.  Especially when considering the alternative of end users and the undeniable fact that end users do stupid things with their information and internet habits. The ability of spammers to get people emails addresses (even for things not involving wow) is without comparison. 

    Spammers are paid professionals who are experts at deceiving people.  So I don't find it to surprising when a spammer gets ahold of someones email and they don't understand how it happened.

  • EloasEloas Member Posts: 11

    I figure I might as well chime in too, seems to be the thing to do.

    So I quit Wow November of last year, cancelled my sub, unistalled it, the whole shubang. At this time I had also been played LotRO for about a year and it was now my primary mmo. Fast Forward to February and I get an email from Bliz saying my account had gotten a 3 day suspention, I chalked this up as a scam email, since my friend was currently being plagued with them as well. But I figured "what the heck" and I went to battle.net to log in, well guess who's password was different and now had an authenticator (from an unknown source). So the fiasco of waiting on the phone for 8 hours to talk to a service rep (I'm not about the let the hackers win and it was the weekend). I get the authenticator removed and my account is now mine again. I did get some free time thanks to Mr. Hackers 2 month time card, the first 2 weeks of which I spent waiting for my characters to be recovered. I took all their suggested precautions to "keep my computer safe", including multiple scans and rescans for virus with and without WoW open. And of course changing all my passwords.

    Fast Forward again to a month ago. I reactive my account, because some friends who have since moved out of town are gonna start playing and I'm gonna join them. Within 2 weeks, I get an email from Bliz saying they detected a virus/keylogger on my computer and have temperarily deactivaed (or something like that) my account so I don't get compromised. So I figure whatever was there from last time I somehow didn't get rid of it, so I do the most painful thing and reformat my hard drive. So I reinstall everything get my account back again from Bliz. Submit my ticket to get my chars back, which were deleted again (guess you weren't quick enough to prevent my account being compromised Bliz). Wait the 1.5 weeks for my chars to come back and here we are.

    All this time I haven't had a single problem with either my LotRO account which has been active and played this entire time, nor my Guild Wars account, which was also played.

    I'm joining the ranks of the tin foil hatters.

    [Tin Foil Hat]

    +150% Bliz Skepticism

    Requires 1 WoW Account Hack

    Edit: To revome possible arguments, I have upto date virus, spyware, malware, etc. blockers/scanners. I also run Firefox, with NoScript (saw scripts mentioned before). I don't follow email links, always just use the address bar (that that way they can't fake you out with the site address that is linked). Can't think of anything else, but thought I'd cover my bases.

    Edit 2: Just one more cover my ass point. I'm not saying it's Bliz's fault jet saying ts possible. I think far and away the disguntled employee is the most likely scenario as others have stated. In support of that I think would be very odd for hackers/phishers to pick up and use so many accounts in such a short time. As well as adding the authenticator seems odd for a hacker, but then again I'm nt to familiar with hacking protocal.

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