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Permadeath, the cure.

2

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  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Originally posted by Joliust

    That is the exact kind of thinking that is ruining this genre. "No one has done that before so it must be a terrible idea."

    It have nothing to do with innovation.

    It's just an obvious bad design.  (In terms of profit for the developer) 

    The truth is people who died in permadeath is likely to quit and stop playing(and stop paying the developer money).

    Diablo 2 have permadeath server.  And that works.  Because it's a pay once and play forever game.  The developer already got your money.  They dont' care if you get fed up with dieing and quit.  I played on permadeath server for diablo2.  In fact I'm the second person on the east-server to reach max level after expansion.  The truth alot of people just quit when they died.  I know a few of my grind buddy died, and quit playing.

    So if there's going to be permadeath MMO, it'll only work for buy once and play forever games(for example Guild War).

  • Andromedus1Andromedus1 Member Posts: 67

    Good post OP.  I read your post, got to the first line of the first reply: "Heres' the problem with permadeath in a nutshell, and why your suggestion has no merit" and remembered that this community is generally too unintelligent to consider ideas outside the current mainstream.  Then, I saw the flamers, the "omg learn to be hardcore" posters, etc., and remembered why I stopped coming to this site.  So, to you, this is my response:

     

    I also grew up in the "not everyone gets a trophy" generation.  Today, every kid is a winner, loss is largely superficial, and the purpose of multiplayer videogames is tending towards cinematography and content, and away from social challenges.  The paradigm shifted somewhere around 2001, in my opinion, although I can't put my finger on the exact game.  In any case, I'm inclined to agree with your statement that some people may be born competitive, and in that sense enjoy the adrenaline rush of both loss and taking.  Where there is loss, there is gain, and where they are found, there is where you will find human nature in all of its fascinating political manifestations.  Where there is vulnerability, there is protection, where there is power, there is weakness, where there is ecstatic victory, there is abysmal grief.  These are the strongest emotions a game can hope to evoke, and it is the emotional aspect of games that make them worthy to be considered art.  The cinematographical aspect of video games is actually the shallowest form of art they can aspire to, being that they have the unique advantage of offering far deeper, more meaningful, and more biting emotional responses and lessons.

     

    Your idea about a family lineage is a great one.  I might even expand on it and infuse it with a Buddhist style of reincarnation.  Say everyone begins as a lowly race, or species, and as you level, and are eventually killed, you may hope to reincarnate as the next tier (depending on the actions of your previous life).  There are all sorts of directions you could go with this, but I digress...

     

    One thing I read in someone's response which I take issue with in particular, is that "level content" must be repeated and re-repeated in a perma-death system.  Such thinking is close-minded.  First, it assumes levels, which is on its face ridiculous.  Secondly, it assumes that content is mostly coder-driven, when in fact if we are switching the paradigm from cinematography and quests to social challenges, the primary content would in fact be other players.  This means that content would never actually repeat itself, but instead be an ever-evolving political landscape.  I have seen such a thing take place in a harsh MMO, and although that MMO lacked permadeath, permadeath would not have been out of place in the game. 

  • theinhibitortheinhibitor Member Posts: 48

    Originally posted by Joliust

    That is the exact kind of thinking that is ruining this genre. "No one has done that before so it must be a terrible idea."

    Actually, most of the time, if no one has done it before, then it probably IS A BAD IDEA. MMO's have to be flexible. Permadeath makes them inflexible.

    Also MMO's have to show something for effort and time played. Not saying you have to grind, but you have to do SOMETHING to accomplish quests, get stats, or evolve or whatever. 

    U could have quasi-death, but it cant be too harsh because you probably will die at some point. 

    i also dislike people who constantly dis the genre, stating its gong downhill, dying, etc because there is no innovation. do you really think that the thousand companies making MMO's havent gone through millions ideas and scrutinized each one?

    want to know something? the architecture of the intel chip running your comp right now was developed almost 40 years ago and hasnt changed. there has been NO innovation in the area. want to know why? because it works really well

    /theinhibitor/

  • brostynbrostyn Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,092

    Originally posted by theinhibitor

    do you really think that the thousand companies making MMO's havent gone through millions ideas and scrutinized each one?

     

    First off I don't think there are a thousand. Secondly, they are too busy copying each other. That's what companies do. They copy each other, and then try to make that copy slightly better.



    Its why Papa Johns, Pizza Hut and Dominos are almost the exact same thing. Its why McDonalds, Arby's, Hardees, are almost the exact same thing. Its why Apple Bees, O'Charley's, Olive Garden are almost the exact same thing.

    Its far cheaper to copy what is out there, than to reinvent the wheel. Its a cynical approach, but the companies aren't here to make sure we are pleased as possible. They are there to make money. That is all.

  • theinhibitortheinhibitor Member Posts: 48

    Originally posted by brostyn

    Originally posted by theinhibitor

    do you really think that the thousand companies making MMO's havent gone through millions ideas and scrutinized each one?

     

    First off I don't think there are a thousand. Secondly, they are too busy copying each other. That's what companies do. They copy each other, and then try to make that copy slightly better.



    Its why Papa Johns, Pizza Hut and Dominos are almost the exact same thing. Its why McDonalds, Arby's, Hardees, are almost the exact same thing. Its why Apple Bees, O'Charley's, Olive Garden are almost the exact same thing.

    Its far cheaper to copy what is out there, than to reinvent the wheel. Its a cynical approach, but the companies aren't here to make sure we are pleased as possible. They are there to make money. That is all.

    1st, all of the companies you just listed are not copies of each other. its like saying microsoft and apple are copies of each other because they both make pc's. they also each have a purpose, and whether or not there purposes are the same, they seem to satisfy that purpose really really well (they make billions). also the reason why these companies are big is because they usually did find some new way of preparing food, making it cheaper, faster delivery, etc. they are also competing with each and trying new things (innovating). 

    2nd, you usually cant just reinvent the wheel. its very hard to do and it usually happens in incredibly small industries. to put it simply, the wright brothers invented the airplane and we have been improving it ever since. and now we have airplanes that were beyond their imagination.

    to apply this to MMO's, we started with...MUD (i think?) and then proceeded to build on that style, and finally we ended up with WoW or similar and WoW is very very different than MUD.   U cant say a game "reinvented the wheel" if it just adds some new aspect. 

    sure there are games that try to copy, companies that break open some new technology and try to make it better, but that technology usually came from an evolution of previous ideas. also, as i pointed out earlier, competition breeds innovation. u cant just crack open a sony tv, remake it, and sell it for billions due to so many reasons i wont even try listing them

    When i said a thousand i was exaggerating of course. But we are seeing many smaller companies attempting to make MMO's and trying various new things, even if their overall game is a "copy" of some other game

    /theinhibitor/

  • neosapienceneosapience Member Posts: 164

    Permadeath is just a bad idea. What's needed is a combat system that makes it difficult for anyone (or anything) to kill you. That way, you can justify a hefty death penalty and keep the game balanced.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    Originally posted by TSamee

    While I do understand the "stagnant content" argument in regards to developing a new character after death, I believe I have a solution. In a themepark-style MMO, the argument holds true, but in a skill-based sandbox it could work. Such an MMO doesn't exist, to be honest; EVE, Mortal and Darkfall all rely primarily on stats as a measure of a player's proficiency, meaning that players with the best stats can become the ultimate gankers in a perma-death environment. However, in an MMO with mechanics based solely on skill (closest I've seen so far is Puzzle Pirates, folks. Seriously), perma-death would be a good way to deliver punishment to trolls and gankers. Just an idea, and one with many flaws, but it's obvious that, while perma-death can work, there aren't any MMOs out there that it would work with. A game, skill-based, stat-based or otherwise, would have to be designed from the ground up to accomodate perma-death.

     

    And now you've removed progression, because success is based on player skill, not stats. Death means nothing more than a name change.

    image

  • fnorgbyfnorgby Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Besides, people can do permadeath on their own in any game on the market.  It's just another case of people who don't really want to play that way, they want to force everyone else to do it too.

     

     

    To be fair, they aren't exactly the same thing -- real permadeath and "honor system" permadeath.  Not all people who advocate for it are trying to change your gaming experience (but yeah, there are a lot of knuckleheads who do, so I feel where you're coming from). I don't play permadeath that often, but it would be nice to have the option.  For all its flaws, Hellgate was pretty good about this -- HC characters and normal could occupy the same servers, but couldn't trade/party with normals. HC folks got a different color nametag, plus an icon indicating they were HC.  For those who like epeen-waving, it let them be recognized without forcing anything on other players.

    What I think an MMO could do along these lines is:

    A player who has not died gets their name in orange instead of normal yellow (for example).  To keep the orange name, s/he must not die and must not trade with any non-HC players (including auction house purchases).  When you die the first time, you rez as normal but with a yellow name and trade restrictions lifted.  If you want to keep on playing, no one's the wiser.  Most _true_ permadeath players would reroll just to get the orange tag back.

    This could be implemented as an option at character creation -- but...  if it were set up so that everyone starts with an orange name until they die the first time, it might *encourage* some people who otherwise wouldn't have thought about it.  If average carebear-type notices he just made lvl 15 and still hadn't died, he might start playing differently and the extra excitement from trying to iron-man might just convince him to reroll when he does die, and try for lvl 16...

    I suppose you could even let orange names PVP against normals.  You could even let them party together as long as the orange name gets no loot or XP from the party.  I doubt very many srs permadeath players would be that reckless, but hey.  Let 'em if they want.

    I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    I could see having a perma death switch you could enable, possibly at max level.

    You get three lives, to account for going link dead, lag, etc. After all three deaths, you are perma dead.

     

    Maybe the incentive to go perma dead is a bonus on your next character roll to encourage alts.

     

    That is the classic D&D paper and pencil game. You played characters, and most of the time they didn't die, you made it to max level, and then there was nothing to do, because you were so powerful. You'd already explored the planes, killed Dragons and Gods and Demons, many times.

    So, you died a heroes death saving the world or something, and then you rolled a new character.

    They didn't just ad expansion after expansion after expansion.

    What the heck, you've already killed Demogorgon and all the other Gods, what's next? Eat Universes for breakfast? oK, WHAT after that?

    image

  • fnorgbyfnorgby Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    That is the classic D&D paper and pencil game. You played characters, and most of the time they didn't die, you made it to max level, and then there was nothing to do, because you were so powerful. You'd already explored the planes, killed Dragons and Gods and Demons, many times.



    Interesting...  I played my a** off in D&D for many years and never hit max level.  I didn't even know there was a max... 

    We always just rolled new dudes for each new game.

    Oh wait..  if it happened post- d20, then maybe that explains it.  I spent about 80% of my D&D days with the "three book set", and about 20% playing "Advanced" (by which I mean the first DM guide, monster manual etc.).  Back then, you just added a new level every (vague memory here) 1,250,000 XP. 

    I've played some d20 (3.5 I think) and liked it a lot but never could find anyone my age who still wanted to play :(

    I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825

    The only thing this would be a cure for is you guys who keep sugesting it, that said I do agree MMO's are in a dire straights when it comes to depth and variety. :)

  • GadarethGadareth Member UncommonPosts: 310

    The problem with perma death especially in a PvP centric game is rather than being self policing it would infact become the game of choice for griefers. It would encourage people not so much too be polite but more to choose fights they know they can win. In PvP this would roughly equate to killing people who are much lower level than you, rather thn risk a more even fight.

    Yes, it is possible that with a mature and well mannered population guilds would move in and protect people. BUT can we really count on it ?

    Furthermore, as others have mentioned LDs (Link deaths) are still a common occurence, also someone who has adventured all the way up to the higher rankings in a mmorpg after months (sometimes years) of effort is not likely to continue from scratch when killed.

    Lastly, permadeath works in a pen and paper game because there isa real life GM making sure its controlled and ensuring at least a degree of balance in it (i.e. the player at least feels he has a chance and a hope of survival).

     

    So no, permadeath is really not a viable soloution.

     

    Gadareth

  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    It's a bad game mechanic.  If you don't understand that then you don't understand human behavior.  Yes, some things sound good in theory but the actual practice is quite different than in theory. 

     

    First off, when people invest time in their characters they expect a pay off of some kind.  That could be new abilities, gear, access to new zones, etc.  If you are constantly dying you have to repeat the same content over and over, which would lead to boredome and frustration. 

     

    And how many of us have been in the middle of a battle lagged out or had the game crash to desktop?  It happens.  And yet in a permadeath situation through no fault of you own you are penalized and have to go back to the beginning.  Then people would get angry because they died through no fault of their own.

     

    Also, early adopters of the game would have a significant advantage and crush new people coming up.  So the game would probably start with X population and then dwindle steadily till it died.

  • wisesquirrelwisesquirrel Member UncommonPosts: 282

    I would suggest people read the replies below the original OP before sayign anything, this thread is another yet important discussion of a mechanic.

    You are supposed to read the thread in its entirety to be able to learn and see what other people think or coem up with.

    Permadeath is hard to put in an MMO that is ttrue, but you people are comparing it to our current MMOs (Crap mechanics and crap systems to be honest) which were not designed for permadeath and are just lazy grind to lvl 80 static quest coding.

    I would apreciate it if someone commented on my previous post so it could be polished further instead of saying this won't work because MMOs are WoW style and have no hopes of changing (I am looking to change that since I dread games of such style of leveling).

  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329


    Originally posted by wisesquirrel
    What if the content of said MMORPG were dynamic and not static in the form of quests where you have to kill 20 mobs of a mob that takes 5 minutes to kill in an area where it is rare due to 50 players doing the same quest? (Hilarious memories)
    A breathign world where quests are governed by player actions, random events, faction control and seasons would indeed smite this repetitiveness.
    Customizing your character might be a pain when leveling up the same class/build, maybe add the feature of "path", as you level up you may choose your character to make a path, when it dies, the "path" is saved and you may choose a new character to follow the steps of the old one having the customizing be automatic until you choose to turn it off.
    Ganked at lvl 1 because of a sad ganker?, have there be a timer in which you can revive in a nearby town at a cost until say 10 days have been reached (Considering we are not speaking 80 grindful levels of wow, maybe 20 levels at best).
    Permadeath too easy?, have a bar with say 3 life stacks, lives cost a LOT of money. If you are cautious enough and the aera you are in is not at war, there is a chance you might never perma die if you choose the path of peace and society, keeping killing to a minimal.
    An MMORPG that works on 6 month to 1 year sessions that would build the world lore each with their own theme (World begins, PVE threats attack villages, a challenge to rule the world under a single nation by lowering the penalties of death in said session).
    MMORPGs may give the sensation of progress through acomplishments you and your character have done in the game world while you can experiment with multiple builds, you died as a warrior, maybe roll an archer and try out assassination and thieving. You may have died, but if it weren't for you and your party of friends village x would have been erased from the map, the king would have been killed, we would have lost the holy relic, our nation would have lost a LOT of funds.
    A game as complex as to give dynamic PVE content as well as the balancing of nations is still too much unless the Devs decide to not focus on graphics (Who cares as long as they are acceptable, in my opinion too much graphics ina game is ugly)
    I'd say it is definetely possible and not a financial fail, will Devs do it?, who knows.

    This is what I was getting at. Sorry I was going to respond but the thoughtless response to my post underneath this disheartened me so much I didn't bother.

    I completely agree with this. People are too quick to dismiss perma-death because they aren't thinking of an MMO as just a massively multiplayer game, and they also assume if they and their friends think they don't like it than no one will like it. People are just stuck in this mindset of what an MMO is and isn't. If an mmo sounds to FPS like or too much not like the tradition than they immediately dismiss it as a bad idea. They say things like "I would just play CoD if I wanted to play an FPS." That is fine, but there are people who would like a well done FPS MMO, their are people who want the MMO experience in a new form.

    The dynasty idea is one I have had. A game that revolves around your family line, where raising kids and building up your estate/family status/etc is as important as what you actually do with your character.

    How about assassins and politicians. With perma death, being able to sneak into enemy territory and get past the guards and kill a major player in his base while being able to get out alive would actually mean something. It would also give someone else a crack at Minister of the Interior or whatever.

    There are games that have, essentially perma-death, in other genres like FPS. No one minds too much when they die because they expect to die and nothing is lost that cannot be regained by trying again. Why isn't this the same for MMOs? Because people have grown accustom to a safety net, they have grown accustom to the idea that a character takes 3 months to level, they have grown accustom to do quests and get better loot. So when they hear the idea of losing all that they immediately rally against it without thinking of the possibilities or even that there are people out there who might think differently than them.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • Elitekill4Elitekill4 Member Posts: 99

    You have made an admirable post, OP.

  • TLoZDarkLinkTLoZDarkLink Member Posts: 66

    Originally posted by Joliust

     




    Originally posted by wisesquirrel

    What if the content of said MMORPG were dynamic and not static in the form of quests where you have to kill 20 mobs of a mob that takes 5 minutes to kill in an area where it is rare due to 50 players doing the same quest? (Hilarious memories)

    A breathign world where quests are governed by player actions, random events, faction control and seasons would indeed smite this repetitiveness.

    Customizing your character might be a pain when leveling up the same class/build, maybe add the feature of "path", as you level up you may choose your character to make a path, when it dies, the "path" is saved and you may choose a new character to follow the steps of the old one having the customizing be automatic until you choose to turn it off.

    Ganked at lvl 1 because of a sad ganker?, have there be a timer in which you can revive in a nearby town at a cost until say 10 days have been reached (Considering we are not speaking 80 grindful levels of wow, maybe 20 levels at best).

    Permadeath too easy?, have a bar with say 3 life stacks, lives cost a LOT of money. If you are cautious enough and the aera you are in is not at war, there is a chance you might never perma die if you choose the path of peace and society, keeping killing to a minimal.

    An MMORPG that works on 6 month to 1 year sessions that would build the world lore each with their own theme (World begins, PVE threats attack villages, a challenge to rule the world under a single nation by lowering the penalties of death in said session).

    MMORPGs may give the sensation of progress through acomplishments you and your character have done in the game world while you can experiment with multiple builds, you died as a warrior, maybe roll an archer and try out assassination and thieving. You may have died, but if it weren't for you and your party of friends village x would have been erased from the map, the king would have been killed, we would have lost the holy relic, our nation would have lost a LOT of funds.

    A game as complex as to give dynamic PVE content as well as the balancing of nations is still too much unless the Devs decide to not focus on graphics (Who cares as long as they are acceptable, in my opinion too much graphics ina game is ugly)

    I'd say it is definetely possible and not a financial fail, will Devs do it?, who knows.




     

    This is what I was getting at. Sorry I was going to respond but the thoughtless response to my post underneath this disheartened me so much I didn't bother.

    I completely agree with this. People are too quick to dismiss perma-death because they aren't thinking of an MMO as just a massively multiplayer game, and they also assume if they and their friends think they don't like it than no one will like it. People are just stuck in this mindset of what an MMO is and isn't. If an mmo sounds to FPS like or too much not like the tradition than they immediately dismiss it as a bad idea. They say things like "I would just play CoD if I wanted to play an FPS." That is fine, but there are people who would like a well done FPS MMO, their are people who want the MMO experience in a new form.

    The dynasty idea is one I have had. A game that revolves around your family line, where raising kids and building up your estate/family status/etc is as important as what you actually do with your character.

    How about assassins and politicians. With perma death, being able to sneak into enemy territory and get past the guards and kill a major player in his base while being able to get out alive would actually mean something. It would also give someone else a crack at Minister of the Interior or whatever.

    There are games that have, essentially perma-death, in other genres like FPS. No one minds too much when they die because they expect to die and nothing is lost that cannot be regained by trying again. Why isn't this the same for MMOs? Because people have grown accustom to a safety net, they have grown accustom to the idea that a character takes 3 months to level, they have grown accustom to do quests and get better loot. So when they hear the idea of losing all that they immediately rally against it without thinking of the possibilities or even that there are people out there who might think differently than them.

     

     True, but as I said, most people would be warriors. If an assassin could one shot a warrior in a game like that, then the game is already ruined because stars/daggers/darts/etc weapons are meant to be fast, not fast and deadly. Why bother stealthing if your just going to die from a warrior in the end? Not even to consider that most games now put a detect stealth system or detect stealth skill on some classes. Your dead before you even begin.

  • RednecksithRednecksith Member Posts: 1,238

    Sigh...

    People, until negative technical aspects (lag, crashes, etc.) can be completely removed from the picture, forced permadeath in an MMO is just a horrible, horrible idea.

    The only way I could see it working is to give permadeath lovers (AKA masochists) their own separate server, with a HUGE amount of disclaimers to click through before being able to create a character. Unfortunately, I just don't see a company allocating the resources for an entire server to cater to an extremely niche playstyle.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Originally posted by Joliust

    Oh jeez no really I never noticed that. Don't completely dodge the discussion with some ramblings about how its reality. Just because it is what people do does not make it right.

    Right and wrong are entirely irrelevant.  What is, is.  Deal with it.  If you don't like it, go out and invest millions of dollars of your own money and years of your own time and make any game you want.  When it fails, don't come back here and cry, we already told you so.

    Ok I will play your game. Yeah it happens all the time, and you know what IT SUCKS. Guess what else happens all the time, car accidents. Well since it happens all the time we shouldn't do anything to prevent it. In fact lets argue the merit of it because it happens a lot. Hyperbole or not that is your logic.

    No, don't play the game.  If it's not a good game, don't play it.  If there are no good games, STOP PLAYING MMOs!  If your entire life is going to end because you give up on the genre, then something is seriously wrong with you.  You can try all you want to prevent car accidents, but do you seriously think you'll ever stop them all?  Of course not.  They are a part of reality, so long as you're moving big heavy objects around at high speed, subject to the laws of physics, those objects are going to smash into each other.  Whining that it's not right doesn't change the fact that it's true.

    The reason it happens is because it is easy. It doesn't take much work to just copy someone else. There isn't any: research, testing, creative thinking, making mistakes and learning from them, improving and growing from the experience. It is easier to just look over the shoulder of the top dog and do what they are doing. So something worked the first time, less work and its proven right? Well no, guess what it doesn't work. Recreating an original is rarely a profitable or good idea because you will be competing with the same product that is established and benefiting from experience and time advantages. Except in rare situations when the creators have truly great ideas to grow and expand what they are copying.. oh wait then its not a clone.

    If you seriously think that's how the business world works, you're horribly naive.  While sure, in a perfect world, that's what might happen, this is anything but a perfect world.  Try living in the real world, not the world you wished existed.  You won't be disappointed nearly so often.

    I also don't remember any Harry Potter clones. Probably because they were garbage and no one talked about them.

    They didn't make as much money as Harry Potter, but they made enough that their writers wrote a whole series of books about them and some are continuing to do so.  The Percy Jackson series is up to 6 books now and still going and the movie just came out on DVD.  Just because you don't pay attention doesn't mean it's not out there.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329

    I am not saying an assassin should even be fighting warriors. Assassins should be doing espionage, sabotage, and assassinations of politicians and generals. You would be killing characters that are either non-combat or are "old" warriors. These are just ideas, I realize it would be difficult to create effectively. Not only do you have to make the assassinations difficult and require a lot of planning (should be something that either many dont try, or many don't make it past the guards etc) but you need to make the jobs of the people they are killing fun and rewarding as well.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by Joliust
    Oh jeez no really I never noticed that. Don't completely dodge the discussion with some ramblings about how its reality. Just because it is what people do does not make it right.
    Right and wrong are entirely irrelevant.  What is, is.  Deal with it.  If you don't like it, go out and invest millions of dollars of your own money and years of your own time and make any game you want.  When it fails, don't come back here and cry, we already told you so.
    No, everything you have said is irrelevant. I don't remember demanding that someone make a permadeath MMO. However, you are persistent at arguing me about things that have nothing to do with what I am saying. This whole thread is about the possibilities available but you see determined that talking about anything that hasn't already happened is idiotic
    Ok I will play your game. Yeah it happens all the time, and you know what IT SUCKS. Guess what else happens all the time, car accidents. Well since it happens all the time we shouldn't do anything to prevent it. In fact lets argue the merit of it because it happens a lot. Hyperbole or not that is your logic.
    No, don't play the game.  If it's not a good game, don't play it.  If there are no good games, STOP PLAYING MMOs!  If your entire life is going to end because you give up on the genre, then something is seriously wrong with you.  You can try all you want to prevent car accidents, but do you seriously think you'll ever stop them all?  Of course not.  They are a part of reality, so long as you're moving big heavy objects around at high speed, subject to the laws of physics, those objects are going to smash into each other.  Whining that it's not right doesn't change the fact that it's true.
    ok wtf are you even talking about here. First of all I never said I was playing MMOs right now for one thing, which I am not. That wasn't even what I meant by play your game, is English not your first language? Secondly, I was saying that while we are trying to "reduce car accidents." You are saying that since "car accidents" happen we shouldn't even discuss it. It doesn't even make sense. Finally, I never whined. I merely am defending my and many other peoples ideas in this thread from mindless dismissals from people like you.
    The reason it happens is because it is easy. It doesn't take much work to just copy someone else. There isn't any: research, testing, creative thinking, making mistakes and learning from them, improving and growing from the experience. It is easier to just look over the shoulder of the top dog and do what they are doing. So something worked the first time, less work and its proven right? Well no, guess what it doesn't work. Recreating an original is rarely a profitable or good idea because you will be competing with the same product that is established and benefiting from experience and time advantages. Except in rare situations when the creators have truly great ideas to grow and expand what they are copying.. oh wait then its not a clone.
    If you seriously think that's how the business world works, you're horribly naive.  While sure, in a perfect world, that's what might happen, this is anything but a perfect world.  Try living in the real world, not the world you wished existed.  You won't be disappointed nearly so often.
    I didn't get a BBA, and working on my CPA to hear about how you think "business works." Who the hell are you to tell me your views of the world are reality. For one thing, I didn't even say that is not how it works, all I am saying is we should strive to surpass the failures of our past. Even if we seemed doomed to repeat the mistake. There wouldn't be anything if we just accepted what we have now is all we will ever have. Successful companies spend millions every year for people to just brain storm and test new solutions to problems. Sorry that you feel that everyone else is as sad and pitiful as you.
    I also don't remember any Harry Potter clones. Probably because they were garbage and no one talked about them.
    They didn't make as much money as Harry Potter, but they made enough that their writers wrote a whole series of books about them and some are continuing to do so.  The Percy Jackson series is up to 6 books now and still going and the movie just came out on DVD.  Just because you don't pay attention doesn't mean it's not out there.
    Thanks for proving my point


    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • AkadiosAkadios Member Posts: 43

    I see a simple repeat of arguements here and it is kinda funny.  People for it or at least not smashing the OP say well obviously the game would work differently than the current models.  To which the reply from the people who seem to enjoy flaming people while in some cases claiming to not be that type of person (snicker) say it would never work because (insert example of current game design).

     

    The point of, could it work? 

    Maybe.  It would require a new game design that didn't have people restarting at level 1 prehaps some sort of skill based combat where the only grind is gear and money. (just a thought on new design style)

     

    The point of, would it be for everyone?

    No.  Thus everyone that is flaming the OP because it wouldn't be a game they would want to play just look silly.  I hate games like WoW where there is no challenge because you can just redo everything.  Challenge turns into grind when you can rez infinite times with no loss (repair costs are not loss since its hard to not be megarich in wow).

     

    The point of, should they do it? 

    Who cares,  the OP is clearly not talking about changing your favorite game that you currently play into a permadeath game.  So what does it matter if X company decides 1 year from now to make Y game with the feature of permadeath?  If you don't want to play it than don't and for the people who would be intrigued they can.  Why argue about if it should be done when you still have other mmos to play?  That is the key to a diverse MMO market.

     

    So I guess what I am saying is good post OP and maybe someday a company will decide to open that door, or maybe they won't.  I guess we will have to wait and see.

     

     

    and sinces its coming....  http://www.flameon.net

    image

    Defiance is Recruiting: http://www.defiance-gaming.us

  • TLoZDarkLinkTLoZDarkLink Member Posts: 66

    Originally posted by Akadios

    I see a simple repeat of arguements here and it is kinda funny.  People for it or at least not smashing the OP say well obviously the game would work differently than the current models.  To which the reply from the people who seem to enjoy flaming people while in some cases claiming to not be that type of person (snicker) say it would never work because (insert example of current game design).

     

    The point of, could it work? 

    Maybe.  It would require a new game design that didn't have people restarting at level 1 prehaps some sort of skill based combat where the only grind is gear and money. (just a thought on new design style)

     

    The point of, would it be for everyone?

    No.  Thus everyone that is flaming the OP because it wouldn't be a game they would want to play just look silly.  I hate games like WoW where there is no challenge because you can just redo everything.  Challenge turns into grind when you can rez infinite times with no loss (repair costs are not loss since its hard to not be megarich in wow).

     

    The point of, should they do it? 

    Who cares,  the OP is clearly not talking about changing your favorite game that you currently play into a permadeath game.  So what does it matter if X company decides 1 year from now to make Y game with the feature of permadeath?  If you don't want to play it than don't and for the people who would be intrigued they can.  Why argue about if it should be done when you still have other mmos to play?  That is the key to a diverse MMO market.

     

    So I guess what I am saying is good post OP and maybe someday a company will decide to open that door, or maybe they won't.  I guess we will have to wait and see.

     

     

    and sinces its coming....  http://www.flameon.net

    If I was to play a game like this, I would like First Person View (Like in real life. Not the bad first person view mode with camera's enabling to look behind you which would kill you in real life if you turned your head that way.) Also if the AI wouldn't be able to spot you if they arn't even supposed to. (Hence your 5 feet away and an AI spots without turning around when your behind the stupid thing and your wondering how it spotted you behind it without breaking it's neck is just...)

    Edit: This is not only pertaining to assassins since any class can attempt to sneak up on you. Maybe not well, but still can sneak up on you.

  • crunchyblackcrunchyblack Member Posts: 1,362

    perma-death......the ultimate time sink

     

  • Silas26Silas26 Member Posts: 51

    Permadeath cannot exist for this reason : Hackers. It would eradicate bots.

    But hackers will always exist. Until you put a technology to eradicate (either by detecting hack or preventing it), do not mention permadeath.

    It could exist partially though, like an elimination pvp battle (a CTF where dead player do not resurrect until the flag has been capped).

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