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Crying a little inside (Warhammer 40k).

  Now I love the 40K IP, in my opinion it's the best scifi epic we will ever see.  I've always wanted to see a 40K MMO ( not so much a Warhammer one, and we see how well WAR turned out), and I am very excited about what I saw out of Vigil's E3 trailer.  I think I first heard about Vigil making this game about a year or so ago, and even then with no picture's or news, going on only what Vigil said on their site, I got super stoked.  Although the trailer was better than what I had wished for, I so far see multiple problem's, or error's.

  I know Vigil teamed up with GW, and did their home work, and I know they have to make the story a little dumbed down for people to understand and for it to fit in the current MMO world; but two factions?  WTH is this?

  Yes there are Orks, Chaos, Space Marines and Heretic's, (and maybe Imp Guard) so far.  But all under two factions?  Make's no sense.  From the gameplay video that means there would be 3 factions under the host's of Destruction faction and one under the Order faction, if they followed lore.  But Chaos and Ork's would never fight side by side.  They could easily be in the same location, both fighting for the same reason, but they would fight each other as well.  Now I know this game has a long way to go, but atm, all I can hope for is something new in the MMO genre.  Example:  Join the hosts of Destruction, which is just a term used by the Imperium of Man for their enemies, and even though under one banner you're still an enemy to other's under you're banner as well.  Which would make it Chaos VS Orks, like it should be.

  That's just a thought.  I know it is easier to make one faction with the multiple "races" ( using that just to explain) like Orks and Chaos, than making their own factions.  But maybe Vigil will do something clever.

  Another thing.  The tabletop of 40K is built around squad's, and grouped unit's.  There are the few solo piece's that move around as they please; but is Vigil putting the player in control of one of these Elite's or Commander's?  Or will the player be a normal Space Marine out on the field?  If the player is an Elite, like in the tabletop, I can see it.  But if you're character is just a normal Space Marine, then I can't see it.  SM's work in group's, like Ork's do but in large number's.  Yeah, Vigil could put in combat companion's or groupd based missioning, it's all to early to tell.  Just pointing it out.

  I know Vigil won't make the mistake's WAR did, and THQ is very good with the way they treat 40K ( DoW 1&2, Fire Warrior) it's all to early to tell.  I'm just talking about it.  But no matter what they do, I will play it just because of the IP and see what they plan to do with it.  I'm excited, the combat vehicles looked fun, the graphics looked decent.  The are more thing to point out just about the trailer, but I wont.  Im very interested to see what they do with SM chapter's and in-game balancing.

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Comments

  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329


    Originally posted by jjjk29
     ...
      Another thing.  The tabletop of 40K is built around squad's, and grouped unit's.  There are the few solo piece's that move around as they please; but is Vigil putting the player in control of one of these Elite's or Commander's?  Or will the player be a normal Space Marine out on the field?  If the player is an Elite, like in the tabletop, I can see it.  But if you're character is just a normal Space Marine, then I can't see it.  SM's work in group's, like Ork's do but in large number's.  Yeah, Vigil could put in combat companion's or groupd based missioning, it's all to early to tell.  Just pointing it out.
    ...

    This is the real shame right here. I thought they had a huge opportunity to create something really new and different by having players control a squad of troops instead of just one guy.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • RamaelRamael Member Posts: 91

    I can totally understand the sentiment. Grouping the races together does seem a bit artificial from time to time.

    The reason for it, from a design perspective, is often a matter of balance, and the Zerg Effect. For example, imagine if very few played the Imperial Guard, for instance. If there was ever a fight between the Imperial Guard, which had very few players, and the Orks, which had a lot of players, (say in some sort of established... to regrettably use a Mythic term, ORvR area) neither side would have a whole lot of fun. Of course, an easy fix to that (and to prevent Space Marine vs. Imperial Guard conflict, which is hard to justify short of claiming that one side fell to Chaos, as the tabletop usually says) would be to group the Imperium into one unit... But then you'd risk the Imperium single-handedly overwhelming every other race in the game through sheer weight of numbers.

    We'll have to see how it all goes. Unfortunately, we know very little about this game at this exact moment... Even the race selection beyond the trailer is up in the air. Chin up, though; just because you don't see something yet doesn't necessarily mean it's not there.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

      I'm still very excited, and I hope they can come through with something really good.

  • EnerzealEnerzeal Member Posts: 326

    I gota agree, way to make mockery of the 40k universe. Only Imperial guard, Space Marines, Sisters of battle would work together, and even then it can come to blows. Having Chaos align with anyone just doesn't make any sense at all. Also a single Space Marine doesn't run about selling things, upgrading his weapons or skilling up on monsters.

     

    It might be a good MMO, but it is surely not Warhammer 40,000.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by Enerzeal

    I gota agree, way to make mockery of the 40k universe. Only Imperial guard, Space Marines, Sisters of battle would work together, and even then it can come to blows. Having Chaos align with anyone just doesn't make any sense at all. Also a single Space Marine doesn't run about selling things, upgrading his weapons or skilling up on monsters.

     

    It might be a good MMO, but it is surely not Warhammer 40,000.

       Well the game lore is that this sector is cut off due to the warp.  So it does give some room for a way to make 40k into an MMO.  Saying that an SM may have to craft his own weapon, because there is noone there to hand it to him.  Stupid I know, but just saying since there's not much to go on.

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    If one lesson is to be learned from Warhammer Online is that only two factions does not work well in RvR as it makes the conflict stale and onesided, not to mention the big chance that it becomes imbalanced.

    Really sad to see devs not realising the misstakes done by other devs. But then again, gaming these days is about making a quick buck and not create something that lasts.

  • RamaelRamael Member Posts: 91

    In truth, Dawn of War 2's story mode kind of smacked of MMO Field Test to me (ala Warcraft 3 "Bonus Maps"). It's possible that upgrades and the like will largely work based on a mix of what your overall success has enabled you to request from the Forge Worlds, what master-crafted artifacts you've been able to pick up, and what you manage to cobble together on your own.

  • DraccanDraccan Member Posts: 1,050

     

    If this game will offer guilds consisting of Orks, Chaos Space Marines and others like Dark Eldars, Necron etc. and other guilds of Eldar, Space Marine, Tau etc. then this game will be utter FAIL. I wouldn't even beta test it for free.

    We have already seen WAR shredded to pieces by poor development by Mythic. A disgrace and disservice to a great IP. And if 40K will mirror what Mythic did with WAR then we have a (new) problem.

    I played WAR in beta and cancelled by preorder for a CE of the game. Just wasn't worth it.

    40K done right should boast multiple factions fighting against each other and the opportunity to play different roles, like Space Marine factions specializing in close combat, ranged weaponry, scouting etc. There need to be a minimum of six factions.

    Also the game need to boast new gameplay choices like being a squad leader. PvP mustn't be arenas but take place in an open world and enough with the raids and no combat healers please. Give us something fresh and new. Mechanics for your faction to take over space quadrants and fight the opposing factions. Pve should not be silly raids and sub games but take place in the open world. It is fine with some "safe areas" in early levels, but keep the game world big, open, breathing and all the players in the same space.

    Ideally they would create a cluster of servers like EVE allowing everyone to play in different parts of the same server, fighting over a huge space.

     

    Now THAT would be interesting... unfortunately I bet this will be yet another mediocre attempt at a wow clone in space.. (swtor in mind)

    D

    ____________________________
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  • AbisbowaAbisbowa Member UncommonPosts: 91

    Originally posted by jjjk29

        I know Vigil teamed up with GW, and did their home work, and I know they have to make the story a little dumbed down for people to understand and for it to fit in the current MMO world; but two factions?  WTH is this?

    Where are you getting the idea that there is going to only be two factions? I didn't think they had given specifics as to which race will be paired with who or even if they will be paired at all. I could be wrong, I may have missed an interview or write-up.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by Abisbowa

    Originally posted by jjjk29

        I know Vigil teamed up with GW, and did their home work, and I know they have to make the story a little dumbed down for people to understand and for it to fit in the current MMO world; but two factions?  WTH is this?

    Where are you getting the idea that there is going to only be two factions? I didn't think they had given specifics as to which race will be paired with who or even if they will be paired at all. I could be wrong, I may have missed an interview or write-up.

     The game's website.

  • ZoulzZoulz Member Posts: 477

    I'm am guessing you will play the role of someone significant and not just some random space marine. Space marines are definitely expendable and die all the time. Imperial guards are worth even less. :P

    I'd love to see missions where you take control of a squad of marines and lead them.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by Zoulz

    I'm am guessing you will play the role of someone significant and not just some random space marine. Space marines are definitely expendable and die all the time. Imperial guards are worth even less. :P

    I'd love to see missions where you take control of a squad of marines and lead them.

     I hope they do something like this.  Or companions.

  • AbisbowaAbisbowa Member UncommonPosts: 91

    *Reads website*

    .... Well shit :(

     

    I was kinda hoping for a Chaos vs Ork vs Space Marine thee faction system.

  • RamaelRamael Member Posts: 91

    Woah, woah, now...

    We have, in total for this game: A 1 minute trailer, a 3 paragraph write-up that's more fluff than fact, and an interview that gave about as little solid information as a politician on camera. I can understand the knee-jerk reactions, but there's probably no need at this time.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by Abisbowa

    *Reads website*

    .... Well shit :(

       Or maybe that's them asking who will you fight for "good" or "evil"?

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    image

  • jnicholajnichola Member Posts: 118

    I personally wish people would stop drawing comparrisons from WAR to Dark millennium... Two COMPLETELY different publishers and two COMPLETELY different game studios... the lone connection being Games Workshop. 

     

    I also think that if Games Workshop sees fit to let their IP lore evolve into a two faction system then more power to em... its THEIR IP !!! Personally speaking MMOs are better suited to two party systems than multiple IMO.

     

    And arent the heretics the chaos faction? Ithought the four playable faction armies were Space Marines, Imperial Guard,  Chaos and Orcs...  lumped between the destruction and order factions

     

    I admittedly havent played the tabletop since 3rd edition... but i don't remember a 'heretic' faction.

  • mutombo55mutombo55 Member Posts: 151

    Originally posted by jnichola

    I personally wish people would stop drawing comparrisons from WAR to Dark millennium...

    "Order vs Chaos".

    "We want 1 million players".

    Its like history repeating. In Space.

  • arcdevilarcdevil Member Posts: 864

    Originally posted by Joliust

     




    Originally posted by jjjk29

     ...

      Another thing.  The tabletop of 40K is built around squad's, and grouped unit's.  There are the few solo piece's that move around as they please; but is Vigil putting the player in control of one of these Elite's or Commander's?  Or will the player be a normal Space Marine out on the field?  If the player is an Elite, like in the tabletop, I can see it.  But if you're character is just a normal Space Marine, then I can't see it.  SM's work in group's, like Ork's do but in large number's.  Yeah, Vigil could put in combat companion's or groupd based missioning, it's all to early to tell.  Just pointing it out.

    ...




     

    This is the real shame right here. I thought they had a huge opportunity to create something really new and different by having players control a squad of troops instead of just one guy.

    yeah, I bet they would totally own the MMORPG market with a monthly sub game that is basically DoW2

  • cheshyrecatcheshyrecat Member Posts: 137

    Originally posted by arcdevil

    yeah, I bet they would totally own the MMORPG market with a monthly sub game that is basically DoW2

     

    Actually I'd be pretty happy if they did a bit of that.

    In my mind the last thing I want to see is a "war" with 15 ppl on each side.  I know I'll likely never see an open world *WAR with a hundred ppl on each side with war trikes, Rhino, and titans.  I'm not gonna hold my breath.

      However, if each player had his own "squad" of NPCs it would go a LONG way into boosting that *WAR feeling.

     

     

    * - and by WAR i'm not referring to the Mythic flop but to the feel of a large scale conflict.

    We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918

    Originally posted by jjjk29

      Now I love the 40K IP, in my opinion it's the best scifi epic we will ever see.  I've always wanted to see a 40K MMO ( not so much a Warhammer one, and we see how well WAR turned out), and I am very excited about what I saw out of Vigil's E3 trailer.  I think I first heard about Vigil making this game about a year or so ago, and even then with no picture's or news, going on only what Vigil said on their site, I got super stoked.  Although the trailer was better than what I had wished for, I so far see multiple problem's, or error's.

      I know Vigil teamed up with GW, and did their home work, and I know they have to make the story a little dumbed down for people to understand and for it to fit in the current MMO world; but two factions?  WTH is this?

      Yes there are Orks, Chaos, Space Marines and Heretic's, (and maybe Imp Guard) so far.  But all under two factions?  Make's no sense.  From the gameplay video that means there would be 3 factions under the host's of Destruction faction and one under the Order faction, if they followed lore.  But Chaos and Ork's would never fight side by side.  They could easily be in the same location, both fighting for the same reason, but they would fight each other as well.  Now I know this game has a long way to go, but atm, all I can hope for is something new in the MMO genre.  Example:  Join the hosts of Destruction, which is just a term used by the Imperium of Man for their enemies, and even though under one banner you're still an enemy to other's under you're banner as well.  Which would make it Chaos VS Orks, like it should be.

      That's just a thought.  I know it is easier to make one faction with the multiple "races" ( using that just to explain) like Orks and Chaos, than making their own factions.  But maybe Vigil will do something clever.

      Another thing.  The tabletop of 40K is built around squad's, and grouped unit's.  There are the few solo piece's that move around as they please; but is Vigil putting the player in control of one of these Elite's or Commander's?  Or will the player be a normal Space Marine out on the field?  If the player is an Elite, like in the tabletop, I can see it.  But if you're character is just a normal Space Marine, then I can't see it.  SM's work in group's, like Ork's do but in large number's.  Yeah, Vigil could put in combat companion's or groupd based missioning, it's all to early to tell.  Just pointing it out.

      I know Vigil won't make the mistake's WAR did, and THQ is very good with the way they treat 40K ( DoW 1&2, Fire Warrior) it's all to early to tell.  I'm just talking about it.  But no matter what they do, I will play it just because of the IP and see what they plan to do with it.  I'm excited, the combat vehicles looked fun, the graphics looked decent.  The are more thing to point out just about the trailer, but I wont.  Im very interested to see what they do with SM chapter's and in-game balancing.

     

    I've had these same concerns...It's not unheard of for factions to ally themselves within the 40k universe, but when you ahve something like chaos and orks, it's more often than not a manipulation by Chaos...if that's how the story presents itself, then I'm okay with it.

     

    As for the squads thing...Space Marines are elite enough on their own I think, to justify having one player use one space marine without a squad...For Imperial Guard though, what I would like to see is a number of "pet classes" where the player is in control of a commisar, and there are a number of guardsman around him, which would increase or decrease depending on things like level and specialization.

     

    The same would have to hold true for orks as well I suppose, since they are of the horde mentality too.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DinendaeDinendae Member Posts: 1,264

    Originally posted by Ramael

    The reason for it, from a design perspective, is often a matter of balance, and the Zerg Effect. For example, imagine if very few played the Imperial Guard, for instance. If there was ever a fight between the Imperial Guard, which had very few players, and the Orks, which had a lot of players, (say in some sort of established... to regrettably use a Mythic term, ORvR area) neither side would have a whole lot of fun. Of course, an easy fix to that (and to prevent Space Marine vs. Imperial Guard conflict, which is hard to justify short of claiming that one side fell to Chaos, as the tabletop usually says) would be to group the Imperium into one unit... But then you'd risk the Imperium single-handedly overwhelming every other race in the game through sheer weight of numbers.

     Actually, that (grouping them together) is not the solution; as DAoC proved many years ago, when you have more than two factions you will see alliances form between the weaker sides to help balance things out. Unfortunately no other game developer seems to have picked up on that, and Mythic apparently forgot it when they made WAR;  just lumping everyone into one of two camps does a great disservice to the IP, as WAR proved.

    "Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Member Posts: 1,384

    Originally posted by Enerzeal

    I gota agree, way to make mockery of the 40k universe. Only Imperial guard, Space Marines, Sisters of battle would work together, and even then it can come to blows. Having Chaos align with anyone just doesn't make any sense at all.

     

     

    what are you on? 40k races ally all teh time, for a variety of reasons, a shaky alliance is still an alliance.

     

    Hell, they did it in winter assault.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • CrosiusCrosius Member Posts: 129

    I've said it time and time again. The gameplay should be almost exactly like shattered galaxy using the W40k IP. It would fit PERFECTLY into the style of play. The fact that they went down the usual, lame, fps bullshit is seriously disappointing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cX8OrTLgZ4&feature=related

    For those of you who are unfamiliar with the game, look it up. It's dead now unfortunately but...

  • EchelonsEchelons Member Posts: 80

    Seems like a lot of the posters understand a lot about the tabletop game Warhammer 40k and not much about how an MMO and it's players function.

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