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E3 Resumee: Gaming is leaving me behind
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
You know, yesterday I went to my local gaming store, since I was kinda bored and wanted to spent some money on entertainment. The result: I went back home with nothing, even though I lurked the shelves for an hour or so. It is something that happens to me ever more often in the last years.
I started to be a gamer when Commodore 64 was new, and for about 25 years or so I was a vivid gamer. I love games, I love to follow news, to talk and try stuff. But as the years pass, what is published is less and less interesting for me. It's not that I am burned out; because every time one of those rare pearls is published, I am always playing happily as once. Only it happens less and less. Granted, in the 80ies and 90ies there were considerably less games per year. But overall, not only what type of games are published has changed, but also the games itself.
Much to my dismay, two genres I loved a lot, have entirely vanished from the market. Turn-Based strategy and first person RPGs.
Games like Civilization II, Sims 1 & 2, Sim City 2000, Fantasy General, X-Com, Jagged Alliance, Master of Orion, Alpha Centauri were games I spent YEARS playing. Especially in the case of Sims 2, I guess I rarely invested so much time (and money) into a game as into Sims 2... and then. We got Sims 3. Sure, it looked more fancy. But what a terrible simplification. What a terrible step back. And so it went with most of my beloved sim & strategy games. They either died out, or were followed by new versions I found totally boring. I know some folks want the hyper hyper of real-time. But I just don't believe those who loved the strategical depth of turn based just suddenly vanished from the face of the earth! Games like Jagged Alliance or the old X-Com just allowed a depth and wonderful strategies you just can't do with real time! Why did this entirely vanish?
And why did those first person RPGs die out? Man, I really LOVED Wizardry, Might and Magic (the RPG!) and the like, where you had a party but you played in first person. Can anyone remember how damn many classes a game like Wizardry had? All those classes and races, and not just 4 or 5 classes like many RPGs today. Why do we just get 4 or 5 different classes and races these days? It's all so damn simplified and cut, I always feel like in the proverbial bed of Procrustes. Once in Wizardry we had about 30 different classes and over a dozen of races to pick from! Today, the heirs of Diablo offer us 3 or 4 premade characters and take it or leave it. I don't want to bash SWTOR: but 4 classes per faction? Heck, when did all that change?
My most beloved game EVER surely will for all days of my life remain Ultima VII. The sheer complexity and depth of this game is something I haven't seen before and not ever since. The long dialogue lines, where now the voiceovers are usually not even 10% of the conversation we once had beckons the question if voiceover really is a benefit. Also from a creative point of view, since once dialogue vioceovers are recorded, it is difficult and expensive to re-write the lines, when you want to change some parts of the story. And of course it makes the dialogue shorter and less complex. Look at how chatty NPCs were still in Baldurs Gate and how less NPCs have to say today.
And SIZE... don't even get me started with size! I really defy to pay 40-50 Euro for a game which lasts barely 8 hours! Not only because I feel robbed... but because I don't feel like it. Where did the time go when games like Daggerfall or Baldurs Gate kept me playing for MONTHS? Those games weren't finished like a snack in a half weekend! It is a matter of a good story which can't be told in a few hours. I want a huge world to sink my teeth into for months and months, to discover every nook and edge, to follow the long labyrinthine turns and twists of sideplots, to see dozens of cities, forests and whatnot. I don't want to run through some short quest-tunnel like in the nefarious Dungeon Siege model, where all the time left and right are barriers I cannot cross.
And one thing I have to say is: why the devil is every second game today a modern military game? I mean, ok a lot of games involve killing, I don't mind that. But this sort of modern day warfare is just a tad too much real life world for me. I use games as a means of escapism, to dive into fantastic worlds, even if they are in darkest conflicts. But why did these "fukked up soldiers/mercenaries" type of game pop up like mushrooms in every place? I really wonder what that is saying about our days? I mean, ok, each to his. But what I see is: once modern warfare games where a TINY niche for some super-nerds. You know, those nerds among nerds, who played macho warrior in their dark rooms. I mean hey, each to his. But when today I go to any generic game website, 2/3rd of them are littered with soldiers or other modern war referrences. It's kinda depressing. Isn't there enough war in real life and news already, that we even have to PLAY war and solider? It's something that is just alien to me, as is this entire run-hide-snipe hyper hyper mentality of games where only gritty, dark modern reality is present. Where did all the dreams go? Where did wonderful stories and worlds like from "Lands of Lore" go? Sometimes, when I watch the new games presented at the E3 and in my stores, it's as if I was in coma 20 years and suddenly I awake to a game scene, which just by and large isn't mine anymore.
Games changed. They left me behind, and there are only very few games every year which sort of interest me still. I am profoundly convinced games lost a LOT when they started to move towards a mass market thing, trying to please way too many different people, ending up being only the smallest common ground and simplified to small fast food snacks.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
It changed because Devs are having to code more. The games of today arnt like coding games 10 years ago. So developers have to cut time somewhere so they butchered the class system to just Tank Healer DPS(melee and range). Now this is just my opinion on the matter. It could be that they just dont want to balance 12-30 classes anymore.
edit: but Star Wars doesnt really have to many classes. I would say SW would only need 2 Jedi/Sith classes, Officer both republic and sith, Smuggler, Bounty hunter, and Republic/sith troopers. So i have about 10 classes for SWOTR. I would just make up for that with Actual useful and differant skill trees ones where u actually pick a path and they are useful for each path and not just cherry picking which skills are good because there are just pointless skills on the tree.
What worries me more is that some industry insiders are claiming Farmville is the Gaming future
Perhaps I should become a gaming equivilent of the Amish.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Yes. I assume there are "good reasons" behind all that. I don't know heck about coding. But I know that games got less and less of EVERYTHING with every passing year. I mean, how can it be that games today cost a multitude of what they cost once, but the result is a shrinking percentage of the complexity and fun it once was? How can THAT be reasonable? *shrug*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I haven't been gaming quite as long as you, but I'm getting to the 10 year mark. I think one of the biggest things that affect game quality and variety nowadays is the way the market has evolved. A LOT more people are gaming nowadays than say 15-20 years ago. Consoles are pretty much a must have for every teeny-bopper, and they seem to have a huge sway over the market. I think because of this, more and more companies have shifted their focus on them as their primary target audience and are intent on pumping out game after game to satisfy (what they percieve to be mostly teenagers) the main demographic.
The issue I have seen from this is most of today's gamer teens want instant gratification in just about every aspect of a game. No patience for long, complex stories, or long and complex character advancement. They wanna know who killed who and why their character has the powers he has right away. On top of that, they want their character to be as badass as they can be in each game A.S.A.P.
I also think because of the way visual media (ie. movies, games ) as a form of entertainment has evolved to being more about slam-bam action with high stylization and over-the-top visuals, a lot of them dont care for deep and well crafted story lines, but rather want to see how well someone's face can stop shotgun bullets / magical powers in the game.
Lastly, because most kids/teens are usually hitting up mommy and daddy to pay for their games, and once again they make up a large percentage of the market, the developers know that they can instead make shorter games, tack on a bunch of DLC to make money off of, and instead turn what used to be one game, into a trilogy so you get to pay three times as much. And the problem is, they know they can do it because most parents will spend the money on it for their kids, because it just ties into money they were planning on spending on their kids that week/month anyway. Most adults however can't just as easily justify spending the money on such a constant stream of video games for themselves. Even if the teens are paying for the games themselves, it's easy to piss away all your cash earned from burger flipping on video games when you don't pay rent, car payments, phone bills, etc.
Anyhow, my 2 cents.
Pretty much nailed it right on the head. Sadly gaming is just another way for companies to profit, and profit is what runs the world. If you can charge someone 3x as much for 1/2 the work that you would of had to, why not right? Who does it hurt? Sadly I think us older 10-15+ gamers are a dying breed. I am in the same boat as you are most of the time with trying to find a game that is interesting enough to play. I too miss the days of a game taking me months to beat, not a few days. Even MMO's anymore are getting to be too damn short. I guess it is just what the future holds...
When I hear C64, I think Little Computer People.... I miss Wallace... And Martin...
First, computers are MUCH more widespread now. I still remember being the only kid in the neighborhood who didn't have just one but had several computers growing up. Computers are a lot more common now. With that, computers became a much more viable form of entertainment. As well, the internet has become much more available and much easier. When I was a kid all I had was a cartridge modem for my C64; 300 baud.
And this leads to; gaming has gone mainstream. It's like how people think it's "cool" to be nerd nowadays. Since it has gone mainstream it's began to conform to the bulk of the mentality of those who play anymore... Not to get overly philsophical about it, but a lot of gamers tend to have that materialistic mentality of gimme gimme gimme and now now now. As a result things have changed in gaming. And it's not just computer games, table top games have gotten the hit too.
I've begun to think that the SCA is the only thing society won't bring into the mainstream, it's still considered a bad thing with folks.
Loved games like Civilization and Alpha Centauri. Not sure why they got away from those. But first person RPGs? Yeck! I never could stand those. I prefered the top down view or 3rd person. Besides, I think MMORPGs are the successor to single player RPGs, since single player ones aren't as numerous as they were in those days. Which is fine, I prefer MMORPGs anyway.
I still want more games like Alpha Centauri though. That game was awesome.
I can complete relate to that first paragraph and, for the most part, agree with most everything in between. I started around the time of Might and Magic and would have to say that is one of the games that really got me hooked on gaming. There was a time that I was anxious to get the new game that was coming out and couldn't wait to start playing. Now, in most cases, I see games coming out and think to myself: "my brother-in-law is probably going to get that. I'll wait until he gets bored with it then borrow it." My brother-in-law is about 20 years younger then me :P. Point is, there just isn't that much that I see as compelling that is being released.
Your point about the marketing/fast food also holds merit. To illustrate the marketing point, I'll go back to Might and Magic, I don't ever recall seeing an "expansion" for it. Now, it seems expansions and DLC content are announced before games are even released. Sure, Might and Magic had it's share of sequels, but that is still prevalent in today's games. As far as the "fast food" point, I would point to games generally seeming easier, and quicker, to complete. There are countless games that I played when I was younger, that I never "completed", but now, I can finish a lot of games in a week or so of very casual (i.e. father of two who only gets to play after everyone is in bed) play.
Your point about the modern military games made me laugh. Not so much about the realism aspect, but just the sheer quantity of titles. Related to that, I would point out the "rock band" type games as another example of saturating the market with an idea.
Now, old the old man, "get off my lawn" stuff out of the way; there are still exceptional (purely as a matter of opinion of course) games that have come out or are being developed. They are just fewer and further between. Maybe it's time to dust off my Might and Magic 6 CDs that I still have sitting around. Wonder if it would even install/run anymore :P
edit; was actually Might and Magic 6 cd's
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Hehe, I remember your avatar from Alpha Centauri.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Coming to this conclusion and doing something else instead, just might be the best thing that ever happens to you.
I know exactly what the OP is talking about, although I started a bit before him by the sounds of it. I was programming my cousins ZX-81 and the first computer I had was the rubber-keyed ZX Spectrum. Commodore 64 was just an awesome machine at the time, the sound chip just blew me away, and it was surprisingly easy to program machine code on there too.
I miss those old games, like Jagged Alliance and X-Com, and what about that absolute classic 'Laser Squad' or 'Eye of the Beholder'? Nothing like that is made anymore, instead we're getting games for the MTV generation who all seem to have ADD, needing it all now and as quick as possible.
Games are so short now, I remember finishing Modern Warfare 2 on the same day I bought it. There are some with a longer life span like GTA IV or Crysis, but overall it's all wham-bam-thank you mam. Unlike the OP, however, I have stuck with PnP gaming and have found an interest in the stealth games because of it. Nothing like a bit of Hitman to make you feel like a badass assassin.
MMO's are of course suffering from the same thing, with everything being console in style, which I consider all these quest-chain MMO's to be. It's all about rushing through the content and not really pausing to have a look around at where you are and why you're even there.
I think our only hope is that developers stop for five minutes and look at what made games successful in the first place, otherwise they're just going to keep churning out the same trash year-in year-out. Something which I'm not looking forward to.
The OP is from the age when players wanted to be tested, to face challenges, and feel they earned what they have. Doing that was considered fun.
Nowadays the idea is just to have, not to do. If they made a game where when you logged on you already were max level and had everything in the game, I promise you people would buy it. That's why item malls are all the rage. Why have an adventure when you can just buy stuff?
I wish I could tell you that we are trending away from the era of ez-mode, but we're not.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"Here." Is this the old fellas thread? hahahahahaha I feel the same way as the OP. Started gaming with Civ and Alpha Cent as well. For me, what it comes down to is I have less time for entertainment now with work, faith, wife, children, friends, fitness, house, truck, harley etc. Where does a 3 hour raid even fit in? Hey the days of sitting down with a bag of fritoes and a 6 pack of dew to start up a Troll Shadownknight in the swamps for an allnighter were fun. Part of me wishes for the simplicity of it all, but thats too much time spent on entertainment just for me. Dont get me wrong, I would love it but would hate myself in the morning. Us older gamers, imo, just have to move on and thank the developers for making games for us to play that allow us to escape for a while but enable us to spend our time on what is most important to us. In my case I loved warhammer online because I could enjoy it with an hour at a time here and there. (Lack of population and constant pvp ended it for me.) Im hoping APB or Global Agenda will incoporate more MMORPG elements to their already working jump in jump out gameplay (played both of their demos and had short bursts of fun.)
Thats my story and Im sticking to it. To each his own.
I also started with the c64, and games like asteroids.
Yea, there has ben a process of "streamlining", that has a good side, packing more cool stuff in less space, but has a bad side, remove things.
I hope the people change again, and we retain the "pack cool stuff" with the things we use to have in games.
Is also true that is harder to make a game nowdays, since more detailed graphics mean more time the artist working.
Also since the budgets are bigger, theres less risk-taking. Not taking any risk is another risk, but thats life.
Not everything is gloom and doom, we have the indie people, and emergent countrys like Russia and Brasil, these people will continue making games like we use to love...
Good games.
In some ways all of this does boil down to us being "old men" and yelling to kids to get out of our bean garden while brandishing a shotgun. In our boxer shorts.
The issue I constantly see with many posters on this site is that it seems they are not sensitive to the idea of passing trends and that passing trends have been going on long before we knew what a passing trend was.
None of the posters on this site ever mention the passing of the daguerreotype, Parody Masses, Silent films, or milk men.
Things come and go and they always have done this.
Do we think that everybody and their mother was excited when the first rock song hit the radio airwaves. As if everyone suddenly realized that everything prior was a complete waste and now we could finally move on with our lives?
Of course not. Many in the older generation decried the downfall of society and many younger people had to reevaluate what it was and where this was going to take them.
Same with games. Things move on. And according to history things will come around again. This has always been the case. They might not come around in the exact same way but they will come around in a way that resonates with the current generation.
As far as Elikal's post, we still have galactic civilizations which is a descendant of the Masters of Orion series.
We are getting Civilization 5 as well ( I think that's the number?).
But things go in phases and and will eventualy come around. We as people need to recognize that things pass and that life is cyclical. And it's part of being human to move on and seek "new".
As songs go this is an old song which has been played long before any of us were born and will be played long after we are all gone.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sovrath do you write for a living, I rarely if ever see you taking an objective opinion regardless of what side of the fence you seem to fall on and again I commend you for that as when reading the boards it gives me something to strive for.
I've thought the same thing on a much smaller scale because I've always recognized this. As an example the new fad in "motion control" gaming (not sure what they call it, totally isn't for me but exactly who am I to take my daughter or sons right to be as enamored over something they enjoy as I was? It's usually what I see when things like this happen. In another example the entire F2P vs P2P argument while I prefer either purely P2P with no cash shops or F2P with them a small part of me is glad to see people who love the games we play enough to spend money on them finally able to endulge in some of the activities that were only available to you if you had ten hours a day to play for the next six months. It's why unless I feel we as a community are being fleeced I'm not too quick to jump up and decry something.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Already some good answers here but I feel one of the biggest reasons games have changed, for what we old gamers see as for the worst, is the rise of the console industry. Microsoft and Sony have pretty much hired the big gaming studios for themselves and even if these companies also release their game for the PC they now have to add twice to three times the development time to port games for two to three formats. And sadly since these games need to be simplified to perform on consoles they do not push the computer envelope like games used to. So want to know why you don't enjoy games like you used to, or even why games aren't as good as they used to be? Blame the money hungry monsters Sony and Microsoft. They have and will continue to spend their vast fortunes to pervert gaming to suit their own vision of the future. No matter how much it stifles creativity and innovation in the long run.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
It's human nature for to long for something that a person found appealing once it has passed or try to hold on tightly as it is passing. Otherwise, In its absence, to seek out something similar. That said, I certainly wouldn't begrudge my younger brother-in-law his choice in gaming. He is part of the current target demographic and the games are predominantly made for he and his friends.
I think a lot of my personal view comes down to rose-colored nostalgia glasses mixed with my perception of value. Using FPS games as an example, I played Unreal for a good amount of time. I bought the game and, if new maps came out, I could download them, or not. I could run my own server, or use someone elses, etc, etc. Now, those options are missing from many games and they don't seem to retain the same value I saw in the older titles. On the other hand, my brother-in-law thinks nothing of buying a "map pack" for the game he is playing and it is a neat addition to the game for him.
I suppose you could apply that same sort of scenario to Neverwinter Nights versus Dragon Age: Origins. I found both to be fun to play, but I believe NWN was a better value whereas I see DA:O as a bit of nickle-and-dime. Again, my brother-in-law thinks the DLC and expansion for DA:O are nice add-ons that he can spend a few bucks on. Neither of us is really right in the matter of taste, but it goes a ways toward explaining our different views on the state of today's games....which are making more money then ever...so I suppose that shows how much my opinion is worth :P
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Gaming has been turned into an industry. Before it was "industrialized", a development team would consist of only a few employees, often times one-man shows. Take a look at any major title now and you'll see that there are hundreds of employees working on a single game.
As gaming became increasingly profitable, giant corporations began buying up small gaming companies (you still see this going on all over the place). Once this occurs, the primary goal of a satellite gaming company is to pump out titles asap and spend millions in marketing.
I've noticed that a lot of people on these forums and other gaming forums blame the decline of creativity in games on the player base - that the players want "easy-mode" gaming; that they want the highest reward from the least amount of effort. The unfortunate truth is that the players themselves don't know what they want - marketing teams tell them what they want.
This is an old story. It has been going on for decades. What becomes popular is bought up by large corporations and is force fed down peoples throats. Creativity is sapped out of the original process and the a cash-cow is created.
This is no revelation, anyone who has given this any thought has already come to the same conclusions. I see no way out of this other than to support indy companies and hope that one or two decent titles are produced every once in a while
.
20 years ago (April 18th 1990 – I have the receipt), I purchased a highly anticipated (to me) title. Phantasy Star II. I just downloaded it from XBLA this week. It’s hard to go back. Nostalgia being what it is means it’s not quite like it was. Yet, it still has something to it. I spent hundreds of hours back then.
Games were on to something. So many fantastic journeys like my own storybook or choose your own adventure. I played King’s Quest, Wizardry, Ultima, the greats. How I long for a reboot of the single player Phantasy Star, Wizardry and others. Pay tribute to it. Don’t create a so-called “innovative” update to the series. A new story and new characters built on the original game principles. FFXIII became depressing to play, so many mini chapters pushing me along a rail, and little customization to make it my story. I was playing Square’s story. Let’s face it today’s game stories on their own are rarely compelling.
One very powerful component of the games today is - they sell. They sell more than any game we played back then combined. Look at games like Modern Warfare 2. Was it a bad game, no it was pretty enjoyable. It’s very Bruckheimer’ish, graphically good looking, and has some cool war type scenarios.
Was it Phantasy Star, Might and Magic or Ultima? Not even close. I know it’s not even a similar genre. The point is companies are looking for funding.
I think we will have to stop looking at companies for the next great game, and look to individuals. People like Richard Garriott was, perhaps take a look at what Dean Dodrill is doing with Dust: An Elysian Tale. This is a person with a vision not a board of stakeholders.
I have to disagree.I first started gaming when I put my coin into a space Invader machine that appeared outisde a local strip mall in ym neighbourhood when I was a kid and have bene doing it since.I sitll love gaming and tihnk there are plenty of terrifci games being produced now just as I know there were terrible games produced back in my childhood too,it's just we don't tend to remember those and only remember our good experiences.
I'll grant you there are less of those Holy Crap moments fromt he past when you experience something new or special for the first time,but that's a product of age and experience as well as the industry leaving it's infancy when all things were new.I very rarely experience that sense of awe I felt when first playing Pools of Radiance,Wizardy,Terra Nova,System Shock 1/2 ,Doom or Half Life now.But I still enjoy modenr games very much.
Yes there are some trends I havne't liked or genres I no longer like(for me it's RTS games) but again that's age and experience.I know there are many new and younger gamers who play games that I do that are experiencing that sense of awe and wonder from gmaes that I merely enjoy and I am not bitter about that I'm happy for them.
I am enjoying this thread seems like a lot of folks I can relate to.
As an FYI, my milk is still delivered to my front door every Wednesday...
You want see a really horrifyingly simplified genre? Try adventure games.
Really, it seems the developers can't think of even one single interesting, fun and challenging puzzle anymore. I still play them for the stories and characters, and some of them do have beautiful atmosphere, but in terms of gameplay mechanics it's all bleh.
I also find myself missing the old single player RPGs sometimes (though I did like both Dragon Age and ME2).
And it seems more and more like we've run out of good space combat sims. The last great space game I played was X3 (a brilliant game, in my opinion - it'd make a solid MMO conversion, devs!)
Though thankfully there are several game genres I still have fun with, so I never run out of games to play:
Racing games, in my opinion getting better and better. Sports games, likewise. Though admittedly I'm the ultimate casual in both genres.
Speaking of casual: Casual gaming has gotten quite good. So have puzzle games. A lot of solid entries there.
I hate the new tactical FPS games, especially the ones where you're part of the military. But there are still a lot of good old school ones out there. I did like Metro 2033, for instance.
Hey, I think MMOs are getting better! Yeah, sue me! I have no love for the first gen of the genre. And I think we still haven't had an absolutely great game in the genre. If EVE was more like X3, where you really, actually steered your ship, that would be one. I have hopes for Rift and Guild Wars 2 with their vision of dynamic content.
Interesting viewpoint. In a way the movie industry started this way too and became a big Corporate machine. So since the game industry is looking similar, we can expect about 75% of games to be more about quantity and less about quality and only about 25%, and that is generous, are truly works of art and quality.
And just like the movie industry, the bar is always set by the quality works instead of the rushed, ultra marketed junk that permeates everything these days. .../sigh Ah well, time to get Oscars type gaming ceremonies and Developer Guilds, hehe and tons of critics across the world giving thumbs up or down.
I have no problems paying $50.00 for a pc game that has a ton of replayability though I agree that if it is only 8 hours of gameplay with hardly any replayability at all then they best lower that price or it is no sale for them. Also, the problem with mmo gaming now is that developers cater to the masses which means everyting gets simplified so even a 5 year old can understand how to play, money>quality these days. We need more mmos that do not cater to the masses that go above and beyond what we have today. The worst thing that ever happened ot the mmo genre is when devs started catering to the masses and going mainstream.