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Why Mourning Mods and Devs find this hard
It seems at least a few of the Mods and Devs of Mourning have been here and some have been un-wise enought to attempt to surpress the discussion being had here. The people who 6 weeks ago were being labled trolls and flamers are now looking more and more like prophets every day.
The point is this.
The reason 90% of what has been posted by the "visitors" from Mourning doesnt last and is deleted or picked apart very quickly here is that they do not seem used to the art of having to construct valid arguments that stand scrutiny.
After months of deleting everything they found "rude" on their boards they now have very few skills to participate in, or construct arguments that will be validated by any weight of evidence on these boards.
You see the people who post on MMO are courageous in their own way. We know that unless you post something REALLY offensive here, then your post wont be deleted and you will have to live with what you typed and support and defend it to the other thinking minds.
I applaud the Mods of these boards and I applaud the regular posters here. 99% of what we write is our genuine thoughts and feelings. We write them after much research and thought, (Arcarius, Bitey, Grunch) are examples of people who post controversial but largely incontravertable stuff. You may not agree with, or like what they, or I or anyone else posts, but you can bet they put a lot of effort into it and that unless you research just as hard you wont be able to contradict it.
On these boards we take our reputations relatively seriously and know we are going to have to live with the things we type.
I actually think you encourage your community to really start typing trash when you start deleting every second post. I mean who cares what you type if you know its gonna be gone in 5 minutes. Consequently people try to get their BIG message accross in loud and ugly ways, like using bad language in the subject lines etc.
The Mourning forums are full of that now (although the last 24 hours seems to have been some improvement). Angry people trying to vent in the very format they should be allowed to vent in are being made even more "venty" by denying them the opportunity. So they come here and the result is that MMO ends up being a dumping ground of the negative posts about Mourning.
It makes it seem like everyone from MMO is just here to talk negatively about the game. When really its just a self generated phenomena of the official board management.
The results of the current state of discusion about this topic are those created by the desicions made by the people runing the Mourning community itself. No one else created this situation. Mourning people, If you want to see where the problem is then look in the mirror.
As a manager I have to take responsibility in my workplace when something I was supposed to be managing goes pear shaped. Whether I feel its my fault or not, Its part of the job as a manager to step up and accept responsibility when stuff happens on your watch. Any and every action that tries to do something other than that is called "making excuses"
Well all I can say about the frustration of the Mourning managers at these boards are :
"You reap what you sow"
<small footnote> I dont intend this to be provocative to the Mourning Mods, just my opinion of how things got this bad. Also Spoon and Natty. You came here under your own identities and posted logic, you also are not being aimed at here.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Comments
Well said.
Arc and I were talking about this the other day... it's hard to feel sorry for the Mourning development team when you consider that there have been so many missed opportunities to turn things around. Simple opportunities, common sense. Instead they continue to carry themselves so counterproductively... it's hard not to wince when you read another post from tiamat and co. who still haven't learned a thing after all this time.
It's gotten much worse than I think any of us could have even predicted back when it started. The general consensus was that it was a promising game run by a development staff with very poor PR skills... that turned into a moderately unstable game with a communistic dev team... and now here we are months later with absolutely no new information on game content, mediocre screenshots and videos released, in-fighting between publisher and development team, mass pre-order cancellations, scam suspicions, confirmation that a hell of a lot of core features didn't make it in, and a beta that was supposed to be released in... what was it now, early February?
It just keeps getting worse. The Mourning team had better hope they have a decent game on their hands, because nothing less is going to cut it. If they weren't so anti-social, perhaps we'd all be on their side nursing the game to health, recruiting potential players, etc. - I'd be prepping my guild for its foray into the game right now. But, you said it - they reap what they sow.
Well I was in a pretty mellow mood when I posted that because even I am starting to feel a bit sorry for them. Then I headed over to see whats happend in the past few days that I might have missed. I guess I was asleep last time I looked because I have discovered another major inconsistency of information that I cant beleive has been allowed to happen.
Correct me if Im wrong but werent we sitting here in the days around Feb 18th hearing stories about corupted email lists holding up the beta ? So how does this fit in ?
Quote from This post http://www.realmsoftorment.net/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=18318 by Egomancer
"So far LHE funded the game with around 95% of the money and the rest of 5% has been funded by me during time. Basically LHE can do whatever they want with the game, the code and everything. You must be aware of the fact the LHE is not a common publisher since they do not have any facilities to get the game in stores. In fact there are small chances that during the next 3 months to have the game on the shelves" (egomancer)
(remember the original release date was march and only a week or so ago we were told it would slip a few days due to the beta moving back, now its maybe the next 3 months, I mean WTFH ???)
"The last component, meaning the game is in a good state. It does not have all the features we wanted to put in but it certainly is in a playable state. Each day we are closer to completion and we will launch the game as soon as it has no 'show-stoppers' meaning bugs that prevent you playing. The client is completed, we sent the CD to US and from one moment to another LHE will start printing the CDs." (egomancer)
These 2 paragraphs written on the 19/3/2005 would strongly suggest that on the 18/3/2005 the game was no where near being ready for open (pay to play) beta. If it was why is there still talk of ironing out show stopping bugs before release ?
This is on the back of the excuse that emerged a week or so after the beta had slipped from Feb18 which was "monster/NPC pathing".
So we go from a corupted email list with a beta client just waiting to be played. To pathing problems, to show stopping bugs. Is this game in development or deconstruction because those elements would make perfect sense in the reverse order but sound like utter BS in the order they happened in.
I honestly dont know what to think anymore.....
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Nice post Razor. The reason I am posting these stories is that 1) I feel it is totally wrong to censor the boards the way mourning does. Not only that but they seem to like banning and treating people badly(they have 3 board dedicated to just bans, "jackasses", trash). The unprofessional feel of RP is also very sad. It is something that should not be encouraged in the gaming industry. 2) I feel that mourning admins competely underestimate and discredit mmorpg.com. Like you said, I bet 90 percent of there traffic is from this site, yet they call mmorpg.com "sleeps in bed with IGN" and "children". They also flame paratropper. 3) It is wrong of them to threaten people on this board. Egomancer has no right to ask mmorpg.com for bugmans info. So it was misinformation, you cannot sue or threaten for this.
And yes it is obivious that they post lots of misinformation regarding dates. They wonder why people think it is vaporware, but posting comments like "You must be aware of the fact the LHE is not a common publisher since they do not have any facilities to get the game in stores. In fact there are small chances that during the next 3 months to have the game on the shelves" (egomancer)" is almost proof.
Last of all, I would like to thank mmorpg.com for a great job moderating these boards. It is one of the only places where we can talk like human beings and post issues.
I think what he's trying to get across is that the game won't be sitting at EBGames or Best Buy. The plans are to sell boxes purchased directly from the publisher. That doesn't mean the game won't go live in 3 months.
Anyways, its not tiamat that keeps coming on here and posting. Somebody's just trying to cause some more drama. He never goes by tiamat on any other boards except for the RoT boards. He's registered as something else on MP.com, which is the same as all his IRC nicks and other various screen names.
The devs aren't exactly worried about PR because they want the game to speak for itself. They have a very supportive publisher that has put up a good deal of money so they don't exactly have to worry if a bunch of ppl claiming that they won't pre-order. They just want to get the game done, but a lot of people seem to want to create drama. If you want the bash the game, then thats fine. If you have a problem with tiamat, just go over to the forums and tell him that you don't like how he's handling things. Just make sure to post it in the right forum and ease off on all the bad language. Their policy is to keep the boards clean of bad language, so that is why most posts get moved or people get banned. Its not the message that they are banning, its the way that people tend to go about expressing it. Swearing will get your thread almost immediately deleted and yourself closer to a ban.
I'm not here as a fanboi. I've trashtalked the publisher on other forums, but it didn't get me anywhere. I had some issues with the publisher and was getting upset, so I told tiamat about them and we discussed them. I ended up chatting with him about the state of the game and his vision for over an hour. It was the most amazing open and direct communication I've ever had with a dev. This summer when I'm on tour with a US Army unit over in Kosovo; I'm going to stop by the Mourning dev studio for a bit. I'm starting to get a visit arranged all because I sat down and talked to tiamat rather than trying to complain about it on some other set of forums. The guy just wants you to be honest with him and up front.
Its a lot better for everyone that if you have a problem with them to tell them and figure out where things went wrong. Trust me, tiamat is a very open person that spends a lot of time talking with the game community. It doesn't help when people swear up a storm to get their point across. That usually puts up walls right off the bat.
Haha. Hilarious - i'd hate to see your posts if you wrote them without due research and care!
As a lawyer, i can only say that you don't understand the word "incontravertable". Since many of the posts on this forum could almost be construed as slander or defamation.
As a lawyer, then you also know about the ruling with the internet and opinion?
One player's great game is another players derisive snort!
http://www.darthmyr.com for free guild forums
In order for it to be considered libel, it would have to show malice and a blatant attempt to defame the public image of the game.
Most of the posts on these forums aren't malefic enough to be considered libel. While people don't agree with the game or how the boards are being run, its nothing that is considered illegal. Posting something that can be backed up with evidence is not considered libel. Opinions and false claims are two different things in the eyes of the legal system.
Running around claiming a game is a scam because so and so said their credit card was charged for X amount of dollars is libel. Calling people nasty names is not. Calling a person a negative word does not defame the integrity of the business. Its not nice, but its not illegal.
The legal system can be a scary thing. Most people think they are completely safe on the internet, but thats not entirely true. The internet is not a consequence free environment, like some ppl tend to believe.
I think what he's trying to get across is that the game won't be sitting at EBGames or Best Buy. The plans are to sell boxes purchased directly from the publisher. That doesn't mean the game won't go live in 3 months.
Anyways, its not tiamat that keeps coming on here and posting. Somebody's just trying to cause some more drama. He never goes by tiamat on any other boards except for the RoT boards. He's registered as something else on MP.com, which is the same as all his IRC nicks and other various screen names.
The devs aren't exactly worried about PR because they want the game to speak for itself. They have a very supportive publisher that has put up a good deal of money so they don't exactly have to worry if a bunch of ppl claiming that they won't pre-order. They just want to get the game done, but a lot of people seem to want to create drama. If you want the bash the game, then thats fine. If you have a problem with tiamat, just go over to the forums and tell him that you don't like how he's handling things. Just make sure to post it in the right forum and ease off on all the bad language. Their policy is to keep the boards clean of bad language, so that is why most posts get moved or people get banned. Its not the message that they are banning, its the way that people tend to go about expressing it. Swearing will get your thread almost immediately deleted and yourself closer to a ban.
I'm not here as a fanboi. I've trashtalked the publisher on other forums, but it didn't get me anywhere. I had some issues with the publisher and was getting upset, so I told tiamat about them and we discussed them. I ended up chatting with him about the state of the game and his vision for over an hour. It was the most amazing open and direct communication I've ever had with a dev. This summer when I'm on tour with a US Army unit over in Kosovo; I'm going to stop by the Mourning dev studio for a bit. I'm starting to get a visit arranged all because I sat down and talked to tiamat rather than trying to complain about it on some other set of forums. The guy just wants you to be honest with him and up front.
Its a lot better for everyone that if you have a problem with them to tell them and figure out where things went wrong. Trust me, tiamat is a very open person that spends a lot of time talking with the game community. It doesn't help when people swear up a storm to get their point across. That usually puts up walls right off the bat.
You have got to be kidding right? Tiamat... Very open to discuss things? I asked about the same things the poster here said (Pathfinding, NPC Dialog..ect) and got reprimanded by him when I questioned that he got angry and said I was sooo close to getting a "Diploma" He then called me names (Childish, Jerk ect) and trashed me. Not once did I trash him, just questioned about certain things. He may be nice to you for whatever reason but he is not nice to alot of people. They are just so unprofessional in my opinion.
'She just left. She didn't even care enough to cut off my head or set me on fire. I mean, is that too much to ask? You know? Some little sign that she cared?"
Tiamat has personally said that he does not give 2 cents of a rat's butt if the game is a huge hit or not, it doesnt need to be. 5000 players will make them all rich as can be, since they financed the game themselves out of pocket. He has said that countless times in defense of how HE and others treat their community.
I wouldnt exactly praise someone like that.
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Malianea
After some quick reading and finding this: http://www.realmsoftorment.net/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=18285 I have come to a conclusion.
One of two things are absolute fact.
1 - Tiamat's word is as good as dirt.
2 - Tiamat, the LEAD DEV, has no control at all over his own game's forum.
I dont know which is true, but obviously one of them is. Either way, its pathetic.
__________________________
Malianea
Brando is correct.
I would only add that under English law (not sure about US law but i doubt the principle is very different) the environment in which libel occurs (ie internet/ newspaper) is not relevant in itself. If you can prove libel, then that's sufficient.
That's hilarious.
Are you sure we have the same tiamat? I mean, wow.
http://www.syn-con.com/mourning/4.jpg
We tried talking to him. That's what happened. We subsequently made our first posts on MMORPG.com within the hour.