Lol... This is a very funny post to me, "we grew up"... HA!
I don't wanna grow up,
I'm a Toys eR Us kid.
There's a million toys at Toys eR Us
That I can play with.
From bikes to trains to video games
It's the biggest toy store there is!
I don't wanna growup, cuz, baby, if I did,
I couldn't be a Toys eR Us kid!
meh, I grew up in the 70's-80's :P
Most vet mmo gamers grew up long ago, know what is good and what is not.
Cute.. Your picture doesn't really correlate to your condescending jingle.
Again, its not about growing up, just cause the market turned to make games appease to the consumers ideals of instant gratification, doens't mean the market has matured,
While I really do agree with the OP's outlook right now with MMO's this post with the jingle, I really don't think it was meant as condescending, it does in its own way reflect a valid point not so much about actually growing up , but about being able to move on, being able like to let go of your first love, everything after it is always a comparison that never really measures up, sure you eventually find another but in reflection if only in private you will always yearn for that same feeling you felt with your first love .
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
I agree with this. The reverse is also true; when I try to recall the games I played for years and years - I have a sense of the "good ol' days" but when I try to remember the events and adentures... I remember the grind and frustration, the time sinks and corpse runs, the social battles and inner-game politics.
But you know it also makes me wonder as I have heard the same for other folks here, when you remember those grinds and frustrations GOD knows I had more than my fair share, what I remember about that as well is what made them tolerable enough to want to complete the goal at hand and for me it was the community or friend that I was with.
The sit around the camp fire kind of thing, to either brag about my success to my friends or to hear from them how they were able to accomplish some thing I wanted as well, or how I would or they would help me, I don't know it still brings me back to the same conclusion of just simply missing the social interaction part with in the game, that there was a real human behind that toon on the screen, that because of the setting became friends with me and the grinds and the frustrations became secondary because what there was to look forward to beyond the grinds were the friends we made, at least it was that way for me.
While I really do agree with the OP's outlook right now with MMO's this post with the jingle, I really don't think it was meant as condescending, it does in its own way reflect a valid point not so much about actually growing up , but about being able to move on, being able like to let go of your first love, everything after it is always a comparison that never really measures up, sure you eventually find another but in reflection if only in private you will always yearn for that same feeling you felt with your first love .
Believe me, I wasn't born the day I first logged into a mmo. How about my first flight sim? How about my first race game? How about my first fps game? I know what... what and what. And I'm sure most others do as well, apart form those that speculate that others don't! I know the differences in what was and what is, I was there as I am here. Not only do I understand the dish, but I have worked with the ingredients, popped it into the oven and let the aroma fill the house.
You know my first flight sim is much like my current one? How come those are not instanced? Why are they not dumbed down?? Why are they not noob friendly? You guys are missing out, you should be at flight sim forums trying to change their games!! Telling them they have no clue what they are doing or what they want. Pfff…
While I really do agree with the OP's outlook right now with MMO's this post with the jingle, I really don't think it was meant as condescending, it does in its own way reflect a valid point not so much about actually growing up , but about being able to move on, being able like to let go of your first love, everything after it is always a comparison that never really measures up, sure you eventually find another but in reflection if only in private you will always yearn for that same feeling you felt with your first love .
Believe me, I wasn't born the day I first logged into a mmo. How about my first flight sim? How about my first race game? How about my first fps game? I know what... what and what. And I'm sure most others do as well, apart form those that speculate that others don't! I know the differences in what was and what is, I was there as I am here. Not only do I understand the dish, but I have worked with the ingredients, popped it into the oven and let the aroma fill the house.
You know my first flight sim is much like my current one? How come those are not instanced? Why are they not dumbed down?? Why are they not noob friendly? You guys are missing out, you should be at flight sim forums trying to change their games!! Telling them they have no clue what they are doing or what they want. Pfff…
I think you miss understand my point, Ive been playing mmo and Betta testing games since the original Magnavox Odyssey, Atari PONG, Coleco Telstar, were talking about back in the mid 70's, my intent with my comment was not to offend or rile any one, it was an observation and an earnest one about simply enjoying and or playing what initially made us full in love with it in the first place, as far things being dumbed down I for one do agree, but it has every thing to do with main stream culture, think about for a moment when you cook something as obscure as a hot dog you did so in a pot waited for it to boil, today market are all ready tired of waiting the whole 45 sec for the Microwave to finish cooking, it's this i need total and instant gratification syndrome.
Sure there are plenty of those out there that simply don't have the time to spend as they used to so they tend to migrate to games that they play in very short spurts, and then go cook dinner for the kids and these same type of games that allow this type instant reaction is what is influencing the market and those that are willing to invest the big bucks to develop them
I used to like PvP when it was just a feature among features in a game. It may be nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but it seems like the gankers were more of a minority in "the good ol' days".
Then you haven't played UO.
As i remember it, you can't make a new char without being ganged before walking 10 steps.
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
Any genre is full of similar games. Shooters at their core are about shooting stuff, then shooting more stuff. Strategy games are about building an army and destroying another army. RPG's are about levelling or loot or story, depending on your preference. And MMO's are, to an extent, what your describe.
If you're tired of the concept, that's okay. It's not a fault of the games, which still serve the people who like the concept. You're probably just too jaded to care about the world of the game (possibly because you feel there's nothing new there) or other aspects, and so you're concentrating on the particular mindless task that you once felt was rewarding but now you don't understand why. Well, you grew up and changed. Try to find another game genre which suits your current tastes better.
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
Do you not realize what you just said?..... People are so ignorant.
THIS IS WHAT GAMES ARE FOR TO WASTE TIME!
Get over it. Thats what any game is going to do. Its there to waste time an make the day go by faster. Complaining about mindless games is like complaining abou a tree making oxygen... its doing its purpose.
I think you miss understand my point, Ive been playing mmo and Betta testing games since the original Magnavox Odyssey, Atari PONG, Coleco Telstar, were talking about back in the mid 70's, my intent with my comment was not to offend or rile any one, it was an observation and an earnest one about simply enjoying and or playing what initially made us full in love with it in the first place, as far things being dumbed down I for one do agree, but it has every thing to do with main stream culture, think about for a moment when you cook something as obscure as a hot dog you did so in a pot waited for it to boil, today market are all ready tired of waiting the whole 45 sec for the Microwave to finish cooking, it's this i need total and instant gratification syndrome.
Sure there are plenty of those out there that simply don't have the time to spend as they used to so they tend to migrate to games that they play in very short spurts, and then go cook dinner for the kids and these same type of games that allow this type instant reaction is what is influencing the market and those that are willing to invest the big bucks to develop them
I was always able to play mmo's in "short spurts" when that was what I had time for. It's just a whine for CRPG features, they wanted to solo instance zones just like in their off-line games. The things that were mostly dumbed down was anything community play related. They didn't like our games, they were vocal about that just like they still are. So they tried to change them, has been the effort even back since Blizzard-Diablo was popular and they were ticked because we would not classify it as a MMORPG. It's just whine whine whine whine your games suck. Eventually the nincompoop developers listened to them, and now you got fail after fail, because it's still not an authentic Blizzard game for them to play.
The idea that gaming has not evolved so why should MMO’s evolve is a fair one. We do have a set of genre games like FPS that just keep getting better at what they are doing. But MMO’s are a format for gamplay not a genre like Car Racing.
MMO’s as a format are relatively stagnant, Massive Multiplayer Online could mean so many genres. Virtual worlds, persistent FPS, Guitar Hero online, whatever.
Instead we have themepark MMO’s, nearly all WoW-like. A few exceptions like Second Life, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, Global Agenda. The upcoming APB, a more group based FF on the way, possibly STOR. But that’s it; look at how long the MMORPG game list is, the type of genres found in MMO’s is very narrow. Please feel free to add that list if you think I have missed something.
For the OP I'd say stick in there, maybe give TOR a try since there is the option to put your primary focus on the story and less on the grind. If the science fiction book genre was just beginning, and all the first books you have read have been the same you wouldn't give up on sci fi books would you? Or if movie making was just starting and all the first movies had the same simple boring story in black and white and no sound, would you give up on movies?
The MMO genre is the same, it's only what 18 years old? I think the transition of MMO's to be less about the technology of implementing quests and grinding for gear (to beat ever stronger monsters) and more about telling the somewhat unique personal story of your hero character is happening quicker. Being a veteran gamer I didn't any game could really impress me anymore but Mass Effect 2 didn't more than impress. The humor, mystery, cinematography, atmosphere, betrayal, relationships, the characters, the dialogue, the facial animations, it all came together to create a very good story. The game fit nicely into the story instead of the other way around. As the MMO game genre grows older you get more MMO veterans and more boredom with the standard formula you'll probably see a quicker transition to a main focus on the story, just like video games have done in general. So it would be hard to be "over" all MMOs, just be over the MMOs with bad stories.
Edit: On a side note the only reason I will play an MMO anymore is for really fun PVP, or a great story with a little exploration thrown in. Grinding or raiding lost its appeal years ago.
The idea that gaming has not evolved so why should MMO’s evolve is a fair one. We do have a set of genre games like FPS that just keep getting better at what they are doing. But MMO’s are a format for gamplay not a genre like Car Racing.
MMO’s as a format are relatively stagnant, Massive Multiplayer Online could mean so many genres. Virtual worlds, persistent FPS, Guitar Hero online, whatever.
Instead we have themepark MMO’s, nearly all WoW-like. A few exceptions like Second Life, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, Global Agenda. The upcoming APB, a more group based FF on the way, possibly STOR. But that’s it; look at how long the MMORPG game list is, the type of genres found in MMO’s is very narrow. Please feel free to add that list if you think I have missed something.
And those games you did list are mostly open PvP centric. That is actually a small percentage of the population that used to play before the now WoW-clonage. Then there is EVE but too PvP centric and with espionage for serious $$ ganking (sorry CCP). So we have WoW-clonage and PvP centric. Something for everyone? It really is odd when we think about it... what's the deal? hmmm... More variety in flight sims.
I've been playing MMOs for 7 years now, and they're all largely the same in my eyes, up to the point where the RTS genre looks fresh and innovative in comparison. I don't mind MMOs changing and doing things differently, like TOR is aiming to do - and I am annoyed to no end that the 'vets' keep complaining about lack of innovation in the genre, yet complain about *every* single change to the established formula. If the vocal minority on this forum had its way, MMO companies would do nothing but remake UO over and over again.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
You know my first flight sim is much like my current one? How come those are not instanced? Why are they not dumbed down?? Why are they not noob friendly? You guys are missing out, you should be at flight sim forums trying to change their games!! Telling them they have no clue what they are doing or what they want. Pfff…
This made me crack up, as I'm a sim-head too. I can only imagine the shitstorms that would happen if someone complained that Level-D or PMDG products were too hard and should be simplified.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I think that the mystique of MMO's and the online world is largely gone.
I remember when UO first came out, I would marvel at the size and scope of the world map and imagine the adventures that could be had all over the place. There was a feeling of a frontier and a simply massive scale to it.
I think that a big part of it is a bigger focus on character and combat than on interaction with a world. Class, race, build, role and gear are more important than the world itself. We aren't excited by the worlds anymore and I think that is the main departure that is troubling older gamers.
The unknown and the sense of adventure no longer really exist. These have been bred out largely as a side effect of adding convenience and mitigating risk for players. Certainly, most players prefer to not lose their progress in an adventure, but I do think that something was lost when most games started taking gear and stat loss out of death equations.
It certainly seems that games evolved, and I think that WoW streamlined the MMO experience in many ways that are positive.
However, I don't think that this streamlining and themepark design is the real problem for most older MMO players, rather it is just that we have, to put it simply, been there and done that. The idea of a game where we can interact with people in a community was once something that was novel and brilliant, but now it is something that we have been doing for over 15 years.
The nature of the game is no longer revolutionary. Unfortunately, I fear that MMOs never have that mystique again.
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
.
You play for the wrong reasons. MMOs never where that challenging.
.
You play to hang out with guildies and friends.
Agree 100%.
I'm an MMO vet. Looking forward to the release of TOR.
Last game I thought was fun was City of Heroes. Wasn't perfect, but it was fun to play a super hero game, and I had a great time designing characters.
Last game that really disappointed me was WAR. I was looking for a new and improved version of DAoC, and instead got a new and shittier version of DAoc.
Maybe TOR will suck, but maybe it will be fun like City of Heroes was fun.
Now see right here is the problem. City of heros was indeed a fun game...if you like no social interaction whatsoever. The main thing lacking from MMO's these days is there is no forced player interaction other than grouping to kill mobs and/or questing together. Solo games with a chat box does not a decent MMO make.
Let's hope to god ToR will NOT be anything like City of Heros. Give us a reason to talk, trade, craft, mingle, socialize, and interact with other players other than just killing mobs! If people do not want to be friendly with people they meet in an MMO they shouldn't be playing said MMO.
I think the key to what made precu SWG so immersive for me was the community. The fact there were so few quests meant you ended up meeting people in town or while you were out adventuring. People were more willing to develop relationships because the extent of those relations were not based specifically on short term goals (quests or quest chains). When you have quests you tend to have a lot of people running to or from somewhere, and they might be on the same quest but already started, or a different quest or a different quest within the quest. When there are no quests, people are more apt to create their own content by grouping up.
It made sense to network for the sake of getting a good deal on a blaster or armor piece, or for combat reasons. There were just layers and layers of social interaction, everything from economic or factional to guild or city politics...or your neighbor next door. There were entertainers, people to give you make overs, interior decorators, miners, scavengers, cooks and so many other things. For all it's failings, the game was a masterpiece in the social arena, and that to me is what really stands out between then and now.
I have hope we will see a game like precu SWG again one day, but I see nothing on the horizon remotely like it. So I twiddle my thumbs and dabble here and there. TOR looks interesting. LOTRO going F2P looks interesting. Right now I'm back for one month to dabble with WOW, but Red Dead Redemption seems more interesting right now to tell you the truth...I just wish it was an mmo.
I agree completely that no MMO has ever been equal to SWG preCU on the sense of community and ingame economics
preCU the game was alive and you where living in there
Dont think many people understand what all SWG vets talk about everytime we bring up preCU
Over the years ive been telling my friends in other MMOs about preCU and they all wanted to try it
It WAS a game of its own kind and still havnt seen anything like it
The topdogs in preCU was the jedi masters and it took 1+YEAR to get but everyone was okay with it taking so long cuz it was worth it and who ever reached it got the respect from the other players (at least on my server and they had my respect after i killed them on my bounty hunter)
Got all my fingers and toes crossed that TOR will lean towards it and not the endless grind in endgame
Hope the devs understand;
That weapon and armor DECAY is a good thing it keeps the ingame communtity going
That crafted item quality is a good thing cuz it DOES NOT equallize the players and DOES NOT make everyone even
Players will find their own endgame if were just given the tools (like a bounty hunter its PvP anytime and anywhere)
The biggest issue I feel is that atm mmorpgs are in limbo. WOW is such a massive presence that many new games try to emulate it (in parts if not completely) as the defacto model to build your mmorpg from.
This has caused a stagmation of new ideas. Look at it TANK,Melee dps, ranged dps,healer and controller are considered holy writ now and all games ultimatly end up finding their classes being placed inside these templates. We can not even blame the developers for this the player base it self will force the game mechanics in this direction by how the refer to the classes or treat them.
I feel that what we need now is an mmorpg which concentrates on the charcter and not the role. Perhaps a classless system or one which allocates a vast number of skills (maybe something like rolemaster).
Lastly, we need to be able to FAIL a quest truly fail and have repercussions. For example when doing a quest to escort someone to a location and the client dies you then need to explain the situation face consequences for your failure, not just go back and try again. Yes this is not easy to implement but it needs to be considered. ATM our mmorpgs are static hence our investment is shallow. Death has no meaning failure has no meaning hence .... the games have no meaning.
I'm trying to figure out the growing up part as it relates to the current games. The current games are for kiddies, they are simplistic, repetitive, and require little effort. They are games made for folks in diapers...unless you meant that is how far the people have grown up that enjoy them - to the point they are wearing diapers again.
For the most part, the folks that have grown up - have left. They no longer play.
There are those that are in the process of growing up - and - they are complaining a lot.
There are those still waiting for their testes to drop...and...they're having a blast!
People that I have played games for with over the past 12-13 years or so... most of them quit a couple of years back. There are a few that still play, but they are pretty obssessive about their game play.
In the past two weeks: I quit WoW, tried to play WAR again and quit again, installed AO - uninstalled AO, started the download for DF's trial - but cancelled it, downloaded DDO again - but deleted before installing, did the demo of STO and tried to pretend that I had not, tried the demo of CO and looked around for a busy intersection to walk out into, fought off the urge to resub to EVE from watching the Alliance Tournament stuff, and ended up resubscribing to CoH to try out Demon Summoning since I did the preorder for GR earlier in the year. Funny how that 3 days thing works, because though I doubt I played even an hour a day - I've uninstalled and cancelled CoH once more.
Nobody I know still plays any of those games outside of WoW - and they are all in one of those hardcore raiding guilds, so yeah - we don't talk much, lol...
...the thing is, I really do not feel any urge to try to meet folks in games. I used to play with people I knew outside of work or even folks I worked with... nobody plays these days, everybody...grew up.
Try Aion its not for kids but its just an endless grind :P
It's not simply that games in general have been dumbed down compared to earlier ones, but also that certain modern games have been dumbed down progressively since they were launched. EQ2 is a classic example, and WoW another. I was surprised in WoW, for example, to find when I rolled an alt yesterday that some early mobs that had aggroed when I last started a character no longer aggroed, so there was no tactic involved in picking them off one at a time, or picking up baskets in their midst.
One area in which it is fair to say that all modern MMO's have been dumbed down compared to eg early EQ is, of course, the death penalty. Dying in a MMO now means nothing at all, unless it's a travel tactic, whereas veteran EQ players will recall plenty of hair-raising moments trying to retrieve laden corpses from the middle of Nektulos Forest or the depths of some dungeon! That was part of what gave EQ its atmosphere and I do miss that. Did it involve a challenge? No, not in comparison to brain surgery or capping a leaking oil well thousands of feet below the ocean surface, but in gaming terms it represented more of a challenge than any modern MMO gives today.
I have very fond memories of those exact situations in EQ. I just don't use those memories as an excuse to insult or question the intelligence of those who enjoy todays MMOs ( referring to others in the thread, not you) as some people do.
In early SWG it was the same and some bug left a guys corpse for so long that it became a POI in the game (Point Of Interest)
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
Oh ye of little faith... put your chin up because it's not over for any mmo vet. I can tell you that due to the current technological landscape of games and the console market, we have what we have, but it will not always be that way. Developers for awhile now have been trying to figure out how to add player generated content, by this i mean not just creating pvp situations or social events, but to go beyond that and have user made weapons, armor, maybe even scripted events and world building. There are so many things developers, the good ones, want to do, but the technology is holding us back. We need more muliprocessing cpu and gpus in consumer hands, we need much faster bandwidth, we need our tools to evolve. This is happening but it will take a little bit of time. This is what I call the WoW era, it is a historic moment in mmorpg history because of WoW's success and I have a feeling much wont change until the time comes for WoW to go the way of teh dinosaur. It's a game from 2004 and its still has a pretty active team working on it, but all good things must come to an end eventually. Once the WoW era is over, good things will happen, perhaps even Blizzards next mmorpg.
Our enemy right now is the technology and a publishing system, both will change. Hang in there. All those things you hate about mmorpgs right now is mostly held back by technology and optimization... its only a matter of time till that can change.
Dumbed down how? All it took in EQ1 was a repeated killing of the same mob 1000s of times. I was there (like many vets). How is that challenging?
It was challenging because you needed a group to stay alive. Everyone had very different skills, not all heal bots and tanks. We relied on one another to stay alive, and needed to actually learn how to master our abilities, or face not being let into groups.
Not quite. In the dungeons, yes, you needed a group for most of the rooms. In the wild, you could find the stray green. Repeatedly. And there was no reason you HAD to go into the dungeons. So you could solo your way safely to the top. It just took 1000s of mobs. Easy. No challenge. And boring. What they have done today is change the 1000's to 10s.
I agree with you about MMO's being stagnent Gadareth.
I remember playing Severance years and years ago - single player - and thinking: "This is how MMO's will be one day." I've also loved the entire Prince of Persia series, the swiftness and agility of him, and every time I play I think: "This is how MMO's will be one day." And, just cause I gotta get it in, DAOC and the combo's - having to wait till the enemy blocked your attack and only then can you start your combo run... and getting half way through it and missing the timing and loosing the combo all together - One day maybe they'll link party combos? (they did in EQ2 but not very well) So your combo leads to another classes combos and so on? "This is how MMO's will be one day."
Then what about being a thief and swinging around the neck of a dragon after leaping off it's bended knee, while the mage blinds it and then sitting on it's back while it bucks away like a donkey, the warrior tries to distract it while you stab away at its back doing double damage every time, knowing you'll die once it throws you off?
And what about massive monsters just slaming into the party with a 10 foot club and everyone goes flying off - bar the mage who somehow managed to hit the jump button just at the right time? Starts to get a little cocky till he realises the entire party is presently 20 foot away on their backs stunned while he faces a giant all on his little own?
And what happened to continuing to be more like an RPG? Where climbing walls, absailing, slopes, collapses and so on are just another day in the dungeon? Nope, not a great deal different here from Eye of the Beholder in all honesty.
Not to mention 100/200 player wars... And would I click 'Yes' the message "In order to proceed into the Lands of War where 200 player battles are possible we will have to decrease your graphics to minimal settings - do you wish to continue?" You bet ya sweet ass I would! ("DAOC: Everyone turn your cloaks off!" springs to mind)
I think the reason why I'm soooo miffed at MMORPGs is because they could do soooo much with them but, instead, they do soooo little. And no to those who say: "Story is everything!" I don't really care if I'm killing some green thing because I'm saving the missis, the world or because it's got a puss cell I need for some bloke making poison - if you want plot, read a book. If you want a game, well, make something that's a little more involving than hit auto attack and watch the telly for 10 mins - if you use specials you just get to kill it quicker.
These are computer games and, from a pure computer game point of view, getting worse and worse. There's just no Game left in MMORPG - It's more of a Massive Single Player Online Grind and Quest "Shees these other players are always getting in my frigging way!" Saga.
There's just no fun left in them, no game. Just a mostly hostile chat room with something to do in the in between - neither of which are very appealing suprisingly.
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
.
You play for the wrong reasons. MMOs never where that challenging.
.
You play to hang out with guildies and friends.
Agree 100%.
I'm an MMO vet. Looking forward to the release of TOR.
Last game I thought was fun was City of Heroes. Wasn't perfect, but it was fun to play a super hero game, and I had a great time designing characters.
Last game that really disappointed me was WAR. I was looking for a new and improved version of DAoC, and instead got a new and shittier version of DAoc.
Maybe TOR will suck, but maybe it will be fun like City of Heroes was fun.
Now see right here is the problem. City of heros was indeed a fun game...if you like no social interaction whatsoever. The main thing lacking from MMO's these days is there is no forced player interaction other than grouping to kill mobs and/or questing together. Solo games with a chat box does not a decent MMO make.
Let's hope to god ToR will NOT be anything like City of Heros. Give us a reason to talk, trade, craft, mingle, socialize, and interact with other players other than just killing mobs! If people do not want to be friendly with people they meet in an MMO they shouldn't be playing said MMO.
/rant switch off<
Well... Its not so much some of the games designs, as it is some of the people involved. More and more, I'm seeing examples of people who I really don't want anything what so ever to do with. Creating a game that forces interactions, would likely be counter productive at this point. PvP games seem to be the worst, but I'm seeing it in PvE games as well.
I really do not see that changing, except for getting worse. Its not just games that are impacted by this growing trend either.
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While I really do agree with the OP's outlook right now with MMO's this post with the jingle, I really don't think it was meant as condescending, it does in its own way reflect a valid point not so much about actually growing up , but about being able to move on, being able like to let go of your first love, everything after it is always a comparison that never really measures up, sure you eventually find another but in reflection if only in private you will always yearn for that same feeling you felt with your first love .
But you know it also makes me wonder as I have heard the same for other folks here, when you remember those grinds and frustrations GOD knows I had more than my fair share, what I remember about that as well is what made them tolerable enough to want to complete the goal at hand and for me it was the community or friend that I was with.
The sit around the camp fire kind of thing, to either brag about my success to my friends or to hear from them how they were able to accomplish some thing I wanted as well, or how I would or they would help me, I don't know it still brings me back to the same conclusion of just simply missing the social interaction part with in the game, that there was a real human behind that toon on the screen, that because of the setting became friends with me and the grinds and the frustrations became secondary because what there was to look forward to beyond the grinds were the friends we made, at least it was that way for me.
Believe me, I wasn't born the day I first logged into a mmo. How about my first flight sim? How about my first race game? How about my first fps game? I know what... what and what. And I'm sure most others do as well, apart form those that speculate that others don't! I know the differences in what was and what is, I was there as I am here. Not only do I understand the dish, but I have worked with the ingredients, popped it into the oven and let the aroma fill the house.
You know my first flight sim is much like my current one? How come those are not instanced? Why are they not dumbed down?? Why are they not noob friendly? You guys are missing out, you should be at flight sim forums trying to change their games!! Telling them they have no clue what they are doing or what they want. Pfff…
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I think you miss understand my point, Ive been playing mmo and Betta testing games since the original Magnavox Odyssey, Atari PONG, Coleco Telstar, were talking about back in the mid 70's, my intent with my comment was not to offend or rile any one, it was an observation and an earnest one about simply enjoying and or playing what initially made us full in love with it in the first place, as far things being dumbed down I for one do agree, but it has every thing to do with main stream culture, think about for a moment when you cook something as obscure as a hot dog you did so in a pot waited for it to boil, today market are all ready tired of waiting the whole 45 sec for the Microwave to finish cooking, it's this i need total and instant gratification syndrome.
Sure there are plenty of those out there that simply don't have the time to spend as they used to so they tend to migrate to games that they play in very short spurts, and then go cook dinner for the kids and these same type of games that allow this type instant reaction is what is influencing the market and those that are willing to invest the big bucks to develop them
I used to like PvP when it was just a feature among features in a game. It may be nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but it seems like the gankers were more of a minority in "the good ol' days".
Then you haven't played UO.
As i remember it, you can't make a new char without being ganged before walking 10 steps.
Any genre is full of similar games. Shooters at their core are about shooting stuff, then shooting more stuff. Strategy games are about building an army and destroying another army. RPG's are about levelling or loot or story, depending on your preference. And MMO's are, to an extent, what your describe.
If you're tired of the concept, that's okay. It's not a fault of the games, which still serve the people who like the concept. You're probably just too jaded to care about the world of the game (possibly because you feel there's nothing new there) or other aspects, and so you're concentrating on the particular mindless task that you once felt was rewarding but now you don't understand why. Well, you grew up and changed. Try to find another game genre which suits your current tastes better.
Do you not realize what you just said?..... People are so ignorant.
THIS IS WHAT GAMES ARE FOR TO WASTE TIME!
Get over it. Thats what any game is going to do. Its there to waste time an make the day go by faster. Complaining about mindless games is like complaining abou a tree making oxygen... its doing its purpose.
Sigh people are so ignorant.
I was always able to play mmo's in "short spurts" when that was what I had time for. It's just a whine for CRPG features, they wanted to solo instance zones just like in their off-line games. The things that were mostly dumbed down was anything community play related. They didn't like our games, they were vocal about that just like they still are. So they tried to change them, has been the effort even back since Blizzard-Diablo was popular and they were ticked because we would not classify it as a MMORPG. It's just whine whine whine whine your games suck. Eventually the nincompoop developers listened to them, and now you got fail after fail, because it's still not an authentic Blizzard game for them to play.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Anyone who says that MMOs never were that challenging never played Asheron's Call on Darktide.
And what you quoted was of course a reference to pve just like what they qouted was a reference to pve. Obviously, pvp is "hard" compared to pve.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
The idea that gaming has not evolved so why should MMO’s evolve is a fair one. We do have a set of genre games like FPS that just keep getting better at what they are doing. But MMO’s are a format for gamplay not a genre like Car Racing.
MMO’s as a format are relatively stagnant, Massive Multiplayer Online could mean so many genres. Virtual worlds, persistent FPS, Guitar Hero online, whatever.
Instead we have themepark MMO’s, nearly all WoW-like. A few exceptions like Second Life, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, Global Agenda. The upcoming APB, a more group based FF on the way, possibly STOR. But that’s it; look at how long the MMORPG game list is, the type of genres found in MMO’s is very narrow. Please feel free to add that list if you think I have missed something.
For the OP I'd say stick in there, maybe give TOR a try since there is the option to put your primary focus on the story and less on the grind. If the science fiction book genre was just beginning, and all the first books you have read have been the same you wouldn't give up on sci fi books would you? Or if movie making was just starting and all the first movies had the same simple boring story in black and white and no sound, would you give up on movies?
The MMO genre is the same, it's only what 18 years old? I think the transition of MMO's to be less about the technology of implementing quests and grinding for gear (to beat ever stronger monsters) and more about telling the somewhat unique personal story of your hero character is happening quicker. Being a veteran gamer I didn't any game could really impress me anymore but Mass Effect 2 didn't more than impress. The humor, mystery, cinematography, atmosphere, betrayal, relationships, the characters, the dialogue, the facial animations, it all came together to create a very good story. The game fit nicely into the story instead of the other way around. As the MMO game genre grows older you get more MMO veterans and more boredom with the standard formula you'll probably see a quicker transition to a main focus on the story, just like video games have done in general. So it would be hard to be "over" all MMOs, just be over the MMOs with bad stories.
Edit: On a side note the only reason I will play an MMO anymore is for really fun PVP, or a great story with a little exploration thrown in. Grinding or raiding lost its appeal years ago.
And those games you did list are mostly open PvP centric. That is actually a small percentage of the population that used to play before the now WoW-clonage. Then there is EVE but too PvP centric and with espionage for serious $$ ganking (sorry CCP). So we have WoW-clonage and PvP centric. Something for everyone? It really is odd when we think about it... what's the deal? hmmm... More variety in flight sims.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I've been playing MMOs for 7 years now, and they're all largely the same in my eyes, up to the point where the RTS genre looks fresh and innovative in comparison. I don't mind MMOs changing and doing things differently, like TOR is aiming to do - and I am annoyed to no end that the 'vets' keep complaining about lack of innovation in the genre, yet complain about *every* single change to the established formula. If the vocal minority on this forum had its way, MMO companies would do nothing but remake UO over and over again.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
This made me crack up, as I'm a sim-head too. I can only imagine the shitstorms that would happen if someone complained that Level-D or PMDG products were too hard and should be simplified.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I think that the mystique of MMO's and the online world is largely gone.
I remember when UO first came out, I would marvel at the size and scope of the world map and imagine the adventures that could be had all over the place. There was a feeling of a frontier and a simply massive scale to it.
I think that a big part of it is a bigger focus on character and combat than on interaction with a world. Class, race, build, role and gear are more important than the world itself. We aren't excited by the worlds anymore and I think that is the main departure that is troubling older gamers.
The unknown and the sense of adventure no longer really exist. These have been bred out largely as a side effect of adding convenience and mitigating risk for players. Certainly, most players prefer to not lose their progress in an adventure, but I do think that something was lost when most games started taking gear and stat loss out of death equations.
It certainly seems that games evolved, and I think that WoW streamlined the MMO experience in many ways that are positive.
However, I don't think that this streamlining and themepark design is the real problem for most older MMO players, rather it is just that we have, to put it simply, been there and done that. The idea of a game where we can interact with people in a community was once something that was novel and brilliant, but now it is something that we have been doing for over 15 years.
The nature of the game is no longer revolutionary. Unfortunately, I fear that MMOs never have that mystique again.
Now see right here is the problem. City of heros was indeed a fun game...if you like no social interaction whatsoever. The main thing lacking from MMO's these days is there is no forced player interaction other than grouping to kill mobs and/or questing together. Solo games with a chat box does not a decent MMO make.
Let's hope to god ToR will NOT be anything like City of Heros. Give us a reason to talk, trade, craft, mingle, socialize, and interact with other players other than just killing mobs! If people do not want to be friendly with people they meet in an MMO they shouldn't be playing said MMO.
/rant switch off<
I agree completely that no MMO has ever been equal to SWG preCU on the sense of community and ingame economics
preCU the game was alive and you where living in there
Dont think many people understand what all SWG vets talk about everytime we bring up preCU
Over the years ive been telling my friends in other MMOs about preCU and they all wanted to try it
It WAS a game of its own kind and still havnt seen anything like it
The topdogs in preCU was the jedi masters and it took 1+YEAR to get but everyone was okay with it taking so long cuz it was worth it and who ever reached it got the respect from the other players (at least on my server and they had my respect after i killed them on my bounty hunter)
Got all my fingers and toes crossed that TOR will lean towards it and not the endless grind in endgame
Hope the devs understand;
That weapon and armor DECAY is a good thing it keeps the ingame communtity going
That crafted item quality is a good thing cuz it DOES NOT equallize the players and DOES NOT make everyone even
Players will find their own endgame if were just given the tools (like a bounty hunter its PvP anytime and anywhere)
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
The biggest issue I feel is that atm mmorpgs are in limbo. WOW is such a massive presence that many new games try to emulate it (in parts if not completely) as the defacto model to build your mmorpg from.
This has caused a stagmation of new ideas. Look at it TANK,Melee dps, ranged dps,healer and controller are considered holy writ now and all games ultimatly end up finding their classes being placed inside these templates. We can not even blame the developers for this the player base it self will force the game mechanics in this direction by how the refer to the classes or treat them.
I feel that what we need now is an mmorpg which concentrates on the charcter and not the role. Perhaps a classless system or one which allocates a vast number of skills (maybe something like rolemaster).
Lastly, we need to be able to FAIL a quest truly fail and have repercussions. For example when doing a quest to escort someone to a location and the client dies you then need to explain the situation face consequences for your failure, not just go back and try again. Yes this is not easy to implement but it needs to be considered. ATM our mmorpgs are static hence our investment is shallow. Death has no meaning failure has no meaning hence .... the games have no meaning.
just my 2 cents
Gadareth
Try Aion its not for kids but its just an endless grind :P
So far the most beautyful MMO ive seen
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
In early SWG it was the same and some bug left a guys corpse for so long that it became a POI in the game (Point Of Interest)
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
Oh ye of little faith... put your chin up because it's not over for any mmo vet. I can tell you that due to the current technological landscape of games and the console market, we have what we have, but it will not always be that way. Developers for awhile now have been trying to figure out how to add player generated content, by this i mean not just creating pvp situations or social events, but to go beyond that and have user made weapons, armor, maybe even scripted events and world building. There are so many things developers, the good ones, want to do, but the technology is holding us back. We need more muliprocessing cpu and gpus in consumer hands, we need much faster bandwidth, we need our tools to evolve. This is happening but it will take a little bit of time. This is what I call the WoW era, it is a historic moment in mmorpg history because of WoW's success and I have a feeling much wont change until the time comes for WoW to go the way of teh dinosaur. It's a game from 2004 and its still has a pretty active team working on it, but all good things must come to an end eventually. Once the WoW era is over, good things will happen, perhaps even Blizzards next mmorpg.
Our enemy right now is the technology and a publishing system, both will change. Hang in there. All those things you hate about mmorpgs right now is mostly held back by technology and optimization... its only a matter of time till that can change.
Not quite. In the dungeons, yes, you needed a group for most of the rooms. In the wild, you could find the stray green. Repeatedly. And there was no reason you HAD to go into the dungeons. So you could solo your way safely to the top. It just took 1000s of mobs. Easy. No challenge. And boring. What they have done today is change the 1000's to 10s.
I agree with you about MMO's being stagnent Gadareth.
I remember playing Severance years and years ago - single player - and thinking: "This is how MMO's will be one day." I've also loved the entire Prince of Persia series, the swiftness and agility of him, and every time I play I think: "This is how MMO's will be one day." And, just cause I gotta get it in, DAOC and the combo's - having to wait till the enemy blocked your attack and only then can you start your combo run... and getting half way through it and missing the timing and loosing the combo all together - One day maybe they'll link party combos? (they did in EQ2 but not very well) So your combo leads to another classes combos and so on? "This is how MMO's will be one day."
Then what about being a thief and swinging around the neck of a dragon after leaping off it's bended knee, while the mage blinds it and then sitting on it's back while it bucks away like a donkey, the warrior tries to distract it while you stab away at its back doing double damage every time, knowing you'll die once it throws you off?
And what about massive monsters just slaming into the party with a 10 foot club and everyone goes flying off - bar the mage who somehow managed to hit the jump button just at the right time? Starts to get a little cocky till he realises the entire party is presently 20 foot away on their backs stunned while he faces a giant all on his little own?
And what happened to continuing to be more like an RPG? Where climbing walls, absailing, slopes, collapses and so on are just another day in the dungeon? Nope, not a great deal different here from Eye of the Beholder in all honesty.
Not to mention 100/200 player wars... And would I click 'Yes' the message "In order to proceed into the Lands of War where 200 player battles are possible we will have to decrease your graphics to minimal settings - do you wish to continue?" You bet ya sweet ass I would! ("DAOC: Everyone turn your cloaks off!" springs to mind)
I think the reason why I'm soooo miffed at MMORPGs is because they could do soooo much with them but, instead, they do soooo little. And no to those who say: "Story is everything!" I don't really care if I'm killing some green thing because I'm saving the missis, the world or because it's got a puss cell I need for some bloke making poison - if you want plot, read a book. If you want a game, well, make something that's a little more involving than hit auto attack and watch the telly for 10 mins - if you use specials you just get to kill it quicker.
These are computer games and, from a pure computer game point of view, getting worse and worse. There's just no Game left in MMORPG - It's more of a Massive Single Player Online Grind and Quest "Shees these other players are always getting in my frigging way!" Saga.
There's just no fun left in them, no game. Just a mostly hostile chat room with something to do in the in between - neither of which are very appealing suprisingly.
It's all just such a shame!!!
Well... Its not so much some of the games designs, as it is some of the people involved. More and more, I'm seeing examples of people who I really don't want anything what so ever to do with. Creating a game that forces interactions, would likely be counter productive at this point. PvP games seem to be the worst, but I'm seeing it in PvE games as well.
I really do not see that changing, except for getting worse. Its not just games that are impacted by this growing trend either.