No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on.
You hit the nail right on the head.
I've been playing MMOs since the beginning and I certainly have moved on. Times change and you either change with them or go find another hobby.
Besides, the evolution of MMOs in the past 10 years is neither good or bad, just different. Adjust.
Ah I see. So you see nothing wrong with your condecending posts telling people to go bugger off or change their tastes to "get with the times"?
Many people who were interested in MMORPGs haven't "evolved", they've left. I've seen little to no advancement in the last 6 years of MMORPGs. Probably the biggest innovation was public quests, and that's pathetic. Everything else has been getting simpler and simpler and simpler. That's not evolution by any stretch of the definition. In fact that's the opposite of evolution.
How would you like it if someone took your favorite genre/hobby, totally changed it, and when you expressed that you were upset, everyone laughed at you and said "man, get with the times or find something else to do".
Some of you really need to stop being so selfish and closed minded.
This isn't about change, this isn't about being young or old.... it is about values of the players and the designs of the game. I agree that soloing has aided in killing the genre, I also agree that these days time is a valued commodity and that soloing is a must. I guess I am just trying to point out that It isn't just the game styles I miss...... it's forming memories, friendships.. but now, it just doesn't happen much.
Well enough of my early morning rant..... take it or leave it, just my 2 cents. (If you can make sense of it.)
Averros
I see soloing as both contributing to the decline of MMOs and being a result of the decline. While having limited time to play is a valid reason to want to solo, there are others that have to do with the people you group with-- people who tend to make up the majority of the game's population it seems. I like to read quest text. I like to slow it down, plan out what I'm going to do, and try out different ways of approaching a problem. Seems like every time I group it's like GOGOGO! STEAMROLL THE BITCH! DOOD, GET ON VENT, I CAN'T READ LOL!
So we have a chicken and the egg situation here. Do people who solo do it because the game itself encourages it, or is it because the community is such a pile of shit that the game is best enjoyed without it?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Kill mobs
Step 2. Level
Step 3. Kill more mobs
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.
So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.
I honestly don't think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over the years. It was a great ride no questions there.
With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as
NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.
Wow....AoC must have changed allot, I thought the game had crafting, scavaging, pvp, but seems pretty limited now if all you can do is kill mobs and lvl, or is this just YOUR playstyle that makes your experiance boring? Just wondering.................
And no, I aint playing AoC, I did though at beta and launch, luckely didn't experiance that much bad things at launch as to what I kept reading from people having such horrible experiances with bugs and other issue's, but overall the game wasn't for me, partially due to it being low fantasy, another part was that I lvl'd far to fast to actually enjoy it.
I am actually replying to this post cause due to me being a VET I look for more then just kill AI mobs in MMORPG, thankfully I havn't changed much as what ever game I play or try, I look for what is out there, never thought MMO vets would look at only kill AI mobs, tbh.
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on. Most of us who started playing long, long ago no longer want the same thing out of games that we wanted back then, most of us have grown up, most of us no longer have the time or interest in sitting around in a time-wasting game, pretending it's somehow challenging.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
Sure maybe its possible some vets adapted and matured which why these new easymode games appeal to them. However the truth could also be they are as addicted to MMOs as a toothless crack whore is to crack, and just like them will suffer any amount of degradation to get their fix. It really could go either way, its really hard to call. That's always a problem when you make broad, sweeping, and above all unfair, generalizations about people you don't really know.
And neither do you. Of course, mine is based on evidence, the MMO marketplace demonstrably changed to reflect the overall desire of the players, that's why there are millions more people playing MMOs today than there were back in the UO/EQ1 days. Unless you're suggesting that these people are all playing games they absolutely hate as part of some vast global conspiracy to piss off vets, you really have no leg to stand on in your accusations.
In fact, it seems to be a very vocal, small group of old-timers who are acting as "toothless crack whores" and cannot get past the "good old days". If modern MMOs don't appeal to you, fine. Go find a different hobby. Get a life. Stop sitting around whining about how good the "good old days" were and how you deserve to be treated special so your nostalgic fantasies can return.
Meh - I played and loved SWG, but that was at another point in my life. Today, no matter what the game, I could never get lost in it the way I could before.
MMOs are essentially escapism.. no offence to anyone, but from personal experience, once your real life reaches a certain level of fulfillment MMOs are simply not that much fun anymore.
i dont know about the rest of you, but im mostly just screwing around until the shadowbane emulator is on its feet.
Shadowbane has everything everyone is always whining about lacking. maybe not so good for the pure PvEers, but who cares about the MMO opinions of people who only want to play games that are ostensibly single player anyhow?
People keep talking about adapting to the way stuff changes and whatnot, and I guess that's somewhat an issue, but the fact is that we're not adapting to improvements, we are more or less having to put up with games becoming worse. Much like pop music has gone downhill from the start, so too has the mmo genre.
No, *YOU* don't think they are improvements, that doesn't mean that they are not. The game industry, just like every industry, doesn't cater to the individual, but to trends across their entire customer base. Just because a relatively small number of people don't like where the trend is going doesn't mean that there isn't a trend. The MMO marketplace has grown tremendously since the UO days, it went from a niche market to a multi-billion dollar industry.
Unfortunately, you seem to be incapable of seeing past your own personal biases and into the larger industry and marketplace as a whole. You don't like something, therefore you declare it bad. That's not a rational position to be arguing from.
If adapting to change means i have to listen to play the Lady Gaga of mmo's... I guess that's it for me..
That's it, all you care about is *YOU*. That's an extremely self-centered position to start from, especially if you leap from there to claiming that everything is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to what you want. If you don't like Lady Gaga, don't listen. Nobody is forcing you. If you don't like MMOs, don't play, nobody is holding a gun to your head. Find something better. Stop acting like you're entitled to anything.
Said it before and I'll say it again.. Create geezer servers in mmo's with a minimum age of 22 or something like that. A lot of kids are extremely impatient ( GOOOGO GOGOGO!!!!! ) and they throw hissy fits constantly. That stuff ruins the game for me completely. The past few years I've been playing solo in pretty much all MMO's because I just can't be around all the negativity of the 16 year old elitists who geargrind and crunch numbers like pimply little loot crazed meth addicts.
It won't matter, the average age in MMOs is already 28 and it hasn't stopped the "bad communities" yet, nor will it. The problem isn't the people, it's that you have a vast variety of different people with different goals, different worldviews and different lifestyles playing the games. The only reason older games had "good communities" is because they were relatively homogenous. Almost everyone playing them was a nerd, those were the only people who had the equipment, the time and the focus to play those games, so almost everyone you ran into had the same basic views you did.
I blame it all on sissyfication. Can MMO"s of today get any easier? There are definitely certain parts of this evolution that I have enjoyed, but now that I look back, my fondest memories came from games that forced me into a larger social setting to deliver various rewards. I currently play LOTRO and as much as I enjoy the environment and the story, there is almost nothing that requires me to be social. I can solo endlessly, kill, level and travel at a whim.
When I first saw this post I was expecting to see yet another "end of days" post that so often seem to populate these boards. As I look back I realize that in some sense its been very true for me. I wont give up hope on the future, but for now it seems that MMO's are evoling closer to action role playing games then anything else. I better get out my joystick (which sadly is already an option for some).
With UO skill maxxing was easy, but the larger game had an inherent social dynamic that was very immersive. They forced you to travel on roads rife with criminal's and visit cities to collect your bounties. You planned/built your house to be near friends or part of a larger community or opened a merchant house on a busy intersection.
In EQ, levelling was hard, travelling could also be hard, crafting was ridiculous at times, corpse recoveries were ugh, and the list goes on. I broke a few keyboards, even a card table once from sheer frustration of playing this game clearly bent on my destruction developed by the devil himself. Yet today I am nostalgic for those epic corpse runs with friends, or the outrageous cooperation that yielded one of those planar bracelets (good lord the insanity with those, devils I tell ye).
Asherons Call and Dark Age of Camelot are the last 2 I remember in this same vein. All in all it seems that the fondest memories I have of any game all stem from socialization on some level.
Today there is so much focus on action, levelling and ease of use. I think WOW has demonstrated that are more gamers who prefer the action grind over social features and thus the model has shifted dramatically and at a great loss to the rest of us. Who will invest in a 2nd coming of UO?
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
i dont know about the rest of you, but im mostly just screwing around until the shadowbane emulator is on its feet.
Shadowbane has everything everyone is always whining about lacking. maybe not so good for the pure PvEers, but who cares about the MMO opinions of people who only want to play games that are ostensibly single player anyhow?
Have you ever wondered what WoW could have been like had it been more like SB? Keep the "major" cities as starting areas and PvPless... but as for the rest of the world, having it open to guild/alliance cities and actual... you know, "warcraft" instead of "gearcraft".
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Yeah, that was fun right up until you had people doing it on purpose, over and over and over, just to piss everyone behind them off. Then it wasn't quite so much fun.
i dont know about the rest of you, but im mostly just screwing around until the shadowbane emulator is on its feet.
Shadowbane has everything everyone is always whining about lacking. maybe not so good for the pure PvEers, but who cares about the MMO opinions of people who only want to play games that are ostensibly single player anyhow?
Have you ever wondered what WoW could have been like had it been more like SB? Keep the "major" cities as starting areas and PvPless... but as for the rest of the world, having it open to guild/alliance cities and actual... you know, "warcraft" instead of "gearcraft".
yeah, i dont think blizzard couldve ruined WoW's potential and more than they did. WoW in its current form never plays as anything more interesting than a demo for a great but uncompleted game.
i was sure that shadowbane style PvP servers would be the next big thing in WoW...but i guess the concept somehow blew right over the heads of the current design team...
If WoW ever released an open buildable server, they would have the entire market. destructable player housing, territory wars, dynamic long term conflict....it would be amazing. and they could implement it so easily!!!!
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on. Most of us who started playing long, long ago no longer want the same thing out of games that we wanted back then, most of us have grown up, most of us no longer have the time or interest in sitting around in a time-wasting game, pretending it's somehow challenging.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
Sure maybe its possible some vets adapted and matured which why these new easymode games appeal to them. However the truth could also be they are as addicted to MMOs as a toothless crack whore is to crack, and just like them will suffer any amount of degradation to get their fix. It really could go either way, its really hard to call. That's always a problem when you make broad, sweeping, and above all unfair, generalizations about people you don't really know.
And neither do you. Of course, mine is based on evidence, the MMO marketplace demonstrably changed to reflect the overall desire of the players, that's why there are millions more people playing MMOs today than there were back in the UO/EQ1 days. Unless you're suggesting that these people are all playing games they absolutely hate as part of some vast global conspiracy to piss off vets, you really have no leg to stand on in your accusations.
In fact, it seems to be a very vocal, small group of old-timers who are acting as "toothless crack whores" and cannot get past the "good old days". If modern MMOs don't appeal to you, fine. Go find a different hobby. Get a life. Stop sitting around whining about how good the "good old days" were and how you deserve to be treated special so your nostalgic fantasies can return.
Ah of course here is your patented universal reply to anyone who shows even a bit of dislike for the current state of MMO gaming, "If you don't like it get a different hobby" Which is a hilarious response considering you said this about MMOs just a few days ago. In your own words from a post on a different topic "The problem is, what I want to play simply doesn't exist and is such a small niche that it never will. I haven't outgrown MMOs, I've just outgrown MMOs that are actually made. What I want and what I'll get are two entirely different things." So as I said before YOU have decided to settle for what they will give you. Or worse you have just thrown up your hands in disgust and decided to haunt these forums pissing on anyone elses optimism like a bitter old maid. Well some of us haven't given up the fight. If that idea displeases you so badly, and considering the amount of arrogant vitriol you spew in almost every post I've read by you, I'm assured that it does, why don't you take your own advice and find some other hobby than posting on game discussion forum? As you so obviously aren't interested in anyones point of view save your own bitter and frustrated viewpoint.
The rest of you guys can continue to listen to this broken record. Me I'm wishing him into the cornfield of ignore.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Unfortunately, people want to change EVE - they see an increasing need for fluffy humanoid avatars. So for those that enjoyed it without... they too will have to move on.
Well, I don’t play EVE, maybe not yet I don’t know.. but I don’t see their formula of avatars as bad. It’s basically Earth & Beyond style avatars from what I’ve read… and hopefully done better. If like EnB, it’s not something that dumbs down the game. Adding new stuff to a game is not bad (apart from instances), generally isn’t my problem, but taking existing systems and dumbing them down, that is the damnation many of our old-school games took upon themselves to lure in new players. Basically changing the dynamics of the game.
Of course it’s more of a neutral improvement with avatars, doesn’t really add to the game, but doesn’t take away from the core, experience or dynamics of the existing game play. It was pretty good in EnB as I recall, though was never enough for some. But it was never meant to be the core of the game. I think with a lot of ex-SWG players, they probably miss switching from space zones to the star port areas. It actually does belong, but really up to the community and the developer. Fear the ones that come in and say “it’s too haaaard”, they are the death of the game.
Geez, reminds me of SWG, if they spent more time adding to the game rather than changing it constantly, SWG would have wicked depth now... rather than what it is
Dumbed down how? All it took in EQ1 was a repeated killing of the same mob 1000s of times. I was there (like many vets). How is that challenging?
It was challenging because you needed a group to stay alive. Everyone had very different skills, not all heal bots and tanks. We relied on one another to stay alive, and needed to actually learn how to master our abilities, or face not being let into groups. Once instancing and adjusted mob’s came in, it was pretty much over. EQ1 was the only game I really enjoyed pick-up groups, as in time those groups you got to know because they were not moving all over the game world on a daily basis. Instant travel was a bad thing, and instances only divided the players even more. The game world dumbed down.
Same thing happens in rl now. You know all your neighbors well? Most don’t now, not like it was years ago. Everyone moves around, stays in a house for maybe 5 years. I’ve been in my house for 20 years, I have four neighbors that have been in my neighborhood for as long from when we started building here. Rest come and go and you can never keep up. There is a major disconnect in the US with neighborhoods, people moving around all the time. Same with EQ1, and even worse with these area progression instanced theme park games, no community.
Unfortunately, people want to change EVE - they see an increasing need for fluffy humanoid avatars. So for those that enjoyed it without... they too will have to move on.
Well, I don’t play EVE, maybe not yet I don’t know.. but I don’t see their formula of avatars as bad. It’s basically Earth & Beyond style avatars from what I’ve read… and hopefully done better. If like EnB, it’s not something that dumbs down the game. Adding new stuff to a game is not bad (apart from instances), generally isn’t my problem, but taking existing systems and dumbing them down, that is the damnation many of our old-school games took upon themselves to lure in new players. Basically changing the dynamics of the game.
Of course it’s more of a neutral improvement with avatars, doesn’t really add to the game, but doesn’t take away from the core, experience or dynamics of the existing game play. It was pretty good in EnB as I recall, though was never enough for some. But it was never meant to be the core of the game. I think with a lot of ex-SWG players, they probably miss switching from space zones to the star port areas. It actually does belong, but really up to the community and the developer. Fear the ones that come in and say “it’s too haaaard”, they are the death of the game.
Geez, reminds me of SWG, if they spent more time adding to the game rather than changing it constantly, SWG would have wicked depth now... rather than what it is
Oh man what an amazing idea, Daywolf.
As to Eve, I'm one of the impatient dickweeds who could never get past the learning curve, so I don't feel I could formulate an educated opinion on what the game should and shouldn't have. However funnily enough, one of the things that kept me from even trying Eve out for so long was that you only got to play a spaceship. Which is actually kind of weird because if someone made say a Wing Commander or Mechwarrior MMO where I only got to pilot a ship or a giant Mech, I would play those in a heartbeat.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
But when someone says the older games weren't more challenging, I stop believing them. Because I know from that statement that they either didn't play the older games, or they didn't play very long, very well or very much.
You do understand that in some of those cases, they are really talking about post-NGE style gaming. I've noticed a number of posters (other threads) say they played them and were nothing special... then described the dynamics of the game play after these games got changed. Everyone is a vet these days, eh?
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on. Most of us who started playing long, long ago no longer want the same thing out of games that we wanted back then, most of us have grown up, most of us no longer have the time or interest in sitting around in a time-wasting game, pretending it's somehow challenging.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
Sure maybe its possible some vets adapted and matured which why these new easymode games appeal to them. However the truth could also be they are as addicted to MMOs as a toothless crack whore is to crack, and just like them will suffer any amount of degradation to get their fix. It really could go either way, its really hard to call. That's always a problem when you make broad, sweeping, and above all unfair, generalizations about people you don't really know.
And neither do you. Of course, mine is based on evidence, the MMO marketplace demonstrably changed to reflect the overall desire of the players, that's why there are millions more people playing MMOs today than there were back in the UO/EQ1 days. Unless you're suggesting that these people are all playing games they absolutely hate as part of some vast global conspiracy to piss off vets, you really have no leg to stand on in your accusations.
In fact, it seems to be a very vocal, small group of old-timers who are acting as "toothless crack whores" and cannot get past the "good old days". If modern MMOs don't appeal to you, fine. Go find a different hobby. Get a life. Stop sitting around whining about how good the "good old days" were and how you deserve to be treated special so your nostalgic fantasies can return.
Ah of course here is your patented universal reply to anyone who shows even a bit of dislike for the current state of MMO gaming, "If you don't like it get a different hobby" Which is a hilarious response considering you said this about MMOs just a few days ago. In your own words from a post on a different topic "The problem is, what I want to play simply doesn't exist and is such a small niche that it never will. I haven't outgrown MMOs, I've just outgrown MMOs that are actually made. What I want and what I'll get are two entirely different things." So as I said before YOU have decided to settle for what they will give you. Or worse you have just thrown up your hands in disgust and decided to haunt these forums pissing on anyone elses optimism like a bitter old maid. Well some of us haven't given up the fight. If that idea displeases you so badly, and considering the amount of arrogant vitriol you spew in almost every post I've read by you, I'm assured that it does, why don't you take your own advice and find some other hobby than posting on game discussion forum? As you so obviously aren't interested in anyones point of view save your own bitter and frustrated viewpoint.
The rest of you guys can continue to listen to this broken record. Me I'm wishing him into the cornfield of ignore.
Which is false. I personally don't care for the current state of MMO gaming, but I understand why it is the way it is and I also understand that it has no obligation whatsoever to cater to me, any more than it does to cater to you. I realize that the games I want to play will not be made because I do not represent a significant financial segment of the MMO playing population. I'm not saying that someone doesn't have the right to want something other than what currently exists, certainly you have every right to wish for what you wish for, that doesn't mean that you're entitled to actually get it!
I'm not settling for what they'll give me, I'm not playing any games, which you would know if you actually looked at my sig. I'm just not being a whiny little bitch with an entitlement fantasy, thinking that somehow, they owe it to me to make the game that I want.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
So they perfected a pill to bring ones IQ level down low enough to enjoy these games? I mean I don’t want any permanent IQ loss, only temporal so I can actually enjoy your games for short periods of time.
If you don't like them, what in the world are you doing playing them? Or do you just like complaining?
I'm not! I usually have 2 or 3 subs, I already mentioned this. I have one game I play that is a complete sandbox(SL), and that mainly because I’m into indie development with solid content dev skills and programming(lesser). Anything on my current sig list post SWG-NGE is not long-term sub at all. Anything before that point is 2-5 year subs, on multiple running subs.
The games now are FUBAR, they are noob games, only short-term whimsical-hype box sales games for the non-mmo player with fail written all over them. Fine if they want those games, but it's beyond annoying when they expect every game to go that way. So it leaves me with at least 2 open subs, and no games to fill them because they are not what most vets want, including myself. It's not selfish to want diversity, it's only selfish to try to crush what others like and replace it all with what you like alone, telling them to move on etc.. selfish little world we live in.
Originally posted by Cephus404
I'm sorry, but "growing up" is an ongoing process, you don't just do it once and never again. If the last time you "grew up" was in the 70s-80s, you're seriously overdue.
LOL what are you, 90ft tall??? Maybe you are thinking of growing-out? Like bulbous parts growing forward and back?
Sure, in that case you get lazy and want it all easy, makes sense. lol
lol like STO to get a trial key, needed to go to a fast food joint and buy stuff. Get fat! have fun!! lol
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
I agree with this. The reverse is also true; when I try to recall the games I played for years and years - I have a sense of the "good ol' days" but when I try to remember the events and adentures... I remember the grind and frustration, the time sinks and corpse runs, the social battles and inner-game politics.
So far the only 3 arguments I keep seeing repeated are...
"Get with the times, or get out. Your games are gone, deal with it."
"You obviously don't remember how bad old MMOs were, you're just remembering the good things, you clearly have no grasp of your own memories!"
and my favorite
"If you grind for a year or so, there's eventually a few hard raids in WoW, there's still hardcore content out there!" (thats laughable on two levels, entirely missing the point, and implying that I have to wait a year for a game to become engaging, also implying time spent = skill)
Well in order then.
You have a realistic alternative to your first? The trends we are seeing are driven by market dynamics. It takes millions and millions(of other peoples money...) to create these games. That is one of the major reasons for the risk adversion, and the cookie cutter approach. Of course, its also why so many games fail in the retention area. But seriously, I'd be fascinated to learn of an alternative to either going with the trend, sticking with a fading game or finding another hobby.
Next, we have the "good old days"...
Having played these games since UO, I remember their virtues... But I also remember their short falls. Even as much as I enjoyed Asherons Call, I'd NOT want to go back to the wonders of corpse runs, and lost gear if you couldn't retrieve it. Even if it had a new graphics engine(say UE3 or Cryo2) I'd still not be happy to go back. I also wouldn't want to go back to any of the endless gankfest games that I've played over the years. Thats just not what I'm looking for in a game these days.
Some personal memories do tend to focus on the good, and minimize the bad. Thats simply human nature. Over the years, I've gone back to a few games I've played, and to tell you the truth, none of them are what I'm looking for these days. My expectations and preferences have changed over the years. That reality is what drives various market dynamics.
Finally, the "hard core" argument. After going through molten core WAY too many times, I'm burned out on raiding. I have been for quite some time, so I can't really speak from personal experience on the raiding in ICC and such in WoW these days. But given the resources(Youtube videos, add ons and strat sites) anyone who is willing to put the time in to research a given fight, and then practice it a bit should be able to pull it off if they are properly geared. Most of thats just time spent running randoms and lower raids. But I agree with you that time in doesn't always translate to skill.
Bottom line, if you can find a game you enjoy, I'd stick with it until something better comes along. Given how these things work, thats always possible(given enough time/talent, motivation and money). But that depends on what you are expecting from a game. I look at these games as a hobby. If I stop enjoying them, I'll find another hobby.
i dont know about the rest of you, but im mostly just screwing around until the shadowbane emulator is on its feet.
Shadowbane has everything everyone is always whining about lacking. maybe not so good for the pure PvEers, but who cares about the MMO opinions of people who only want to play games that are ostensibly single player anyhow?
Have you ever wondered what WoW could have been like had it been more like SB? Keep the "major" cities as starting areas and PvPless... but as for the rest of the world, having it open to guild/alliance cities and actual... you know, "warcraft" instead of "gearcraft".
You do remember what happened to SB? If WoW had been like that, I seriously suspect it would have met with pretty much the same fate. At best, it might have been a niche game with massively fewer players than it has today. FFA gankfest games have a rather limited appeal these days. The market dynamics are in the direction of theme parks like WoW. Thats one of the reasons so many people are attempting to copy WoW.
I know this is an idea or thought that has probably circulated around here quite a bit, but I'll go ahead and say it anyways. Isn't there enough room in this market for all types of MMORPGs? Not everyone likes the same type of mmo. It's kinda weird some people feel that all mmrpgs have to be soloable or casual or hardcore or whatever they like. It seems like the industry has been getting over that massive wave that WoW made back in 2004 and is beginning to make niche games.
Isn't there some major league baseball player or ex-player who plans on making a mmo in the same vein as"old school" mmos soon? I think he even hired the lead designer from EQ to work on his new game.
It's all been downhill since Pac-Man. Frogger was a lame attempt at commercialization. They didn't care about the gamer, they just wanted money. And don't get me started on Dig Dug...
Remembering experiences is different from the reality of what actually happened. It's what we call nostalgia.
I can think back to the UO days and say it was the best time of my life, but if I go dig up those old forum posts I made, it tells a very different story.
It's easy to forget the bad and only remember the good. The bottom line is that not much has changed.
I agree with this. The reverse is also true; when I try to recall the games I played for years and years - I have a sense of the "good ol' days" but when I try to remember the events and adentures... I remember the grind and frustration, the time sinks and corpse runs, the social battles and inner-game politics.
So you grinded your house? If nostalgia is player housing, player shops and player cities, I want nostalgia!!! The next innovation of it as SWG was to UO.
I think it's the current bit of PvP that has killed everything for the old timers. I like to play against other players, but not in games that promote ganking or not working together. DAoC was the perfect element of PvP that kept my interest. And it built a community along with the social aspect.
I tried AoC too. Even got the expansion. But I got bored as well. When I played I played on the RPPvP server. It seems that the current PvP games have brought in a selfish nasty group of players. Not the type I would want to socialize with, much less play a game alongside.
I'm going to stick to the PvE games from now on. About the closest I'll get to PvP is either going back to Camelot or resubbing on WAR.
I never have understood what the kick is in being just plain gross in chat channels.
I think it's the current bit of PvP that has killed everything for the old timers. I like to play against other players, but not in games that promote ganking or not working together. DAoC was the perfect element of PvP that kept my interest. And it built a community along with the social aspect.
I tried AoC too. Even got the expansion. But I got bored as well. When I played I played on the RPPvP server. It seems that the current PvP games have brought in a selfish nasty group of players. Not the type I would want to socialize with, much less play a game alongside.
I'm going to stick to the PvE games from now on. About the closest I'll get to PvP is either going back to Camelot or resubbing on WAR.
I never have understood what the kick is in being just plain gross in chat channels.
I used to like PvP when it was just a feature among features in a game. It may be nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but it seems like the gankers were more of a minority in "the good ol' days". Sure, they were there, but I seem to remember there being a sort of unwritten code that there should be a reason to kill the other guy besides for the lulz. Deathmatch-style PvP where the goal is simply killing another toon reduces PvP to the most base level. Sure, there's magic, different types of armor and weapons, and different classes, but it seems nowadays that PvP is nothing more than a glorified Quake 3: Arena with the ultimate goal being a frag count. What's worse is that sort of gameplay attracts the worst kind of players like spilled sugar attracts ants.
I know there are still PvPers out there who play with a bit more respect to the setting and context of the game, but just as the mindless, senseless gankers were a minority in the way-back-when, decent and honorable PvPers are the minority now.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Comments
I see soloing as both contributing to the decline of MMOs and being a result of the decline. While having limited time to play is a valid reason to want to solo, there are others that have to do with the people you group with-- people who tend to make up the majority of the game's population it seems. I like to read quest text. I like to slow it down, plan out what I'm going to do, and try out different ways of approaching a problem. Seems like every time I group it's like GOGOGO! STEAMROLL THE BITCH! DOOD, GET ON VENT, I CAN'T READ LOL!
So we have a chicken and the egg situation here. Do people who solo do it because the game itself encourages it, or is it because the community is such a pile of shit that the game is best enjoyed without it?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Wow....AoC must have changed allot, I thought the game had crafting, scavaging, pvp, but seems pretty limited now if all you can do is kill mobs and lvl, or is this just YOUR playstyle that makes your experiance boring? Just wondering.................
And no, I aint playing AoC, I did though at beta and launch, luckely didn't experiance that much bad things at launch as to what I kept reading from people having such horrible experiances with bugs and other issue's, but overall the game wasn't for me, partially due to it being low fantasy, another part was that I lvl'd far to fast to actually enjoy it.
I am actually replying to this post cause due to me being a VET I look for more then just kill AI mobs in MMORPG, thankfully I havn't changed much as what ever game I play or try, I look for what is out there, never thought MMO vets would look at only kill AI mobs, tbh.
And neither do you. Of course, mine is based on evidence, the MMO marketplace demonstrably changed to reflect the overall desire of the players, that's why there are millions more people playing MMOs today than there were back in the UO/EQ1 days. Unless you're suggesting that these people are all playing games they absolutely hate as part of some vast global conspiracy to piss off vets, you really have no leg to stand on in your accusations.
In fact, it seems to be a very vocal, small group of old-timers who are acting as "toothless crack whores" and cannot get past the "good old days". If modern MMOs don't appeal to you, fine. Go find a different hobby. Get a life. Stop sitting around whining about how good the "good old days" were and how you deserve to be treated special so your nostalgic fantasies can return.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Meh - I played and loved SWG, but that was at another point in my life. Today, no matter what the game, I could never get lost in it the way I could before.
MMOs are essentially escapism.. no offence to anyone, but from personal experience, once your real life reaches a certain level of fulfillment MMOs are simply not that much fun anymore.
i dont know about the rest of you, but im mostly just screwing around until the shadowbane emulator is on its feet.
Shadowbane has everything everyone is always whining about lacking. maybe not so good for the pure PvEers, but who cares about the MMO opinions of people who only want to play games that are ostensibly single player anyhow?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I blame it all on sissyfication. Can MMO"s of today get any easier? There are definitely certain parts of this evolution that I have enjoyed, but now that I look back, my fondest memories came from games that forced me into a larger social setting to deliver various rewards. I currently play LOTRO and as much as I enjoy the environment and the story, there is almost nothing that requires me to be social. I can solo endlessly, kill, level and travel at a whim.
When I first saw this post I was expecting to see yet another "end of days" post that so often seem to populate these boards. As I look back I realize that in some sense its been very true for me. I wont give up hope on the future, but for now it seems that MMO's are evoling closer to action role playing games then anything else. I better get out my joystick (which sadly is already an option for some).
With UO skill maxxing was easy, but the larger game had an inherent social dynamic that was very immersive. They forced you to travel on roads rife with criminal's and visit cities to collect your bounties. You planned/built your house to be near friends or part of a larger community or opened a merchant house on a busy intersection.
In EQ, levelling was hard, travelling could also be hard, crafting was ridiculous at times, corpse recoveries were ugh, and the list goes on. I broke a few keyboards, even a card table once from sheer frustration of playing this game clearly bent on my destruction developed by the devil himself. Yet today I am nostalgic for those epic corpse runs with friends, or the outrageous cooperation that yielded one of those planar bracelets (good lord the insanity with those, devils I tell ye).
Asherons Call and Dark Age of Camelot are the last 2 I remember in this same vein. All in all it seems that the fondest memories I have of any game all stem from socialization on some level.
Today there is so much focus on action, levelling and ease of use. I think WOW has demonstrated that are more gamers who prefer the action grind over social features and thus the model has shifted dramatically and at a great loss to the rest of us. Who will invest in a 2nd coming of UO?
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Have you ever wondered what WoW could have been like had it been more like SB? Keep the "major" cities as starting areas and PvPless... but as for the rest of the world, having it open to guild/alliance cities and actual... you know, "warcraft" instead of "gearcraft".
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yeah, that was fun right up until you had people doing it on purpose, over and over and over, just to piss everyone behind them off. Then it wasn't quite so much fun.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
yeah, i dont think blizzard couldve ruined WoW's potential and more than they did. WoW in its current form never plays as anything more interesting than a demo for a great but uncompleted game.
i was sure that shadowbane style PvP servers would be the next big thing in WoW...but i guess the concept somehow blew right over the heads of the current design team...
If WoW ever released an open buildable server, they would have the entire market. destructable player housing, territory wars, dynamic long term conflict....it would be amazing. and they could implement it so easily!!!!
Ah of course here is your patented universal reply to anyone who shows even a bit of dislike for the current state of MMO gaming, "If you don't like it get a different hobby" Which is a hilarious response considering you said this about MMOs just a few days ago. In your own words from a post on a different topic "The problem is, what I want to play simply doesn't exist and is such a small niche that it never will. I haven't outgrown MMOs, I've just outgrown MMOs that are actually made. What I want and what I'll get are two entirely different things." So as I said before YOU have decided to settle for what they will give you. Or worse you have just thrown up your hands in disgust and decided to haunt these forums pissing on anyone elses optimism like a bitter old maid. Well some of us haven't given up the fight. If that idea displeases you so badly, and considering the amount of arrogant vitriol you spew in almost every post I've read by you, I'm assured that it does, why don't you take your own advice and find some other hobby than posting on game discussion forum? As you so obviously aren't interested in anyones point of view save your own bitter and frustrated viewpoint.
The rest of you guys can continue to listen to this broken record. Me I'm wishing him into the cornfield of ignore.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Well, I don’t play EVE, maybe not yet I don’t know.. but I don’t see their formula of avatars as bad. It’s basically Earth & Beyond style avatars from what I’ve read… and hopefully done better. If like EnB, it’s not something that dumbs down the game. Adding new stuff to a game is not bad (apart from instances), generally isn’t my problem, but taking existing systems and dumbing them down, that is the damnation many of our old-school games took upon themselves to lure in new players. Basically changing the dynamics of the game.
Of course it’s more of a neutral improvement with avatars, doesn’t really add to the game, but doesn’t take away from the core, experience or dynamics of the existing game play. It was pretty good in EnB as I recall, though was never enough for some. But it was never meant to be the core of the game. I think with a lot of ex-SWG players, they probably miss switching from space zones to the star port areas. It actually does belong, but really up to the community and the developer. Fear the ones that come in and say “it’s too haaaard”, they are the death of the game.
Geez, reminds me of SWG, if they spent more time adding to the game rather than changing it constantly, SWG would have wicked depth now... rather than what it is
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
It was challenging because you needed a group to stay alive. Everyone had very different skills, not all heal bots and tanks. We relied on one another to stay alive, and needed to actually learn how to master our abilities, or face not being let into groups. Once instancing and adjusted mob’s came in, it was pretty much over. EQ1 was the only game I really enjoyed pick-up groups, as in time those groups you got to know because they were not moving all over the game world on a daily basis. Instant travel was a bad thing, and instances only divided the players even more. The game world dumbed down.
Same thing happens in rl now. You know all your neighbors well? Most don’t now, not like it was years ago. Everyone moves around, stays in a house for maybe 5 years. I’ve been in my house for 20 years, I have four neighbors that have been in my neighborhood for as long from when we started building here. Rest come and go and you can never keep up. There is a major disconnect in the US with neighborhoods, people moving around all the time. Same with EQ1, and even worse with these area progression instanced theme park games, no community.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Oh man what an amazing idea, Daywolf.
As to Eve, I'm one of the impatient dickweeds who could never get past the learning curve, so I don't feel I could formulate an educated opinion on what the game should and shouldn't have. However funnily enough, one of the things that kept me from even trying Eve out for so long was that you only got to play a spaceship. Which is actually kind of weird because if someone made say a Wing Commander or Mechwarrior MMO where I only got to pilot a ship or a giant Mech, I would play those in a heartbeat.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
You do understand that in some of those cases, they are really talking about post-NGE style gaming. I've noticed a number of posters (other threads) say they played them and were nothing special... then described the dynamics of the game play after these games got changed. Everyone is a vet these days, eh?
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Which is false. I personally don't care for the current state of MMO gaming, but I understand why it is the way it is and I also understand that it has no obligation whatsoever to cater to me, any more than it does to cater to you. I realize that the games I want to play will not be made because I do not represent a significant financial segment of the MMO playing population. I'm not saying that someone doesn't have the right to want something other than what currently exists, certainly you have every right to wish for what you wish for, that doesn't mean that you're entitled to actually get it!
I'm not settling for what they'll give me, I'm not playing any games, which you would know if you actually looked at my sig. I'm just not being a whiny little bitch with an entitlement fantasy, thinking that somehow, they owe it to me to make the game that I want.
You ought to give that a shot.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'm not! I usually have 2 or 3 subs, I already mentioned this. I have one game I play that is a complete sandbox(SL), and that mainly because I’m into indie development with solid content dev skills and programming(lesser). Anything on my current sig list post SWG-NGE is not long-term sub at all. Anything before that point is 2-5 year subs, on multiple running subs.
The games now are FUBAR, they are noob games, only short-term whimsical-hype box sales games for the non-mmo player with fail written all over them. Fine if they want those games, but it's beyond annoying when they expect every game to go that way. So it leaves me with at least 2 open subs, and no games to fill them because they are not what most vets want, including myself. It's not selfish to want diversity, it's only selfish to try to crush what others like and replace it all with what you like alone, telling them to move on etc.. selfish little world we live in.
LOL what are you, 90ft tall??? Maybe you are thinking of growing-out? Like bulbous parts growing forward and back?
Sure, in that case you get lazy and want it all easy, makes sense. lol
lol like STO to get a trial key, needed to go to a fast food joint and buy stuff. Get fat! have fun!! lol
That's about the measure of it lol
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I agree with this. The reverse is also true; when I try to recall the games I played for years and years - I have a sense of the "good ol' days" but when I try to remember the events and adentures... I remember the grind and frustration, the time sinks and corpse runs, the social battles and inner-game politics.
Well in order then.
You have a realistic alternative to your first? The trends we are seeing are driven by market dynamics. It takes millions and millions(of other peoples money...) to create these games. That is one of the major reasons for the risk adversion, and the cookie cutter approach. Of course, its also why so many games fail in the retention area. But seriously, I'd be fascinated to learn of an alternative to either going with the trend, sticking with a fading game or finding another hobby.
Next, we have the "good old days"...
Having played these games since UO, I remember their virtues... But I also remember their short falls. Even as much as I enjoyed Asherons Call, I'd NOT want to go back to the wonders of corpse runs, and lost gear if you couldn't retrieve it. Even if it had a new graphics engine(say UE3 or Cryo2) I'd still not be happy to go back. I also wouldn't want to go back to any of the endless gankfest games that I've played over the years. Thats just not what I'm looking for in a game these days.
Some personal memories do tend to focus on the good, and minimize the bad. Thats simply human nature. Over the years, I've gone back to a few games I've played, and to tell you the truth, none of them are what I'm looking for these days. My expectations and preferences have changed over the years. That reality is what drives various market dynamics.
Finally, the "hard core" argument. After going through molten core WAY too many times, I'm burned out on raiding. I have been for quite some time, so I can't really speak from personal experience on the raiding in ICC and such in WoW these days. But given the resources(Youtube videos, add ons and strat sites) anyone who is willing to put the time in to research a given fight, and then practice it a bit should be able to pull it off if they are properly geared. Most of thats just time spent running randoms and lower raids. But I agree with you that time in doesn't always translate to skill.
Bottom line, if you can find a game you enjoy, I'd stick with it until something better comes along. Given how these things work, thats always possible(given enough time/talent, motivation and money). But that depends on what you are expecting from a game. I look at these games as a hobby. If I stop enjoying them, I'll find another hobby.
You do remember what happened to SB? If WoW had been like that, I seriously suspect it would have met with pretty much the same fate. At best, it might have been a niche game with massively fewer players than it has today. FFA gankfest games have a rather limited appeal these days. The market dynamics are in the direction of theme parks like WoW. Thats one of the reasons so many people are attempting to copy WoW.
I know this is an idea or thought that has probably circulated around here quite a bit, but I'll go ahead and say it anyways. Isn't there enough room in this market for all types of MMORPGs? Not everyone likes the same type of mmo. It's kinda weird some people feel that all mmrpgs have to be soloable or casual or hardcore or whatever they like. It seems like the industry has been getting over that massive wave that WoW made back in 2004 and is beginning to make niche games.
Isn't there some major league baseball player or ex-player who plans on making a mmo in the same vein as"old school" mmos soon? I think he even hired the lead designer from EQ to work on his new game.
It really is over for MOST of us GAMING vets...
It's all been downhill since Pac-Man. Frogger was a lame attempt at commercialization. They didn't care about the gamer, they just wanted money. And don't get me started on Dig Dug...
So you grinded your house? If nostalgia is player housing, player shops and player cities, I want nostalgia!!! The next innovation of it as SWG was to UO.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I think it's the current bit of PvP that has killed everything for the old timers. I like to play against other players, but not in games that promote ganking or not working together. DAoC was the perfect element of PvP that kept my interest. And it built a community along with the social aspect.
I tried AoC too. Even got the expansion. But I got bored as well. When I played I played on the RPPvP server. It seems that the current PvP games have brought in a selfish nasty group of players. Not the type I would want to socialize with, much less play a game alongside.
I'm going to stick to the PvE games from now on. About the closest I'll get to PvP is either going back to Camelot or resubbing on WAR.
I never have understood what the kick is in being just plain gross in chat channels.
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I used to like PvP when it was just a feature among features in a game. It may be nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but it seems like the gankers were more of a minority in "the good ol' days". Sure, they were there, but I seem to remember there being a sort of unwritten code that there should be a reason to kill the other guy besides for the lulz. Deathmatch-style PvP where the goal is simply killing another toon reduces PvP to the most base level. Sure, there's magic, different types of armor and weapons, and different classes, but it seems nowadays that PvP is nothing more than a glorified Quake 3: Arena with the ultimate goal being a frag count. What's worse is that sort of gameplay attracts the worst kind of players like spilled sugar attracts ants.
I know there are still PvPers out there who play with a bit more respect to the setting and context of the game, but just as the mindless, senseless gankers were a minority in the way-back-when, decent and honorable PvPers are the minority now.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous