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MMO's haven't changed.

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  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,667

    OP asked what's different about them, then listed 3 ways they are similar as if to show that there are virtually unnoticable differences between mmos. 

     

    No one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    Originally posted by JimmacNo one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

    Wrong, the only difference is graphics, and I don't care about that. The reason I had a sub to both UO and EQ1 was because they were very different. Of course UO then became like EQ so I ended my sub (AoS item based) but I had SWG that was still very different than EQ1. Then of course EQ1 started churning out instances with every expansion, all kinds of things that made it like a CRPG, so I quit playing EQ1.



    But I still had SWG, and that was different from EnB :D But EnB was run like a cheap f2p without the f, it never got improved and so it died, like purposely killed from launch by EA. But I had SWG! Woohoo... but then they released NGE to get people like you to play, and you didn't, while the existing players left because it became too stupid. There was EQ2, but it was more of the bad things EQ1 did. DAoC went through changes too, much like EQ1 did so it lost subs and didn’t get me to play then.



    Now everything is like that, and there exist little to no difference in games. Anything new is the same formula, but with different eye candy.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • pye088jpye088j Member Posts: 228



    Originally posted by pye088j



     

    Question is: Do we really know what we want?

    Vets know what they want. Just like before, a veriety of games for diffent players, not an all in one game same as the next game. Worked before. Do you know what you want? Forget the "we".

    Variety is all good and all but mmo´s these days cost too much to aim for a smaller niche userbase. I don´t think we can expekt to have that much variety that many would like. The ones that can afford to take chances opts not to, in order to try and bring the millions in instead of a niche crowd. 

    What I want? I want a game that brings me in, gives me meaningful tasks and is fun to play. I couldn´t care less what setting it´s in or what combat mechanic it uses. Give me options and choices instead.

     

    Why I said "Do we really know what we want?" was aimed towards all the wishes i´ve seen here on the forums that some games delivered on but still the playerbase left them.

    All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Originally posted by JimmacNo one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

    Wrong, the only difference is graphics, and I don't care about that. The reason I had a sub to both UO and EQ1 was because they were very different. Of course UO then became like EQ so I ended my sub (AoS item based) but I had SWG that was still very different than EQ1. Then of course EQ1 started churning out instances with every expansion, all kinds of things that made it like a CRPG, so I quit playing EQ1.



    But I still had SWG, and that was different from EnB :D But EnB was run like a cheap f2p without the f, it never got improved and so it died, like purposely killed from launch by EA. But I had SWG! Woohoo... but then they released NGE to get people like you to play, and you didn't, while the existing players left because it became too stupid. There was EQ2, but it was more of the bad things EQ1 did. DAoC went through changes too, much like EQ1 did so it lost subs and didn’t get me to play then.



    Now everything is like that, and there exist little to no difference in games. Anything new is the same formula, but with different eye candy.

     Darkfall

    EVE

    Pirates of the Burning Sea

    Puzzle Pirates

    World of Warcraft

     

    Those games are fundamentally different. Some are better constructed than others but they are not the same. There is no question in mind that any of them could have been successful if they were equally well made. Some have a broader appeal than others but that's another issue.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • KorhindiKorhindi Member CommonPosts: 395

    Since we are comparig MMO's to cars, I think the issue is less about model year and more about the actual drive.  The fact is, a well running Model T will get you from point A to point B.  Ditto the Lexus.  Most prefer the Lexus (or some modern make) but there are many afficienados who prefer older cars and drive them around.

     

    The fact is, whether you are in a Lexus or in an old Desoto, a trip across Kansas is boring.

     

    The more apt comparison of EQ vs. WoW is more like Route 66 versus the modern Interstate system.

     

    In the days before interstate travel, the highways were jumbled, disorganized and went through every podunk town.  This made travel very slow.  However, it also exposed travelers to many ecclectic sights.  The roads were lined with quaint diners, antique shops, graveyards, places of historic interest... often just plain strange things that were unique to each town that conveyed that particular community's character and made the trip an adventure.  It was a slow go, but there never was a shortage of things to see and do.

     

    Sadly, for these towns, the need for speed made the Interstate a necessity.  The interstate bypassed most of these towns and they pretty much died.  Now you can drive through most states in a matter of hours.  It is effecient and comfortable.  The problem is that you really don't see much.  And what stops and sights there are tend to be homogenized and formulaic:  Prefabbed rest stops, Franchise food places like McDonalds, Malls, Suburbs, Gas Stations and lots of trafic.

     

    So, which is better?  The Interstate or the old way?  Well, if your goal is simply to get to your destination, then a vote for the Interstate is the no-brainer choice.  It is the choice for the vast majority of travelers.  However, there are many folks who miss the old days.  They miss the sights, the landscapes and the chance to see something unexpected around the next turn.  

     

    Sadly, one cannot simply just say, "Well don't take the Interstate..." because much of those places have died due to the change in times, and many back roads these days just simply lead to someone's house as sprawl and urban flight dot the countryside in prefab and lot houses.  Sure, some of the old places remain, but they are becoming increasingly rare.

     

    I Think MMO's have become like this.  As you wiz across Kansas in smooth, air conditioned luxury, or, say, Azeroth or Hyboria, Aion and such, you really don't see much, and what you do see is the same boring things.  Just replace gas stations, rest stops and suburbs with wandering mobs, static npcs and uninspired, prefabbed instances.  And, should you get off the beaten path, what do you see?  Nothing but empty space or more of the same (usually wandering mobs).

     

    Sure, you get to your destination faster (endgame), but, may I ask, did you actually see something interesting during the journey?

  • TrioxicTrioxic Member Posts: 65

    The procedural reflexive response to such changes are many, not few, yes the basics have remained the same, but the shift from universal mmorpg to mspopc gaming is significant and alarming for traditional mmorpg players. The shift is creating a rift in the community. Many people I know are creating private servers with out the latest updates to get back to the days where people played together as friends, communities, and had vibrant economies. These days its gold / credit farmers, the give me now crowd and the ever and all ways present whiners that don't get what they want because the game is to hard for some reason or another. The industry wants to maximize its monetary gains but at sacrifice of long term subs. This get the money and run mentality has corrupted the industry and left it weak and stupid. I don't want to log into a game and feel my IQ dropping. We as a community if we want some thing we will have to make it our selves and if we can't you better start speaking up and stop letting the cry babies and whiners run the industry as a whole... my two cents. 

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by Daywolf


    Originally posted by JimmacNo one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

    Wrong, the only difference is graphics, and I don't care about that. The reason I had a sub to both UO and EQ1 was because they were very different. Of course UO then became like EQ so I ended my sub (AoS item based) but I had SWG that was still very different than EQ1. Then of course EQ1 started churning out instances with every expansion, all kinds of things that made it like a CRPG, so I quit playing EQ1.



    But I still had SWG, and that was different from EnB :D But EnB was run like a cheap f2p without the f, it never got improved and so it died, like purposely killed from launch by EA. But I had SWG! Woohoo... but then they released NGE to get people like you to play, and you didn't, while the existing players left because it became too stupid. There was EQ2, but it was more of the bad things EQ1 did. DAoC went through changes too, much like EQ1 did so it lost subs and didn’t get me to play then.



    Now everything is like that, and there exist little to no difference in games. Anything new is the same formula, but with different eye candy.

     Darkfall

    EVE

    Pirates of the Burning Sea

    Puzzle Pirates

    World of Warcraft

     

    Those games are fundamentally different. Some are better constructed than others but they are not the same. There is no question in mind that any of them could have been successful if they were equally well made. Some have a broader appeal than others but that's another issue.

    I didn’t say all. I give EVE credit, but then it’s an indie game and not a part of the mass market plot.

    WoW is EQ2 on steroids. Most new games are WoW clones more or less.

    PotBS is PvP centric (like EVE), and totally changed it’s idea of being a historical mmo to fantasy like PotC.

    Puzzle Pirates?? Who cares?

    How many mmo games on the mmo market now? That’s one hell of a list you gots goin there...

    Where is the multitude of pre-NGE clones? But with an improvement on those systems rather than complete change?

     

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • 0tter0tter Member UncommonPosts: 226

    Holy cow, Ray.  I think you hit a nerve.

  • raystantzraystantz Final Fantasy XI CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,237

    Darkfall and EVE are two games that I would consider are the "closest" to what the old games used to be like. 

    Games that didn't lead you around quest to quest or area to area. You were free to roam, but suffer the consequences of doing so...

    But, even those games don't give me the same feeling, because the people who are playing them.. are the same ones playing WoW, and Lotro, and whatever else. Its still this new generation of "OMG STATS, GEAR, METAGAMING, GEARSCORE".

    The people in Darkfall are the biggest example. They constantly complain about how long it takes to become "PVP" ready. Why are you even worried about that? Just explore! adventure! fight off the hordes of bad guys.

    Its like you guys think that knights back in the day may have had this conversation.

    Frank: Hey, Sir Charles are you ready to battle the evil Giant Tortoise?

    Sir Charles: Do you know the strat?

    Frank: Yeah, I looked it up on Castletube. Whats your gearscore?

    Sir Charles: 900

    Frank: What? You can't be serious.. Your just gonna have to go back to the castle and train.

    I was playing WoW earlier, and the entire conversation in the group I was in boiled down to this..

    player 1: Rdy?

    Player 2: k

    player 3: I've never done this instance.

    me: Hey guys, whats up?

    Player1: Mage, water plz.

    me: umm. ok.

    Player 2: yeah water plz mage.

    ..... a bit later.....

    Player 1: player1 : 40000dps

                     player 2: 30000dps

                     player 3: 20000dps... etc.

    Player2: OMG I did 3k dps that last battle how do I only have 30000dps WTF?

    Player1: whats your gearscore?

    Player4: I'm a twink.

    me: You know those things aren't all that accurate.

    Player5: OMG, teh tank is doing more damage that everyone else. you guys suck.

    Player1: I want this orange sword. <sword of orange>

    Player2: where does that drop?

    Player1: MC

     

    I mean, seriously.. I never had these kinds of conversations back in the day. We didn't roleplay, but we were still out "adventuring"  whats funny is that these people don't realize that all they are doing is playing a very elaborate math game. 

    www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules

    Currently playing:

    FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA. 

  • raystantzraystantz Final Fantasy XI CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,237

    Originally posted by Korhindi

    Since we are comparig MMO's to cars, I think the issue is less about model year and more about the actual drive.  The fact is, a well running Model T will get you from point A to point B.  Ditto the Lexus.  Most prefer the Lexus (or some modern make) but there are many afficienados who prefer older cars and drive them around.

     

    The fact is, whether you are in a Lexus or in an old Desoto, a trip across Kansas is boring.

     

    The more apt comparison of EQ vs. WoW is more like Route 66 versus the modern Interstate system.

     

    In the days before interstate travel, the highways were jumbled, disorganized and went through every podunk town.  This made travel very slow.  However, it also exposed travelers to many ecclectic sights.  The roads were lined with quaint diners, antique shops, graveyards, places of historic interest... often just plain strange things that were unique to each town that conveyed that particular community's character and made the trip an adventure.  It was a slow go, but there never was a shortage of things to see and do.

     

    Sadly, for these towns, the need for speed made the Interstate a necessity.  The interstate bypassed most of these towns and they pretty much died.  Now you can drive through most states in a matter of hours.  It is effecient and comfortable.  The problem is that you really don't see much.  And what stops and sights there are tend to be homogenized and formulaic:  Prefabbed rest stops, Franchise food places like McDonalds, Malls, Suburbs, Gas Stations and lots of trafic.

     

    So, which is better?  The Interstate or the old way?  Well, if your goal is simply to get to your destination, then a vote for the Interstate is the no-brainer choice.  It is the choice for the vast majority of travelers.  However, there are many folks who miss the old days.  They miss the sights, the landscapes and the chance to see something unexpected around the next turn.  

     

    Sadly, one cannot simply just say, "Well don't take the Interstate..." because much of those places have died due to the change in times, and many back roads these days just simply lead to someone's house as sprawl and urban flight dot the countryside in prefab and lot houses.  Sure, some of the old places remain, but they are becoming increasingly rare.

     

    I Think MMO's have become like this.  As you wiz across Kansas in smooth, air conditioned luxury, or, say, Azeroth or Hyboria, Aion and such, you really don't see much, and what you do see is the same boring things.  Just replace gas stations, rest stops and suburbs with wandering mobs, static npcs and uninspired, prefabbed instances.  And, should you get off the beaten path, what do you see?  Nothing but empty space or more of the same (usually wandering mobs).

     

    Sure, you get to your destination faster (endgame), but, may I ask, did you actually see something interesting during the journey?

    if you gave me the choice between a new Ford Mustang or a 1979 Chevy Nova, I'd take the Nova.. even if it needed some work. 

    www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules

    Currently playing:

    FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA. 

  • ZorgoZorgo Member UncommonPosts: 2,254

    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Originally posted by zymurgeist


    Originally posted by Daywolf


    Originally posted by JimmacNo one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

    Wrong, the only difference is graphics, and I don't care about that. The reason I had a sub to both UO and EQ1 was because they were very different. Of course UO then became like EQ so I ended my sub (AoS item based) but I had SWG that was still very different than EQ1. Then of course EQ1 started churning out instances with every expansion, all kinds of things that made it like a CRPG, so I quit playing EQ1.



    But I still had SWG, and that was different from EnB :D But EnB was run like a cheap f2p without the f, it never got improved and so it died, like purposely killed from launch by EA. But I had SWG! Woohoo... but then they released NGE to get people like you to play, and you didn't, while the existing players left because it became too stupid. There was EQ2, but it was more of the bad things EQ1 did. DAoC went through changes too, much like EQ1 did so it lost subs and didn’t get me to play then.



    Now everything is like that, and there exist little to no difference in games. Anything new is the same formula, but with different eye candy.

     Darkfall

    EVE

    Pirates of the Burning Sea

    Puzzle Pirates

    World of Warcraft

     

    Those games are fundamentally different. Some are better constructed than others but they are not the same. There is no question in mind that any of them could have been successful if they were equally well made. Some have a broader appeal than others but that's another issue.

    I didn’t say all. I give EVE credit, but then it’s an indie game and not a part of the mass market plot.

    WoW is EQ2 on steroids. Most new games are WoW clones more or less.

    PotBS is PvP centric (like EVE), and totally changed it’s idea of being a historical mmo to fantasy like PotC.

    Puzzle Pirates?? Who cares?

    How many mmo games on the mmo market now? That’s one hell of a list you gots goin there...

    Where is the multitude of pre-NGE clones? But with an improvement on those systems rather than complete change?

     

    Uh.....yeah you did.

  • KorhindiKorhindi Member CommonPosts: 395

    Originally posted by raystantz

    Originally posted by Korhindi

     

    if you gave me the choice between a new Ford Mustang or a 1979 Chevy Nova, I'd take the Nova.. even if it needed some work. 

    I hear you.

     

    My first car was a '77 Ford Granada with a 351 Cleveland engine in it.  It looked like a grandma's car but wow was it fast and it ran great.  It was easy to maintain too.

     

    For me, more important than the car itself, was all the trips I made in it.  Me and my buddies covered half the USA in that beast.

     

    Good times.

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    Originally posted by Zorgo

    Originally posted by Daywolf


    Originally posted by zymurgeist


    Originally posted by Daywolf


    Originally posted by JimmacNo one is saying that mmos don't have similarities. All MMOs will have similarities. What some people are upset about is the differences. Concerning those differences ONLY, those people like mmos a certain way, but the new crop of mmos are different in those ways. If you honestly don't see the differences between mmos then you are just being prejudiced. 

    Wrong, the only difference is graphics, and I don't care about that. The reason I had a sub to both UO and EQ1 was because they were very different. Of course UO then became like EQ so I ended my sub (AoS item based) but I had SWG that was still very different than EQ1. Then of course EQ1 started churning out instances with every expansion, all kinds of things that made it like a CRPG, so I quit playing EQ1.



    But I still had SWG, and that was different from EnB :D But EnB was run like a cheap f2p without the f, it never got improved and so it died, like purposely killed from launch by EA. But I had SWG! Woohoo... but then they released NGE to get people like you to play, and you didn't, while the existing players left because it became too stupid. There was EQ2, but it was more of the bad things EQ1 did. DAoC went through changes too, much like EQ1 did so it lost subs and didn’t get me to play then.



    Now everything is like that, and there exist little to no difference in games. Anything new is the same formula, but with different eye candy.

     Darkfall

    EVE

    Pirates of the Burning Sea

    Puzzle Pirates

    World of Warcraft

     

    Those games are fundamentally different. Some are better constructed than others but they are not the same. There is no question in mind that any of them could have been successful if they were equally well made. Some have a broader appeal than others but that's another issue.

    I didn’t say all. I give EVE credit, but then it’s an indie game and not a part of the mass market plot.

    WoW is EQ2 on steroids. Most new games are WoW clones more or less.

    PotBS is PvP centric (like EVE), and totally changed it’s idea of being a historical mmo to fantasy like PotC.

    Puzzle Pirates?? Who cares?

    How many mmo games on the mmo market now? That’s one hell of a list you gots goin there...

    Where is the multitude of pre-NGE clones? But with an improvement on those systems rather than complete change?

     

    Uh.....yeah you did.

    Again, EVE is an indie game. "Everything" AAA's yes. Indies are not governed by marketeering data forced on by the publisher/investor. The only one I gave credit was EVE, which is indie. So not "everything" in that respect, and not "all" in all respects. I’m quite fond of the indie movement, so I don’t lump it in with everything, as it’s not. We need about a dozen more CCP's, all doing their own thing.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • raystantzraystantz Final Fantasy XI CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,237

    EVE and the indie market is like the cool undeground music scene, where noone else has ever heard of the band.

    WoW and the AAA market is like Nickelback.

    www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules

    Currently playing:

    FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA. 

  • SidraketSidraket Member Posts: 79

    First of all, WoW was just an EQ clone, so of course they will share some things in common.

    Secondly, there is still a huge difference between how they handle the basic things they have in common.

     

    Overall OP is either a troll or never actually played an older mmo.

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    Originally posted by raystantz

    EVE and the indie market is like the cool undeground music scene, where noone else has ever heard of the band.

    WoW and the AAA market is like Nickelback.

    It's the same market, same industry. Go into say Target, half the titles are indie. CCP is indie and one of the mmo leaders in the West. Read their charter/mission. Look at SOE's mission... more like "We create milkage revenue and kill game worlds based on market data then have lazy noob developers rip off our bad ideas". AAA is subject to higher criticism.

     

    As for Darkfall, it's open PvP centric. If you notice my sig, most of the classic games that are PvP centric are factional PvP. UO, SWG, PlanetSide, WWII Online etc. Even in fps's I hardly play free-for-all, but more like Clan arena and CTF which are team based. Fine that people like that, but not my thing, it's often not group oriented.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

     






    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Again, EVE is an indie game. "Everything" AAA's yes. Indies are not governed by marketeering data forced on by the publisher/investor. The only one I gave credit was EVE, which is indie. So not "everything" in that respect, and not "all" in all respects. I’m quite fond of the indie movement, so I don’t lump it in with everything, as it’s not. We need about a dozen more CCP's, all doing their own thing.



     

    If anything indie games are even more at the whim of publishers and investors because they have to sell their games to publishers and investors before they can even fund production. People forget EVE was published by Simon and Schuster INC. EVE was a "AAA" MMO. That was before the label existed. Funcom is as much an indie developer in the way they operate as CCP. But they produced a "AAA" MMORPG that is in many ways very different from WoW or EQ. The system requirements alone made it a niche game but it had a big budget and a very well known IP. These generalizations you're using just dont hold up to rigorous examination. The only sure thing is if you make a crap game people won't play it and If you have a poor launch you'll probably never recover from it completely.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     






    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Again, EVE is an indie game. "Everything" AAA's yes. Indies are not governed by marketeering data forced on by the publisher/investor. The only one I gave credit was EVE, which is indie. So not "everything" in that respect, and not "all" in all respects. I’m quite fond of the indie movement, so I don’t lump it in with everything, as it’s not. We need about a dozen more CCP's, all doing their own thing.




     

    If anything indie games are even more at the whim of publishers and investors because they have to sell their games to publishers and investors before they can even fund production. People forget EVE was published by Simon and Schuster INC. EVE was a "AAA" MMO. That was before the label existed. Funcom is as much an indie developer in the way they operate as CCP. But they produced a "AAA" MMORPG that is in many ways very different from WoW or EQ. The system requirements alone made it a niche game but it had a big budget and a very well known IP. These generalizations you're using just dont hold up to rigorous examination. The only sure thing is if you make a crap game people won't play it and If you have a poor launch you'll probably never recover from it completely.

    They generated money from sales of a desktop game. They developed with 2mil in funds, some of which they borrowed from the bank. S&S published for them, but CCP re-acquired the publishing rights.



    So you are saying every vet should be playing EVE? Which is still an indie game so I don’t stick with the same high required standards and come down heavy on them, why I left it out of the everything comment (all you want to argue about now). I don’t buy the 1 game for all attitude either. That is why all your new games are alike, you guys are very happy with that. So it all becomes even deader than the CRPG industry has been for years. So argue awaaay, it's all you have.

     

    So what is the score? everything and all, all and everything, what is your next slight of hand arguement to the actual topic?

     

    Where is the latest and greatest housing system, eh? Player established cities? Player shop buildings? Oh wait, that's right, can't do that in an instanced soloist world as they are. Oh shucks. Maybe in them open PvP centric games? Then they too can be the same :(

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • midmagicmidmagic Member Posts: 614

    Originally posted by raystantz

    Really, whats Different about them?

    Lets analyze.

    Lets take the original EQ.

    - Level to the level cap

    - Kill AI controlled monsters

    - Kill AI controlled bosses

    Lets take WoW and every game after it.

    - Level to the level cap

    - Kill AI controlled monsters

    - Kill AI controlled bosses

     

    Sounds the same to me..

    Whats changed is the people who play them. No longer is it just uber nerds who pretend to be knights and wizards. MMO's are now played by every walk of life and this is both good and bad. But, the games themselves are about the same as they have always been.

    This is easy. From my point of view there have been two big changes. The first, the metagame, in particular the gear grind.

    Now a player must put in X number of hours in order to maintain a level of gear to be able to participate with the main player base. In early eq a player needed to put in a much less significant Y number of hours to be able to participate with the main player base (this changed in Velious when "tiers" to content were introduced resulting in strict min gear requirements). Then, the thing that bothers me the most. Oh look its been 3-6 months. Grind every bit of equipment all over again, we released a new tier.

    The second, the pace of the game. For a while, heavy social interaction while playing was pretty much out due to significantly faster pace of the games. Then came along the voice chat apps that helped out quite a bit and speedier internet connections so we could actually use them which helps out here.

    Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    "MMO's haven't changed. " is true for MOST MMOs, but look at the stuff on the Horizon.  its not changing fast enough IMO, but its clearly making alot of changes finally.

     

    just a tiny list of currently LIVE anomalies (there's much much more in the pipeline):

    Atlantica Online

    Darkfall

    Valkyrie Skye

    APB (well, its PRACTICALLY live)

    Mortal Online

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    Corpus Callosum    

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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     






    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Again, EVE is an indie game. "Everything" AAA's yes. Indies are not governed by marketeering data forced on by the publisher/investor. The only one I gave credit was EVE, which is indie. So not "everything" in that respect, and not "all" in all respects. I’m quite fond of the indie movement, so I don’t lump it in with everything, as it’s not. We need about a dozen more CCP's, all doing their own thing.




     

    If anything indie games are even more at the whim of publishers and investors because they have to sell their games to publishers and investors before they can even fund production. People forget EVE was published by Simon and Schuster INC. EVE was a "AAA" MMO. That was before the label existed. Funcom is as much an indie developer in the way they operate as CCP. But they produced a "AAA" MMORPG that is in many ways very different from WoW or EQ. The system requirements alone made it a niche game but it had a big budget and a very well known IP. These generalizations you're using just dont hold up to rigorous examination. The only sure thing is if you make a crap game people won't play it and If you have a poor launch you'll probably never recover from it completely.

    They generated money from sales of a desktop game. They developed with 2mil in funds, some of which they borrowed from the bank. S&S published for them, but CCP re-acquired the publishing rights.



    So you are saying every vet should be playing EVE? Which is still an indie game so I don’t stick with the same high required standards and come down heavy on them, why I left it out of the everything comment (all you want to argue about now). I don’t buy the 1 game for all attitude either. That is why all your new games are alike, you guys are very happy with that. So it all becomes even deader than the CRPG industry has been for years. So argue awaaay, it's all you have.

     

    So what is the score? everything and all, all and everything, what is your next slight of hand arguement to the actual topic?

     

    Where is the latest and greatest housing system, eh? Player established cities? Player shop buildings? Oh wait, that's right, can't do that in an instanced soloist world as they are. Oh shucks. Maybe in them open PvP centric games? Then they too can be the same :(

     Yes Darkfall has both player established cities and player shop buildings. No both of those things can certainly be done in instanced worlds. Instancing has nothing to do with it. You need to re-examine your basic assumptions instead of being defensive. Not all games are the same. That's just nonsense. Games have changed and to say otherwise is untrue. No one denies the market has changed. Expectations have changed and in some ways become unrealistic. There are actually some good games out there and the potential to make more is very real. Vets aren't all the same and they don't all like the same things. You corrected tourself about the everything comment. I know what you meant but you're still wrong. There's no great divide between indie and big budget games. There's just well made games and poorly made games. These days we're getting a lot of poorly made games.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by raystantz

    Really, whats Different about them?

    Lets analyze.

    Lets take the original EQ.

    - Level to the level cap

    - Kill AI controlled monsters

    - Kill AI controlled bosses

    Lets take WoW and every game after it.

    - Level to the level cap

    - Kill AI controlled monsters

    - Kill AI controlled bosses

     

    Sounds the same to me..

    Whats changed is the people who play them. No longer is it just uber nerds who pretend to be knights and wizards. MMO's are now played by every walk of life and this is both good and bad. But, the games themselves are about the same as they have always been.

    Lets look at how cars are all exactly the same

    Ford Model T

    Engine burns petroleum products to provide motive power

    Rolls on the ground on balloon tires.

    Has a steering wheel to permit directional control.

    Boeing 777 jet

    Engine burns petroleum products to provide motive power

    Rolls on the ground on balloon tires.

    Has a steering wheel to permit directional control.

     

    You see they're exactly the same! Transportation hasn't changed since 1915!

    /sarcasm

     

     

     

    Agree. The OP is over simplified and left out a lot of features that distinguish different games.

    image

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,304

    Well ... first of all, MMOs have changed.

    For example, today they often lack challenge and they are too much alike. An example for a not that good change.

    Second of all, its really good that MMOs change.

    Otherwise it would be extremely boring to play them after a while ... even more than it is with changes.

    Third of all, change is not a value in itself - what we need is games that lead to a good fun gameplay.

    That leads to having a vision, but also to a myriad of details. User friendly interface, decent game stability and online support, a decent depth and complexity, but also elegance in the rulesystem, decent graphics and other standard game features, decent challenge and variance in the quests and opponents and other challenges, decent amount of content, decent number of fellow gamers and not too hard to find groups and not too awful community, and finally a certain inner cooperation of all these aspects to a consistent gaming experience, and on top of all that something different that gives the game in question an unique charm so you actually feel this is a game like none else.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Sadly, the over simplification that the OP has exhibited, speaks to the simpleton minds of many people playing MMOs these days, and therefore, yes....MMOs have changed because they have had to cater to the lowest common denominator as far as intellect is concerned.

     

    Yes, of course the players have changed, but a good amount of that change, outside of natural life circumstance, has come from the introduction of MMOs that cater to "casual players," dumbing down the content to the point that thinking is pretty much an optional activity. That doesn't tend to attract the most interesting people to spend time with in a game...at least not for me.

     

    If that sounds like circular reasoning....well....it is.  MMOs are stuck in a cyclical rut.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

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