Wow... thanks AgentSmith for posting this. Seeing the details really changed my mind. I was kinda neutral, tending to positive about the new model. But now seeing the realities, how limited the F2P gameplay is... wow. I am still out of words. What a scam. How dare they to call THIS free to play? Thats outright lies!... Quite a disappiontment.
Well, I am not sure it is all that bad. But yeah - the whole free to play name is ridiculous as it obviously is not free to play or these companies would go belly up. I think what I am trying to warn people about is not the dishonesty of the free to play moniker though so much as the way the F2P cash shop will drive out the subscription as an all access pass over time. Sure, if tons and tons of the players still subscribe then it will likely remain largely as it is now that you get what you get now (all access). But it is inevitable that over time the F2P model pushes out the subscription and things get developed and steered to the cash shop because the amount of 'free' players will overwhelm the sub players in short order. So in one respect the hybrid model is a fine idea, it is just that in practice it will give way over time to the F2P because the F2P draws more players and more revenue as people pay more for the game cut up in smaller peices. As that happens, over time, things that are new will go straight to the cash shop rather than be included in the subscription (i.e. classes, items, etc) and design will go the route of including more and more need to buy from the cash shop which will affect free and sub players alike.
The simple point being that so long as the description of what you get with a sub is not 'everything' then rest assured that they are clearly saying that you are not getting everything and that as the game matures as F2P hybrid more and more things will go to the cash shop and design will support that by making use of the cash shop more and more necessary. I mean even the idea of all access goes away day 1 of this new model as there currently is no cash shop, no points to buy game relevent things - so a sub (lifetime or other) will not give you anything but a trivial amount of points for that new and important system which will be the biggest driver of revenue for the F2P part of things.
I mean think about it - the point of the free-to-play part of the game is not simply to get people to subscribe, if it where they there would be no cash shop save for buying a months worth of access to this or that game element. The F2P side of things is a one time buy - so even if you pay more for all the 'parts' of the game the revenue doesn't cover you playing for long compared to a traditional buy the box and pay a sub model. F2P has to have people reguarly needing/wanting things on the cash shop (things mind you not access to areas/elements - think pots, gear, etc). Sales of these things are what provides the ongoing revenue and so the game HAS to be remade to make a need for their purchase. And even if you buy a sub, or are a lifer, the points you get to spend each month on these things will nowhere near approach what is offered either in terms of the need things or the want things. So even paying subscribers or paid lifers will find in short order that there are need/want items that require cash to get and that such things that are available in game through play will, over time, take more and more play to get as if it doesn't take more and more play to get said things then people will just play to get them and the cash shop won't make any money.
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
Can you provide links to information that supports that?
Here's a link to the items available in the store and the point values of them:
VIPs get 500 points a month to spend however they want.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
Can you provide links to information that supports that?
Here's a link to the items available in the store and the point values of them:
VIPs get 500 points a month to spend however they want.
How much more clear can I make it - even as a VIP with the points you get the cash shop items you would have gotten before included are pricey and out of reach. Tomes at 2495 points that now, coincidently, drop far more rarely in game - classes that where included before now costing more than the point included in a month's VIP access. It is pretty obvious if you just look and this is just a couple things, it doesn't included the smaller and less subtle things like cash getting you in dungeon rez's and pots, the bonus XP and other such things cash get you. Face it, the game changes with the F2P element and it becomes a cat and mouse of the DEVs designing ways to get people to spend in the cash shop and that doesn't stop with VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
Look, just do the math. 500 points cost, RMT wise, about $6 and change. So either they are designing the game to need more than half as less money per player or they are absolutely expecting people to need/want to spend more than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
Can you provide links to information that supports that?
Here's a link to the items available in the store and the point values of them:
VIPs get 500 points a month to spend however they want.
How much more clear can I make it - even as a VIP with the points you get the cash shop items you would have gotten before included are pricey and out of reach. Tomes at 2495 points that now, coincidently, drop far more rarely in game - classes that where included before now costing more than the point included in a month's VIP access. It is pretty obvious if you just look and this is just a couple things, it doesn't included the smaller and less subtle things like cash getting you in dungeon rez's and pots, the bonus XP and other such things cash get you. Face it, the game changes with the F2P element and it becomes a cat and mouse of the DEVs designing ways to get people to spend in the cash shop and that doesn't stop with VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
I think your point is well taken regarding the "free" Turbine Points in relation to how much things are in the store.
I have no doubt that there is someone at Turbine who figured out some sort of balance between what will be granted vs what items cost. The idea is probably to give the VIP customer "just" enought incentive to buy a small amount of points to top it off.
Of course a limit is required no? I mean, if the VIP players got 5000 points per month then they would be rolling in essentially "free" items and that would of course screw any type of in game economy. Here we have people making potions and dyes and it matters not because they would be in abundance for free with monthly points.
so it makes perfect and complete sense to limit how many points a player gets per month.
My only answer is, using the ddo example, wait for two months and THEN you get to buy the Drow Race unlock. Given that I played DDO for more than two months and never unlocked the Drow race, it seems a reasonable amount of time to wait.
This is going to come down to people (myself inlcuded) being very mindful of how they play and what they spend.
There is a slippery slope but my experience in life has taught me that wearing the right shoes pretty much makes walking on a slippery slope all the more safe.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I for one am looking forward to LOTRO going F2P. I have LS but lets fac eit development for LOTRO has pretty much stopped. One of the Turbine dudes said we now have a better chance of getting to Morder now!!!
THE SECRET WORLD - PAY ONCE PLAY FOREVER - Give it a go!
I think your point is well taken regarding the "free" Turbine Points in relation to how much things are in the store.
I have no doubt that there is someone at Turbine who figured out some sort of balance between what will be granted vs what items cost. The idea is probably to give the VIP customer "just" enought incentive to buy a small amount of points to top it off.
Of course a limit is required no? I mean, if the VIP players got 5000 points per month then they would be rolling in essentially "free" items and that would of course screw any type of in game economy. Here we have people making potions and dyes and it matters not because they would be in abundance for free with monthly points.
so it makes perfect and complete sense to limit how many points a player gets per month.
My only answer is, using the ddo example, wait for two months and THEN you get to buy the Drow Race unlock. Given that I played DDO for more than two months and never unlocked the Drow race, it seems a reasonable amount of time to wait.
This is going to come down to people (myself inlcuded) being very mindful of how they play and what they spend.
There is a slippery slope but my experience in life has taught me that wearing the right shoes pretty much makes walking on a slippery slope all the more safe.
But the point I have been making here is that you do not get the same thing under this hybrid model as a subscriber, those saying nothing changes if you are a sub player are missing that it does change.
Sure, a limit in the points you get per month makes sense but it is clear that they have/will set that llimit so that even sub players are not getting the same 'all acccess' for the same $15 a month. Not just in terms of buying with points the new items that go extreme grind or cash shop but in terms of accessing all the other small things that also go grind or buy. A small stipend of points included each month doesn't let you get the same all access you get now under the new system, by design. It is a simple case, under the new hybrid system, of paying more for a little less than the same (P2P VIP + RMT) or paying the same for less (P2P VIP) or paying a lot more for the little individual pieces (F2P).
VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
and
than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
Nr. 1 you do know that those points can be saved up each month, they're not 'use it or lose it' points.
Also I'm unclear on your comment "less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month".
As a DDO player there's very little in the store that you have to spend points on (I'd actually say nothing from a personal point of view), especially on a monthly bases.
What do you see as must have items (that can't be bought in game via vendors or the AH)? - and I'll give you Adventure packs since without them you would have to do an isane amount of grinding the same dungeons and just to keep the game fresh.
VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
and
than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
Nr. 1 you do know that those points can be saved up each month, they're not 'use it or lose it' points.
Also I'm unclear on your comment "less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month".
As a DDO player there's very little in the store that you have to spend points on (I'd actually say nothing from a personal point of view), especially on a monthly bases.
What do you see as must have items (that can't be bought in game via vendors or the AH)? - and I'll give you Adventure packs since without them you would have to do an isane amount of grinding the same dungeons and just to keep the game fresh.
Quoting to elaborate
AgtSmith,
as a VIP, you do not have to spend points to obtain content. All dungeons, zones, areas, quests, activities, festivals, and systems are included in the $15 per month. The points you get every month are bonus so you can buy some XP boost, running speed buffs, extra bag/bank/housing space, character slots, and cosmetic capes/clothing. They roll-over and do not expire.
Expansions might be excluded... everyone will have to spend the $20/$30 dollars on that. I do not believe they will sell the expansions for points, as that would mean VIP's could save up points and get them for "free". This might mean the end of the traditional meaning of expansions too... as that just clashes a bit too much with the model. If you cancel your subscription you drop down to F2P status but keep your points.
Now... all this is still speculation as they have to actually release the system.
When that happens they could change it however they want... but following their DDO model... this is what, sure bet, will happen.
VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
and
than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
Nr. 1 you do know that those points can be saved up each month, they're not 'use it or lose it' points.
Also I'm unclear on your comment "less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month".
As a DDO player there's very little in the store that you have to spend points on (I'd actually say nothing from a personal point of view), especially on a monthly bases.
What do you see as must have items (that can't be bought in game via vendors or the AH)? - and I'll give you Adventure packs since without them you would have to do an isane amount of grinding the same dungeons and just to keep the game fresh.
I've never bought anything in DDO on my free account. Ever.
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
Can you provide links to information that supports that?
Here's a link to the items available in the store and the point values of them:
VIPs get 500 points a month to spend however they want.
How much more clear can I make it - even as a VIP with the points you get the cash shop items you would have gotten before included are pricey and out of reach. Tomes at 2495 points that now, coincidently, drop far more rarely in game - classes that where included before now costing more than the point included in a month's VIP access. It is pretty obvious if you just look and this is just a couple things, it doesn't included the smaller and less subtle things like cash getting you in dungeon rez's and pots, the bonus XP and other such things cash get you. Face it, the game changes with the F2P element and it becomes a cat and mouse of the DEVs designing ways to get people to spend in the cash shop and that doesn't stop with VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
Look, just do the math. 500 points cost, RMT wise, about $6 and change. So either they are designing the game to need more than half as less money per player or they are absolutely expecting people to need/want to spend more than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
The only thing thats really interesting me in such stores is a) content, like adventure packs and new raids, which is free for VIPs, and b) New races/classes which your picture proves i can easily afford on my 500 TC/month. Its not like they add a new class/race every month you know ...
And hell, even if i have to pay 10$ for some hypothetical new content as a VIP, its not like i didnt have to buy expansions before either. I also disagree on the whole idea that turbine will stop giving us content, what do you think sells BEST on such a store? New classes, new races, new content, novelty items. In probably that order. Actually the fact that people can BUY content permanently, forces turbine to keep releasing new content for people.
With the P2P model if people only have the Barad Guldur raid for 18 months thats currently 18x15$ = 270$ for normal subscribers. With the F2P model people in the same situation would wisen up, buy the BG adventure pack for lets say 20$ and drop their VIP status. You even get to keep 7 char slots if you have advanture pack and moria, so you have at most 2 char slots to buy if you currently use the full 9 available. So Turbine is actually forced to now semi regularly release content if they dont want people to just drop their VIP status.
F2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
P2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
Yes, points accumulate so long as you continue paying the subscription - but the point remains that to get the classes under the new system that where included in the old system you have to pay a subscription for at least two months. And again, do the math - $6 and change for the 500 points you get with you subscription so obviusly the cash shop is intended to have more than $6 of need/want per month or the F2P side would fail miserably.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
The only thing thats really interesting me in such stores is a) content, like adventure packs and new raids, which is free for VIPs, and b) New races/classes which your picture proves i can easily afford on my 500 TC/month. Its not like they add a new class/race every month you know ...
And hell, even if i have to pay 10$ for some hypothetical new content as a VIP, its not like i didnt have to buy expansions before either. I also disagree on the whole idea that turbine will stop giving us content, what do you think sells BEST on such a store? New classes, new races, new content, novelty items. In probably that order. Actually the fact that people can BUY content permanently, forces turbine to keep releasing new content for people.
With the P2P model if people only have the Barad Guldur raid for 18 months thats currently 18x15$ = 270$ for normal subscribers. With the F2P model people in the same situation would wisen up, buy the BG adventure pack for lets say 20$ and drop their VIP status. You even get to keep 7 char slots if you have advanture pack and moria, so you have at most 2 char slots to buy if you currently use the full 9 available. So Turbine is actually forced to now semi regularly release content if they dont want people to just drop their VIP status.
F2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
P2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
Fair enough, though emphasis on the last two sentances which is my point - things do not stay the same if you pay a sub being the the larger point.
However, the more 'down the road' point is that this model is a slippery slope and the incentive for DEVs (saying DEVs collectively referring to the game companies and developers) have a direct monetary inticement to change content and change the game to make cash shop pruchases more and more and more necessary, for F2P and subscribers alike. Do we really doubt that once this model is 'accepted' it will not tilt more and more and more in favor of needing to spend cash in the cash shop more and more, subscriber or not? So it starts out with you getting a little less for the same and easily and quickly goes to you paying more to get the same and over time you can bet it will be everybit the nickel and dime system that non-hybrid F2P games are notorious for.
I mean think about it. Content areas, people here pressume, will remian included for subscribers so you have a DEV team sitting around figuring they got X hours to make stuff and they are not going to say 'hey, if we make new systems rather than just areas we can justify selling it to F2P and subscribers"? Come on, no kidding development will shift to things that are new elements that can be sold to both F2P and P2P players and we all knwo the F2P core model is that you pay more piecemeal than under a P2P system because so many of the F2P people are to cheap to pay anything. And example of this from LotRO is skirmishes - easily something that would be a cash shop item for F2P and P2P players alike under the new model. Subscribers couldn't moan about being charged because it is not a new area that would typically be expected to be included - then once you buy that each new map/scenario added is charged for, and so on and so on.
Essentially, it's like this: When you purchased Shadows of Angmar, you had (have) to have a subscription to access that content. If you no longer subscribe, you lose access to it.
Under the new model, even if you drop your subscription you can keep playing for free, but not everything is available to you like it is for subscribers. You won't lose access to all of the SOA content, but you will lose access to some of it unless you purchase it. As it stands now, under the current plan you can play some of the starting content and the epic storyline up to Moria for free, and the landscape up to Moria is free as well.
One of the things the beta is for is to help us determine which parts, if any, of the additional content from SOA should be made free and which should be made purchasable and for how much.
So in other words, no final answer yet, but the beta will help it get finalized!
Meghan
I interpret that (and other things they've said) to mean, you get all the quest content of ered, bree, and the shire for free as a basic free account.
You can also roam all the other pre-moria areas, except maybe Eregion. But the only quest content you get in those areas is the Epic story.
This means that beyond level 20-ish, the only ways to advance are through the epic story and killin' wandrin monstah's. Everything else will have to be purchased through points.
Assuming I'm right, I see that as people getting access similar to WAR's tier 1, while having a number of options for buying more content.
However, the more 'down the road' point is that this model is a slippery slope and the incentive for DEVs (saying DEVs collectively referring to the game companies and developers) have a direct monetary inticement to change content and change the game to make cash shop pruchases more and more and more necessary, for F2P and subscribers alike. Do we really doubt that once this model is 'accepted' it will not tilt more and more and more in favor of needing to spend cash in the cash shop more and more, subscriber or not? So it starts out with you getting a little less for the same and easily and quickly goes to you paying more to get the same and over time you can bet it will be everybit the nickel and dime system that non-hybrid F2P games are notorious for.
This (in part) is why I think current Lotro players should be really yelling and pushing hard on the F2P issue. I think Lotro has already been shifted to a maintenance mode. Development of the game is no where near where it was in the beginning. I think they've shifted over most of their (Turbine) resources over to the new MMO being developed. That means whatever is left is focusing a large part of their time on producing the F2P model. In the past when they were P2P 100% of development was focused on improving game content for current players. Now as a F2P allot of resources are going to be shifted over to producing cash shop items and working out pay models. That means any future content for players (long term) will probably be significantly reduced.
That is my biggest fear with this F2P conversion. Lotro did one real expansion pack (MOM) then released just one zone and called it an expansion (Mirkwood) and it looks like one year later current players are going to get fluff items and maybe one new map (zone). That is two years without an expansion as far as I'm concerned. Current players should be yelling loudly about the lack of development in the game. Heck there are tons of suggestions for minor game improvement, some of which would be easy to implement, but they haven't even worked on ANY UI or game interface updates (except DX10 and DX11 which are just to increase game attraction for new players) since the game has been out! Game players have been begging for housing improvements, ui changes (some of it little stuff) and there hasn't been a significant change in three years.
F2P may bring in more funds to Lotro which current players may think will reinvigorate the game, but I think the future focus of the game (development wise) will be the cash item shop. Don't be fooled into thinking that because you are a lifetime and get a few free points that they aren't counting on purchases from existing lifetime and monthly subscribers. When DDO converted over I read more then one article where Turbine was estatic about how existing subscribers where blowing cash on Turbine points. Getting more actual money from the existing player base is a part of the business plan.
I really think MMO players should be very loud in dismay over P2P games. In my opinion they are targeted towards short term MMO players who hop around and the game focus is generating the best return for that short visit. As an MMO player who wants a continuing long term developed MMO what is going to be left other then WOW after this? I make that statement know there are other MMO's that try to continue generous updates to their games (such as WAR, AOC, EVE) but given low subscribers are more limited with what they can produce for their player base. Here we have what was supposed to be a healthy MMO shifting over to a business model that will be driven to produce cash items and offer an ala cart menu for fast food type consumers.
However, the more 'down the road' point is that this model is a slippery slope and the incentive for DEVs (saying DEVs collectively referring to the game companies and developers) have a direct monetary inticement to change content and change the game to make cash shop pruchases more and more and more necessary, for F2P and subscribers alike. Do we really doubt that once this model is 'accepted' it will not tilt more and more and more in favor of needing to spend cash in the cash shop more and more, subscriber or not? So it starts out with you getting a little less for the same and easily and quickly goes to you paying more to get the same and over time you can bet it will be everybit the nickel and dime system that non-hybrid F2P games are notorious for.
This (in part) is why I think current Lotro players should be really yelling and pushing hard on the F2P issue. I think Lotro has already been shifted to a maintenance mode. Development of the game is no where near where it was in the beginning. I think they've shifted over most of their (Turbine) resources over to the new MMO being developed. That means whatever is left is focusing a large part of their time on producing the F2P model. In the past when they were P2P 100% of development was focused on improving game content for current players. Now as a F2P allot of resources are going to be shifted over to producing cash shop items and working out pay models. That means any future content for players (long term) will probably be significantly reduced.
That is my biggest fear with this F2P conversion. Lotro did one real expansion pack (MOM) then released just one zone and called it an expansion (Mirkwood) and it looks like one year later current players are going to get fluff items and maybe one new map (zone). That is two years without an expansion as far as I'm concerned. Current players should be yelling loudly about the lack of development in the game. Heck there are tons of suggestions for minor game improvement, some of which would be easy to implement, but they haven't even worked on ANY UI or game interface updates (except DX10 and DX11 which are just to increase game attraction for new players) since the game has been out! Game players have been begging for housing improvements, ui changes (some of it little stuff) and there hasn't been a significant change in three years.
F2P may bring in more funds to Lotro which current players may think will reinvigorate the game, but I think the future focus of the game (development wise) will be the cash item shop. Don't be fooled into thinking that because you are a lifetime and get a few free points that they aren't counting on purchases from existing lifetime and monthly subscribers. When DDO converted over I read more then one article where Turbine was estatic about how existing subscribers where blowing cash on Turbine points. Getting more actual money from the existing player base is a part of the business plan.
I really think MMO players should be very loud in dismay over P2P games. In my opinion they are targeted towards short term MMO players who hop around and the game focus is generating the best return for that short visit. As an MMO player who wants a continuing long term developed MMO what is going to be left other then WOW after this? I make that statement know there are other MMO's that try to continue generous updates to their games (such as WAR, AOC, EVE) but given low subscribers are more limited with what they can produce for their player base. Here we have what was supposed to be a healthy MMO shifting over to a business model that will be driven to produce cash items and offer an ala cart menu for fast food type consumers.
A very good point. If you look at DDO this is evident. The game went with no update (called MODs in DDO) for over a year which was 6 months past Turbines own annoucned schedule, then 6 months after the MOD was due they announced the F2P thing and another 4 or so months later that came out. And since then, much of the 'new' stuff is only available through cash shop purchase (or insane in game grind in some cases). So clearly DDO paying players got far less over time than they did under the old system. No, granted, DDO was on life support in a serious way - but the point is still valid. At best LotRO subscribers will pay the same and get most of what they did before and over time they will pay the same and get less and less as development will be not only about creating stuff for the cash shop but about changing the core game to increase need/want for cash shop stuff.
I think people are forgetting the absolute truth of the whole F2P model - that truth is that the pieces bought individually cost far, far more than the whole. This is true because the whole premise of the model is that some people will buy nothing so you have to make up the difference on those that do (often those few that do). So while it may be true that a sub in this hybrid model gets you most of what it did in the old model over time the things you have to buy will be offered on an individual basis and added up will cost far more than they would have sold as a package (expansion, for instance). The sub doesn't get exempted from this reality for a very simple reason, because if the $15 monthly sub did truly get you all it got you under the old system then nobody would use the cash shop they would just pay the $15 a month OR play for free and that would be a major loss for the company, obviously. I hope this point doesn't escape you, the $15/month is not a ceiling - it cannot be - adn they have to find ways to make even the subscribers pay additional money to make up for all the people who are playing without paying either at all or much at all or the model would lose money in comparison to the old model.
Ah....no agtsmith...DDO costs about $60 upfront to play almost all the content. I believe someone else said buying everything costs around $100...a years sub costs $180 a year...multiply that per year and add in any expansions they would offer in a P2P style that costs extra. With DDO F2P I can pay about $100 upfront and play that for as long as I want.
Like people that buy gold in other games not everyone is going to buy shinies. F2P haters look only at the extreme 10% and act like they are protecting everyone when most people do not need your protection and like the idea of paying once for what you want and throwing in extra when you want. Got a long weekend and want to make the most of it, buy an xp pot.
Once again it is the raiders that fear losing their elite status in MMO's that are up in arms. Face it you make up way less than half of the market. Games can not satisfy you. You all bitch and moan that you blow through content too fast, it was too easy, we do not just want new shinies. In truth that is all you want. You want to parade infront of others and tell them how great you are for having hours and hours on end to beat a mathmatical process that you call a raid. The majority of players do not care. We want fun. Fun on our terms and at our price. You are the old way the dying way. The games that have very short lifespans. Hardcore is dead. The day of the casual is here. Embrace it and learn to play by our rules or crawl off bitching and moaning into the history books of games and play fringe games with crappy player bases that do not allow them to really create something great. Ta Ta.
DDO's content release got set back by a lawsuit, near bankruptcy, and game staff changes due to reorganization. The fact that they survived and put anything out is amazing and that it is doing so well.
I think people are forgetting the absolute truth of the whole F2P model - that truth is that the pieces bought individually cost far, far more than the whole. This is true because the whole premise of the model is that some people will buy nothing so you have to make up the difference on those that do (often those few that do). So while it may be true that a sub in this hybrid model gets you most of what it did in the old model over time the things you have to buy will be offered on an individual basis and added up will cost far more than they would have sold as a package (expansion, for instance). The sub doesn't get exempted from this reality for a very simple reason, because if the $15 monthly sub did truly get you all it got you under the old system then nobody would use the cash shop they would just pay the $15 a month OR play for free and that would be a major loss for the company, obviously. I hope this point doesn't escape you, the $15/month is not a ceiling - it cannot be - adn they have to find ways to make even the subscribers pay additional money to make up for all the people who are playing without paying either at all or much at all or the model would lose money in comparison to the old model.
Wrong. The model is quantity not quality of investor. if only 100 people in invest for $15 a month, but 300 will invest for $60 upfront you have just made 3 months of pay upfront. Now if people keep rotating in in numbers around 300 (as in the example) buying here and there at small amounts the costs is spread across a larger base for a smaller amount, but the company makes the same amount of cash. F2P models means that people do not invest in one or two games as in a P2P model, but they can invest in many games at roughly the same amount over time as they would in only 2 games and due to increased number of players rotating around between games the companies make the same ammount of money without having a smaller stable player base.
Like people that buy gold in other games not everyone is going to buy shinies. F2P haters look only at the extreme 10% and act like they are protecting everyone when most people do not need your protection and like the idea of paying once for what you want and throwing in extra when you want. Got a long weekend and want to make the most of it, buy an xp pot.
The fact that 80% or more of the playerbase will spend no money on the game is an inconvenient one, so they ignore it in these conversations.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ah....no agtsmith...DDO costs about $60 upfront to play almost all the content. I believe someone else said buying everything costs around $100...a years sub costs $180 a year...multiply that per year and add in any expansions they would offer in a P2P style that costs extra. With DDO F2P I can pay about $100 upfront and play that for as long as I want.
Like people that buy gold in other games not everyone is going to buy shinies. F2P haters look only at the extreme 10% and act like they are protecting everyone when most people do not need your protection and like the idea of paying once for what you want and throwing in extra when you want. Got a long weekend and want to make the most of it, buy an xp pot.
Once again it is the raiders that fear losing their elite status in MMO's that are up in arms. Face it you make up way less than half of the market. Games can not satisfy you. You all bitch and moan that you blow through content too fast, it was too easy, we do not just want new shinies. In truth that is all you want. You want to parade infront of others and tell them how great you are for having hours and hours on end to beat a mathmatical process that you call a raid. The majority of players do not care. We want fun. Fun on our terms and at our price. You are the old way the dying way. The games that have very short lifespans. Hardcore is dead. The day of the casual is here. Embrace it and learn to play by our rules or crawl off bitching and moaning into the history books of games and play fringe games with crappy player bases that do not allow them to really create something great. Ta Ta.
Gave me a chuckle with this one. Currently I don't sub to LOTRO as I'm really too busy to justify paying for something I might get to play once a week if that having said that I'm glad it's going F2P and they will be too because now I will actually purchase siege of mirkwood and may actually sub for the few free months of points which simply was not an option under the normal P2P system.
Again this topic to me comes off as the normal "sky is falling" attitude often displayed by the fervent mmo crowd, from the elitist "don't want to play with the f2p trash" to the "it's not fair that they get an I win button while I had to grind for 40 hours for said item" it still boils down to the fact that mmo's no matter how hard you guys want to believe are just video games to most of us (especially the devs target market as I think Horusra is saying) and as such flexibility is an option, if Turbine can make more off the game this way and still keep it fun and entertaining for me and as many others as possible I'm all for it. By the way in only a select few games is the "pay to win" statement even relevant and LOTRO is not one of them far too little pvp for what's happening in my experience to matter to anyone who isn't just looking for something to complain about. In general my experience is that cash shop itmes rarely give any great advantage over someone with alot of time to acomplish actions like resting to heal etc. while there could be changes I wouldn't like I think for the chance for them to make more money hence further development (even if I have to pay for it since monthly sub is constantly paying for a new update every 6 months or so) it's relative to me. Whether this experiment works out for the good for Turbine or the community of LOTRO I commend them and am glad they had the guts to take a chance with this idea.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Ah....no agtsmith...DDO costs about $60 upfront to play almost all the content. I believe someone else said buying everything costs around $100...a years sub costs $180 a year...multiply that per year and add in any expansions they would offer in a P2P style that costs extra. With DDO F2P I can pay about $100 upfront and play that for as long as I want.
But that is my point about changing over time. As you point out - the 'unlockables' only bring in one time fixed dollars so it is INEVITABLE that to stay in business they have to make the cash shop more and more and more needed (i.e. new stuff, consumables, etc) or they will go broke.
I am not arguing whether the F2P model is evil and the P2P model angelic - that is a preferential issue, though my preference is obvious. What I am arguing here is that they idea that you can combine both is a fallacy. You cannot have a game that is the same for the subscribers but viable as F2P at the same time. The two models conflict. So something has to give - and it will be the subscribers side of things that has to give as the game is made, more and more, to cater to the piecemeal purchase model of F2P and the need to create regular needs alleviated by the cash shop.
Think of non gaming examples, one that comes to mind is TV verse movies. TV is ad supported and depends on devloping an ongoing interest with the viewer to succeed. Movies, on the other hand, are largely self contained. The effect of the revenue model is inextricably tied to the content that results and in the same way a F2P will dictate core desgin changes to make it profitable that conflict with what makes a good P2P game.
Once again it is the raiders that fear losing their elite status in MMO's that are up in arms. Face it you make up way less than half of the market. Games can not satisfy you. You all bitch and moan that you blow through content too fast, it was too easy, we do not just want new shinies. In truth that is all you want. You want to parade infront of others and tell them how great you are for having hours and hours on end to beat a mathmatical process that you call a raid. The majority of players do not care. We want fun. Fun on our terms and at our price. You are the old way the dying way. The games that have very short lifespans. Hardcore is dead. The day of the casual is here. Embrace it and learn to play by our rules or crawl off bitching and moaning into the history books of games and play fringe games with crappy player bases that do not allow them to really create something great. Ta Ta.
Sure the raiders are up in arms, but even as a casual player you should be a bit wary of F2P. If the focus of a F2P game is the cash shop with minor content upgrades what is the long term incentive for you to stay in the game as a casual? If you are the type of casual who wants short stays in game A or game B then F2P is perfect for you. You can hop around in shallow games with minimal or no cash purchases and then flip to something else when you get bored. The market even caters to you already. Just look at the current game list here at MMORPG and the number of non F2P games is a heck of a lot larger then P2P.
But lack of content complaints impact casual players too. If the focus of the game is generating revenue from the cash shop how much of a complex game are any of us ever going to get? ROM is considered a fairly good F2P but there a ton of legitimate complaints about lack of things to do once you've reached max level. The same can't be said of WOW or Lotro and other P2P games. I'm not a raider (time zone and time investment issues) but even with Lotro not as much casual content is being added anymore. Even if you are a hard-core F2P casual consumer what if you find a game you really like. Is it really to your benefit that 80% of the new content for your new game is going to be cash item cosmetic and potion purchases?
Originally posted by Horusra
Wrong. The model is quantity not quality of investor. if only 100 people in invest for $15 a month, but 300 will invest for $60 upfront you have just made 3 months of pay upfront. Now if people keep rotating in in numbers around 300 (as in the example) buying here and there at small amounts the costs is spread across a larger base for a smaller amount, but the company makes the same amount of cash. F2P models means that people do not invest in one or two games as in a P2P model, but they can invest in many games at roughly the same amount over time as they would in only 2 games and due to increased number of players rotating around between games the companies make the same ammount of money without having a smaller stable player base.
Here your done a great job of articulating my greatest fears. If the focus of the game is for causal's who rotate between many different games then there is less need for any substantial game play in an MMO since the consumer is won't be investing enough time in the game anyway. Using Lotro as an example they have two years of hard effort (I don't count the last year since they haven't made any significant changes to the game) at developing content. That is enough game for the casual hop around player. There isn't a real need to create much or any significant changes to the game since the life cycle of the player will be short enough that they probably won't even finish what they have.
Most of the asian F2P companies churn out a game and then start work on getting the next little money maker out for this type of consumer. The old game semi-stagnates since it's old news already. That is fine for those type of companies but I really hate seeing a western MMO developer give up on a valid pay model and shift over focus to that type of product.
But lack of content complaints impact casual players too. If the focus of the game is generating revenue from the cash shop how much of a complex game are any of us ever going to get? ROM is considered a fairly good F2P but there a ton of legitimate complaints about lack of things to do once you've reached max level. The same can't be said of WOW or Lotro and other P2P games. I'm not a raider (time zone and time investment issues) but even with Lotro not as much casual content is being added anymore. Even if you are a hard-core F2P casual consumer what if you find a game you really like. Is it really to your benefit that 80% of the new content for your new game is going to be cash item cosmetic and potion purchases?
Originally posted by Horusra
This is an important point if I can expand on it or try to highlight it in a different way. The point of a F2P game's design has to be to, ultiimately, generate need/want to purchase cash shop items. Yes, building a fun game is part of that but the primary goal of a F2P game HAS to be to generate cash shop sales or it will fail. This is in conflict with the design of a P2P game which is more about managing or gating content, rewards, and overall time as the real commodity being sold is, in essence, time or at least access per time. You simply cannot design for both things, they are non compatible, at least largely, goals and in many respects they are directly in contradicition. Consider for a moment about a movie that is $8 (insert your local theater price there) for a ticket verse some new movie pricing scheme that charges for time (say $2 per half hour of runnign time). At first, most all movies would work in either model being 6 of one and half dozen of the other but over time the directors and studios are going to figure out that if they just make movies longer they can get more money, so a fork occurs where going forward there is an incentive for movies to be longer and longer and that pricing model becomes more and more incompatible with the old movies that where made for the old model. You cannot seperate pricing model from design considerations, they go hand in hand - and F2P and P2P are simply too different so you cannot have things stay the same for subscribers while going F2P.
Ah....no agtsmith...DDO costs about $60 upfront to play almost all the content. I believe someone else said buying everything costs around $100...a years sub costs $180 a year...multiply that per year and add in any expansions they would offer in a P2P style that costs extra. With DDO F2P I can pay about $100 upfront and play that for as long as I want.
But that is my point about changing over time. As you point out - the 'unlockables' only bring in one time fixed dollars so it is INEVITABLE that to stay in business they have to make the cash shop more and more and more needed (i.e. new stuff, consumables, etc) or they will go broke.
Agt, that's not how microtransaction and F2P systems work. A small percentage spends money on microtransactions. F2P and community focus bring in the numbers so that small percentage makes the system viable.
It is a completely different approach to pricing for the game and a big shift in how the game itself is managed. Free to play works out well both for the free players and the paying players as both are needed for the system to work. To explain that, I'l cnp a post I had written on another forum.
"In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player isn't viewed as a back of the bus customer.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels 'dead'. When new players log into a 'dead' server, they aren't too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the raiders and grinders need people to group with and the socializers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you're only getting cash from a small percentage, so it's not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest - they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your energies primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
- providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
- providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to buy them
- The vanity case isn't going to buy new bling if there's no one to show it off to.
- The raider/grinder isn't going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn't have players to group with or compete against
- The socialiser isn't going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he's logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agt, that's not how microtransaction and F2P systems work. A small percentage spends money on microtransactions. F2P and community focus bring in the numbers so that small percentage makes the system viable.
It is a completely different approach to pricing for the game and a big shift in how the game itself is managed. Free to play works out well both for the free players and the paying players as both are needed for the system to work. To explain that, I'l cnp a post I had written on another forum.
So you think the DEVs (again, designers and companies) are immune to the desire and even necessity of increasing revenue by increasing the need/want for cash shop use? That is pretty naive. Yes, in F2P the bulk of player pay little or nothing opting to just take the lumps that comes withou paying nothing or very little - that is why a potion of whatever is expensive - because they make money on the few who do fork over cash. But that notwithstanding, there is a clear incentive and goal and desire by F2P games to find new ways to create desire and need for more and more people to use the cash shop - and that becomes the overwhelming driver of gameplay development, necessarily. The reality of the matter is that if the game where truly free to play then they game would go broke and close - nobody would argue this is not true. The question is how inconvenient, or how gimped, is the game to play if you pay nothing and how good a job the devs do of creating cash shop items that entice people to spend money in the cash shop which is antethetical to the model that drives development of an all access subscription game.
There is a concept that is in play here called the Pareto Principle (or 80-20 rule) which, simply stated, says that 80% of causes come from 20% of actions. This is so applicable in business that it is often spooky, in general the idea is that 80% of sales come from 20% of items is a mantra in retail for instance. So you are always trying to increase your overall offerings because as you increase the 100% of what you offer the 20% that moves increases the 80% you make. So yes, a F2P game is driven to increase its base appeal to get its 100% up and therefore get its 20% up and the 80% it makes off those 20% up as well. But this applies in the macro as well so the same principle means that they are driven to design more and more and more for sale on the cash shop, to drive more and more need and desire to the cash shop - i.e. 20% of the players that use the cash shop account for 80% of the revenue from the cash shop so get more players to the cash shop to get that to yield more revenue.
Point here being that you can bet not a day goes by in the studio of a F2P game where they are not focusing on how to get more of the playerbase to use the cash shop. And the answer in an MMO is to develop gameplay to entice, cajole, and even require players to, on occasion or reguarly, to use the cash shop. My point is simply that this reality, and it is absolutely naive to not accept this as reality, is contrary to the idea that subscribers in the future model will get the same thing they get now because the above necesarily dictates that over time the game has to change to capitalize on the 80-20 rule with regard to the free players.
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Well, I am not sure it is all that bad. But yeah - the whole free to play name is ridiculous as it obviously is not free to play or these companies would go belly up. I think what I am trying to warn people about is not the dishonesty of the free to play moniker though so much as the way the F2P cash shop will drive out the subscription as an all access pass over time. Sure, if tons and tons of the players still subscribe then it will likely remain largely as it is now that you get what you get now (all access). But it is inevitable that over time the F2P model pushes out the subscription and things get developed and steered to the cash shop because the amount of 'free' players will overwhelm the sub players in short order. So in one respect the hybrid model is a fine idea, it is just that in practice it will give way over time to the F2P because the F2P draws more players and more revenue as people pay more for the game cut up in smaller peices. As that happens, over time, things that are new will go straight to the cash shop rather than be included in the subscription (i.e. classes, items, etc) and design will go the route of including more and more need to buy from the cash shop which will affect free and sub players alike.
The simple point being that so long as the description of what you get with a sub is not 'everything' then rest assured that they are clearly saying that you are not getting everything and that as the game matures as F2P hybrid more and more things will go to the cash shop and design will support that by making use of the cash shop more and more necessary. I mean even the idea of all access goes away day 1 of this new model as there currently is no cash shop, no points to buy game relevent things - so a sub (lifetime or other) will not give you anything but a trivial amount of points for that new and important system which will be the biggest driver of revenue for the F2P part of things.
I mean think about it - the point of the free-to-play part of the game is not simply to get people to subscribe, if it where they there would be no cash shop save for buying a months worth of access to this or that game element. The F2P side of things is a one time buy - so even if you pay more for all the 'parts' of the game the revenue doesn't cover you playing for long compared to a traditional buy the box and pay a sub model. F2P has to have people reguarly needing/wanting things on the cash shop (things mind you not access to areas/elements - think pots, gear, etc). Sales of these things are what provides the ongoing revenue and so the game HAS to be remade to make a need for their purchase. And even if you buy a sub, or are a lifer, the points you get to spend each month on these things will nowhere near approach what is offered either in terms of the need things or the want things. So even paying subscribers or paid lifers will find in short order that there are need/want items that require cash to get and that such things that are available in game through play will, over time, take more and more play to get as if it doesn't take more and more play to get said things then people will just play to get them and the cash shop won't make any money.
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Can you provide links to information that supports that?
Here's a link to the items available in the store and the point values of them:
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/DDO_Store_Guide
Here's a link to the page explaining what VIP (subscriber) accounts get:
http://www.ddo.com/vip
VIPs get 500 points a month to spend however they want.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How much more clear can I make it - even as a VIP with the points you get the cash shop items you would have gotten before included are pricey and out of reach. Tomes at 2495 points that now, coincidently, drop far more rarely in game - classes that where included before now costing more than the point included in a month's VIP access. It is pretty obvious if you just look and this is just a couple things, it doesn't included the smaller and less subtle things like cash getting you in dungeon rez's and pots, the bonus XP and other such things cash get you. Face it, the game changes with the F2P element and it becomes a cat and mouse of the DEVs designing ways to get people to spend in the cash shop and that doesn't stop with VIPs who get a monthly stipend of points that is miniscule compared to the demand they are trying to create for the cash shop stuff.
Look, just do the math. 500 points cost, RMT wise, about $6 and change. So either they are designing the game to need more than half as less money per player or they are absolutely expecting people to need/want to spend more than the points they give VIPs, and with more and more 'new' stuff being insane grind or cash shop clearly they are giving VIPs far less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month.
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I think your point is well taken regarding the "free" Turbine Points in relation to how much things are in the store.
I have no doubt that there is someone at Turbine who figured out some sort of balance between what will be granted vs what items cost. The idea is probably to give the VIP customer "just" enought incentive to buy a small amount of points to top it off.
Of course a limit is required no? I mean, if the VIP players got 5000 points per month then they would be rolling in essentially "free" items and that would of course screw any type of in game economy. Here we have people making potions and dyes and it matters not because they would be in abundance for free with monthly points.
so it makes perfect and complete sense to limit how many points a player gets per month.
My only answer is, using the ddo example, wait for two months and THEN you get to buy the Drow Race unlock. Given that I played DDO for more than two months and never unlocked the Drow race, it seems a reasonable amount of time to wait.
This is going to come down to people (myself inlcuded) being very mindful of how they play and what they spend.
There is a slippery slope but my experience in life has taught me that wearing the right shoes pretty much makes walking on a slippery slope all the more safe.
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I for one am looking forward to LOTRO going F2P. I have LS but lets fac eit development for LOTRO has pretty much stopped. One of the Turbine dudes said we now have a better chance of getting to Morder now!!!
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But the point I have been making here is that you do not get the same thing under this hybrid model as a subscriber, those saying nothing changes if you are a sub player are missing that it does change.
Sure, a limit in the points you get per month makes sense but it is clear that they have/will set that llimit so that even sub players are not getting the same 'all acccess' for the same $15 a month. Not just in terms of buying with points the new items that go extreme grind or cash shop but in terms of accessing all the other small things that also go grind or buy. A small stipend of points included each month doesn't let you get the same all access you get now under the new system, by design. It is a simple case, under the new hybrid system, of paying more for a little less than the same (P2P VIP + RMT) or paying the same for less (P2P VIP) or paying a lot more for the little individual pieces (F2P).
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Nr. 1 you do know that those points can be saved up each month, they're not 'use it or lose it' points.
Also I'm unclear on your comment "less in points each month than the game's design is intending to be spent each month".
As a DDO player there's very little in the store that you have to spend points on (I'd actually say nothing from a personal point of view), especially on a monthly bases.
What do you see as must have items (that can't be bought in game via vendors or the AH)? - and I'll give you Adventure packs since without them you would have to do an isane amount of grinding the same dungeons and just to keep the game fresh.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Quoting to elaborate
AgtSmith,
as a VIP, you do not have to spend points to obtain content. All dungeons, zones, areas, quests, activities, festivals, and systems are included in the $15 per month. The points you get every month are bonus so you can buy some XP boost, running speed buffs, extra bag/bank/housing space, character slots, and cosmetic capes/clothing. They roll-over and do not expire.
Expansions might be excluded... everyone will have to spend the $20/$30 dollars on that. I do not believe they will sell the expansions for points, as that would mean VIP's could save up points and get them for "free". This might mean the end of the traditional meaning of expansions too... as that just clashes a bit too much with the model. If you cancel your subscription you drop down to F2P status but keep your points.
Now... all this is still speculation as they have to actually release the system.
When that happens they could change it however they want... but following their DDO model... this is what, sure bet, will happen.
I've never bought anything in DDO on my free account. Ever.
The only thing thats really interesting me in such stores is a) content, like adventure packs and new raids, which is free for VIPs, and b) New races/classes which your picture proves i can easily afford on my 500 TC/month. Its not like they add a new class/race every month you know ...
And hell, even if i have to pay 10$ for some hypothetical new content as a VIP, its not like i didnt have to buy expansions before either. I also disagree on the whole idea that turbine will stop giving us content, what do you think sells BEST on such a store? New classes, new races, new content, novelty items. In probably that order. Actually the fact that people can BUY content permanently, forces turbine to keep releasing new content for people.
With the P2P model if people only have the Barad Guldur raid for 18 months thats currently 18x15$ = 270$ for normal subscribers. With the F2P model people in the same situation would wisen up, buy the BG adventure pack for lets say 20$ and drop their VIP status. You even get to keep 7 char slots if you have advanture pack and moria, so you have at most 2 char slots to buy if you currently use the full 9 available. So Turbine is actually forced to now semi regularly release content if they dont want people to just drop their VIP status.
F2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
P2P Fact: Lifers and Subscribers wont get everything for free.
Yes, points accumulate so long as you continue paying the subscription - but the point remains that to get the classes under the new system that where included in the old system you have to pay a subscription for at least two months. And again, do the math - $6 and change for the 500 points you get with you subscription so obviusly the cash shop is intended to have more than $6 of need/want per month or the F2P side would fail miserably.
Fair enough, though emphasis on the last two sentances which is my point - things do not stay the same if you pay a sub being the the larger point.
However, the more 'down the road' point is that this model is a slippery slope and the incentive for DEVs (saying DEVs collectively referring to the game companies and developers) have a direct monetary inticement to change content and change the game to make cash shop pruchases more and more and more necessary, for F2P and subscribers alike. Do we really doubt that once this model is 'accepted' it will not tilt more and more and more in favor of needing to spend cash in the cash shop more and more, subscriber or not? So it starts out with you getting a little less for the same and easily and quickly goes to you paying more to get the same and over time you can bet it will be everybit the nickel and dime system that non-hybrid F2P games are notorious for.
I mean think about it. Content areas, people here pressume, will remian included for subscribers so you have a DEV team sitting around figuring they got X hours to make stuff and they are not going to say 'hey, if we make new systems rather than just areas we can justify selling it to F2P and subscribers"? Come on, no kidding development will shift to things that are new elements that can be sold to both F2P and P2P players and we all knwo the F2P core model is that you pay more piecemeal than under a P2P system because so many of the F2P people are to cheap to pay anything. And example of this from LotRO is skirmishes - easily something that would be a cash shop item for F2P and P2P players alike under the new model. Subscribers couldn't moan about being charged because it is not a new area that would typically be expected to be included - then once you buy that each new map/scenario added is charged for, and so on and so on.
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I interpret that (and other things they've said) to mean, you get all the quest content of ered, bree, and the shire for free as a basic free account.
You can also roam all the other pre-moria areas, except maybe Eregion. But the only quest content you get in those areas is the Epic story.
This means that beyond level 20-ish, the only ways to advance are through the epic story and killin' wandrin monstah's. Everything else will have to be purchased through points.
Assuming I'm right, I see that as people getting access similar to WAR's tier 1, while having a number of options for buying more content.
This (in part) is why I think current Lotro players should be really yelling and pushing hard on the F2P issue. I think Lotro has already been shifted to a maintenance mode. Development of the game is no where near where it was in the beginning. I think they've shifted over most of their (Turbine) resources over to the new MMO being developed. That means whatever is left is focusing a large part of their time on producing the F2P model. In the past when they were P2P 100% of development was focused on improving game content for current players. Now as a F2P allot of resources are going to be shifted over to producing cash shop items and working out pay models. That means any future content for players (long term) will probably be significantly reduced.
That is my biggest fear with this F2P conversion. Lotro did one real expansion pack (MOM) then released just one zone and called it an expansion (Mirkwood) and it looks like one year later current players are going to get fluff items and maybe one new map (zone). That is two years without an expansion as far as I'm concerned. Current players should be yelling loudly about the lack of development in the game. Heck there are tons of suggestions for minor game improvement, some of which would be easy to implement, but they haven't even worked on ANY UI or game interface updates (except DX10 and DX11 which are just to increase game attraction for new players) since the game has been out! Game players have been begging for housing improvements, ui changes (some of it little stuff) and there hasn't been a significant change in three years.
F2P may bring in more funds to Lotro which current players may think will reinvigorate the game, but I think the future focus of the game (development wise) will be the cash item shop. Don't be fooled into thinking that because you are a lifetime and get a few free points that they aren't counting on purchases from existing lifetime and monthly subscribers. When DDO converted over I read more then one article where Turbine was estatic about how existing subscribers where blowing cash on Turbine points. Getting more actual money from the existing player base is a part of the business plan.
I really think MMO players should be very loud in dismay over P2P games. In my opinion they are targeted towards short term MMO players who hop around and the game focus is generating the best return for that short visit. As an MMO player who wants a continuing long term developed MMO what is going to be left other then WOW after this? I make that statement know there are other MMO's that try to continue generous updates to their games (such as WAR, AOC, EVE) but given low subscribers are more limited with what they can produce for their player base. Here we have what was supposed to be a healthy MMO shifting over to a business model that will be driven to produce cash items and offer an ala cart menu for fast food type consumers.
Oops, mispost
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A very good point. If you look at DDO this is evident. The game went with no update (called MODs in DDO) for over a year which was 6 months past Turbines own annoucned schedule, then 6 months after the MOD was due they announced the F2P thing and another 4 or so months later that came out. And since then, much of the 'new' stuff is only available through cash shop purchase (or insane in game grind in some cases). So clearly DDO paying players got far less over time than they did under the old system. No, granted, DDO was on life support in a serious way - but the point is still valid. At best LotRO subscribers will pay the same and get most of what they did before and over time they will pay the same and get less and less as development will be not only about creating stuff for the cash shop but about changing the core game to increase need/want for cash shop stuff.
I think people are forgetting the absolute truth of the whole F2P model - that truth is that the pieces bought individually cost far, far more than the whole. This is true because the whole premise of the model is that some people will buy nothing so you have to make up the difference on those that do (often those few that do). So while it may be true that a sub in this hybrid model gets you most of what it did in the old model over time the things you have to buy will be offered on an individual basis and added up will cost far more than they would have sold as a package (expansion, for instance). The sub doesn't get exempted from this reality for a very simple reason, because if the $15 monthly sub did truly get you all it got you under the old system then nobody would use the cash shop they would just pay the $15 a month OR play for free and that would be a major loss for the company, obviously. I hope this point doesn't escape you, the $15/month is not a ceiling - it cannot be - adn they have to find ways to make even the subscribers pay additional money to make up for all the people who are playing without paying either at all or much at all or the model would lose money in comparison to the old model.
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Ah....no agtsmith...DDO costs about $60 upfront to play almost all the content. I believe someone else said buying everything costs around $100...a years sub costs $180 a year...multiply that per year and add in any expansions they would offer in a P2P style that costs extra. With DDO F2P I can pay about $100 upfront and play that for as long as I want.
Like people that buy gold in other games not everyone is going to buy shinies. F2P haters look only at the extreme 10% and act like they are protecting everyone when most people do not need your protection and like the idea of paying once for what you want and throwing in extra when you want. Got a long weekend and want to make the most of it, buy an xp pot.
Once again it is the raiders that fear losing their elite status in MMO's that are up in arms. Face it you make up way less than half of the market. Games can not satisfy you. You all bitch and moan that you blow through content too fast, it was too easy, we do not just want new shinies. In truth that is all you want. You want to parade infront of others and tell them how great you are for having hours and hours on end to beat a mathmatical process that you call a raid. The majority of players do not care. We want fun. Fun on our terms and at our price. You are the old way the dying way. The games that have very short lifespans. Hardcore is dead. The day of the casual is here. Embrace it and learn to play by our rules or crawl off bitching and moaning into the history books of games and play fringe games with crappy player bases that do not allow them to really create something great. Ta Ta.
DDO's content release got set back by a lawsuit, near bankruptcy, and game staff changes due to reorganization. The fact that they survived and put anything out is amazing and that it is doing so well.
Wrong. The model is quantity not quality of investor. if only 100 people in invest for $15 a month, but 300 will invest for $60 upfront you have just made 3 months of pay upfront. Now if people keep rotating in in numbers around 300 (as in the example) buying here and there at small amounts the costs is spread across a larger base for a smaller amount, but the company makes the same amount of cash. F2P models means that people do not invest in one or two games as in a P2P model, but they can invest in many games at roughly the same amount over time as they would in only 2 games and due to increased number of players rotating around between games the companies make the same ammount of money without having a smaller stable player base.
The fact that 80% or more of the playerbase will spend no money on the game is an inconvenient one, so they ignore it in these conversations.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Gave me a chuckle with this one. Currently I don't sub to LOTRO as I'm really too busy to justify paying for something I might get to play once a week if that having said that I'm glad it's going F2P and they will be too because now I will actually purchase siege of mirkwood and may actually sub for the few free months of points which simply was not an option under the normal P2P system.
Again this topic to me comes off as the normal "sky is falling" attitude often displayed by the fervent mmo crowd, from the elitist "don't want to play with the f2p trash" to the "it's not fair that they get an I win button while I had to grind for 40 hours for said item" it still boils down to the fact that mmo's no matter how hard you guys want to believe are just video games to most of us (especially the devs target market as I think Horusra is saying) and as such flexibility is an option, if Turbine can make more off the game this way and still keep it fun and entertaining for me and as many others as possible I'm all for it. By the way in only a select few games is the "pay to win" statement even relevant and LOTRO is not one of them far too little pvp for what's happening in my experience to matter to anyone who isn't just looking for something to complain about. In general my experience is that cash shop itmes rarely give any great advantage over someone with alot of time to acomplish actions like resting to heal etc. while there could be changes I wouldn't like I think for the chance for them to make more money hence further development (even if I have to pay for it since monthly sub is constantly paying for a new update every 6 months or so) it's relative to me. Whether this experiment works out for the good for Turbine or the community of LOTRO I commend them and am glad they had the guts to take a chance with this idea.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
But that is my point about changing over time. As you point out - the 'unlockables' only bring in one time fixed dollars so it is INEVITABLE that to stay in business they have to make the cash shop more and more and more needed (i.e. new stuff, consumables, etc) or they will go broke.
I am not arguing whether the F2P model is evil and the P2P model angelic - that is a preferential issue, though my preference is obvious. What I am arguing here is that they idea that you can combine both is a fallacy. You cannot have a game that is the same for the subscribers but viable as F2P at the same time. The two models conflict. So something has to give - and it will be the subscribers side of things that has to give as the game is made, more and more, to cater to the piecemeal purchase model of F2P and the need to create regular needs alleviated by the cash shop.
Think of non gaming examples, one that comes to mind is TV verse movies. TV is ad supported and depends on devloping an ongoing interest with the viewer to succeed. Movies, on the other hand, are largely self contained. The effect of the revenue model is inextricably tied to the content that results and in the same way a F2P will dictate core desgin changes to make it profitable that conflict with what makes a good P2P game.
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Sure the raiders are up in arms, but even as a casual player you should be a bit wary of F2P. If the focus of a F2P game is the cash shop with minor content upgrades what is the long term incentive for you to stay in the game as a casual? If you are the type of casual who wants short stays in game A or game B then F2P is perfect for you. You can hop around in shallow games with minimal or no cash purchases and then flip to something else when you get bored. The market even caters to you already. Just look at the current game list here at MMORPG and the number of non F2P games is a heck of a lot larger then P2P.
But lack of content complaints impact casual players too. If the focus of the game is generating revenue from the cash shop how much of a complex game are any of us ever going to get? ROM is considered a fairly good F2P but there a ton of legitimate complaints about lack of things to do once you've reached max level. The same can't be said of WOW or Lotro and other P2P games. I'm not a raider (time zone and time investment issues) but even with Lotro not as much casual content is being added anymore. Even if you are a hard-core F2P casual consumer what if you find a game you really like. Is it really to your benefit that 80% of the new content for your new game is going to be cash item cosmetic and potion purchases?
Originally posted by Horusra
Wrong. The model is quantity not quality of investor. if only 100 people in invest for $15 a month, but 300 will invest for $60 upfront you have just made 3 months of pay upfront. Now if people keep rotating in in numbers around 300 (as in the example) buying here and there at small amounts the costs is spread across a larger base for a smaller amount, but the company makes the same amount of cash. F2P models means that people do not invest in one or two games as in a P2P model, but they can invest in many games at roughly the same amount over time as they would in only 2 games and due to increased number of players rotating around between games the companies make the same ammount of money without having a smaller stable player base.
Here your done a great job of articulating my greatest fears. If the focus of the game is for causal's who rotate between many different games then there is less need for any substantial game play in an MMO since the consumer is won't be investing enough time in the game anyway. Using Lotro as an example they have two years of hard effort (I don't count the last year since they haven't made any significant changes to the game) at developing content. That is enough game for the casual hop around player. There isn't a real need to create much or any significant changes to the game since the life cycle of the player will be short enough that they probably won't even finish what they have.
Most of the asian F2P companies churn out a game and then start work on getting the next little money maker out for this type of consumer. The old game semi-stagnates since it's old news already. That is fine for those type of companies but I really hate seeing a western MMO developer give up on a valid pay model and shift over focus to that type of product.
This is an important point if I can expand on it or try to highlight it in a different way. The point of a F2P game's design has to be to, ultiimately, generate need/want to purchase cash shop items. Yes, building a fun game is part of that but the primary goal of a F2P game HAS to be to generate cash shop sales or it will fail. This is in conflict with the design of a P2P game which is more about managing or gating content, rewards, and overall time as the real commodity being sold is, in essence, time or at least access per time. You simply cannot design for both things, they are non compatible, at least largely, goals and in many respects they are directly in contradicition. Consider for a moment about a movie that is $8 (insert your local theater price there) for a ticket verse some new movie pricing scheme that charges for time (say $2 per half hour of runnign time). At first, most all movies would work in either model being 6 of one and half dozen of the other but over time the directors and studios are going to figure out that if they just make movies longer they can get more money, so a fork occurs where going forward there is an incentive for movies to be longer and longer and that pricing model becomes more and more incompatible with the old movies that where made for the old model. You cannot seperate pricing model from design considerations, they go hand in hand - and F2P and P2P are simply too different so you cannot have things stay the same for subscribers while going F2P.
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Agt, that's not how microtransaction and F2P systems work. A small percentage spends money on microtransactions. F2P and community focus bring in the numbers so that small percentage makes the system viable.
It is a completely different approach to pricing for the game and a big shift in how the game itself is managed. Free to play works out well both for the free players and the paying players as both are needed for the system to work. To explain that, I'l cnp a post I had written on another forum.
"In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player isn't viewed as a back of the bus customer.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels 'dead'. When new players log into a 'dead' server, they aren't too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the raiders and grinders need people to group with and the socializers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you're only getting cash from a small percentage, so it's not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest - they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your energies primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
- providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
- providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to buy them
- The vanity case isn't going to buy new bling if there's no one to show it off to.
- The raider/grinder isn't going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn't have players to group with or compete against
- The socialiser isn't going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he's logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So you think the DEVs (again, designers and companies) are immune to the desire and even necessity of increasing revenue by increasing the need/want for cash shop use? That is pretty naive. Yes, in F2P the bulk of player pay little or nothing opting to just take the lumps that comes withou paying nothing or very little - that is why a potion of whatever is expensive - because they make money on the few who do fork over cash. But that notwithstanding, there is a clear incentive and goal and desire by F2P games to find new ways to create desire and need for more and more people to use the cash shop - and that becomes the overwhelming driver of gameplay development, necessarily. The reality of the matter is that if the game where truly free to play then they game would go broke and close - nobody would argue this is not true. The question is how inconvenient, or how gimped, is the game to play if you pay nothing and how good a job the devs do of creating cash shop items that entice people to spend money in the cash shop which is antethetical to the model that drives development of an all access subscription game.
There is a concept that is in play here called the Pareto Principle (or 80-20 rule) which, simply stated, says that 80% of causes come from 20% of actions. This is so applicable in business that it is often spooky, in general the idea is that 80% of sales come from 20% of items is a mantra in retail for instance. So you are always trying to increase your overall offerings because as you increase the 100% of what you offer the 20% that moves increases the 80% you make. So yes, a F2P game is driven to increase its base appeal to get its 100% up and therefore get its 20% up and the 80% it makes off those 20% up as well. But this applies in the macro as well so the same principle means that they are driven to design more and more and more for sale on the cash shop, to drive more and more need and desire to the cash shop - i.e. 20% of the players that use the cash shop account for 80% of the revenue from the cash shop so get more players to the cash shop to get that to yield more revenue.
Point here being that you can bet not a day goes by in the studio of a F2P game where they are not focusing on how to get more of the playerbase to use the cash shop. And the answer in an MMO is to develop gameplay to entice, cajole, and even require players to, on occasion or reguarly, to use the cash shop. My point is simply that this reality, and it is absolutely naive to not accept this as reality, is contrary to the idea that subscribers in the future model will get the same thing they get now because the above necesarily dictates that over time the game has to change to capitalize on the 80-20 rule with regard to the free players.
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