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Vanguard, and the immersive worlds
Harleking89
Member Posts: 68
Hey there MMORPG.com, first time poster here, long-time lurker (as usual). Nice to meet you!
Have been reading alot of things about MMO's recently, thanks to you guys pretty much. Before that, I've been oblivious to most MMO activity other than WoW pretty much, because WoW is what I've played since almost the beginning of its release. What I think about WoW is not really what this thread is about, but suffice to say, I don't really like it that much anymore... Haven't liked it since WotLK you could say. However, I'm one of two maintanks of my guild, and have been for a long time. They know me well, they trust me, they know what I can do - and I know them. We're friends. And that's the only reason I still play WoW. I highly doubt I'm the only one in this kind of situation.
But enough about that. Two days ago I tried Vanguard. Before that I had no idea that they had a free trial, or perhaps the game just never was "loud" enough. I never paid attention to it, until now that is, quite some years after its release.
This game, is the first fantasy game in years that has managed to CAPTIVATE me, if that's the word. I feel a sense of immersion. The world is absolutely huge, I can see it.
To be honest with you, I remember clearly that I had this very same feeling when I first tried Morrowind. Morrowind was the very first game I played that had a Huge world. A free world. Go and do anything you want, pretty much. It almost made me sick, believe that or not. I had never played anything similar before it, never before a game where I was presented a giant world where there were infinite possibilities. It was unreal, there were SO MANY places to go, so much stuff to do, it literally made feel uneasy. But I LOVED it. I absolutely love feeling that the game world is humongous, but also that you can really go anywhere you want
Vanguard, almost quite made me feel the same way. The difference however, is that Vanguard was made to be played by many. Morrowind was made to be played by one.
Imagine if a game like Vanguard had tons of subscribers. I personally think that this game is one of the most underrated MMO's out there right now. Or perhaps I'm blind and can't see the faults of the game just yet? Yes I know about the release, or I've read about it anyway. It was horrible. And now the amount of players is less than stellar because of it, I guess.
Maybe it's not as good as I think it is, right now, years after its release. Maybe I'm just trying to find something new to replace WoW. Yes, quite possible. But even if that's the case, the feeling that Vanguard gave me was something that other MMO's has failed to give. I have tried WAR, I was there on launch. Nothing like it. Tried EVE aswell, it was actually good, it gave a sense of epicness aswell - but it's not a fantasy medieval world. WoW? Not quite, but I liked the feel and controls alot. Aion? What a joke. There's no immersive feeling in that game to speak of.
I guess that's all I wanted to say. I just wanted to say really that Vanguard was surprising, not what I expected it to be. The reason why I tried it is because I saw quite a few posters in one of the threads saying that Vanguard (plus some more games) is underrated. I can see why now.
Also, a question: Is Everquest 2 anything similar to Vanguard at all? Does it have that feeling, does it have just as many options (or more)? Is the gameworld huge? Tons of options? Because I do know it has more subscribers, and that's good.
All it takes is one bad day.
Comments
Since WOW is pretty much all you ever knew its not surprising Vanguard has blown you away so much. Its a shame it had a terrible launch (and so so support since then) as it should have been a contender.
Games developed w/o focusing on WOW as their template can offer you a wide variety of game mechanics not available in WOW as they were simplified or done away with because they were considered to be time sinks, too boring for the average player or what have you.
But if you get a chance, give a trial to all of the older games you can (DAOC, Lineage 2, EQ2, SWG, EVE and some others) and you might be surprised to find out that you've been missing something.
edit: Also, there's a group of folks from these forums who recently returned to Vanguard and you might want to hook up with them for an instant group to hang with.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
OP, I'm glad you're enjoying VG. Although he made some terrible mistakes, Brad McQuaid and his crew did indeed try to create a game with more depth than WoW and yet try to capture some of it's essence (if only a little bit).
I haven't played EQ2 for quite some time, but the stark difference between EQ2 and VG is that geogrphically speaking EQ2 is created from disjointed zones and instanced dungeons. I mean that each zone is not always geographically located next to its neighbour and you cannot physically see "into" a zone from an adjacent one. AOC also suffers from this issue, even though its pre-decessor doesn't and yet uses the same engine (go figure on that one). This means that whilst the likes of WoW and VG give the player a feeling of a continous world stretching out before player, and thus help to envelope the player in the world around them, EQ2 doesn't.
For me personally, that wasn't the full extent of VG's problems. Some of the world felt as if the content had been stretched over too great an area. Like the world was a little *too* big for the content that had been designed for it. Not only that, the game for me suffered from a lot of performance issues, bugs, glitches and lack of content at high level. No doubt some of these things have been fixed by now. Which comes to another issue: the development team. Its unfortunate that SOE are not investing heavily into VG because it has the potential to be much better. Sadly, it seems that SOE didn't buy VG from Sigil to make it better, they bought it so that no one else could. Thus ensuring the prosperity of their own flagship products (EQ1 and EQ2).
All in all, VG was a good attempt by a later game to re-capture some of the essence that was lost in other later developed products like WoW, AOC, etc. However, it didn't get the formula right due to poor product management before launch.
Brad McQuaid is a good designer, but he should never have been managing the company and the product. That's just my opinion.
And so, if such issues don't concern you, then I wish you all the best and happiness in VG
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Vanguard is a great game. I would say the best I have played since EQ.
I would still be playing If the game didn't continually give me a sense it could be shut down any minute by the powers that be. Specially considering the recent announcement by the devs they have scrapped a lot of content they have been working on indefinitely.
EQ2 is a better game than vanguard, but not as immersive due to terrible lore and how it's presented. While EQ2 has better graphics, vanguard has some really nice art design, especially around the cities, which makes those places feel epic.
Honestly though, if you like Vanguard - play Vanguard. Hopping around trying everything isn't healthy and will lead to you being just another person of many of these forums that are never happy with any game. Sounds like you really enjoy Vanguard. Keep playing it. Who cares what the other games have.
If you love the immersion of Vanguard but want a game with a better population and without some of the outdated design elements - LoTRO is really good.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Agreed. From a short-term perspective SOE saved the product, but on a long term perspective you get the impression that they aren't interested in it much. Would the game had stood a better chance in the hands of another company who is passionate about it? Dunno, perhaps.
Besides, if I recall, the Crafting Dev became the lead designer and I think hes an obnoxious little turd. So that didn't help the game to win me over.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
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Okay men, we have the perfect MMO to compete with WoW. We're going to call it Vanguard.
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How will it kill WoW? Good question.
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We plan on copying EQ1!
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But boss! Look at the chart! When WoW was released, EQ1 tanked!
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Ignore the numbers. What was wrong with EQ1 was out of date graphics! We are going to put in Vanguard state of the art graphics. No! We are going to go beyond state of the art.
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But boss, won't have advanced graphics limit our customer base? WoW runs on most anyth--
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Ha ha ha! Our game will be so awesome our players will upgrade and buy new machines!
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Vanguard is nothing like EQ.
Vanguard was a great game. It had awesome little things hidden inside the game that were hard to find. If you ever got to see end game content, after they actually released it, it was challenging like the first EQ dragon raids. The character selection was great and the lore was definitely there.
Where they went wrong with this game was the opening day. They had the WoW release which already made the customer pool low. Between bugs, lag, and some subscription problems, people were abandoning ship faster than fat kids jumping into Willy Wonkas chocolate river. When SOE announced its take over, that was like setting the life rafts on fire.
The one thing that made me stay for so long was the Pantheon. This was the most unique experience for group interaction and if you could figure out the order of fights with the final boss at end, you got loot according to the challenge. I felt I was paid for putting brain power into something not hundreds of hours of time. Best part was it was mid level content. Did not have to have a high level character to experience this.
Vanguard had potential, but it was never realized. That potential was lost when Brad mismanaged the budget and they ran out of money, therefore they were forced to release the game unfinished. The game never recovered from that. SOE by the way is going to merge all Vanguard servers into one, so you know for sure the game isn't going to be going anywhere. It's going to be sad to see the game die but it's long overdue.
I liked the game in the beginning. I played on the FFA PvP server and the server was very fun back when we had over 2000 players on that server and it was mayhem everywhere. Unfortunately once the initial woo ahhh's were gone, you started to notice the lack of content, lack of polish, lack of testing, and a very poorly performed game engine.
Ever since Sigil failed, many knew the game really wasn't going to get much better because SOE just didn't seem to want to finish the game. It's a game that never had a good chance to show itself, but you really can't blame anybody but the CEO of the company that made it, Brad McQuaid, for messing this one up. He had $30mil to work with, and you don't mismanage that amount of money.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Vanguard, Vanguard, Vanguard, Sigh. To me she is like the girl that you almost dated, but never really dated and you spend the rest of your life lamenting the one that got away wondering if she was the one.
When I look at what I like in MMO's: Flight - the more free form the better; housing - the more customizable in and out the better, lots of classes, great graphics, quests, good crafting.
Vanguard had all of this but for some reason it is boring. Which tells me there is something in my list I haven't added yet because I haven't figured it out.
Every time I try it, and the last one was only a couple months ago. I am completely bored within a day or two. Admittedly the housing is only mediocre, and the character graphics are horrible, but the environmental grahpics are very nice.
For some reason it is just very dull to play. Add that to the fact fhat for some reason 3/5 times when loading up my characters never appeared in the login screen and there was always this annoying hitch when running. The game just became not only boring but irritating to play.
Venge Sunsoar
I believe that things like 'immersion' or 'good community' have to develop naturally in a MMORPG. If you try to force them upon the playerbase through game mechanics, people are not gonna just play along. It will seem fake and forced and result in a backlash. If you provide the players with a solid base and good tools they will helpt those things develop in an 'orgnic' way.
If Vanguard launched today by a developer who was actaully intereste in its success the game would be very good. But the game has had no attention and no marketing ever.
Vanguard could have been a good game but its not people who want to sell us good games that are in charge. Vanguard is a gem that will likely never ever be polished.
The only crime Brad McQuaid should be charge with is running out of money. Had the game been finished, and published by someone who actually cared about thegame this game would be doing just fine and probably carrying 2/3 of the current EQ2 player base.
I tried the game this weekend and quite frankly was a bit disappointed. First off it's not off without any merits:
1) I love the fact that you can see mountains and buildings way off in the distance. It makes it feel like a huge world. That being said the game's graphics do feel dated. Swimming animation is terrible, but I do like the combat ones. (I played a monk and ranger)
2) I got stuck on a rock about an hr into the trial. Not ground breaking, but annoying none the less.
3) The game is HARD. Granted I am not the best gamer out there, but I died alot doing the lvl 5-6 cave on the Isle. I don't mind dying but I got so frustrated at one point after dying about 4 straight times I just logged out.
4) Interface is a bit clunky. I would hit the number for the skill I wanted to use and half the time it seemed as if it wouldn't fire off which may have been the main factor I was dying so much. I wasn't spamming the button, but if it appears the skill is ready it should fire.
5) Like the diplomacy game. It made me think when to play certain cards and choosing cards wisely. Nice side bar to combat. Didn't really craft, but that is because I was mainly seeing if I liked the combat.
I can see why people like this game and see the potential in it, but without anymore dev attention, I can say it's not the game for me.