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On quests, Sandbox theory and MO
TJ_420
Member Posts: 224
I was browsing the MO forums (something I do from time to time) to see what changes (if any) have been implemented and if any of the massive amount of issues I experienced in Beta have been fixed.... A reoccuring theme on that forum is that "MO is a sandbox and sandbox games dont have quests" (or apparently tools, sand, a box or people to play with)....
I will not link a specific post but anyone who asks about quests or anything relating to a living , breathing game World should "go back to Wow" and are made fun of and called "not hardcore enough for this game" or "must not understand what a sandbox is".
We are going to discuss what a Sandbox game is and what a Sandbox game could be and WHY a Sandbox game should be ripe with Quests and HOW these quests SHOULD be implemented.
Imagine (if you will) a system that works as follows.... Please also not that these are suggestions as to how quests could work (and should) a little IMAGINATION could go a long way in breaking the mold of "quests" as they have become in MMORPGs.
Mail System- Each Town and Village has a central "Mailbox". Placing a letter (with attached Items, Money etc) costs the player a Tax that works on a sliding scale between how much the item(s) weigh and the distance they are being sent...The "mail" does not automaticcly go to the destination but must be taken via a "quest" (for lack of a better name) and if nobody takes the "quest" the mail sits.
Now, say I was traveling from Town A to Town B- I could visit the local mail office and speak with a Postmaster NPC and tell him my destination (via a list of all Towns connected to the Mail system) he would then tell me how much pay I would recieve for delivering the Mail (based on Half of the 'tax' folks have paid to send their letter/package) and I could decide if it was worth it to carry the mail with me on the trip.
Several things would have to be done to insure that this wouldnt be used to cheat/grief/exploit etc.... For instance a time limit would have to be imposed so nobody takes the mail and logs off or doesnt deliver it... The person who takes the quest has X amount of time (not to turn it into a rush but something like three times the average trip to town X) and failing the Quest would give negative rep towards the "postmasters faction" (whatever) and by getting a low enough rep with them, you will no longer be able to acess the mail system until you raise your rep.
Also, insurance would need to be paid in advance by the Mail carrier (the person who accepts the quest) which would be a deposit that they would get back (plus more) on a succesful mail delivery. It could be explained that each mail office has a "wizard" who uses the "deposit" for runes to "teleport" the mail back to the post office in case it does not reach its destination on time- Thus the mail carrier who fails loses the deposit, gains negative rep and the Mail returns to its point of origin for a new person to attemmpt the quest.
Concerning "realism"- Write it into the lore (how it works)- Perhaps all the towns with a mail system were build on node lines which allow the wizads to teleport small, non living things back to their point of origine (but no forward to a new destination)- The beauty about a fantasy gamne is that even in a low Magic setting the lore can be used to explain things which might not be realistic here on earth but can be written in to improve the fun factor.
Tis would mean there would be a "sweet spot" for mail delevery- Supply and demand if you will. Mailing a letter in a small Village may take days of real time to be delivered (because so few letters are sent from that locale that the mail must "build up" to make it worth sending) where as the larger cities will hit that "sweet spot" much faster and may have several deliveries a day to different destinations.
THIS is a living , breathing world type quest.
-OR-
NPCs operate on a supply/demand basis. A lumber centric economy (a town based on lumber and related indistrys) will not just have its npcs buy infinite stacks of wood for a set price but rather a "sliding scale"- The first 500 wood that the npc buys per day/week (these are all approiximations which would need adjusted) he pays top dollar for- The next 500 wood he buys that day/week he pays half price. The next 500 wood he pays 1/4 price and finally he refuses to buy anymore wood that week/day..... BUT an NPC in a city far from a place far from a forest would have pay much higher amounts for the same wood.
This would not be difficult to implement at all (I scripted a system like this on RPGVX for a single player RPG) and could have lots of interesting "twists" added using variables. Each hour an NPC could have a 1 in 1000 chance of offering 1 of 100 (or so) quests- For instance, the NPC who buys lumber in the lumber centric Village rolls a random number every hour, if that number is 1 another roll is made to see what his dillema is THEN when someone speaks with him (probably to sell wood) he would say something like "The town is very low on fish- If you could bring a shipment of Fish to me I will pay you X"- This quest would be offered to everyone speaking to the NPC until the quest is accepted and then it goes away until the random variables are rolled again (ensuring that the quests are almost never repeaated and are few and far between)
-OR-
Each week (real time) the "mayor" of the town/village makes a random roll- a 1 out of 100 will open up a "weekly town quest" which also will be randomly rolled from 1 of 10 or so quests which would fit the area. Maybe a bounty is being paid for Wolf hides (up to a certain limit) or the Town Armory needs 200 War axes and will pay top dollar- The point is, the low chance of a "town quest" happening along with randomness would ensure that it would ADD to the living , breathing world rather that a guy sitting there 24/7 wanting "10 rats killed".
Now, use your imagination a bit- There are many ways to include quests in a Sandbox which ADD to the game. "Quests" need to break the mold set by WOW and not jst be removed and explained away as "thats what WOW does" - Do it DIFFRENTLY, dont think that quests HAVE to be done like WOW or WOW clones.... Change it up..... Quests in games should be evolving and just because the su7ck right now in all MMOs does not mean they have to- Just change how the work.
NOW, let us discuss "Sandbox" games and why MO has no sand and is destined for failure.
First, UO.... Why did UO work and what make it special to us? The devs at SV seem to think it was only full loot and little direction given. It wasnt. In fact, the very reason UO worked is being shunned by the devs and the community. UO worked because it was filled with players of all kinds. Carebears played UO, Casuals played UO, RPers played UO, griefers played UO- ALL TYPES PLAYED UO because there was not much else availible. This gave us a "World" with players of all type and mentality and differing goals and differing ways to experience the "World" were all brought together under one game.... UO would not work today.
The reason UO would not work in this day and age is that there is so much competition out there and MO is being marketed as "hardcore and full loot" and not much for anybody else. MO will attract one kind of player only. Others may try the game but they will quicly leave as there is nothing to do but PVP... MO is a buggy Darkall clone and the ONLY reason it even will have some people playing is because DF is impossible to catch up in and MO offers a clean slate to start.
You NEED the carebear players, dedicated crafters, casuals etc. to give you a "world" and yet you shun and chase them away. hat does MO offer for someone not interested in PVP? There is no was to affect the world, nothing to do but craft some gear so you can PVP.... This is not a sandbox, nor will it ever be. Even if it COULD be a sandbox, you have chased away or not provided any tools for anyone not iterested in PVP.... This is going to be a disaster.
As I said, UO worked because ALL types of players were there to contribute to the World. A UO clone in full 3D will not work today because the competition is so great in the Market (at the heyday of UO there was like 3 choices of MMOs that were not Text MUDS- Meridian 59, EQ and UO).... UO cannot be cloned and expected t work in todays Market, UO must be EXPANDED upon to appeal to more than the 'hardcore'- MO has not expanded upon or even cloned UO, they took a couple concepts of UO and left out so much that made UO great that it isnt funny.
[Mod Edit]
Comments
lol- Actually "wall of text" is when there are no breaks in a long post- Not just a long post.
...Can I pls have my underwear back now. =P
Edit: Rlm- I am not suggesting MO go carebear at all (I actualy agree on Henrick on that one) but rather they add non combat activities, RP costumes- Things to do to gather a wider audience than gankers and griefers.... Make a sandbox in other words.
I like the full loot idea- But its the only feature, lol... Give the carebears and casuals and RPers some tools to give the "world" some culture and diversity.
Interesting, I agree with your creativity regarding the mailman quest system for a sandbox, but not so much with the random generated mayor/town quests unless they are also based on the actions of the players in the town:
the more repairs made at the blacksmith, the more coal, ore, etc he needs.
Town walls destroyed, mayor NOW gives quest to gather wood/stone for repairs, or gives 'quests' for players to repair the walls themselves.
I also agree that 'sandbox' mmo's have become more to mean "no content" mmo's. The 'tools' of a true sandbox need to allow AS WELL as encourage players to partake in roles other than combat domination.
Game run mail interface -brought by players
Game run vendors/merchants - supplied by players
Game run caravan masters for supply routes - protected/arranged by players.
Ability to post messages on signposts
Game run Criers to deliver short messages to townsfolk
Game run bounty hunter masters that both accept and give bounties for the heads of players for whatever cost.
Player quest creation interface to give quests to others. Basically an advanced trade window where a reward is held in escrow until the quest is completed, once both sides agree the exchange is made.
Game run 'Guard Master' who gives quests based on the towns needs.
Depending solely on the players to make the most out of what is possible to do is a really steep slope to success. But as for MO, I thought I read something about guild leaders being able to give quests and such? If that is expanded to having concrete places that players can set up things like "bounty hunting office" or "Pony express" where a player could control a 24/7 npc to take orders, I think that a game like MO stands a chance. They do have a pretty dedicated RP community it seems, I expect it will be up to them to make MO feel like a 'sandbox' in the months after release until other features are released.
If they lose steam however it will indeed be left as another shallow 'full loot pvp' skirmish engine.
UO,AC1&2,EQ1&2,DAOC,SB,SWG,FFXI, Horizons,EvE,E&B,AO,WoW,VG, Lineage,GW,TR,LotR,AoC,CoH,DDO a myriad of FtP...and still looking...
Good point, that is what Henrik (SV's CEO) said. They will no go "carebear" even if they can't pay their bills:
Fantastic ideals.... This is kinda my point. Mention quests and the evidently unimaginitive assume you mean "kil 10 rats" and NPCs with a big floating mark above their head.
Its thinking outside the box (something MO seems to have difficulty with) and evolving what quests actually mean to make them a functioning part of the world.
I threw out the ranndom generated quests more as an idea of how quests can be used to not be static- Obviously MO cannot reprogranm to add all these things but mention "quests" on the MO forum and you are bashed and told "this is a sandbox" or "go back to wow for quests"-
If NPCs populate the world, make them interesting and part of the world or DO NOT HAVE ANY NPC's. A fully player driven world MO is not since npcs buy unlimited amounts of resourses (hindering supply and demand)- Its just about being a bit creative and expanding upon how quests can be dynamic and add to the world.
Hopefully someone gets it right.
And in all honesty the most hardcore sandbox game out right now is Dofus on a heroic server. Way more hardcore than MO just very diffrent. It has perma death (thats realism)- You die you lose your character. I personally dont play as I wouldnt want to spend time working on a toon for him to just die and me to lose all my hard work BUT you see alot less idiots ganking (yes its pvp) and a much more cooperative community as a result.
Edit: excuse the bad spelling and typos- I think my keyboard is about to break or I am just typing to fast lol.
UO wasn't the only good FFA loot PVP back then and was skill based asheron call 1 and its still around to bad its 10yrs old..
But AC1 was hard core on our PVP server Darktide sadly turbine ran it in teh ground but warner bros is trying to bring it back to life but back in the day , most of the care bears didn;'t dream to play AC 1 on the PVP server so...
We had quests we had PVP and FFA and for me it was the best PVP FFA hands down, even the PVE the fear of dieing you had to loot your body.. as well. Today even in PVE there is no fea rof dieing in AC you hand a fear of dieing even on the PVE servers, because you could lose good items....
I have yet to see another game since UO and AC1 do this again and did it right.... I'm still waiting......and I bet I will be waiting for yrs to come as I watch MO for 2 yrs to watch this train wreck what a disappointment and I was in CB not OB...
I hope it changes I don't wish it to be bad trust me, but it looks that way.,. I agree no sand to play with in this game, game looks pretty and thats it... looks like another Aion all about looks.. Todays game's for PVP wise are crap.. Most of the companys I don't think have ever even seen old school real PVP like UO, and AC1 sadly most of them are prolly in diapers still sadly..
mortal online is to be a sandbox oriented game because
1.it has a open world.
2.there are no levels.
3.there are more then 1 thing to do
4. you do not have to DO quests and level up to get to the next area.
5.you are free to do everything at the start as long as you have the skills.
6.players have tools to do things, like area control, housing and many other features and crafting.
7. the world is run by players unlike world of warcraft for example you can not change the world but in mortal online you can, if you kill that epic boss it will never come back for example and so players may try to defend it or use its powers against others or another guild may use it to expand their power and control resources and impose a taxation on others in their area.
mortal online will expand to become a true sandbox after the pvp is out of the way and balanced, right now the beta is pvp oriented and pvp is one of its core features and sv want to get all core features done and dusted before they work on the pve and other things to do side.
So at least you agree that as it stand NOW Mortal Online is not a true sandbox. We differ in that you believe it will become one and I don't, but we both agree that it isn't one now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
of course that now is sandbox oriented and it doesnt have all the features that made uo a sandbox like farming etc but i would say that it will become one eventully with future patches once the core features are out of the way.
So you agree that it ISN'T a true sandbox now...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Think hes saying the core features arent even fully implemented yet.
once SV have finished polishing the core features then they will be out of the way , no one said anything about features not being fully implemented.
can you please try say something constructive for once.
>>2.there are no levels
Sandbox games can have levels.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I think it could be possible, but it would restrain some of the sandboxing.
How about The Sims? Spore?
derrr?
He who keeps his cool best wins.
This is what I perceive to be the issue with defining what a sandbox is, you cannot stick labels on it. Having the above-mentioned features in and of itself does not make it a sandbox, since some of the above features exist in "theme-park" titles too. WoW has an open world, you can do more than one thing, you can craft items etc. On the other hand, having no levels does not make MO a sandbox because there is still a hard skill cap that limits the power your character can achieve, no different to a level cap.
For me, the difference between a sandbox and a theme-park title is the level of interaction between the world and the player. A sandbox title allows greater interaction, giving the player the opportunity to alter and influence the world and create their own good times, while a theme park MMO has a static experience designed to provide the same stock good time to everyone. As such, I feel that if anything, a sandbox title needs MORE content than a theme park title because a large portion of the fun comes in playing around and seeing what you can do with that content rather than just absorbing it and moving on.
Let's take GTA as an example of what I perceive to be a good sandbox title. Liberty City is a fully fleshed out, living, breathing city. NPCs walk about on their routines, prostitutes hang out on street corners, muggers occasionally beat someone up, the police patrol around catching them, rival gangs open fire on each other. There is a LOT going on in that city. That is why it is so fun to steal a helicopter and fly around a bit to see what's going on before dropping a grenade somewhere inconvenient just to see what happens. Ok, so you cannot have a real lasting impact on the city given that 5 minutes later that mini ground zero you created will vanish like nothing happened, but my point stands.
Now imagine that you removed all the NPCs from the city so it was just empty. Would you have the same amount of fun? Of course not. You can throw rockets around, blow stuff up, but what's the point? For me, the fun in a sandbox comes from seeing what happens when you mess around with the world presented to you and more importantly how it reacts and evolves as a result. Mortal Online doesn't have a "world" as such, just lots of static grass and trees. This is why I feel that some people have mistaken a bland, empty game for a sandbox title, and why MO fails as a sandbox in my eyes.
And this is the best post i've seen today.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Further to my earlier post just above, I'll go into a bit more detail as to what exactly it is I mean when I say that MO "lacks content" and why this is nothing to do with it being a sandbox title.
As I said above, I firmly believe that having no content is not indicative of a good sandbox title. The misconception as far as I'm concerned is that the game is like a blank wall which the players then decorate how they like. This is completely missing the point of a good sandbox MMO. The "blank wall" approach might work well for something like Little Big Planet where players literally create their own worlds and levels out of nothing, but as a basis for an MMO in the vein of Mortal Online it's horribly inadequate.
For an MMO where players all live out their avatars' lives in the same, persistent world, I believe that the absolutely key element of the game should be the world itself. After all, this is what the players will be interacting with and (hopefully) trying to mould and play around with. Even in a self-styled PvP-orientated game like MO, the ultimate goal for the player is to establish some kind of influence over the world. Rather than presenting the playerbase with a void in which to create their own levels, the game should be giving the players a fully fleshed world for them to go nuts in and do as they wish with.
This is where my claim of a lack of content comes in. Mortal Online's world is barren, nobody can doubt that. It's a few square kilometres of open terrain with a smattering of gazelles and weasles, and a few towns which consist largely of a wall, some empty buildings, a few crafting tables and some vending machines disguised as NPCs. I'd argue that the world is even more rigid and static than World of Warcraft where at least they've tried some primitive form of player interaction with phasing and open-world PvP objectives.
Asides from building stuff, there is no interaction between the player and the world. There isn't anything to actually interact with. You cannot attack the NPC towns because the lictors just one-shot everyone, and even if you could, all you'd do is kill a few of the inanimate vending machines which will soon respawn. All interaction is supposed to be between the players, but without the framework of a fully fleshed-out world worth fighting over, there is no context for it to take place in. It might as well be an FPS in the mould of Unreal Tournament, with everyone just blowing each other up in the same arena over and over again for the mere sake of doing it.
This is why Mortal Online fails as a sandbox MMO in my opinion, they've approached it from completely the wrong angle and I'm wondering how long it will take before people get bored of scribbling stuff on the wall and start wishing they had something that was a bit more responsive and interactive. Not long I'm guessing.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
Once again... you hit the bullseye.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@Tj ...
Cool ideas about the mail q's and town q's.
Any reason why these can only be implemented in sandbox and not, for a lack of better word, themepark mmo's?
Or do these kind of q's make an mmo automatically sandbox?
Just wondering.
I.
I'd say that they could be easily implemented into a themepark MMO, and no they do not make a game a sandbox. I think the OP (correct me if I'm wrong) is trying to suggest that quests can rise organically based on events in the game. For example, if a roving band of outlaws sets up camp outside a town, a quest might be generated there to have someone kick them out. That, to me, demonstrates an element of interaction between the player and the world, and the world responding to player interference (that band of outlaws could be kicked out, and moved on to another town for example), hence sandbox.
thx for the completly troll post first off it will have quests... a few...very few mainly to make u blue agean
any other quest will be made by players THAT IS THE MEANING OF SANDBOX STYLE GAMES!!!!!!!!!
so as alot ofpeople have said before stay with wow my friend if u can't find a quest (witch if ur a crafter is realy easy) or mad about being killed after wondering out side and get killed well don't play
because i will personaly hire myrm to pwn u 100x over because ur just a wow nerd (or any of the other wow copys) and is mad because this game is gonna be the next best thing
also im hearing alot of complaints about graphix the devs made it clear that the games max settings where only medium,,, and alot of the bugs are gone... aka the lag and D/C witch pissed alot of people off even me
new monsters are in the game and areas
they have this... exept they want a player to hire other players to do it not some random npc with a ! over his head
Ok, first off it was never intended as a troll post, it was an attempt at constructive criticism aimed at provoking a wider debate about the nature of sandbox titles. If you can't handle discussion of this nature then don't attempt to, and just go back to "pwning wow nerds" in the game.
Secondly, having no quests does not define what a "sandbox" game is. If you removed every quest from WoW, would it suddenly be a sandbox title? The definition of what makes a game a sandbox is not the number of quests it has, plenty of good sandbox games have quests in.
As I've detailed in earlier posts, for me a sandbox title is defined by the level of interaction a player has with the world, and their ability to change it. The point that the OP is making is that quests provide players with one way of interfacing with the world and thus altering it. I agree with the OP here in that MO's lack of quests and very empty world actually HINDERS its ability to shine as a sandbox title because it leaves the player with very little to play around with.
In short, MO's world is (currently) little more than an arena for players to beat each other over the head in. Sure, players can form guilds and build a keep, but at the end of the day they're still just running around killing each other while MO's world continues existing as it always has, largely oblivious to the PvP.