I'm not understanding how anyone can think this is a bad thing. I just don't *****get it.
We don't know that what they have planned will be bad or good at this point. We can only assume. And if you are assuming the best scenario and some are assuming the worst, how hard is that to undersatnd?
I guess I don't understand it because its stupid. The are releasing information a "x" and people are automatically assuming that "y" doesn't exist, regardless of the fact they've said "yes 'y' does exist".
It would be one thing if they came out and said... no, we are not going to have this, this, and this... we are focusing on that. But that hasn't been the case at all.
It would be like if a car commercial was on TV showing off a really nice interior, a slick design, some nice leather seats, etc... but they didn't show the engine... and then everyone freaked out because "zomg there isn't an engine, they didn't show it to me, the car will never work without an engine!! The designers are so stupid".
Meanwhile anyone with a lick of sense just rolls their eyes.
It's not that the car doesn't have an engine - it's whether that engine is a good engine; or whether it is underpowered, gets terrible mileage, and occasionally catches on fire.
We know the game will (probably) have PvP, crafting, and end game content; because BioWare said it would. Just like Cryptic said STO would have crafting and exploration. Which it does - it just happens to suck.
unfortunately u r partially right about one thing. WE will hype this game up one way or another untill our expectations get so high that they can never come close to matching them, ultimately we will be the source of our own disapointment. the gameing industry could release a game of the quality of the game in the movie "the lawnmower man" with total imersive virtual reality, and we will bitch about haveing to wear the helmet
unfortunately u r partially right about one thing. WE will hype this game up one way or another untill our expectations get so high that they can never come close to matching them, ultimately we will be the source of our own disapointment. the gameing industry could release a game of the quality of the game in the movie "the lawnmower man" with total imersive virtual reality, and we will bitch about haveing to wear the helmet
i lol'ed at that. but you're right unfortunately heh
unfortunately u r partially right about one thing. WE will hype this game up one way or another untill our expectations get so high that they can never come close to matching them, ultimately we will be the source of our own disapointment.
I won't. After going through the process with WH Online - I will never have unreasonable expectations about any MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by greed0104 Yeah?Me write my own film and adventures? forgive me while I laugh a little... K, listen, you can sit there all you want and write in your little e-blog about your toon being a Saber Knight, who was once a slave child all you want.
He didn't mean write as in to literally pen it out dude... though from what i see from your post's "missing the point" is your standard MO when it comes to counterarguments. Ever heard of sandbox content?
But for me, it's not acceptable. I want the option, get that, option, to kill things when they piss me off. Writing in some silly biography, or role-playing doesn't do it for me. I want a movie.
What exactly are you saying here?
That you want totally free PvE? Bioware have never allowed you to even attack much less kill any npc freely in any of their games and have not hinted anything regarding this for TOR, so on what exactly are you basing this?
That you want open PvP? ... well it would be a cold day in hell if BIOWARE would release the first AAA MMO with open PvP. One can surely hope... but let's be a tad more realistic.
You say you want option then you say you want a movie... how exactly do you connect those two statements in the same argument? the only options a movie provides are 1) Watch it and 2) Don't watch it.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided.
.... A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I upped this post and took out the most striking conclusions about why the more popular and succesful MMo's are being played today.
I would recommend the Bioware developper in the OP to re read it several times before attacking the gameplay of MMo's.
And I don't agree with these posters saying that the pre recorded voice and in game cinematics of NPC's giving quests in AoC contributed anything to the long term playing value of that game.
Imagine having to endure hundreds of cut in cinematics of NPC's talking to you with the usual AI of a plant for every quest and fixed story interaction you make.
The guy above made a perfect analysis of what really is an mmorpg. Be it theme parc, sandbox or ftp Facebook kind of game.
Bravo. You nailed the longevity of MMo's perfectly.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I dunno, I think the man has a right to his opinion. He makes games, he should be able to communicate how he feels. Why does everyone feel a need to tear stuff apart rather than just taking it for what it was... his opinion. He has a vision hidden within there, trying to tell us he wants to do things differently but everyone wigs out like they can't handle it - HOW DARE HE!? How dare you? Threads like this is what separates players from developers. Not only do you attack his opinion but the whole game! There is a large group of developers working on TOR and if everyone of them posted their opinion, we'd probably agree with less than half - but with thier ideas combined, they can make a great game.
The way I see it this will be some kind of new type of mmo. I will aproach this game as a single player game which have many mmo elements which is fine by me. Imagine Mass Effect had some mmo elements, a beautiful single player experience which you could share with others. It did sold 2 million copies so the community would be big. I am not expecting the typical mmo we've been played but a rich story-lore wise game. I enjoyed other bioware game's because of that and I think I'll enjoy this too.
Pretty much what I have been saying.
I am pretty sure( like 99.984753291% sure) the SP part will be good . More than worth the box price, and any sub time it takes to run all the content.
Bonus if it has a great MMO attached. If not, then I will re-sub each time they have additions/expansions.
And Kyl.....normally I agree with ya. That said, you can drop the EVE luving in this thread. This isnt a sandbox game, and the typical gamer this is being aimed at could give a chit less about that sandbox. I understand they appeal to a niche of folks, like you, but for the themepark fans we dont give a chit about EVE and its forced PVP/virtual reality economy.
This will have trades....this will have PVP. PVP is optional, and the focus is on adventure classes. Which sounds good to me.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided.
.... A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I upped this post and took out the most striking conclusions about why the more popular and succesful MMo's are being played today.
I would recommend the Bioware developper in the OP to re read it several times before attacking the gameplay of MMo's.
And I don't agree with these posters saying that the pre recorded voice and in game cinematics of NPC's giving quests in AoC contributed anything to the long term playing value of that game.
Imagine having to endure hundreds of cut in cinematics of NPC's talking to you with the usual AI of a plant for every quest and fixed story interaction you make.
The guy above made a perfect analysis of what really is an mmorpg. Be it theme parc, sandbox or ftp Facebook kind of game.
Bravo. You nailed the longevity of MMo's perfectly.
so what ur saying is the secret of longevity is mind numbing repetitive grinding? farmville fits the mold for the same people who spend hours playing wow without ever leaving dalaran or one of the other major cities. they are afraid they are going to miss something. Farmville is a free diversion that allows them to sit on facebook for hours on end without haveing to blankly stare at their wall waiting for something to happen or someone else to log on. the remedy for that is to actually connect with the outside world. the computer doesnt have to be your only connection to a social life. but then again, u are free to stay hidden away, droneing on in tedium like a mindless factory worker who knows when they make 6000 pieces they will go home. yep, it passes the time, but it leaves u feeling a little more dead every day. while some cases can be made for the security of repetition and routine in ones life, it's ok to aspire for more when u r paying to be entertained.i love watching repeats of south park, but that doesnt mean i dont look forward to finally getting a new episode on a regular basis
I dunno, I think the man has a right to his opinion. He makes games, he should be able to communicate how he feels. Why does everyone feel a need to tear stuff apart rather than just taking it for what it was... his opinion. He has a vision hidden within there, trying to tell us he wants to do things differently but everyone wigs out like they can't handle it - HOW DARE HE!? How dare you? Threads like this is what separates players from developers. Not only do you attack his opinion but the whole game! There is a large group of developers working on TOR and if everyone of them posted their opinion, we'd probably agree with less than half - but with thier ideas combined, they can make a great game.
beautifully said... they devs should be excited.. like i said in earlier posts.. they are makeing the game THEY want to play.. musicians make music THEY want to hear... you can enjoy it too if you want, but ultimately, if u dont like it, go make your own music. avatar was heavily hyped, cost way too much money, critics said it couldnt live up to the hype, cameron was pretty excited when he talked about it, said it would change movie making. george lucas was able to retain almost total control over star wars content because movie studios had such low expectations for it to live up to his hype.... seems to me, they both were able to carve out a little niche for themselves with their wild ideas. i'm certain a no-name company like bioware- when teamed up with a small niche company like lucas arts, will be able to scartch out a meager profit on this minor first time endeavor.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided.
.... A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I upped this post and took out the most striking conclusions about why the more popular and succesful MMo's are being played today.
I would recommend the Bioware developper in the OP to re read it several times before attacking the gameplay of MMo's.
And I don't agree with these posters saying that the pre recorded voice and in game cinematics of NPC's giving quests in AoC contributed anything to the long term playing value of that game.
Imagine having to endure hundreds of cut in cinematics of NPC's talking to you with the usual AI of a plant for every quest and fixed story interaction you make.
The guy above made a perfect analysis of what really is an mmorpg. Be it theme parc, sandbox or ftp Facebook kind of game.
Bravo. You nailed the longevity of MMo's perfectly.
so what ur saying is the secret of longevity is mind numbing repetitive grinding? farmville fits the mold for the same people who spend hours playing wow without ever leaving dalaran or one of the other major cities. they are afraid they are going to miss something. Farmville is a free diversion that allows them to sit on facebook for hours on end without haveing to blankly stare at their wall waiting for something to happen or someone else to log on. the remedy for that is to actually connect with the outside world. the computer doesnt have to be your only connection to a social life. but then again, u are free to stay hidden away, droneing on in tedium like a mindless factory worker who knows when they make 6000 pieces they will go home. yep, it passes the time, but it leaves u feeling a little more dead every day. while some cases can be made for the security of repetition and routine in ones life, it's ok to aspire for more when u r paying to be entertained.i love watching repeats of south park, but that doesnt mean i dont look forward to finally getting a new episode on a regular basis
Nope, I didn't say anything what you would like to have me say.
I quoted knyghttearer for his perfect analysis why people play MMo's for many years. Reread what he wrote above about persistence and the famous gameplay of the more succesful MMo's.
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Dozens of MMO companies have tried to solve the "point" issue with "story". Bioware is not the first to make this statement that MMO's have no point and if they just had a story more people would play them. It sounds logical upfront. "Yeah, MMO's need story. They're pointless because they don't have story!" Yet I posit this back, Bioware thinks MMO's need a point because Bioware has no idea how to build a game that doesn't have story in it. Period.
The proof? WoW. WoW's story is nonsensical, delivered to players in a fashion where most of them skip it (quick quest text anyone? It's on by default now). And for those instances where story is forced on the player, some scene acted out, most wish it was skippable the 600th time they are watching it.
MMO's are /lifetime/ games. You cannot physically build enough story content that for the lifetime it is is played the players don't repeat the content. And once you repeat story, it falls flat. It's only really good the first time. Exceptional story pieces might be enjoyablet he second or third time but after that... not so much. Take Age of Conan's excellent Tortage area. It's pretty impressive the first time you play it. But if you decide to roll an alt you'll be pulling your hair out.
MMO's can benefit from good story but the best way to tell a story in an MMO is with the world itself. Some of the best areas, instances and quests I ever did in MMO's are those that without a single piece of dialog managed to tell me a story. Nektropos castle in EQII is a superb example of an entire zone who by the very act of doing what is necessary to finish it, tells you a story and is enjoyable to do many times over both for the named encounters and the random chance at great gear for its level. Numerous end game instances in many MMO's follow this model as well, EQII is by no means the only one that's tried it.
The reality is an MMO is NOT a single player game. The motivations for why players play them are very very different. It's a social experience, it's a clique experience too. It's also a reward/gratification model. Popularity contest, what have you. Some, like me and my friends, often play for the content challenge, to experience the game mechanics and the cooperative gamplay elements and ultimately in some ways it comes down to "Why did he climb the mountain? Because it was there." And then some want the open world experience, a realm, environment to roleplay and escape to, to be a part of.
Ultimately story MMO's have to deal with a very large MMO problem these days. Linearity. Linear MMO's destroy the multiplayer experience. You see this most say, in WoW's linear quest design. It becomes nearly impossible to keep a group of people together through the content as quests are very linear. Someone is always behind and therefor someone is always backtracking to help out or moving on and leaving their friends behind. How Bioware intends to solve this problem, to keep an MMO which should be social, from being one giant single player game, is beyond me.
I'm not trying to Poopoo Bioware, I am hoping they make a fantastic game and I expect to buy and play it. However I disagree vehemantly that what MMO's have been missing all along is story and a point. WoW has minimal story a nd point and no one will argue against its success and/or quality. What MMO's have been missing is not story, but quality innovative social gameplay in settings players enjoy and that are as high quality and polished as the experiences they are currently enjoying.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided.
.... A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I upped this post and took out the most striking conclusions about why the more popular and succesful MMo's are being played today.
I would recommend the Bioware developper in the OP to re read it several times before attacking the gameplay of MMo's.
And I don't agree with these posters saying that the pre recorded voice and in game cinematics of NPC's giving quests in AoC contributed anything to the long term playing value of that game.
Imagine having to endure hundreds of cut in cinematics of NPC's talking to you with the usual AI of a plant for every quest and fixed story interaction you make.
The guy above made a perfect analysis of what really is an mmorpg. Be it theme parc, sandbox or ftp Facebook kind of game.
Bravo. You nailed the longevity of MMo's perfectly.
so what ur saying is the secret of longevity is mind numbing repetitive grinding? farmville fits the mold for the same people who spend hours playing wow without ever leaving dalaran or one of the other major cities. they are afraid they are going to miss something. Farmville is a free diversion that allows them to sit on facebook for hours on end without haveing to blankly stare at their wall waiting for something to happen or someone else to log on. the remedy for that is to actually connect with the outside world. the computer doesnt have to be your only connection to a social life. but then again, u are free to stay hidden away, droneing on in tedium like a mindless factory worker who knows when they make 6000 pieces they will go home. yep, it passes the time, but it leaves u feeling a little more dead every day. while some cases can be made for the security of repetition and routine in ones life, it's ok to aspire for more when u r paying to be entertained.i love watching repeats of south park, but that doesnt mean i dont look forward to finally getting a new episode on a regular basis
Nope, I didn't say anything what you would like to have me say.
I quoted knyghttearer for his perfect analysis why people play MMo's for many years. Reread what he wrote above about persistence and the famous gameplay of the more succesful MMo's.
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
KNYGHTTEARER:whispers: hey bobbadud.. nice f'n garden.. needs more corn
happy? u quoted me, thank you, but u dont agree with me. farmville is a simulator, not an mmo. "persistence playing" isnt an mmo. it's killing time. swtor maynot be a mmo either by some people's definition, but the fact is it has the same characteristics as every other game out now. lets look forward to what "could " be with eager anticipation instead of being worried about what it wont be. read my previous post about avatar and the star wars movies. the standard that says u CAN live up to and even exceed the hype has already been set. will TOR do it? we will eventually find out. if it doesn't? then we will all move on to disecting the next game... you have to admit.... this is fun
In their defense, most people couldn't stick with the grind of FFXI long enough to find the amazing story and beautiful cinematics.
Playing FFXI reminded me of the movie "There will be blood."
Very long periods of boredom and absolutely nothing exciting happening then brilliant moments of well crafted story... followed by more long periods of boredom and non-excitement.
Trust me I would have loved to have liked that game lol just didn't happen.
In their defense, most people couldn't stick with the grind of FFXI long enough to find the amazing story and beautiful cinematics.
Playing FFXI reminded me of the movie "There will be blood."
Very long periods of boredom and absolutely nothing exciting happening then brilliant moments of well crafted story... followed by more long periods of boredom and non-excitement.
Trust me I would have loved to have liked that game lol just didn't happen.
I gotta say the story started off pretty uninteresting and unimportant, but still, that kind of statement is an insult to any of those half a million players that have experienced it fully .
They should stick to their "first MMO to bring multiple dialogue options and full voiceovers" talk, imo.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
In their defense, most people couldn't stick with the grind of FFXI long enough to find the amazing story and beautiful cinematics.
Playing FFXI reminded me of the movie "There will be blood."
Very long periods of boredom and absolutely nothing exciting happening then brilliant moments of well crafted story... followed by more long periods of boredom and non-excitement.
Trust me I would have loved to have liked that game lol just didn't happen.
I gotta say the story started off pretty uninteresting and unimportant, but still, that kind of statement is an insult to any of those half a million players that have experienced it fully .
They should stick to their "first MMO to bring multiple dialogue options and full voiceovers" talk, imo.
No insult meant my good friend. I know many great things about FFXI and am very happy those half a million players enjoyed it so greatly, I always wished I could be one of them... but after SWG and WoW and every other MMO I played I just could not get into FFXI..
Still, back on topic, I do think they (Bioware) has the right idea in show casing a good story in a MMO. I know I'll play ToR just for the story, even if they MMO aspects are terrible.
The game won't retain my sub of course if the MMO aspects are not there, but I'll play long enough to finish my story arcs just cause it's a Bioware story in the KOTOR universe.
By reading that article it seems that Bioware has completely missunderstood the point of MMORPGs. They seem to think that an MMORPG is an RPG with single player storylines played over the internet but that is not correct.
An MMORPG is a persistant, online world where your character lives rather than playing through story arcs that does not affect the world, at all. So to me it sounds like Bioware is just going to put their single player games on a server and then think they have an MMORPG. That is completely wrong way of looking at the genre.
Asking what is the point of an MMORPG is like asking what is the point of life? There is no single one answer to that beside to say it is subjective, depending on what you want to do with your life. Same as with MMORPGs, what do you want to do with your virtual life? Certainly it should not be to play through single player story arcs, why play an MMORPG for that?
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
Lore is part of it. However the real reason that WoW is successful is because it became mainstream media. WoW is successful because a number of reasons. It's made by a good company (like Bioware), it has a series with lore it's based upon (like KOTOR), it's system requirements are quite low (more people are able to play) and it is pretty solid by way of very little bugs or glitches.
Saying that, I'm going to again say that I'm going to back Bioware to the end. I believe they can make the quality product that we're hoping for. One that will feel like Star Wars, one that we can share together for a long time.
I disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate gameplay is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own unique idenity, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with most MMO's isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
I like stories in my games. I remember when story was important in an MMO. A game doesn't have to be a themepark to be story focused. Asheron's Call had a story that evolved over time. Every month different events would be occuring and people of all levels would have new content involved with them. A lot of you just haven't experienced a good story focused game, and have become so jaded by completely unfocused games that should have been story focused, like AoC, that you can't imagine a good one.
It can be done. Whether SW:TOR will be the game to do it is yet to be seen, but I certainly would not count them out.
Saying that, I'm going to again say that I'm going to back Bioware to the end. I believe they can make the quality product that we're hoping for. One that will feel like Star Wars, one that we can share together for a long time.
I don't believe most of the people with negative attitudes towards TOR are doubting that Bioware will release a quality game. Most of the concerns are about the direction of that quality and the potential effects this might have to the end result. I am sure most if not all in this thread want a solid SW MMO more than anything.
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
Don't confuse "story" with "lore". These are two completely separate things.
Lore is the background which is timeless and ultimately static. Stories are always time-bound. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end.
What I've been arguing during this whole thread is that "stories" are bad for mmos, precisely because of their time-based structure which is at odds with mmo persistence which is the defining quality of the medium. Lore on the other hand is perfectly in concord with mmo paradigm.
Imo a "perfect" mmo would have massive amounts of very rich and deep lore and no "stories" at all. (At least no dev-designed stories involving players themselves).
That argument is getting old, that Bioware is a newbie on the MMO market and doesn't know what it is doing. Blizzard was a newbie on the MMO market, still they managed to come up with the spectacular success that was World of Warcraft.
BioWare is new on the MMO scene. They've never developed and released a MMO before, thus, they're new and unproven in that market. That's a fact.
Blizzard's success is, by far, the exception - not the rule. It's an anomaly, not the norm. And, mind you, WoW didn't succeed by presenting deep interesting, voice-acted storylines, but through quick, accessible gameplay and a low entry-point hardware wise.
I praise BioWare for putting more importance in storyline as well. I just think it's premature and a bit arrogant to be taking such broad swipes at the rest of the MMOs out there when the success of their own has yet to be proven.They really should just let the game speak for itself and let the players decide how good it is.... In the end, that's what will happen anyway.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
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***************Disclaimer*****************
***I did not pour thru this entire thread***
I have seen this type of pre-launch behavour before... Warhammer Online!
Need I say more?
i lol'ed at that. but you're right unfortunately heh
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
I won't. After going through the process with WH Online - I will never have unreasonable expectations about any MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
He didn't mean write as in to literally pen it out dude... though from what i see from your post's "missing the point" is your standard MO when it comes to counterarguments. Ever heard of sandbox content?
What exactly are you saying here?
That you want totally free PvE? Bioware have never allowed you to even attack much less kill any npc freely in any of their games and have not hinted anything regarding this for TOR, so on what exactly are you basing this?
That you want open PvP? ... well it would be a cold day in hell if BIOWARE would release the first AAA MMO with open PvP. One can surely hope... but let's be a tad more realistic.
You say you want option then you say you want a movie... how exactly do you connect those two statements in the same argument? the only options a movie provides are 1) Watch it and 2) Don't watch it.
I upped this post and took out the most striking conclusions about why the more popular and succesful MMo's are being played today.
I would recommend the Bioware developper in the OP to re read it several times before attacking the gameplay of MMo's.
And I don't agree with these posters saying that the pre recorded voice and in game cinematics of NPC's giving quests in AoC contributed anything to the long term playing value of that game.
Imagine having to endure hundreds of cut in cinematics of NPC's talking to you with the usual AI of a plant for every quest and fixed story interaction you make.
The guy above made a perfect analysis of what really is an mmorpg. Be it theme parc, sandbox or ftp Facebook kind of game.
Bravo. You nailed the longevity of MMo's perfectly.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I dunno, I think the man has a right to his opinion. He makes games, he should be able to communicate how he feels. Why does everyone feel a need to tear stuff apart rather than just taking it for what it was... his opinion. He has a vision hidden within there, trying to tell us he wants to do things differently but everyone wigs out like they can't handle it - HOW DARE HE!? How dare you? Threads like this is what separates players from developers. Not only do you attack his opinion but the whole game! There is a large group of developers working on TOR and if everyone of them posted their opinion, we'd probably agree with less than half - but with thier ideas combined, they can make a great game.
Pretty much what I have been saying.
I am pretty sure( like 99.984753291% sure) the SP part will be good . More than worth the box price, and any sub time it takes to run all the content.
Bonus if it has a great MMO attached. If not, then I will re-sub each time they have additions/expansions.
And Kyl.....normally I agree with ya. That said, you can drop the EVE luving in this thread. This isnt a sandbox game, and the typical gamer this is being aimed at could give a chit less about that sandbox. I understand they appeal to a niche of folks, like you, but for the themepark fans we dont give a chit about EVE and its forced PVP/virtual reality economy.
This will have trades....this will have PVP. PVP is optional, and the focus is on adventure classes. Which sounds good to me.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Nope, I didn't say anything what you would like to have me say.
I quoted knyghttearer for his perfect analysis why people play MMo's for many years. Reread what he wrote above about persistence and the famous gameplay of the more succesful MMo's.
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Dozens of MMO companies have tried to solve the "point" issue with "story". Bioware is not the first to make this statement that MMO's have no point and if they just had a story more people would play them. It sounds logical upfront. "Yeah, MMO's need story. They're pointless because they don't have story!" Yet I posit this back, Bioware thinks MMO's need a point because Bioware has no idea how to build a game that doesn't have story in it. Period.
The proof? WoW. WoW's story is nonsensical, delivered to players in a fashion where most of them skip it (quick quest text anyone? It's on by default now). And for those instances where story is forced on the player, some scene acted out, most wish it was skippable the 600th time they are watching it.
MMO's are /lifetime/ games. You cannot physically build enough story content that for the lifetime it is is played the players don't repeat the content. And once you repeat story, it falls flat. It's only really good the first time. Exceptional story pieces might be enjoyablet he second or third time but after that... not so much. Take Age of Conan's excellent Tortage area. It's pretty impressive the first time you play it. But if you decide to roll an alt you'll be pulling your hair out.
MMO's can benefit from good story but the best way to tell a story in an MMO is with the world itself. Some of the best areas, instances and quests I ever did in MMO's are those that without a single piece of dialog managed to tell me a story. Nektropos castle in EQII is a superb example of an entire zone who by the very act of doing what is necessary to finish it, tells you a story and is enjoyable to do many times over both for the named encounters and the random chance at great gear for its level. Numerous end game instances in many MMO's follow this model as well, EQII is by no means the only one that's tried it.
The reality is an MMO is NOT a single player game. The motivations for why players play them are very very different. It's a social experience, it's a clique experience too. It's also a reward/gratification model. Popularity contest, what have you. Some, like me and my friends, often play for the content challenge, to experience the game mechanics and the cooperative gamplay elements and ultimately in some ways it comes down to "Why did he climb the mountain? Because it was there." And then some want the open world experience, a realm, environment to roleplay and escape to, to be a part of.
Ultimately story MMO's have to deal with a very large MMO problem these days. Linearity. Linear MMO's destroy the multiplayer experience. You see this most say, in WoW's linear quest design. It becomes nearly impossible to keep a group of people together through the content as quests are very linear. Someone is always behind and therefor someone is always backtracking to help out or moving on and leaving their friends behind. How Bioware intends to solve this problem, to keep an MMO which should be social, from being one giant single player game, is beyond me.
I'm not trying to Poopoo Bioware, I am hoping they make a fantastic game and I expect to buy and play it. However I disagree vehemantly that what MMO's have been missing all along is story and a point. WoW has minimal story a nd point and no one will argue against its success and/or quality. What MMO's have been missing is not story, but quality innovative social gameplay in settings players enjoy and that are as high quality and polished as the experiences they are currently enjoying.
Finally A Real Story in An MMO!
Oops, did somebody say FFXI?
Your arrogance is pissing me off, Bioware.
In their defense, most people couldn't stick with the grind of FFXI long enough to find the amazing story and beautiful cinematics.
Playing FFXI reminded me of the movie "There will be blood."
Very long periods of boredom and absolutely nothing exciting happening then brilliant moments of well crafted story... followed by more long periods of boredom and non-excitement.
Trust me I would have loved to have liked that game lol just didn't happen.
I gotta say the story started off pretty uninteresting and unimportant, but still, that kind of statement is an insult to any of those half a million players that have experienced it fully
.
They should stick to their "first MMO to bring multiple dialogue options and full voiceovers" talk, imo.
No insult meant my good friend. I know many great things about FFXI and am very happy those half a million players enjoyed it so greatly, I always wished I could be one of them... but after SWG and WoW and every other MMO I played I just could not get into FFXI..
Still, back on topic, I do think they (Bioware) has the right idea in show casing a good story in a MMO. I know I'll play ToR just for the story, even if they MMO aspects are terrible.
The game won't retain my sub of course if the MMO aspects are not there, but I'll play long enough to finish my story arcs just cause it's a Bioware story in the KOTOR universe.
By reading that article it seems that Bioware has completely missunderstood the point of MMORPGs. They seem to think that an MMORPG is an RPG with single player storylines played over the internet but that is not correct.
An MMORPG is a persistant, online world where your character lives rather than playing through story arcs that does not affect the world, at all. So to me it sounds like Bioware is just going to put their single player games on a server and then think they have an MMORPG. That is completely wrong way of looking at the genre.
Asking what is the point of an MMORPG is like asking what is the point of life? There is no single one answer to that beside to say it is subjective, depending on what you want to do with your life. Same as with MMORPGs, what do you want to do with your virtual life? Certainly it should not be to play through single player story arcs, why play an MMORPG for that?
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I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
Lore is part of it. However the real reason that WoW is successful is because it became mainstream media. WoW is successful because a number of reasons. It's made by a good company (like Bioware), it has a series with lore it's based upon (like KOTOR), it's system requirements are quite low (more people are able to play) and it is pretty solid by way of very little bugs or glitches.
Saying that, I'm going to again say that I'm going to back Bioware to the end. I believe they can make the quality product that we're hoping for. One that will feel like Star Wars, one that we can share together for a long time.
I disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate gameplay is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own unique idenity, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with most MMO's isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
I like stories in my games. I remember when story was important in an MMO. A game doesn't have to be a themepark to be story focused. Asheron's Call had a story that evolved over time. Every month different events would be occuring and people of all levels would have new content involved with them. A lot of you just haven't experienced a good story focused game, and have become so jaded by completely unfocused games that should have been story focused, like AoC, that you can't imagine a good one.
It can be done. Whether SW:TOR will be the game to do it is yet to be seen, but I certainly would not count them out.
I don't believe most of the people with negative attitudes towards TOR are doubting that Bioware will release a quality game. Most of the concerns are about the direction of that quality and the potential effects this might have to the end result. I am sure most if not all in this thread want a solid SW MMO more than anything.
Don't confuse "story" with "lore". These are two completely separate things.
Lore is the background which is timeless and ultimately static. Stories are always time-bound. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end.
What I've been arguing during this whole thread is that "stories" are bad for mmos, precisely because of their time-based structure which is at odds with mmo persistence which is the defining quality of the medium. Lore on the other hand is perfectly in concord with mmo paradigm.
Imo a "perfect" mmo would have massive amounts of very rich and deep lore and no "stories" at all. (At least no dev-designed stories involving players themselves).
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops