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Is players whining ruining mmorpgs?

I tell you why I think it is. If dev give in then players will just reliase that whining worked and start whining even more.

It's like kid that keep whining to his dad that he wants this toy and if dad buy it then the kid will whine again and again when ever he wants something.

First signs of this is when there will be less "Good work dev, great game" and more "OMGWTF NERF CRAFTER, PVPERS, MOBS AND THE GUYS WHO JUST KILLED ME ASDFGH".

Constructive feedback should be welcome, but even that usually turn to who shout loudest. I want to play games devs make for us instead game where players decide the changes.

 

Comments

  • DekothDekoth Member Posts: 474

    In short...yes

    I think to anyone with any reasonable IQ level, it is quickly obvious in all mmorpg type games how destructive player whining has become. I dare say many of the current top mmorpgs could have honestly been much better games, had the Devs stuck to their original vision, and not what the crying masses wanted. That is not to say they games out arent good, just that they could have been just as good if not better, without all the compromise.

    I believe in a simple philosophy, If the game is truly good, even though there will always be something someone does not like, they will play the game anyhow and stick to it, because the game in in fact..good.

  • punkrockpunkrock Member Posts: 1,777
    i say yes. like in daoc when people said :omg zerker class nerf it it killed two alb people at the same time omg omg nerf it: ok before the nerf i played the zerker class yes it was str but hey its mid   that stand for power, hate    and the troll has 100 str to start with of course he is going to be strong as crap. but hey the people that cryed it killed a very good class imo. the people that jumped the zerker and died sucked they did not play there cards right. that is all i have to say
  • PrefectPrefect Member Posts: 34

    Players whining ruins/has ruined/will have ruined/will ruin/"insert temporal participle" MMORPGs then, now, and forever.  Forums are the downfall of online gaming. 

  • crazystevecrazysteve Member Posts: 57

    I admit i have gotten a little ticked off at some one in a game and started saying things that could easily be described as whining and i will admit to it. I was playing SWG and accedentaly went pvert because i didnt know what it was at the time. As i was using a terminal a jedi of the rebel faction attacked me and killed me before i knew what happened. i started to curse him when i respawned and soon realized how childish i was acting. I was jsut upset cause i was new and now i know better.

    I do have to agree that whining is ruining games. because when u r trying to role play or talk to your friends in a city and somebody comes up to you and starts saying how he got killed by some one who in their eyes is cheating in some way. THis gets annyoing cuase they spam the hell out of the public chat. Have you ever tried roleplaying near someone who is crying and saying how cheap it is that he starts with a new weapon that isnt good. HELLO ITS NOT LIKE THEY GAME DESIGNERS WANT TO GIVE EVERYONE SUPER WEAPONS WHEN THEY START PLAYING. Granted everyone gets upset when something bad happens to them and they dont know what happens and they start blaming every one else.

    P.S. I dont mean any offense to any onme just wanted to say what was on my mind

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    Players whining about players whining...how ironic.

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by ianubisi

    Players whining about players whining...how ironic.



    image

    *reads the sign*

    "Do not feed the troll"

    Move along.

  • ShadusShadus Member UncommonPosts: 666


    I dare say many of the current top mmorpgs could have honestly been much better games, had the Devs stuck to their original vision, and not what the crying masses wanted

    The problem is there is a fine line between player whining and complaining about legitimate problems in the game. It's fairly hard to tell the difference.

    I think the devs need to get better at saying no, but at the same time they also need to get *much* better at testing and verification that things are "working as intended" before passing by issues players bring up.

    Shadus

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by Shadus




    I dare say many of the current top mmorpgs could have honestly been much better games, had the Devs stuck to their original vision, and not what the crying masses wanted

    The problem is there is a fine line between player whining and complaining about legitimate problems in the game. It's fairly hard to tell the difference.

    I think the devs need to get better at saying no, but at the same time they also need to get *much* better at testing and verification that things are "working as intended" before passing by issues players bring up.



    Could help if dev actually played game actively (maybe even a bit during work hours). In some mmorpgs its quite obvious that dev isnt even playing the game themself and have no clue about some tricks players are using.
  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by leipuri
    *reads the sign*
    "Do not feed the troll"
    Move along.

    Sorry, my friend, but you do not dictate the terms of engagement here in this forum. You posted to a public forum and thus you are ripe to response, even from people who may disagree with you. If you cannot learn to deal with that "feature" of a forum then perhaps you should take your own advice and "move along".

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by ianubisi




    Originally posted by leipuri
    *reads the sign*
    "Do not feed the troll"
    Move along.


    Sorry, my friend, but you do not dictate the terms of engagement here in this forum. You posted to a public forum and thus you are ripe to response, even from people who may disagree with you. If you cannot learn to deal with that "feature" of a forum then perhaps you should take your own advice and "move along".


    I didnt know see you disagree. All i saw was you throwing in one liner old as internet. image If you think whiners contribute something to mmorpgs then feel free to just say so and perhaps you will add something constructive to discussion.

    Oh and I am not saying that I dictate "terms of engagement" here (and never said I did), so feel free if you feel like trolling.

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    This statement:


    Originally posted by leipuri

    If you think whiners contribute something to mmorpgs then feel free to just say so and perhaps you will add something constructive to discussion.

    Whether you feel my comment was constructive or not is entirely up to you. I am trying to point out the absurdity of your original premise, and I don't need paragraphs to do so. More often than not, where internet forums are concerned, the less that is said the better.

    And you are, indeed, attempting to define the terms of the conversation...specifically by rejecting any comments that you do not find germaine to the conversation you started. Attacking ad hominem those who may post otherwise is just another way of bullying people into your dogmatic view of a proper debate.

  • FiEND4UFiEND4U Member Posts: 15

    ehh.. i agree with ianubisi on this one..
    kinda ironic, players whining about whiners.. -_-

    they may not directly ruin the game to you, you could just avoid them.. but if they whine enough to where the game masters actually change the game, then i could see this being a valid point..
    (given.. most changes/updates to the game are actually for the better.. so.. ::::12::)

    image

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by ianubisi

    This statement:



    Originally posted by leipuri

    If you think whiners contribute something to mmorpgs then feel free to just say so and perhaps you will add something constructive to discussion.


    Whether you feel my comment was constructive or not is entirely up to you. I am trying to point out the absurdity of your original premise, and I don't need paragraphs to do so. More often than not, where internet forums are concerned, the less that is said the better.

    And you are, indeed, attempting to define the terms of the conversation...specifically by rejecting any comments that you do not find germaine to the conversation you started. Attacking ad hominem those who may post otherwise is just another way of bullying people into your dogmatic view of a proper debate.


    Subject of this thread is about if mmorpg devs listening whiners ruin mmorpgs and not about "how ironic you might find discussion about it". Your first post wasnt anything else than troll.

    Anyways enough of derailing this thread and like I said not going to stop (or I have mod powers to do so) from trolling if you like. image

  • pinkdaisypinkdaisy Member CommonPosts: 361
    I don't think whiners are ruining MMOs.  They certainly have some influence.  Their influence is greater in some games than in others.  I think, overall, bad moves in MMOs can be attributed to poorly thought out decisions on the part of game designers.  I think if designers spent more time working on their design document and a little less time on their poly counts, then we might see much better thought out gameplay features in games.

    www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project

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  • RudnocRudnoc Member Posts: 208

    Asheron's Call is a perfect example of this topic.

    Oh, BTW I would just ignore the derailers, obviously they have their reasons to reverse the topic. Now that is ironic.

  • PasomattPasomatt Member Posts: 221

    And the same whiners are usually people that leave 6 months into a game, forcing us to deal with what they had added to the game that they didn't even stay for.

  • TyrgrisTyrgris Member Posts: 321



    Originally posted by Rudnoc

    Asheron's Call is a perfect example of this topic.
    Oh, BTW I would just ignore the derailers, obviously they have their reasons to reverse the topic. Now that is ironic.



    Oh yeah, I think AC is one major game that has been screwed up by player opinion. I know the guys at Turbine will agree to that and is still paying for it especially with AC2.

    As for ianubisi, I wouldn't worry about him at all, he always was a nuisance ever since he applied here, trust me I know. Obviously from his excessive posts you can see what I mean. I think he is practicing for his literacy papers again, LOL

    MMORPG.com should base elite members by how long you have been with them, rather than how often you run your mouth.
     

  • starman999starman999 Member Posts: 1,232

    The answer seems rather obvious......

    Perhaps a better question is why do the developers allow the whining of players influence their decisions to such a degree that it becomes detrimental to the game itself?

    Take SWG for example. The game was nigh unto perfect when it released. Aside from the missing mounts and vehicles the game itself was superb at launch. Then the individual players who were unable to make the most of the class they chose or decided it would be cool to run around pwning gun carriers with a sword or kung fu started whining about not being able to compete. This mind you was AFTER the devs had already stated that melee would be gimped VS ranged.

    What happened next was mind boggling. They give Doctors the ability to buff players attributes into the stratosphere and people basically become invincible. They also up the damage output of melee players. This causes all players to gravitate towards melee and the game becomes "kung fu planet" online instead of star wars.

    Every time a bunch of players got together and whined they got their way and the game continued to deteriorate with every concession the developers made. Ultimately leading to the removal of jedi permadeath and culminating in a jedi population roughly equivalent to that of the non jedi.

    This was all made possible due to the whiny crybaby nature of todays standard MMO player. they have become spoiled and know that if they throw a temper tantrum the devs will give them whatever they want just to shut them up.

     

    Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Tyrgris

    As for ianubisi, I wouldn't worry about him at all, he always was a nuisance ever since he applied here, trust me I know. Obviously from his excessive posts you can see what I mean. I think he is practicing for his literacy papers again, LOL

    Making it personal, eh?
  • RudnocRudnoc Member Posts: 208



    Originally posted by starman999

    The answer seems rather obvious......
    Perhaps a better question is why do the developers allow the whining of players influence their decisions to such a degree that it becomes detrimental to the game itself?
    Take SWG for example. The game was nigh unto perfect when it released. Aside from the missing mounts and vehicles the game itself was superb at launch. Then the individual players who were unable to make the most of the class they chose or decided it would be cool to run around pwning gun carriers with a sword or kung fu started whining about not being able to compete. This mind you was AFTER the devs had already stated that melee would be gimped VS ranged.
    What happened next was mind boggling. They give Doctors the ability to buff players attributes into the stratosphere and people basically become invincible. They also up the damage output of melee players. This causes all players to gravitate towards melee and the game becomes "kung fu planet" online instead of star wars.
    Every time a bunch of players got together and whined they got their way and the game continued to deteriorate with every concession the developers made. Ultimately leading to the removal of jedi permadeath and culminating in a jedi population roughly equivalent to that of the non jedi.
    This was all made possible due to the whiny crybaby nature of todays standard MMO player. they have become spoiled and know that if they throw a temper tantrum the devs will give them whatever they want just to shut them up.
     



    So true, so true. It is getting pathetic with the pampering of the ones that complain about things being too hard or too complicated. What do they do, they dumb down games and make it so easy that most RPG fans burn out and max out within a few months as little as a few weeks.

    It is what Killed AC2 from the start and dropped AC's player base after it first year. WoW and EQ2 both are looking at the genre in the same way and look what is already going on over at the WoW forums. Some say it just caters to the more casual player, but I think it just caters to the players that don't want to put a lot of thinking or figuring things out as in what part of playing a RPG is about. So, you wind up with a game that is over simplified. Take a look at what even Smedely said regarding to what they should have done with EQ2 as to compare to WoW's success. I can't believe that Smedely figures the simplicity is what got WoW going, which most of us gamers know it was crossing a RTS title with a RPG and it's popularity of 3 titles that would gather a large number of players to go live online to play not only a story driven game, but a game that also feeds the RTS players with the PvP being introduced.

    Maybe the next generation of gamers are going to be more simplified and we are just going to find our corner to fit in where we can get more involved in our games other than grinding our way to the top to PK each other for the best looking loot in the game.

    I am sure others can word it better, but there will be a division in the MMO communities and one of them I can say will be the Hardcore RPG with the Hack N Slash RPG gamers on the other side. Somehow from what Smedley states I think we all know where he is headed. However I think the option for us will be to go to DDO, MEO, Mourning, VanGuard, Hero's Journey and other like titles while WoW, DnL, Guildwars will be the other side of the coin when it comes to Sword and Sorcery RPGs.

    However, I just hope that a lot of devs have learned that doing more what the player wants rather than following on the visions of the project can prove detrimental to the concepts of the intended design. Especially when it comes to Turbine. I would hate to see them ruin the original grandfather games of the RPG to the whems of the players. Of course I am crossing my fingers and hoping that Jeffery Anderson will stay true to his words when he said they have learned from the mistakes that they did with the Asheron's Call franchise and will not repeat them in DDO nor MEO.


     




  • Originally posted by leipuri



    Originally posted by Shadus




    I dare say many of the current top mmorpgs could have honestly been much better games, had the Devs stuck to their original vision, and not what the crying masses wanted

    The problem is there is a fine line between player whining and complaining about legitimate problems in the game. It's fairly hard to tell the difference.

    I think the devs need to get better at saying no, but at the same time they also need to get *much* better at testing and verification that things are "working as intended" before passing by issues players bring up.



    Could help if dev actually played game actively (maybe even a bit during work hours). In some mmorpgs its quite obvious that dev isnt even playing the game themself and have no clue about some tricks players are using.



    VERY, very, well said !!!

    Everyone on the game DEV team should be required as part of their job to play the game without using godmode!

  • LreguizrLreguizr Member Posts: 207

    When I was in the Jumpgate community, there was one of many of the reasons why the playerbase went down the sink hole because flamewars and whining over there and the GMs did not do anything about it. Later on, in summer of 2004, the GMs decided to use a ban stick on massivle amounts people and thats what pissed off many fans.

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member Posts: 7,433

    BETRAYING faithfull players for any reasons, be it others players whining or new features, is always bad.  Devs should stick to what their games are and IMPROVE them, not change them.

     

    I will not stop whining nonetheless since the other sides have start it pre-Kunark!  image  There was no Gods(and no raid content), solo was better then grouping in every aspect...that was the original EQ I did start with!

     

    And for the guy saying devs should play their game...I wonder...to me...I always have the feeling that most EQ devs where unable to solo like us and this is why they change the game and always hate us, mighty soloers!  If they would not have played their game, they would not have experience frustration leading to nerf all those better then them.  image

     

    After those initials Kunark changes, I adapt and try their new game that was mostly resolving around grouping (raiding was trivial even if better)...and I eventually master it despite the fact it was not as fun as the pre-Kunark was...and they start giving more and more and more rewards to raiders(PoFire flagging was the ultimate travesty), at the expense of the groupers, changing again that game.  I was honestly very slow to realize that, was still adapting to that ''must group lame setting''...when I hit the new ''must raid wall'', I left, for good.  They did move in many differents ways over the course of their evolution, going back toward groups (LDoN) was the first time the group they always favored feel betrayed.  EQ did change their game many times, every change was BETRAYING some players, to the choices they make, efforts they made, time investment they made.  Betraying lead to anger, and anger lead to the Dark Side.

     

    PS: This is why they kill AE groups, slowly but certainly, or the good groups that didnt raid, because they, the devs, where still unable to do what those mighty groupers where doing.  Frustrated noobs nerf the mighty group and call them noobs because they where not raiding...I assume the same devs where frustrated when they realize that they where unable to do what some uber raiders where doing in raids and group, which lead them to create LDoN, when they realize we benefit from it a LOT more from them, they move back away from those changes.  I am really not sure devs playing their game is that good if they take it that personnal.  image

     

    PPS: I have no idea if the EQ devs where acting out of jealousy, just find it funny to go that way to tease them for the fun of it.  I am sure at least 1 dev or 2 did act out of jealousy, but the majority?  Doubt it. But who know?  image

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

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