You are completely missing the point the OP makes;
New games are in direct competition to existing games ~ said new games are going to have a very difficult time in matching the polish, amount of content and market penetration enjoyed by the 2 behemoths of their sub-genre WoW & EvE. Therefore, can any new release expect to equal or surpass said titles without a billion dollar budget and or 10 year development time?
New games can have better graphics thus inferior in content but superior on the visuals and that may attract.
I would agree with the whole visuals thing problem is Neither WoW or EvE look dated.
WoW is set up brilliantly with an artstyle that ages extremely well and Eve with the amount of money backing it has already revamped its look to be competitive with anything we will see in 2010.
When I think graphics I think AoC and Aion and both games failed to hold players in NA/Euro even with stunning visuals.
That is just plain stupid. Why not compare the release of one MMO to another and not their current states.
Because nobody is standing in EBGames with their wallet in their hand asking themselves, "hmm, should I buy this new release game, or should I buy WoW as it was in 2004?"
Is that really so difficult to understand?
If you would like people to politely applaud, then sure, releasing a game in 2010 which is better than EVE was in 2003 or WoW was in 2004 is probably good enough.
But if you'd like people to actually buy your game, and stay subscribed to it, well, actually, you have to offer quality that is not present in EVE of 2010, or WoW of 2010.
I think we can look to the industry leaders for most of the blame, much like any other industry. When you are the most successful "group" in a certain industry, then it generally befalls you to lead that industry in healthy directions. You know what it's called when a lesser known group changes everything? It's generally called a revolution. As time goes on, the industry gets bigger and more robust, the heavier the pockets the harder it is to get up and change things.
In Blizzard's mind they have a great game. They have the most subscribers by far of any other MMORPG now or ever and for the forseeable future at that. They have retained this subscriber base through the launch of a whole slew of other MMORPG's some with arguably better/stronger IP's to build on. Fact is, they don't have that great of a game. Their success relies largely on strong backing and perfect timing. They came in with a strong IP at a time when the MMORPG genre was ready to explode. Then it all just snowballed. They also know what the players want, even though the players usually don't. They know that all you need is a really well hidden grind to keep them unwittingly addicted. Once they finish the level grind, they start a gear grind, once they finish that gear grind they start a new gear grind under the disguise of Raiding. You throw in a decent if not completely idiotic social community and you have World of Warcraft. They give you all of the tools, they gave you a solid game despite its flaws and deception. Then they started putting in new features (95 percent of stolen from other games), to keep people addicted. A ton of the playerbase for World of Warcraft has never explored other games and even when they do they either expect another World of Warcraft to a T, or something mind blowing and revolutionary. Neither happen, even though most games do go after a basic structure modeled around the WoW building block.
So, that said, why would they change? Even though we know the game is just somewhere between mediocre and decent - to them they are getting absolutely rich off of it, so why would they believe the critics? The numbers speak to them in a different language, and it sounds delightful.
So basically, it is up to them as developers to say, "We want to push this genre of games forward, we want to leave a legacy behind that isn't about our subscriber count" - and go through with it. The question really is, what really makes a great MMORPG? Nobody seems to know. Whenever we think it is one thing, a developer comes out and answers that call, only to be a disappointment, so we accuse the next flaw or lack of feature. Fact is, none of us know. We won't know until we play it and it clicks.
I know I always go back to World of Warcraft and that's because I always know there will be people I know playing it. And that is why it is still an absolute juggernaught. Because, no matter how many other games fail you, there will always be at least one friend of yours that is still exploring Azeroth so in effect it always feels like home and feels safe.
So who's fault is it? The developers or the lazy gamers? Probably both, but who can blame either? Irony.
The question of who has the best bet of toppling the powerhouses?
The first name that always springs to mind is probably Star Wars: The Old Republic. But honestly, I don't see them reaching the WoW numbers. I don't even see them reaching half of those numbers. Fact is you can survive as a company with a lot less than what WoW takes in. I think in that aspect, people are spoiled and expect too much. The World of Warcraft enigma is an anomaly. The idea of this happening again until WoW 2 is extremely unlikely. Never will the stars align like they did for Blizzard when they launched WoW. It is way past time for everyone, the journalists, the gamers and the developers - to stop using World of Warcraft as a measuring stick, because it simply isn't realistic.
First SWG never even approached EVE's current level of polish in any form. EVE didn't when it launched either for that matter.
Second a game need not be fully polished, just fully functional.
Ehh... Polished, Functional both those games have it all and since their releases noones matched them.
I am aware that WoW and Eve didnt start out amazing but that doesn't matter. Noone cares how the games started out when you match a game against one another its current client vs current client.
When WAR released noone put it up against WoWs 04 open beta client lol.
by that logic i should compare a brand new sports player to a verteran who has played X hundred games for his country.
Or even a newborn child to a 5 year old.
That is just plain stupid. Why not compare the release of one MMO to another and not their current states.
In an ideal world where total fairness exists maybe players would compare launch vs launch, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, and the reality of the situation, though you may find stupid, happens in majority of the cases. You can choose to be the odd one out of the pack, but you'll find yourself in a really teeny tiny group.
I think we can look to the industry leaders for most of the blame, much like any other industry. When you are the most successful "group" in a certain industry, then it generally befalls you to lead that industry in healthy directions. You know what it's called when a lesser known group changes everything? It's generally called a revolution. As time goes on, the industry gets bigger and more robust, the heavier the pockets the harder it is to get up and change things.
In Blizzard's mind they have a great game. They have the most subscribers by far of any other MMORPG now or ever and for the forseeable future at that. They have retained this subscriber base through the launch of a whole slew of other MMORPG's some with arguably better/stronger IP's to build on. Fact is, they don't have that great of a game. Their success relies largely on strong backing and perfect timing. They came in with a strong IP at a time when the MMORPG genre was ready to explode. Then it all just snowballed. They also know what the players want, even though the players usually don't. They know that all you need is a really well hidden grind to keep them unwittingly addicted. Once they finish the level grind, they start a gear grind, once they finish that gear grind they start a new gear grind under the disguise of Raiding. You throw in a decent if not completely idiotic social community and you have World of Warcraft. They give you all of the tools, they gave you a solid game despite its flaws and deception. Then they started putting in new features (95 percent of stolen from other games), to keep people addicted. A ton of the playerbase for World of Warcraft has never explored other games and even when they do they either expect another World of Warcraft to a T, or something mind blowing and revolutionary. Neither happen, even though most games do go after a basic structure modeled around the WoW building block.
So, that said, why would they change? Even though we know the game is just somewhere between mediocre and decent - to them they are getting absolutely rich off of it, so why would they believe the critics? The numbers speak to them in a different language, and it sounds delightful.
So basically, it is up to them as developers to say, "We want to push this genre of games forward, we want to leave a legacy behind that isn't about our subscriber count" - and go through with it. The question really is, what really makes a great MMORPG? Nobody seems to know. Whenever we think it is one thing, a developer comes out and answers that call, only to be a disappointment, so we accuse the next flaw or lack of feature. Fact is, none of us know. We won't know until we play it and it clicks.
I know I always go back to World of Warcraft and that's because I always know there will be people I know playing it. And that is why it is still an absolute juggernaught. Because, no matter how many other games fail you, there will always be at least one friend of yours that is still exploring Azeroth so in effect it always feels like home and feels safe.
So who's fault is it? The developers or the lazy gamers? Probably both, but who can blame either? Irony.
The question of who has the best bet of toppling the powerhouses?
The first name that always springs to mind is probably Star Wars: The Old Republic. But honestly, I don't see them reaching the WoW numbers. I don't even see them reaching half of those numbers. Fact is you can survive as a company with a lot less than what WoW takes in. I think in that aspect, people are spoiled and expect too much. The World of Warcraft enigma is an anomaly. The idea of this happening again until WoW 2 is extremely unlikely. Never will the stars align like they did for Blizzard when they launched WoW. It is way past time for everyone, the journalists, the gamers and the developers - to stop using World of Warcraft as a measuring stick, because it simply isn't realistic.
Blizzard wouldnt change simple as that. Healthy to them equates to rising/high subscription rates/high revenue/turnover/profit. They will start rethinking if lets say they suddenly lost 60% of their subscriptions.
That is just plain stupid. Why not compare the release of one MMO to another and not their current states.
Because nobody is standing in EBGames with their wallet in their hand asking themselves, "hmm, should I buy this new release game, or should I buy WoW as it was in 2004?"
Is that really so difficult to understand?
If you would like people to politely applaud, then sure, releasing a game in 2010 which is better than EVE was in 2003 or WoW was in 2004 is probably good enough.
But if you'd like people to actually buy your game, and stay subscribed to it, well, actually, you have to offer quality that is not present in EVE of 2010, or WoW of 2010.
Or you could offer them something new and fresh because, you know, maybe people like to play something else than the same game year after year after year? Doesn't even have to exceed EVE or WoW of 2010 as long as the gameplay is good and the content and experience is fun enough to last beyond a few months.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That is just plain stupid. Why not compare the release of one MMO to another and not their current states.
Because nobody is standing in EBGames with their wallet in their hand asking themselves, "hmm, should I buy this new release game, or should I buy WoW as it was in 2004?"
Is that really so difficult to understand?
If you would like people to politely applaud, then sure, releasing a game in 2010 which is better than EVE was in 2003 or WoW was in 2004 is probably good enough.
But if you'd like people to actually buy your game, and stay subscribed to it, well, actually, you have to offer quality that is not present in EVE of 2010, or WoW of 2010.
Or you could offer them something new and fresh because, you know, maybe people like to play something else than the same game year after year after year? Doesn't even have to exceed EVE or WoW of 2010 as long as the gameplay is good and the content and experience is fun enough to last beyond a few months.
From what i know, personal experience and from a bunch of old friends across several WoW servers; No, they dont wanna play the same game year after year.. BUT, they are comfortable there with forged relationships with the community AND there is no other mmo that delivers enough to get them moving out of their "comfort zone" and into another game.
I am referring to how oversaturated and stale the market is. Every new game is just a complete copy of a previous one but with different graphics slapped onto it. Gameplay is exactly the same, the grind is exactly the same, the "quests" are exactly the same, need i go on?
This makes perfect logical sense. The thing is that a very dangerous precedent has been set. No "innovative" game has ever succeeded on large scale (plenty of innovative games have succeeded, but on a smaller financial scale than what's expected of a major title).
"Why would you want to make a clone or a rehash?"
Answer: because the most financially successful game in history was a clone/rehash. WoW didn't have a single shred of originality. It just made things cleaner, smoother and more idiot friendly. Every single thing available in WoW, was already available in other games. So the biggest success in MMO history was a rehashed clone. Why would anyone looking at this business precedent make anything other than a rehashed clone? It's a proven success. Furthermore, all the games that have succeeded AFTER WoW, were also rehashed clones - LoTRO, AION, etc. Looking at more original games - auto assault, tr, darkfall, fallen earth, etc. - none had financial success and some downright closed.
The people at BioWare - quite possibly the best game development company in history - have the money and IP to build anything they want. They also have the support of their fan community and every possible thing that a company can wish for. Yet after analyzing the market and deciding to create an MMO, what's the first thing their leader says about SWTOR? He says "we're using WoW as our model". It's not because they are stupid or can't innovate. The market has spoken and the market says "formula works, if you want to make money, use formula".
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
yes, they do. But that's not a bad thing. People will try to make other games as soon as they realize they can't reach the same level and this will create more diversity which is never bad.
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
What I see already happening and predict will be fairly commonplace that is different from the WoW/EQ model is skill based systems instead of class based systems.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
What I see already happening and predict will be fairly commonplace that is different from the WoW/EQ model is skill based systems instead of class based systems.
Yeah... they have class based. And recently there is forum post circulating about why they are NOT doing skill based... lol
Originally posted by Emoqqboy In an ideal world where total fairness exists maybe players would compare launch vs launch, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, and the reality of the situation, though you may find stupid, happens in majority of the cases. You can choose to be the odd one out of the pack, but you'll find yourself in a really teeny tiny group.
It's not stupid, it's just reasonable. Let's say you hear news that some random company, say Sony, is releasing new PCI-E high level graphic cards with their own designed chipsets, called "Sony XY001". The first thing that comes to your mind will almost certainly be "how do they compare to the ATI 5880 and Nvidia GTX280". "Well, they are certainly better than ATI X1600 and Nvidia 8600!!" is not the answer you're looking for. You'll be inquiring about costs, hoping in a better deal, but "Well, i know nowadays the 5880 and GTX280 can be easily found at 300, but the XY001 will cost you 600". "So, what's the deal here?" "Oh, well, Sony feels in 5 years they will close the gap and release a new gfx card that will outperform ATI and Nvidia. You just need to support Sony by buying every new release of their gfx card, and it'll get better, i promise!".
That'd be a completely ridiculous marketing plan, but that's what often happen with WoW "carbon-copy" MMOs (and someone still wonders why they fail).
In an ideal world where total fairness exists maybe players would compare launch vs launch, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, and the reality of the situation, though you may find stupid, happens in majority of the cases. You can choose to be the odd one out of the pack, but you'll find yourself in a really teeny tiny group.
It's not stupid, it's just reasonable. Let's say you hear news that some random company, say Sony, is releasing new PCI-E high level graphic cards with their own designed chipsets, called "Sony XY001". The first thing that comes to your mind will almost certainly be "how do they compare to the ATI 5880 and Nvidia GTX280". "Well, they are certainly better than ATI X1600 and Nvidia 8600!!" is not the answer you're looking for. You'll be inquiring about costs, hoping in a better deal, but "Well, i know nowadays the 5880 and GTX280 can be easily found at 300€, but the XY001 will cost you 600€".
"So, what's the deal here?" "Oh, well, Sony feels in 5 years they will close the gap and release a new gfx card that will outperform ATI and Nvidia. You just need to support Sony by buying every new release of their gfx card, and it'll get better, i promise!".
That'd be a completely ridiculous marketing plan, but that's what often happen with WoW "carbon-copy" MMOs (and someone still wonders why they fail).
there is also a large amount of consumers that would walk into the store and ask the clerk 'which card do people buy the most' and then purchase that card. I think that is a terrible way to judge something but many people do. I have actually asked that question but only becuase i didnt care a great deal about what I was buying and was trying to get a basic baseline of quality becuase although most sold doesnt mean the best, it often means good enough to at least work correctly.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Or you could offer them something new and fresh because, you know, maybe some people like to play something else than the same game year after year after year? Doesn't even have to exceed EVE or WoW of 2010 as long as the gameplay is good and the content and experience is fun enough to last beyond a few months.
From what i know, personal experience and from a bunch of old friends across several WoW servers; No, they dont wanna play the same game year after year.. BUT, they are comfortable there with forged relationships with the community AND there is no other mmo that delivers enough to get them moving out of their "comfort zone" and into another game.
You're right, I should have said 'some people'. Readin so many non-nuanced, black&white posts tend to make me skip on nuance too. Fixed it for ye, in red above.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
You'er absolutely right.
There's a lot of fortunetelling while there's still little known yet. When the betas start to arrive, then we'll get a better, more realistic picture how things stand.
Still, even from the little available information about the upcoming MMO's some things can be learnt: Bioware may already try some different tactics with ToR, but GW2 and TSW are scouting new territories even more. Even if we'll have more reassurance when the beta is there, it does sound promising.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comparing Eve to Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom and Mortal Online is stupid. How long has Eve been out? like 5 years? ofcourse its alot more polished then say Mortal Online that isnt even out yet.. Was Eve as polished as it is now at release? i doubt it, and im sure Mortal Online and darkfall will be GREAT games with loads of features and polish in 5 years.
Same goes for comparing WoW too WAR, AoC etc, WoW was not polished to hell when it released, it was buggy as fuck and not really alot of content, i know cause i was there..
Given how things have been going, I seriously doubt that either DF or MO will be around in five years. Both WoW and Eve are exceptions. Most other MMO's have spiked at launch and then had major problems with retention. Look at Aion for just one example of that.
There's a lot of fortunetelling while there's still little known yet. When the betas start to arrive, then we'll get a better, more realistic picture how things stand.
Still, even from the little available information about the upcoming MMO's some things can be learnt: Bioware may already try some different tactics with ToR, but GW2 and TSW are scouting new territories even more. Even if we'll have more reassurance when the beta is there, it does sound promising.
TSW?
What really matters to me is NOT the "high concept" press-release, hype-filled statements and feature/system description on some FAQ or "Features" page on a website...
It's about how the game plays day in, day out.
You really can't gather that from videos, from podcasts.. from reading announcements and forum discussions. You have to actually play the game.
But even that can be deceiving as in Beta's they will often only show you bits and pieces or only allow you to progress so far in the game.
Unfortunately to actually get what I want I have to invest a great deal of time and quite often money into a game. So i guess you use the hype filled press releases and feature websites and beta tests to give you a feel as to if you think it's worth the risk or not.
Comparing Eve to Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom and Mortal Online is stupid. How long has Eve been out? like 5 years? ofcourse its alot more polished then say Mortal Online that isnt even out yet.. Was Eve as polished as it is now at release? i doubt it, and im sure Mortal Online and darkfall will be GREAT games with loads of features and polish in 5 years.
Same goes for comparing WoW too WAR, AoC etc, WoW was not polished to hell when it released, it was buggy as fuck and not really alot of content, i know cause i was there..
Given how things have been going, I seriously doubt that either DF or MO will be around in five years. Both WoW and Eve are exceptions. Most other MMO's have spiked at launch and then had major problems with retention. Look at Aion for just one example of that.
I dont think this is accurate. Vanguard is still online and it was never largerly populated as an example. I think you are basing your view on what the gaming media covers which is often different from reality. DF will do fine IF the developers can find away to get away from the problems in greece.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
My post didn't make any assumptions. I merely quoted the lead designer (or whoever is in charge, i forget the title) saying that they are consciously using WoW as the model for creating their game. This is not my opinion or assumption or whatever. And I have no factual data on what it feels like to play the game, but is a FACT that this is the design philosophy and approach.
This also doesn't mean that their game will be exactly WoW. I fully expect there will be differences. What I don't expect is for the game overall to privide a much different experience.
Your example of not all pounding on the same mob has already been used in many games - AoC, EQ2, TR just to name a few. Furthermore, a friend of mine that plays WoW tells me that some of their best encounters are designed around this very concept - fighting multiple enemies at once.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
They set the bars at "good, polished game." for the MMO genre.
Other companies have been jumping, and failing to get over the metophorical high-jump bar I'm imagining in my mind.
If you can't make a solid, fun, critical-bug-free game, then you fail as a developer. Hell, in our University course, that's what we've been told to do. Not something big, just something mostly bug free. If you can't get rid of some bugs (enemies getting stuck inside moving world sections... JUST FOR EXAMPLE) then don't allow those situations to happen.
Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject. Going to bed, work in 9.5 hours. Oh, setting skills in EVE first... mmm...
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Comparing Eve to Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom and Mortal Online is stupid. How long has Eve been out? like 5 years? ofcourse its alot more polished then say Mortal Online that isnt even out yet.. Was Eve as polished as it is now at release? i doubt it, and im sure Mortal Online and darkfall will be GREAT games with loads of features and polish in 5 years.
Same goes for comparing WoW too WAR, AoC etc, WoW was not polished to hell when it released, it was buggy as fuck and not really alot of content, i know cause i was there..
Um no, not comparing new games to existing games would be what is stupid. The barriers to entry are harder to overcome now, and new games are just going to have to deal with that or not bother even trying. You can't just come in with a game comparible to other games 5 years ago and expect people to wait 5 years for your game to catch up when they can just go play the existing game.
Originally posted by SagetheRage Um no, not comparing new games to existing games would be what is stupid. The barriers to entry are harder to overcome now, and new games are just going to have to deal with that or not bother even trying. You can't just come in with a game comparible to other games 5 years ago and expect people to wait 5 years for your game to catch up when they can just go play the existing game.
That's true... even WoW, when released, was pitched against existing MMOs already in their 5th or 6th year. The fact it presented solutions to problems that were afflicting other games (although mostly taken from other games that solved those problems but had other issues), its flexible interface, and other things (mostly, the best features of existing games), made it win over its older competitors.
What do you need nowadays? Updated graphics, new, original interface (anyone with a decent idea to entirely scrap those hated hotbars and the same idea of "fixed abilities"?), challenging and interactive combat (click-f1-f2-f3 is getting old) and gameplay (kill ten rats quests are a terrible idea, still most games are built upon it). Obviously I don't have the answers (if i did, i'd already be making money off them :P) but the right bunch of people that do and a minimal budget will have better chances than average "assembly-line" minded devs and multimillionaire investments.
problem with most game developers and their new games they keep trying too compare too wow and keep tryin too take wows ideals and add on too them and then the fail hardcore then they shut down. Lotro never fell short imo they are very much goin strong and growin.few games out there are making a little bit of a come back vanguard makin a come back very small comeback but they are addin on too their player base ive been playin there seen soo many new players commin in and sticking around. AoC made a pretty good come back with their laste xpansion. IMO every game has its own little player base WoW got really popular because when it came out almost every pc is able too handle it while other games eq2 for example was hard as hell too get into without some high end specs.Plus it introduced alot of the new generation of game kids too mmos.
Comments
I would agree with the whole visuals thing problem is Neither WoW or EvE look dated.
WoW is set up brilliantly with an artstyle that ages extremely well and Eve with the amount of money backing it has already revamped its look to be competitive with anything we will see in 2010.
When I think graphics I think AoC and Aion and both games failed to hold players in NA/Euro even with stunning visuals.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Because nobody is standing in EBGames with their wallet in their hand asking themselves, "hmm, should I buy this new release game, or should I buy WoW as it was in 2004?"
Is that really so difficult to understand?
If you would like people to politely applaud, then sure, releasing a game in 2010 which is better than EVE was in 2003 or WoW was in 2004 is probably good enough.
But if you'd like people to actually buy your game, and stay subscribed to it, well, actually, you have to offer quality that is not present in EVE of 2010, or WoW of 2010.
I think we can look to the industry leaders for most of the blame, much like any other industry. When you are the most successful "group" in a certain industry, then it generally befalls you to lead that industry in healthy directions. You know what it's called when a lesser known group changes everything? It's generally called a revolution. As time goes on, the industry gets bigger and more robust, the heavier the pockets the harder it is to get up and change things.
In Blizzard's mind they have a great game. They have the most subscribers by far of any other MMORPG now or ever and for the forseeable future at that. They have retained this subscriber base through the launch of a whole slew of other MMORPG's some with arguably better/stronger IP's to build on. Fact is, they don't have that great of a game. Their success relies largely on strong backing and perfect timing. They came in with a strong IP at a time when the MMORPG genre was ready to explode. Then it all just snowballed. They also know what the players want, even though the players usually don't. They know that all you need is a really well hidden grind to keep them unwittingly addicted. Once they finish the level grind, they start a gear grind, once they finish that gear grind they start a new gear grind under the disguise of Raiding. You throw in a decent if not completely idiotic social community and you have World of Warcraft. They give you all of the tools, they gave you a solid game despite its flaws and deception. Then they started putting in new features (95 percent of stolen from other games), to keep people addicted. A ton of the playerbase for World of Warcraft has never explored other games and even when they do they either expect another World of Warcraft to a T, or something mind blowing and revolutionary. Neither happen, even though most games do go after a basic structure modeled around the WoW building block.
So, that said, why would they change? Even though we know the game is just somewhere between mediocre and decent - to them they are getting absolutely rich off of it, so why would they believe the critics? The numbers speak to them in a different language, and it sounds delightful.
So basically, it is up to them as developers to say, "We want to push this genre of games forward, we want to leave a legacy behind that isn't about our subscriber count" - and go through with it. The question really is, what really makes a great MMORPG? Nobody seems to know. Whenever we think it is one thing, a developer comes out and answers that call, only to be a disappointment, so we accuse the next flaw or lack of feature. Fact is, none of us know. We won't know until we play it and it clicks.
I know I always go back to World of Warcraft and that's because I always know there will be people I know playing it. And that is why it is still an absolute juggernaught. Because, no matter how many other games fail you, there will always be at least one friend of yours that is still exploring Azeroth so in effect it always feels like home and feels safe.
So who's fault is it? The developers or the lazy gamers? Probably both, but who can blame either? Irony.
The question of who has the best bet of toppling the powerhouses?
The first name that always springs to mind is probably Star Wars: The Old Republic. But honestly, I don't see them reaching the WoW numbers. I don't even see them reaching half of those numbers. Fact is you can survive as a company with a lot less than what WoW takes in. I think in that aspect, people are spoiled and expect too much. The World of Warcraft enigma is an anomaly. The idea of this happening again until WoW 2 is extremely unlikely. Never will the stars align like they did for Blizzard when they launched WoW. It is way past time for everyone, the journalists, the gamers and the developers - to stop using World of Warcraft as a measuring stick, because it simply isn't realistic.
In an ideal world where total fairness exists maybe players would compare launch vs launch, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, and the reality of the situation, though you may find stupid, happens in majority of the cases. You can choose to be the odd one out of the pack, but you'll find yourself in a really teeny tiny group.
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
Blizzard wouldnt change simple as that. Healthy to them equates to rising/high subscription rates/high revenue/turnover/profit. They will start rethinking if lets say they suddenly lost 60% of their subscriptions.
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
Or you could offer them something new and fresh because, you know, maybe people like to play something else than the same game year after year after year? Doesn't even have to exceed EVE or WoW of 2010 as long as the gameplay is good and the content and experience is fun enough to last beyond a few months.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
From what i know, personal experience and from a bunch of old friends across several WoW servers; No, they dont wanna play the same game year after year.. BUT, they are comfortable there with forged relationships with the community AND there is no other mmo that delivers enough to get them moving out of their "comfort zone" and into another game.
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
This makes perfect logical sense. The thing is that a very dangerous precedent has been set. No "innovative" game has ever succeeded on large scale (plenty of innovative games have succeeded, but on a smaller financial scale than what's expected of a major title).
"Why would you want to make a clone or a rehash?"
Answer: because the most financially successful game in history was a clone/rehash. WoW didn't have a single shred of originality. It just made things cleaner, smoother and more idiot friendly. Every single thing available in WoW, was already available in other games. So the biggest success in MMO history was a rehashed clone. Why would anyone looking at this business precedent make anything other than a rehashed clone? It's a proven success. Furthermore, all the games that have succeeded AFTER WoW, were also rehashed clones - LoTRO, AION, etc. Looking at more original games - auto assault, tr, darkfall, fallen earth, etc. - none had financial success and some downright closed.
The people at BioWare - quite possibly the best game development company in history - have the money and IP to build anything they want. They also have the support of their fan community and every possible thing that a company can wish for. Yet after analyzing the market and deciding to create an MMO, what's the first thing their leader says about SWTOR? He says "we're using WoW as our model". It's not because they are stupid or can't innovate. The market has spoken and the market says "formula works, if you want to make money, use formula".
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Bioware has already decided to deviate from the WoW/EQ model with ToR.
They don't want "many players beating up on one mob" because they don't think it's very heroic. They would rather have you fighting uneven and unfavorable odds because coming out on top in that situation is heroic.
This is just one example in a game we know VERY little about.
So given the above example, how will they do raids and dungeons? If not many players beating up on a single "boss" mob we can expect more dynamic and interesting encounters.
Again, one example from a game we know so little about.
How many other ways are they "breaking the mold" that WoW / EQ built?
We have no idea yet!!
You people make a boat load of assumption while knowing very, very, very little "hard" evidence as to how the game will actually play.
yes, they do. But that's not a bad thing. People will try to make other games as soon as they realize they can't reach the same level and this will create more diversity which is never bad.
What I see already happening and predict will be fairly commonplace that is different from the WoW/EQ model is skill based systems instead of class based systems.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yeah... they have class based. And recently there is forum post circulating about why they are NOT doing skill based... lol
It's not stupid, it's just reasonable. Let's say you hear news that some random company, say Sony, is releasing new PCI-E high level graphic cards with their own designed chipsets, called "Sony XY001". The first thing that comes to your mind will almost certainly be "how do they compare to the ATI 5880 and Nvidia GTX280". "Well, they are certainly better than ATI X1600 and Nvidia 8600!!" is not the answer you're looking for. You'll be inquiring about costs, hoping in a better deal, but "Well, i know nowadays the 5880 and GTX280 can be easily found at 300, but the XY001 will cost you 600".
"So, what's the deal here?" "Oh, well, Sony feels in 5 years they will close the gap and release a new gfx card that will outperform ATI and Nvidia. You just need to support Sony by buying every new release of their gfx card, and it'll get better, i promise!".
That'd be a completely ridiculous marketing plan, but that's what often happen with WoW "carbon-copy" MMOs (and someone still wonders why they fail).
there is also a large amount of consumers that would walk into the store and ask the clerk 'which card do people buy the most' and then purchase that card. I think that is a terrible way to judge something but many people do. I have actually asked that question but only becuase i didnt care a great deal about what I was buying and was trying to get a basic baseline of quality becuase although most sold doesnt mean the best, it often means good enough to at least work correctly.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You're right, I should have said 'some people'. Readin so many non-nuanced, black&white posts tend to make me skip on nuance too. Fixed it for ye, in red above.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You'er absolutely right.
There's a lot of fortunetelling while there's still little known yet. When the betas start to arrive, then we'll get a better, more realistic picture how things stand.
Still, even from the little available information about the upcoming MMO's some things can be learnt: Bioware may already try some different tactics with ToR, but GW2 and TSW are scouting new territories even more. Even if we'll have more reassurance when the beta is there, it does sound promising.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Given how things have been going, I seriously doubt that either DF or MO will be around in five years. Both WoW and Eve are exceptions. Most other MMO's have spiked at launch and then had major problems with retention. Look at Aion for just one example of that.
TSW?
What really matters to me is NOT the "high concept" press-release, hype-filled statements and feature/system description on some FAQ or "Features" page on a website...
It's about how the game plays day in, day out.
You really can't gather that from videos, from podcasts.. from reading announcements and forum discussions. You have to actually play the game.
But even that can be deceiving as in Beta's they will often only show you bits and pieces or only allow you to progress so far in the game.
Unfortunately to actually get what I want I have to invest a great deal of time and quite often money into a game. So i guess you use the hype filled press releases and feature websites and beta tests to give you a feel as to if you think it's worth the risk or not.
I dont think this is accurate. Vanguard is still online and it was never largerly populated as an example. I think you are basing your view on what the gaming media covers which is often different from reality. DF will do fine IF the developers can find away to get away from the problems in greece.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Agreed!
My post didn't make any assumptions. I merely quoted the lead designer (or whoever is in charge, i forget the title) saying that they are consciously using WoW as the model for creating their game. This is not my opinion or assumption or whatever. And I have no factual data on what it feels like to play the game, but is a FACT that this is the design philosophy and approach.
This also doesn't mean that their game will be exactly WoW. I fully expect there will be differences. What I don't expect is for the game overall to privide a much different experience.
Your example of not all pounding on the same mob has already been used in many games - AoC, EQ2, TR just to name a few. Furthermore, a friend of mine that plays WoW tells me that some of their best encounters are designed around this very concept - fighting multiple enemies at once.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
They set the bars at "good, polished game." for the MMO genre.
Other companies have been jumping, and failing to get over the metophorical high-jump bar I'm imagining in my mind.
If you can't make a solid, fun, critical-bug-free game, then you fail as a developer. Hell, in our University course, that's what we've been told to do. Not something big, just something mostly bug free. If you can't get rid of some bugs (enemies getting stuck inside moving world sections... JUST FOR EXAMPLE) then don't allow those situations to happen.
Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject. Going to bed, work in 9.5 hours. Oh, setting skills in EVE first... mmm...
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Um no, not comparing new games to existing games would be what is stupid. The barriers to entry are harder to overcome now, and new games are just going to have to deal with that or not bother even trying. You can't just come in with a game comparible to other games 5 years ago and expect people to wait 5 years for your game to catch up when they can just go play the existing game.
That's true... even WoW, when released, was pitched against existing MMOs already in their 5th or 6th year. The fact it presented solutions to problems that were afflicting other games (although mostly taken from other games that solved those problems but had other issues), its flexible interface, and other things (mostly, the best features of existing games), made it win over its older competitors.
What do you need nowadays? Updated graphics, new, original interface (anyone with a decent idea to entirely scrap those hated hotbars and the same idea of "fixed abilities"?), challenging and interactive combat (click-f1-f2-f3 is getting old) and gameplay (kill ten rats quests are a terrible idea, still most games are built upon it). Obviously I don't have the answers (if i did, i'd already be making money off them :P) but the right bunch of people that do and a minimal budget will have better chances than average "assembly-line" minded devs and multimillionaire investments.
problem with most game developers and their new games they keep trying too compare too wow and keep tryin too take wows ideals and add on too them and then the fail hardcore then they shut down. Lotro never fell short imo they are very much goin strong and growin.few games out there are making a little bit of a come back vanguard makin a come back very small comeback but they are addin on too their player base ive been playin there seen soo many new players commin in and sticking around. AoC made a pretty good come back with their laste xpansion. IMO every game has its own little player base WoW got really popular because when it came out almost every pc is able too handle it while other games eq2 for example was hard as hell too get into without some high end specs.Plus it introduced alot of the new generation of game kids too mmos.