In what MMO with pvp can you start over a year after release and compete in less then six months ago?
Dark age of camelot, warhammer, guild wars, even world of warcraft. and those are only the ones that ive played... im sure there are a bunch of others out there that i havent played yet.
Nobody falls for the same arguments that the fanboys have been making since day 1 anymore. You can give it up.
___________________________
DoaC - DISAGREE. I played that game about a six months after release and am competing just as much in this game as I was in that. This was a GREAT game though.
Warhammer - The first 3 tier were fun. Then shit changed A LOT. Became a game of tweaks and zergs. After about 6 months the first 2 tiers were DEAD. I mean dead. T4 became boring really really fast.
Wow - DISAGREE. Unless you were a tweak playing the fucking game all the time pvp wasn't that competitive. This game was easily as much of a pve grind to pvp as DF. Except I HATED the pve in the game. I did really enjoy the BGs when they weren't full of geared tweaks with XP off. Also, the open world pvp near that bay between the two towns were fun the first six months. But that damn pve and gears grind BORED the HELL out of me.
Guilds Wars - I didn't play the game long enough to really know. To me this game wasn't a MMO. It was like some hybrid between one and Diablo. The point and click gameplay was total shit IMO.
theres really nothing to disagree with. it takes less than 1 week to get into the frontiers in DAoC, which is endgame. This isnt some estimated number. You can do it solo. If you KNOW what you are doing you can hit max level in 1-2 days and be in frontiers. It takes less than 1 week to get into WoW battlegrounds which is competitive PvP.
I haven't played the game since the first year of its release. Obviously, things may have changed. But that first year what you are saying wasn't the case. I would expect this to be the case for a game on its way out just trying to do what it could to hold on.
When I played WoW most of the low level BGs were full of higher level players side toons that were equiped with the best gear in the game for each tier that I didn't have access to. They called them tweaks from what I recall. These guys would just come in and fucking roll your group 99 times out of 100. Maybe things have changed in in this game as well BUT I am sure the fact the game is GEAR centric and getting that gear is a BIG BIG pve GRIND. I haven't played the game in several years but that IS the way it was when I played.
I hope you realize that I do agree they need to do something to make it a little easier but if you take the GRIND away from an pay to play MMO the life expectancy of a game is greatly shorter.
You can argue all you want with me about how grindless Wow or DoaC are but when I played them that wasn't the case. I played DoaC the first year and Wow the first year and came back for part of the second year.
IMO, this game has just as much grind as either of them had in the first year or so after release. Both DoaC and WoW had a lot more to do pve wise and you tended to not get ganked during the pve to often because of the world design. But to me I enjoy the aiming style combat, open world, and skill based instead of tier based player development system in DoaC better.
If you made a DoaC II gave it a non-zoned world with this style aiming combat , skill based character development, and some sort of lootable death for pvp I would be playing that game instead. DoaC was a much better game then WoW imo.
I've found the overall tone of the community to be the biggest turn off for me with Darkfall but you certainly have a point, if the games biggest draw is pvp I hate to say no one should have to go trhough six to twelve months of activities that are not fun to get to the fun of a game, the operative word being a "game" this isn't the Marines folks if you can't plug in and play and have fun at all times right away then there is something wrong with your game (and I hate to say it also something wrong with the people who think this is the way games should be designed and played).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I've found the overall tone of the community to be the biggest turn off for me with Darkfall but you certainly have a point, if the games biggest draw is pvp I hate to say no one should have to go trhough six to twelve months of activities that are not fun to get to the fun of a game, the operative word being a "game" this isn't the Marines folks if you can't plug in and play and have fun at all times right away then there is something wrong with your game (and I hate to say it also something wrong with the people who think this is the way games should be designed and played).
So if someone disagrees with the way that you think a game should be designed than there is something wrong with them?
This is one of the reasons I still check out this forum. The entertainment value can be astounding at times.
"...fun at all times right away..."
Gimme gimme, now now! And make sure I'm tucked in and safe while you're at it!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
PS : I got a personal problems with fanboys who try to get new player in DF with not being honest. Yeah i know its a rarity now days "honest people".
Eh don't bother. They liked DarkFall so much that flaws don't exist and they like everything. That's what I understand when I read some of the comments.
DarkFall is a great game with even greater potential but AV messed it up and only has 5k players yet "everything is fine"....go figure.
PS : I got a personal problems with fanboys who try to get new player in DF with not being honest. Yeah i know its a rarity now days "honest people".
Eh don't bother. They liked DarkFall so much that flaws don't exist and they like everything. That's what I understand when I read some of the comments.
DarkFall is a great game with even greater potential but AV messed it up and only has 5k players yet "everything is fine"....go figure.
Of course everything is fine. The game is pure perfection. Haven't you heard? Darkfall is supposed to be niche. AV doesn't want more than 5k players. Only the most harcore of the harcore...
@ those of you saying the mmorpg community is just used to easy mode grind games.
Let's take a look at mmo character progression in a few popular and relevant games shall we:
UO - You played the game, gained skills, and eventually maxed out, and continued to play and enjoy the game the same as the day you logged in. AFK macro's were used and it took maybe a week to at least max your stats. Pretty reasonable.
GW - Hop into the action. It's a pvp game!
WoW - It took a few months in vanilla wow to reach level 60 playing a few hours a day. Probably about the same grind time as DF. But wait... In WoW we did quests, dungeons, and hundreds of hours of content.
DF - A couple months of progression... but without lots of content to play through. No engaging story or quests lines to conquer, and no "content" to play through.
So if by EASYMODE you are referring to PLAYING a game, then I will forever support easymode. Hard does NOT equal challenging. I would say WoW progression is more challenging that Darkfall, you can't afk macro WoW.
Well, I have always found DFO to be a game you cant defend. You either love it or hate it. I miss the old days of eq1 where you simply grinded mobs with people. DFO is similar to that experience for me. No crappy quest line leading me through shit I dont care about it. In DFO, I do exactly what I want, when I want and there is no better way I should be spending my time.
I love that about DFO, among other things. I just wish more people loved it too
An intresting and valid point was made: PVP games need a solid PVE experience so that the noobs can have something to do while they work on catching up to the vets.
I dont see how you could improve PvE in DF. It will stay the one or other way boring as hell. People dont go play DF to get PvE. If people want PvE they go play some asia grinders oder WoW. People play DF for PvP and thats the main point which DF is lacking. There is simply no PvP for newbs except you get wtfpawned by vets.
If seen too many vets saying "bla bla bla" you can have fun pretty fast. I dont see how a newb should get all the knowledge about the game and same time grind the hell out of him to get viable "in 1-2 month" what most vets say as viable, which my opinion is a simple lie.
PS : I got a personal problems with fanboys who try to get new player in DF with not being honest. Yeah i know its a rarity now days "honest people".
Your PS is revealing a lot about your own motives. Let me say you this, you lost any contact to your initially motive. You have become someone who do not is honest anymore about Darkfall anymore and what Darkfall stands for.
I go and play Darkfall for PvE ! i always enjoyed PvEing in Darkfall and did split my game session to about 70% PvE (including exploring etc.) and 30% PvP (the number are rough and depend on the daily planned events of course). I do this since i got into the game more then year ago till today and never changed on this and i joined DF EXPECTING this.
If DF wasn't mean to be a worldy MMOPRG i WOULNDN'T have joined. Because i expected a world to join i accepted also the full loot PvP driven nature in this world. I REPEAT i didn't join DFsolelay for its PvP. Could have choosen some shooter if i wanted so.
Now, beside my own expectations lets see what the makers of Darkfall's thought about DF.
Gigantic handcrafted map to explore, difficult mobs to slain, gear that decays and needs to be replaced by gathered and looted parts. No that doesn't look like a arena for PvP 'r.
Darkfall is a fullblood MMORPG and not some PvP server and people claiming such are dishonest !
My motives doesnt matter same way as your doesnt matter to anyone.
And thats the problem. For me DF was advertised as FFA massive PvP game with insane seiges and ton of fun doing pvp, but reallity was the other side. Before i was even able to do PvP i had to do grind PvE (My sig in Forumfall "Forced to do PvE to be able to do PvP"). I dont mind grinding if i see an end, but in DF you dont see an end and thats the main reason i stoped playing DF. I was burn out about the way i still had to go. I was fighting against a lot of people including Neptun / Zxyz and ive seen how they play and what utilitys they use and i knew if i want to be on the same level i have to grind the skills / utilitys and stats. Im not a kind of person who wants to be or stay in the end or middle of the food chain.
I doubt you know what Devs want or going to want. You dont work for AV. You cant know it. Only thing you can do is just guessing as all.
Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOG
The largest handcrafted online world of its kind.
Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.
The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.
Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.
Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.
No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.
No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.
Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.
Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.
Craft any item in the world and put your name on it.
That how they advertise the game on their main page. There is not a single word about "grind, grind and more grind".
You joined DF 2009/2010. You knew already that this game is pure grind and little bit pvp like mentioned above 30% for a Full loot pvp FFA game!?
My motives doesnt matter same way as your doesnt matter to anyone.
And thats the problem. For me DF was advertised as FFA massive PvP game with insane seiges and ton of fun doing pvp, but reallity was the other side. Before i was even able to do PvP i had to do grind PvE (My sig in Forumfall "Forced to do PvE to be able to do PvP"). I dont mind grinding if i see an end, but in DF you dont see an end and thats the main reason i stoped playing DF. I was burn out about the way i still had to go. I was fighting against a lot of people including Neptun / Zxyz and ive seen how they play and what utilitys they use and i knew if i want to be on the same level i have to grind the skills / utilitys and stats. Im not a kind of person who wants to be or stay in the end or middle of the food chain.
I doubt you know what Devs want or going to want. You dont work for AV. You cant know it. Only thing you can do is just guessing as all.
Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOG
The largest handcrafted online world of its kind.
Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.
The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.
Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.
Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.
No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.
No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.
Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.
Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.
Craft any item in the world and put your name on it.
That how they advertise the game on their main page. There is not a single word about "grind, grind and more grind".
You joined DF 2009/2010. You knew already that this game is pure grind and little bit pvp like mentioned above 30% for a Full loot pvp FFA game!?
That is the real issue, it wasn't advertised as a PvE game, it was advertise as a Open World FFA PvP with Full Loot.
Instead, it's a game where you PvE 70% of the time (to use Darth's numbers).....maybe it's you Darth who's not playing the right game? Because if you look at the game's features (see parts in red in Xianthos post) and the 17 minutes trailer, it's more like 70% PvP and 30% PvE....not the other way around.
Heh, it's hopeless. They will keep saying this crap about months of grinding... Really hopeless. They won't listen to you. Only keep repeating "months of grinding, months of grinding, months of grinding...". It's years actually! You need 10 years to become viable in DFO. So Hallow Kitty Online would be the best option to play...
Heh, it's hopeless. They will keep saying this crap about months of grinding... Really hopeless. They won't listen to you. Only keep repeating "months of grinding, months of grinding, months of grinding...". It's years actually! You need 10 years to become viable in DFO. So Hallow Kitty Online would be the best option to play...
I'm way too carebear for Hello Kitty Online....
Either way, you could say it's to "warn" future players. The very first month is awesome and most of us can all agree, the first month was "Wow....this game is so freaking kickass, I'm getting my ass handed by the weakest monster in the game!" So far during the first month, they are having so much fun with the whole free roam, good AI monsters, etc that the PvP aspect seems trivial. Finally they sort of "burned" through the PvE and now want to PvP, but faces the wall known as "You need to grind for 6 months before you can actually be anywhere near usefull in PvP". Sure you can participate in Sieges, sure you can get an ally to buff you up in the 400 HPs as a new player, doesn't change the fact that you'll still be facing a group of highly geared players who hits you in the 60-90s while you hit in the 5-10s. Oh and did I forget to mention that they overheal your damage too?
If a new player is fine with grinding for 6 months before he can PvP, well he'll love DarkFall. But if people want to join DarkFall based on the Feature listed on DarkFall's website, DarkFall is not for them, because what the website says and what the game actually is are 2 completly different things. It's as simple as that. I'm not trolling, I really enjoyed the time I spent in DarkFall but I just can't stand the BS the "Everything is fine" crowd keeps saying over and over again, when the reality is, many of DarkFall's core features needs to be completly revamped.
In what MMO with pvp can you start over a year after release and compete in less then six months ago?
I agree in part with what you are saying and have to tell you your sixth month accessment for competing isn't accurate either. I would say more like a year unless you play over 8 hours a day, are in a guild that takes advantage of some things, or macro.
But, I can't think of a single pvp game that is a MMO that I can log into and compete in less then six months starting new without some form of help or cheating. Hell in other games I am not even sure if I could damage a vet from the start let alone compete.
Are you serious? Two games that come to mind are Warhammer and Planetside, in which you can be competetive right out of the box in PvP (in WAR at least in your level bracket). You can level a toon from 0 to 80 in WoW in a month, spend a few weeks gearing up, and then start arena'ing.
It's really sad that for a "sandbox" game, you need to PvE/crafter/harvester grind for 6 mos. - 1 year to be competitive. That's why I quit DF - I refuse to grind for 6+ mos. just to be able to really enjoy the game. It's really sad too, because there is a lot right with DF.
It's lot like Eve really, in which you can never catch up to a veteran's skills, but at least in Eve you can master a certain ship type and necessary skills in a few months.
Sure you can participate in Sieges, sure you can get an ally to buff you up in the 400 HPs as a new player, doesn't change the fact that you'll still be facing a group of highly geared players who hits you in the 60-90s while you hit in the 5-10s. Oh and did I forget to mention that they overheal your damage too?
And it will stay that way once you have maxed skills and stats.
I've been to the siege where there were no low level chars, and no low level armors (mainly infernal / dragon for destroyers). Support mages were hit for 60s by charging destroyers, while mages themselves were doing 5-10 damage, once they run out of presurged nukes.
And of course 3 mages could heal anyone from 1 HP to 400 HP within 2 seconds.
The problem I see with DF is the lack of a hard skill cap. The rate of gain is fine, perfect infact. The problem is the vets just get stronger and stronger with no MAX cap. I can't remember whether this applies to just skills or attributes or both but I remember this being a heavily debated point on the DF forums.
Ultimately, I think it will be the games undoing, it's just not viable to have a group of hardcore players who played from day 1 running around invincible to anyone newer then a year. It gave me a feeling of futility and doesn't encourage you as the OP says to grind for the skills.
DF was based heavily on Ultima Online, they should have stuck with UO's skill cap and lock/unlock system to choose which skills to raise and lower until you reach a max pool of skill points. This was just simply never an issue back in them days.
The problem I see with DF is the lack of a hard skill cap. The rate of gain is fine, perfect infact. The problem is the vets just get stronger and stronger with no MAX cap. I can't remember whether this applies to just skills or attributes or both but I remember this being a heavily debated point on the DF forums.
Ultimately, I think it will be the games undoing, it's just not viable to have a group of hardcore players who played from day 1 running around invincible to anyone newer then a year. It gave me a feeling of futility and doesn't encourage you as the OP says to grind for the skills.
DF was based heavily on Ultima Online, they should have stuck with UO's skill cap and lock/unlock system to choose which skills to raise and lower until you reach a max pool of skill points. This was just simply never an issue back in them days.
Skills are capped at 100, stats are capped at 110, HP is capped at 450, front damage is capped at 60 (except destroyers - 75 and mounted attack - 120), back damage is capped at 90 (except destroyers and mounted combat).
So vet is not getting stronger all the time - there is a way to reach MAX cap.
There are already dimnishing returns in many skills/stats, and next week we'll get serious change in vit / HP formula.
So vet is getting stronger much, much slower than newbie. For example: In the beginning you get 2 HP for each 4 hours of mining, and above 75 you get 0.1 HP for each 4 hours of mining.
UO skills were much, much stronger than DF skills. DF "magic resistance" (reflex) takes away about 2% of spell damage - who would want such skill instead of "greatsword mastery" - which adds 50% to total melee damage ?
Class based games have their own balance problems, games with skill cap have their own balance problems (plate mages in UO, or mounted mages in MO). DF problems seem really minor in comparison.
Of course game would be much better if you would be completely PvP viable after a month, using any combat style that you choose - and DF is SLOWLY getting there. Almost every patch and expansion closes the gap between newbies and vets playing 8 hours a day since launch.
I remember there was an article in a magazine that said MMO's are creating better leaders in the real world. Reason is they have to put there minds to being successful in said game and manage there characters and relationships and so forth well that saying doesnt go to todays games because they just make it easy mode for people like the OP. some examples city of heroes yes it wasnt hard to get to 50 and unlock the epic toon but yup they decided to instead of making it to 50 like everyone else the new people get to use there epics at lvl 20 which is makeable in aroune 2 to 3 days. Im not even gonna bring up the cough jedi cough issue. I must say some games do need some fine tuning but it shouldnt be easy mode for everyone.
Skills are capped at 100, stats are capped at 110, HP is capped at 450, front damage is capped at 60 (except destroyers - 75 and mounted attack - 120), back damage is capped at 90 (except destroyers and mounted combat).
So vet is not getting stronger all the time - there is a way to reach MAX cap.
There are already dimnishing returns in many skills/stats, and next week we'll get serious change in vit / HP formula.
So vet is getting stronger much, much slower than newbie. For example: In the beginning you get 2 HP for each 4 hours of mining, and above 75 you get 0.1 HP for each 4 hours of mining.
UO skills were much, much stronger than DF skills. DF "magic resistance" (reflex) takes away about 2% of spell damage - who would want such skill instead of "greatsword mastery" - which adds 50% to total melee damage ?
Class based games have their own balance problems, games with skill cap have their own balance problems (plate mages in UO, or mounted mages in MO). DF problems seem really minor in comparison.
Of course game would be much better if you would be completely PvP viable after a month, using any combat style that you choose - and DF is SLOWLY getting there. Almost every patch and expansion closes the gap between newbies and vets playing 8 hours a day since launch.
Slowly getting there? I dont see any improvment which closes the gap between vets and newbs. Yeah they increased the skill gain on mobs. That works fine, but all profit from it, so the gap stays in fact the same. And anything else just increases the gap. Newbs arent allowed to macro like vets did it unharmed for more then a year ... . Afk swimming was nerfed several times since launch.
Maybe they will finaly fix the broken core issues with the game (Q4), but as we all know and experienced by AV i doubt it, but still i got small hopes that they manage it, as it would be great for the game
Originally posted by BLeeDzACiD
I remember there was an article in a magazine that said MMO's are creating better leaders in the real world. Reason is they have to put there minds to being successful in said game and manage there characters and relationships and so forth well that saying doesnt go to todays games because they just make it easy mode for people like the OP. some examples city of heroes yes it wasnt hard to get to 50 and unlock the epic toon but yup they decided to instead of making it to 50 like everyone else the new people get to use there epics at lvl 20 which is makeable in aroune 2 to 3 days. Im not even gonna bring up the cough jedi cough issue. I must say some games do need some fine tuning but it shouldnt be easy mode for everyone.
Cant remember that playing DF was ever "hard". Earlyer it was even easyer. You had to grind less as you could skill most of the stuff being afk! Now its actually harder then before because you have to grind. You cant just make a macro like 95% of people done it before and go afk and raise your mastery skill. Now you can get (perma) banned after third time they caught you. If i remind the times earlyer where there always been 10+ people afk macroing in every city or even more.
If you thinnk it was harder to play DF before explain me please how it was, as i dont get whats "hardcore" about macroing.
Slowly getting there? I dont see any improvment which closes the gap between vets and newbs. Yeah they increased the skill gain on mobs. That works fine, but all profit from it, so the gap stays in fact the same. And anything else just increases the gap. Newbs arent allowed to macro like vets did it unharmed for more then a year ... . Afk swimming was nerfed several times since launch.
Few changes besides skill gains on mobs:
- shared cooldown on R100 AOEs (you don't need 4 magic schools to 100 - only one)
- shared cooldown on R50 / R90 nukes (you don't need more than 1 magic school at 90, and no more than 2 at 50)
- shared cooldown on whirlwinds (grinding only one 2H melee weapon, instead of three)
- buffed "Hymn" spells (you can be buffed to maxed stats for few mins)
- skill/spell scrolls (+5 gain if you have skill under 40)
- 2 x more magic skill gains (stacking with 3 x from PvE = 6 x faster)
- faster crafting skill gains from higher level items
- title quests (+6 to one stat for doing 3 quests)
- high vitality nerf coming next week (you get 300/350 HP much sooner)
- gaining INT from herb gathering
Of course they are not going to increase skill gains from AFK swimming or AFK macroing - but offer offline skill gains - the way to get high skills / stats without breaking ToS.
I don't say that DF is now perfect, or that the changes were sufficient. That's why I said that they are slowly getting there.
Skills are capped at 100, stats are capped at 110, HP is capped at 450, front damage is capped at 60 (except destroyers - 75 and mounted attack - 120), back damage is capped at 90 (except destroyers and mounted combat).
So vet is not getting stronger all the time - there is a way to reach MAX cap.
There are already dimnishing returns in many skills/stats, and next week we'll get serious change in vit / HP formula.
So vet is getting stronger much, much slower than newbie. For example: In the beginning you get 2 HP for each 4 hours of mining, and above 75 you get 0.1 HP for each 4 hours of mining.
UO skills were much, much stronger than DF skills. DF "magic resistance" (reflex) takes away about 2% of spell damage - who would want such skill instead of "greatsword mastery" - which adds 50% to total melee damage ?
Class based games have their own balance problems, games with skill cap have their own balance problems (plate mages in UO, or mounted mages in MO). DF problems seem really minor in comparison.
Of course game would be much better if you would be completely PvP viable after a month, using any combat style that you choose - and DF is SLOWLY getting there. Almost every patch and expansion closes the gap between newbies and vets playing 8 hours a day since launch.
Slowly getting there? I dont see any improvment which closes the gap between vets and newbs. Yeah they increased the skill gain on mobs. That works fine, but all profit from it, so the gap stays in fact the same. And anything else just increases the gap. Newbs arent allowed to macro like vets did it unharmed for more then a year ... . Afk swimming was nerfed several times since launch.
Maybe they will finaly fix the broken core issues with the game (Q4), but as we all know and experienced by AV i doubt it, but still i got small hopes that they manage it, as it would be great for the game
Originally posted by BLeeDzACiD
I remember there was an article in a magazine that said MMO's are creating better leaders in the real world. Reason is they have to put there minds to being successful in said game and manage there characters and relationships and so forth well that saying doesnt go to todays games because they just make it easy mode for people like the OP. some examples city of heroes yes it wasnt hard to get to 50 and unlock the epic toon but yup they decided to instead of making it to 50 like everyone else the new people get to use there epics at lvl 20 which is makeable in aroune 2 to 3 days. Im not even gonna bring up the cough jedi cough issue. I must say some games do need some fine tuning but it shouldnt be easy mode for everyone.
Cant remember that playing DF was ever "hard". Earlyer it was even easyer. You had to grind less as you could skill most of the stuff being afk! Now its actually harder then before because you have to grind. You cant just make a macro like 95% of people done it before and go afk and raise your mastery skill. Now you can get (perma) banned after third time they caught you. If i remind the times earlyer where there always been 10+ people afk macroing in every city or even more.
If you thinnk it was harder to play DF before explain me please how it was, as i dont get whats "hardcore" about macroing.
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
Then your post is slightly out of place. DarkFall had an issue during it's first year where everyone (most people) macro'd their way up (AFK Swimming to raise stats, AFK Harvesting/Crafting, AFK Casting Buff (to level up), etc). Aventurine did not take any actions against Macro'ing until a few months ago, and because of the heavy grind that is DarkFall, new players are left taking the path vets managed to avoid.
In no way should this have been allowed in the first place..
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
Then your post is slightly out of place. DarkFall had an issue during it's first year where everyone (most people) macro'd their way up (AFK Swimming to raise stats, AFK Harvesting/Crafting, AFK Casting Buff (to level up), etc). Aventurine did not take any actions against Macro'ing until a few months ago, and because of the heavy grind that is DarkFall, new players are left taking the path vets managed to avoid.
In no way should this have been allowed in the first place.
This guy got the jackpot
Vets could avoid grinding and newbs cant avoid it now. Thats the whole point. They had to invest a minimal effort while the newbs have to invest double / tripple effort to reach the same level.
I wonder how much complaining about grind there would be if every one could macro (integrated macro system in the game?) ?
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
Then your post is slightly out of place. DarkFall had an issue during it's first year where everyone (most people) macro'd their way up (AFK Swimming to raise stats, AFK Harvesting/Crafting, AFK Casting Buff (to level up), etc). Aventurine did not take any actions against Macro'ing until a few months ago, and because of the heavy grind that is DarkFall, new players are left taking the path vets managed to avoid.
In no way should this have been allowed in the first place.
This guy got the jackpot
Vets could avoid grinding and newbs cant avoid it now. Thats the whole point. They had to invest a minimal effort while the newbs have to invest double / tripple effort to reach the same level.
I wonder how much complaining about grind there would be if every one could macro (integrated macro system in the game?) ?
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
Then your post is slightly out of place. DarkFall had an issue during it's first year where everyone (most people) macro'd their way up (AFK Swimming to raise stats, AFK Harvesting/Crafting, AFK Casting Buff (to level up), etc). Aventurine did not take any actions against Macro'ing until a few months ago, and because of the heavy grind that is DarkFall, new players are left taking the path vets managed to avoid.
In no way should this have been allowed in the first place.
This guy got the jackpot
Vets could avoid grinding and newbs cant avoid it now. Thats the whole point. They had to invest a minimal effort while the newbs have to invest double / tripple effort to reach the same level.
I wonder how much complaining about grind there would be if every one could macro (integrated macro system in the game?) ?
Ok on some skills like melee masteries +60 and intensifies and some other end teir skills could be reduced, but the grind comes from the fact you need it all vs someone who has it all.
lack of specializations/cap/prestige classes, whatever is the main reason, that and bugged out mobs that chain cast surging spells.
Add this on top of the 50 other time sinks in this game, traveling, watching pking, banking, traveling( lots of traveling)
you have a horrible grind with imbalances all over and the performance of the servers are horrible in game, everything is buggy or jumping a lot, including players, and no its not my comp/network.
Then you have to farm Gear, lol, enchants are a btch, and well if you face someone who has em, you most likely gunna lose, so what do you need next? Leet gear that takes more hours of farming.
Now sure you can team up with 5 other newbs and go pvp, and then I own all 5 of you with 3 hits each from my mount and /fart/laff.
Or cycle a few Surging Aoe's and Nukes.
We need prestige classes, we need penalties for certain options but they also give a bonus, we need a good developed sandbox.
P.S. Incoming from a fanboy "Go Back to WOW", this is of course 1 of the 500 people still left active in game atm, who sat at the hivequeen and level'ed all his spells to 100, and exploited a golem to get melee masteries up, or macro'ed bekneath the world( yes you still can).
Comments
I haven't played the game since the first year of its release. Obviously, things may have changed. But that first year what you are saying wasn't the case. I would expect this to be the case for a game on its way out just trying to do what it could to hold on.
When I played WoW most of the low level BGs were full of higher level players side toons that were equiped with the best gear in the game for each tier that I didn't have access to. They called them tweaks from what I recall. These guys would just come in and fucking roll your group 99 times out of 100. Maybe things have changed in in this game as well BUT I am sure the fact the game is GEAR centric and getting that gear is a BIG BIG pve GRIND. I haven't played the game in several years but that IS the way it was when I played.
I hope you realize that I do agree they need to do something to make it a little easier but if you take the GRIND away from an pay to play MMO the life expectancy of a game is greatly shorter.
You can argue all you want with me about how grindless Wow or DoaC are but when I played them that wasn't the case. I played DoaC the first year and Wow the first year and came back for part of the second year.
IMO, this game has just as much grind as either of them had in the first year or so after release. Both DoaC and WoW had a lot more to do pve wise and you tended to not get ganked during the pve to often because of the world design. But to me I enjoy the aiming style combat, open world, and skill based instead of tier based player development system in DoaC better.
If you made a DoaC II gave it a non-zoned world with this style aiming combat , skill based character development, and some sort of lootable death for pvp I would be playing that game instead. DoaC was a much better game then WoW imo.
I've found the overall tone of the community to be the biggest turn off for me with Darkfall but you certainly have a point, if the games biggest draw is pvp I hate to say no one should have to go trhough six to twelve months of activities that are not fun to get to the fun of a game, the operative word being a "game" this isn't the Marines folks if you can't plug in and play and have fun at all times right away then there is something wrong with your game (and I hate to say it also something wrong with the people who think this is the way games should be designed and played).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Hp patch is coming next week
So if someone disagrees with the way that you think a game should be designed than there is something wrong with them?
This is one of the reasons I still check out this forum. The entertainment value can be astounding at times.
"...fun at all times right away..."
Gimme gimme, now now! And make sure I'm tucked in and safe while you're at it!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Eh don't bother. They liked DarkFall so much that flaws don't exist and they like everything. That's what I understand when I read some of the comments.
DarkFall is a great game with even greater potential but AV messed it up and only has 5k players yet "everything is fine"....go figure.
Of course everything is fine. The game is pure perfection. Haven't you heard? Darkfall is supposed to be niche. AV doesn't want more than 5k players. Only the most harcore of the harcore...
/sarcasm
@ those of you saying the mmorpg community is just used to easy mode grind games.
Let's take a look at mmo character progression in a few popular and relevant games shall we:
UO - You played the game, gained skills, and eventually maxed out, and continued to play and enjoy the game the same as the day you logged in. AFK macro's were used and it took maybe a week to at least max your stats. Pretty reasonable.
GW - Hop into the action. It's a pvp game!
WoW - It took a few months in vanilla wow to reach level 60 playing a few hours a day. Probably about the same grind time as DF. But wait... In WoW we did quests, dungeons, and hundreds of hours of content.
DF - A couple months of progression... but without lots of content to play through. No engaging story or quests lines to conquer, and no "content" to play through.
So if by EASYMODE you are referring to PLAYING a game, then I will forever support easymode. Hard does NOT equal challenging. I would say WoW progression is more challenging that Darkfall, you can't afk macro WoW.
Well, I have always found DFO to be a game you cant defend. You either love it or hate it. I miss the old days of eq1 where you simply grinded mobs with people. DFO is similar to that experience for me. No crappy quest line leading me through shit I dont care about it. In DFO, I do exactly what I want, when I want and there is no better way I should be spending my time.
I love that about DFO, among other things. I just wish more people loved it too
My motives doesnt matter same way as your doesnt matter to anyone.
And thats the problem. For me DF was advertised as FFA massive PvP game with insane seiges and ton of fun doing pvp, but reallity was the other side. Before i was even able to do PvP i had to do grind PvE (My sig in Forumfall "Forced to do PvE to be able to do PvP"). I dont mind grinding if i see an end, but in DF you dont see an end and thats the main reason i stoped playing DF. I was burn out about the way i still had to go. I was fighting against a lot of people including Neptun / Zxyz and ive seen how they play and what utilitys they use and i knew if i want to be on the same level i have to grind the skills / utilitys and stats. Im not a kind of person who wants to be or stay in the end or middle of the food chain.
I doubt you know what Devs want or going to want. You dont work for AV. You cant know it. Only thing you can do is just guessing as all.
Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOG
The largest handcrafted online world of its kind.
Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.
The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.
Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.
Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.
No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.
No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.
Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.
Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.
Craft any item in the world and put your name on it.
That how they advertise the game on their main page. There is not a single word about "grind, grind and more grind".
You joined DF 2009/2010. You knew already that this game is pure grind and little bit pvp like mentioned above 30% for a Full loot pvp FFA game!?
EvE doors
See the best doors on EvE-on!
That is the real issue, it wasn't advertised as a PvE game, it was advertise as a Open World FFA PvP with Full Loot.
Instead, it's a game where you PvE 70% of the time (to use Darth's numbers).....maybe it's you Darth who's not playing the right game? Because if you look at the game's features (see parts in red in Xianthos post) and the 17 minutes trailer, it's more like 70% PvP and 30% PvE....not the other way around.
Heh, it's hopeless. They will keep saying this crap about months of grinding... Really hopeless. They won't listen to you. Only keep repeating "months of grinding, months of grinding, months of grinding...". It's years actually! You need 10 years to become viable in DFO. So Hallow Kitty Online would be the best option to play...
I'm way too carebear for Hello Kitty Online....
Either way, you could say it's to "warn" future players. The very first month is awesome and most of us can all agree, the first month was "Wow....this game is so freaking kickass, I'm getting my ass handed by the weakest monster in the game!" So far during the first month, they are having so much fun with the whole free roam, good AI monsters, etc that the PvP aspect seems trivial. Finally they sort of "burned" through the PvE and now want to PvP, but faces the wall known as "You need to grind for 6 months before you can actually be anywhere near usefull in PvP". Sure you can participate in Sieges, sure you can get an ally to buff you up in the 400 HPs as a new player, doesn't change the fact that you'll still be facing a group of highly geared players who hits you in the 60-90s while you hit in the 5-10s. Oh and did I forget to mention that they overheal your damage too?
If a new player is fine with grinding for 6 months before he can PvP, well he'll love DarkFall. But if people want to join DarkFall based on the Feature listed on DarkFall's website, DarkFall is not for them, because what the website says and what the game actually is are 2 completly different things. It's as simple as that. I'm not trolling, I really enjoyed the time I spent in DarkFall but I just can't stand the BS the "Everything is fine" crowd keeps saying over and over again, when the reality is, many of DarkFall's core features needs to be completly revamped.
Are you serious? Two games that come to mind are Warhammer and Planetside, in which you can be competetive right out of the box in PvP (in WAR at least in your level bracket). You can level a toon from 0 to 80 in WoW in a month, spend a few weeks gearing up, and then start arena'ing.
It's really sad that for a "sandbox" game, you need to PvE/crafter/harvester grind for 6 mos. - 1 year to be competitive. That's why I quit DF - I refuse to grind for 6+ mos. just to be able to really enjoy the game. It's really sad too, because there is a lot right with DF.
It's lot like Eve really, in which you can never catch up to a veteran's skills, but at least in Eve you can master a certain ship type and necessary skills in a few months.
And it will stay that way once you have maxed skills and stats.
I've been to the siege where there were no low level chars, and no low level armors (mainly infernal / dragon for destroyers). Support mages were hit for 60s by charging destroyers, while mages themselves were doing 5-10 damage, once they run out of presurged nukes.
And of course 3 mages could heal anyone from 1 HP to 400 HP within 2 seconds.
The problem I see with DF is the lack of a hard skill cap. The rate of gain is fine, perfect infact. The problem is the vets just get stronger and stronger with no MAX cap. I can't remember whether this applies to just skills or attributes or both but I remember this being a heavily debated point on the DF forums.
Ultimately, I think it will be the games undoing, it's just not viable to have a group of hardcore players who played from day 1 running around invincible to anyone newer then a year. It gave me a feeling of futility and doesn't encourage you as the OP says to grind for the skills.
DF was based heavily on Ultima Online, they should have stuck with UO's skill cap and lock/unlock system to choose which skills to raise and lower until you reach a max pool of skill points. This was just simply never an issue back in them days.
Skills are capped at 100, stats are capped at 110, HP is capped at 450, front damage is capped at 60 (except destroyers - 75 and mounted attack - 120), back damage is capped at 90 (except destroyers and mounted combat).
So vet is not getting stronger all the time - there is a way to reach MAX cap.
There are already dimnishing returns in many skills/stats, and next week we'll get serious change in vit / HP formula.
So vet is getting stronger much, much slower than newbie. For example: In the beginning you get 2 HP for each 4 hours of mining, and above 75 you get 0.1 HP for each 4 hours of mining.
UO skills were much, much stronger than DF skills. DF "magic resistance" (reflex) takes away about 2% of spell damage - who would want such skill instead of "greatsword mastery" - which adds 50% to total melee damage ?
Class based games have their own balance problems, games with skill cap have their own balance problems (plate mages in UO, or mounted mages in MO). DF problems seem really minor in comparison.
Of course game would be much better if you would be completely PvP viable after a month, using any combat style that you choose - and DF is SLOWLY getting there. Almost every patch and expansion closes the gap between newbies and vets playing 8 hours a day since launch.
I remember there was an article in a magazine that said MMO's are creating better leaders in the real world. Reason is they have to put there minds to being successful in said game and manage there characters and relationships and so forth well that saying doesnt go to todays games because they just make it easy mode for people like the OP. some examples city of heroes yes it wasnt hard to get to 50 and unlock the epic toon but yup they decided to instead of making it to 50 like everyone else the new people get to use there epics at lvl 20 which is makeable in aroune 2 to 3 days. Im not even gonna bring up the cough jedi cough issue. I must say some games do need some fine tuning but it shouldnt be easy mode for everyone.
Slowly getting there? I dont see any improvment which closes the gap between vets and newbs. Yeah they increased the skill gain on mobs. That works fine, but all profit from it, so the gap stays in fact the same. And anything else just increases the gap. Newbs arent allowed to macro like vets did it unharmed for more then a year ... . Afk swimming was nerfed several times since launch.
Maybe they will finaly fix the broken core issues with the game (Q4), but as we all know and experienced by AV i doubt it, but still i got small hopes that they manage it, as it would be great for the game
Cant remember that playing DF was ever "hard". Earlyer it was even easyer. You had to grind less as you could skill most of the stuff being afk! Now its actually harder then before because you have to grind. You cant just make a macro like 95% of people done it before and go afk and raise your mastery skill. Now you can get (perma) banned after third time they caught you. If i remind the times earlyer where there always been 10+ people afk macroing in every city or even more.
If you thinnk it was harder to play DF before explain me please how it was, as i dont get whats "hardcore" about macroing.
EvE doors
See the best doors on EvE-on!
Few changes besides skill gains on mobs:
- shared cooldown on R100 AOEs (you don't need 4 magic schools to 100 - only one)
- shared cooldown on R50 / R90 nukes (you don't need more than 1 magic school at 90, and no more than 2 at 50)
- shared cooldown on whirlwinds (grinding only one 2H melee weapon, instead of three)
- buffed "Hymn" spells (you can be buffed to maxed stats for few mins)
- skill/spell scrolls (+5 gain if you have skill under 40)
- 2 x more magic skill gains (stacking with 3 x from PvE = 6 x faster)
- faster crafting skill gains from higher level items
- title quests (+6 to one stat for doing 3 quests)
- high vitality nerf coming next week (you get 300/350 HP much sooner)
- gaining INT from herb gathering
Of course they are not going to increase skill gains from AFK swimming or AFK macroing - but offer offline skill gains - the way to get high skills / stats without breaking ToS.
I don't say that DF is now perfect, or that the changes were sufficient. That's why I said that they are slowly getting there.
I wasnt talking about DF as I have never played it I was talking about how people continue to say they are not on the same level as vets when vets put in work in certain games. In my job a new guy will not be on my level until he puts in work that I put in so as games If I put in work for something and bust my arse for it. Devs should not decide to hand it away to newbies. I dont have much time on games so im not one of those hardcore on the game all the time types but I sure do focus my time when I do play anyhow Im drinking and I dont mean to offend or bring up ole stuff sorry all.
Then your post is slightly out of place. DarkFall had an issue during it's first year where everyone (most people) macro'd their way up (AFK Swimming to raise stats, AFK Harvesting/Crafting, AFK Casting Buff (to level up), etc). Aventurine did not take any actions against Macro'ing until a few months ago, and because of the heavy grind that is DarkFall, new players are left taking the path vets managed to avoid.
In no way should this have been allowed in the first place..
This guy got the jackpot
Vets could avoid grinding and newbs cant avoid it now. Thats the whole point. They had to invest a minimal effort while the newbs have to invest double / tripple effort to reach the same level.
I wonder how much complaining about grind there would be if every one could macro (integrated macro system in the game?) ?
EvE doors
See the best doors on EvE-on!
Another thread bashing grinding? do we need another one?
My apologies mr xian Im in the wrong area.
Ok on some skills like melee masteries +60 and intensifies and some other end teir skills could be reduced, but the grind comes from the fact you need it all vs someone who has it all.
lack of specializations/cap/prestige classes, whatever is the main reason, that and bugged out mobs that chain cast surging spells.
Add this on top of the 50 other time sinks in this game, traveling, watching pking, banking, traveling( lots of traveling)
you have a horrible grind with imbalances all over and the performance of the servers are horrible in game, everything is buggy or jumping a lot, including players, and no its not my comp/network.
Then you have to farm Gear, lol, enchants are a btch, and well if you face someone who has em, you most likely gunna lose, so what do you need next? Leet gear that takes more hours of farming.
Now sure you can team up with 5 other newbs and go pvp, and then I own all 5 of you with 3 hits each from my mount and /fart/laff.
Or cycle a few Surging Aoe's and Nukes.
We need prestige classes, we need penalties for certain options but they also give a bonus, we need a good developed sandbox.
P.S. Incoming from a fanboy "Go Back to WOW", this is of course 1 of the 500 people still left active in game atm, who sat at the hivequeen and level'ed all his spells to 100, and exploited a golem to get melee masteries up, or macro'ed bekneath the world( yes you still can).