Like I said, best games I have ever played have had this "lazy design".. but yeah, you didn't even try to prove your point, just some quotes from other forums of people who wanted jumping and then you act like that proves what you're trying to say? Really now?
I can go on about explaining how prioritizing works and that different devs focus on different things, but I don't think you're one to change your views on anything. Can you prove what you're saying, by examples or logic? If not, get out too. And by logic I don't mean "jumping is logical lol" which is what you were going to say.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I'm pretty much going on faith that they find a way to force people to branch out, as I don't know how I'd design the game to encourage that. The Sit 'n Camp method of group play is deeply engrained in old school MMO players, and you would need a pretty big stick or carrot to get them to move. Even if HP regens at the same rate whether running or sitting, maybe there's something psychological about recovering from combat by standing still?
People do the most efficient thing. You're not gonna beat any guildleves by just camping somewhere. That's enough incentive.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Hopefully they are doing it like in Everquest 1: sit down and eat drink in order to regain your health mana :-) -> people can socialize during the camp "break" -> way better community building. It also encourages crafting because alchemy, cooking would be finally important again!
The more I'm reading about the game the better.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Those of you arguing with the trolls about jumping can stop... just please stop already. That seems to be the #1 troll argument to why FFXIV will suck. Most of them probably don't even really care about it but they know it's a great way to ruffle some feathers. It's not even a sensible argument. In fact it's one of the dumbest I've seen yet. Leave the kids alone.
Hopefully they are doing it like in Everquest 1: sit down and eat drink in order to regain your health mana :-) -> people can socialize during the camp "break" -> way better community building. It also encourages crafting because alchemy, cooking would be finally important again!
The more I'm reading about the game the better.
Err... but we already know for sure that MP won't regen by sitting down and resting, and that parties aren't supposed to have to sit and take breaks to recover from fights.
Additionally, unless I'm mistaken, EQ1 foods were no different than FFXI foods: you eat them to get a minor long-lasting buff. The only difference between the two is that there were many EQ1 foods that didn't give a buff at all; aside from RP purposes, their only use was to keep you from starving. I don't remember cooking being important at all in EQ1 since basic bread cost a few coppers from a vendor.
And this is a bit of a side topic but I feel like I should bring it up. I feel like there are a lot of people who are accepting of the no-MP-regen concept because they're under the impression that there will be foods and potions available to replenish MP. I don't think this will be the case and in fact I really hope it is not the case. Aside from the fact that it allows people to dodge what I think is the main benefit of a no-MP-regen system — punishing parties that can't work together to use MP in the most efficient way — there's also the money sink issue. MP-regen items wouldn't just be "available"... they'd become mandatory. How many people, upon levelling up NIN, said "Wow, this is great! Not only can I dual-wield and commit seppuku, I also have the option to carry some extra tools that let me use Suiton and Utsusemi!" No... not at all. If you were a NIN or a sub-NIN, you had to have those tools (at least Shihei, anyway). They were about as optional as arrows/bullets for a RNG. If MP-regen items are available and useful, you'll need to have them because the game will be balanced with the assumption that you're using them. That's just recreating the NIN problem where you're constantly paying just to be able to be in parties. It was enough of a drawback for me that I never did a single level of NIN.
Like I said, best games I have ever played have had this "lazy design".. but yeah, you didn't even try to prove your point, just some quotes from other forums of people who wanted jumping and then you act like that proves what you're trying to say? Really now?
I can go on about explaining how prioritizing works and that different devs focus on different things, but I don't think you're one to change your views on anything. Can you prove what you're saying, by examples or logic? If not, get out too. And by logic I don't mean "jumping is logical lol" which is what you were going to say.
It proves that i'm not the only one who fails to see the logic. If it was 1/1000 that understood, like 1/1000 understand how politics really work, I wouldn't bother. However it seems more like 1/5 understands why jumping is needed. Although im pretty sure that 50% of those really want to just mash spacebar...
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Acceptable illogicalities in MMOs: Monsters always chase you down in the shortest route possible, 100% of the time. That is acceptable because maybe, in that world, when chasing people monsters are extremely intelligent, yet when making decisions a house cat could do better. However, once a big mmo or 2 make it so monsters chase you differently according to AI, it will no longer be acceptable. (examples: wolves chase you faster than say a big fat snail, cats try to catch up extremely quickly but only for a very short time)
That is why jumping is a must. I just hope SE realizes the MMO standard to beat is not EQ1 like it was in 2000.
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.
Hopefully they are doing it like in Everquest 1: sit down and eat drink in order to regain your health mana :-) -> people can socialize during the camp "break" -> way better community building. It also encourages crafting because alchemy, cooking would be finally important again!
The more I'm reading about the game the better.
Err... but we already know for sure that MP won't regen by sitting down and resting, and that parties aren't supposed to have to sit and take breaks to recover from fights.
Additionally, unless I'm mistaken, EQ1 foods were no different than FFXI foods: you eat them to get a minor long-lasting buff. The only difference between the two is that there were many EQ1 foods that didn't give a buff at all; aside from RP purposes, their only use was to keep you from starving. I don't remember cooking being important at all in EQ1 since basic bread cost a few coppers from a vendor.
And this is a bit of a side topic but I feel like I should bring it up. I feel like there are a lot of people who are accepting of the no-MP-regen concept because they're under the impression that there will be foods and potions available to replenish MP. I don't think this will be the case and in fact I really hope it is not the case. Aside from the fact that it allows people to dodge what I think is the main benefit of a no-MP-regen system — punishing parties that can't work together to use MP in the most efficient way — there's also the money sink issue. MP-regen items wouldn't just be "available"... they'd become mandatory. How many people, upon levelling up NIN, said "Wow, this is great! Not only can I dual-wield and commit seppuku, I also have the option to carry some extra tools that let me use Suiton and Utsusemi!" No... not at all. If you were a NIN or a sub-NIN, you had to have those tools (at least Shihei, anyway). They were about as optional as arrows/bullets for a RNG. If MP-regen items are available and useful, you'll need to have them because the game will be balanced with the assumption that you're using them. That's just recreating the NIN problem where you're constantly paying just to be able to be in parties. It was enough of a drawback for me that I never did a single level of NIN.
Exactly you got a minor buff from them if I'm remembering it correctly tough some food buffs gave a slightly better regain rate. Some classes e.g. Necromancer could transform health -> mana which was great. Even if there aren't potions I'm still accepting the no-mp-regen it will make combat slower AND more interesting -> no braindead buttonsmashing you have to use your brain. Great.
Theres also no standard to beat this game isn't trying to beat fastfood MMO X its going to be another FF game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Exactly you got a minor buff from them if I'm remembering it correctly tough some food buffs gave a slightly better regain rate. Some classes e.g. Necromancer could transform health -> mana which was great. Even if there aren't potions I'm still accepting the no-mp-regen it will make combat slower AND more interesting -> no braindead buttonsmashing you have to use your brain. Great.
Theres also no standard to beat this game isn't trying to beat fastfood MMO X its going to be another FF game.
Actually there is always a standard to everything you make. In various interviews the game creators are saying they will instill a new standard for MMOs. So obviously they're trying to beat something.
Have you ever worked ? That no standard thing makes it look like you're a 10yo that can spell.
Actually there is always a standard to everything you make. In various interviews the game creators are saying they will instill a new standard for MMOs. So obviously they're trying to beat something.
Have you ever worked ? That no standard thing makes it look like you're a 10yo that can spell.
Yep, it tries to beat FFXI.
But I dunno about the new standard for MMO's in general. Where have you heard that?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I cant find the interview it had that in anymore, i'm not a fanboi so I dont save all the interviews on my PC :]. A few quick searches for this only lead to people mentionning it would be the new standard in graphics back in mid 2009... when as of now they don't even have their best graphics ingame (now thats a fanboi hehe). I do recall the format looking like this except this one is recent . I couldnt find the one we're they spoke about their plans on what the game is supposed to be .
This example however might lead to think that for once, a company cares a bit about what players want in the game...
F: How do you feel about the feedback you’ve read so far?
NK: There were a lot of things we didn’t notice since we’re always looking at the game from a developer’s standpoint. There were a lot of things that players focused on that surprised us. On top of that, it was interesting to see some opinions unique to their regions. Since I’ve been away from FFXI for so long to focus on developing FFXIV, I’ve been feeling a bit distant from the players. Now that players are logging in (albeit at an alpha test level) and I’m going back and forth between the management and development floors for the first time in a long time, I really feel like I’ve come home.
--------------
Hopefully their standard isn't FFXI... if they use that as a standard we'll get the new class system and thats about it.
The 1000 melee classes/caster problem will only be greater with the no MP as most noobs will roll melee since MP might be hard to manage. (which is good for me i usually mage)
On the bright side, I did see a video of a 2man party, the first fight was at good speed, the second was the usual slowness of other vids, with the guy just chatting and saying FFS. So combat speed wise its fine actually. (mentionning this last spot due to previous posts I made)
Like I said, best games I have ever played have had this "lazy design".. but yeah, you didn't even try to prove your point, just some quotes from other forums of people who wanted jumping and then you act like that proves what you're trying to say? Really now?
I can go on about explaining how prioritizing works and that different devs focus on different things, but I don't think you're one to change your views on anything. Can you prove what you're saying, by examples or logic? If not, get out too. And by logic I don't mean "jumping is logical lol" which is what you were going to say.
It proves that i'm not the only one who fails to see the logic. If it was 1/1000 that understood, like 1/1000 understand how politics really work, I wouldn't bother. However it seems more like 1/5 understands why jumping is needed. Although im pretty sure that 50% of those really want to just mash spacebar...
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Acceptable illogicalities in MMOs: Monsters always chase you down in the shortest route possible, 100% of the time. That is acceptable because maybe, in that world, when chasing people monsters are extremely intelligent, yet when making decisions a house cat could do better. However, once a big mmo or 2 make it so monsters chase you differently according to AI, it will no longer be acceptable. (examples: wolves chase you faster than say a big fat snail, cats try to catch up extremely quickly but only for a very short time)
That is why jumping is a must. I just hope SE realizes the MMO standard to beat is not EQ1 like it was in 2000.
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.
Hopefully their standard isn't FFXI... if they use that as a standard we'll get the new class system and thats about it.
The 1000 melee classes/caster problem will only be greater with the no MP as most noobs will roll melee since MP might be hard to manage. (which is good for me i usually mage)
Well, this much I can say for sure: It's not only FFXI, but so far it doesn't seem like they're trying to make a new overall standard for MMO's that everyone should use.
"Komoto: We’re not particularly looking to revolutionize the genre or anything like that. I think we’re all just focusing on making a fun new Final Fantasy game that is also an enjoyable MMO.
Tanaka: Nevertheless, we’ll also be implementing systems that have never been seen in the genre before."
"What modern day MMOs have influenced the design and direction of FFXIV?
In addition to the team's original work on Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have been three recent games that have had some pull, but the FFXI community's feedback has been the most important factor in its design."
So yeah, basically FFXI is the game they want to top, but they haven't ignored the recent games either when considering changes.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
So the developers need to make boulders instead of pebbles.. got it. I'll report that once I get access to the beta.
But yeah, to continue from your chess analogy: Jumping does nothing in chess, just like it wouldn't in XIV. It's a good analogy.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.
Don't mean to derail the thread but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please? If you're saying that logic can't necessarily apply directly to everything in real life, okay that's rationally debatable. If you're saying that (to some small degree) what would be considered strong enough reasoning to be acceptable is based on the worldview of the individual making that judgement call, okay - fair enough.
If you're saying that logic isn't what it is: A science based on facts, years of tested hypotheses or if you're saying that the rules of logic are open to relative interpretation such as how one might interpret cultural differences or a work of art, that is simply false.
As a wise man once said: "You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts."
Anyway, on topic: There have already been several abilities announced that would allow classes to replenish their own mp as well as the mp of party members in combat - and there will most certainly be devices such as food and drink so that everyone can replenish them when needed. I think it will be balanced so that regeneration is not as large a problem as the op makes it out to be - this is supposed to be a more solo-friendly game than it's predecessor, after all. Perhaps, damage will come in smaller, steadier chunks to the tank and party, so that healing is about strategy over time, and possibly positioning.
I don't really care if there is no jumping action, as long as my character can do it by himself when needed. It really breaks any kind of immersion when you can't hop over a 5" ledge.
Anyway, on topic: There have already been several abilities announced that would allow classes to replenish their own mp as well as the mp of party members in combat - and there will most certainly be devices such as food and drink so that everyone can replenish them when needed. I think it will be balanced so that regeneration is not as large a problem as the op makes it out to be - this is supposed to be a more solo-friendly game than it's predecessor, after all.
Can you link somewhere that lists MP-restoring abilities? I have only heard of Thaumaturge getting one. I think it would be really counterproductive for them to sprinkle several abilities like that over multiple classes.
They've got this unique concept that hasn't been done before and I hope they don't neuter it by handing out easy ways around it. It would be like... imagine if someone made an MMO where there were thousands of spells to learn in the game but you could only ever cast each spell ONCE and then never again. Bizarre! Different! Controversial! And then imagine they put in a 20 minute run-around-the-world fetch quest to reset your list of banned spells. Now it doesn't matter anymore.
Jumping is overrated. If the game is immersive and fun to play, then you forget that you can't even jump. Each game has its own physics mechanic, and the longer you play, the more "stuff" it has or doesn't have from other games is never an issue. As soon as you log in and play, after some period of time, you become part of that world.
If you play the game and keep telling yourself "Why can't I jump.. i hate that I can't jump" etc. etc, then you really never got into the game. People say without jumping, the game doesn't "feel" real. Well, does the 13 year old with ADHD that JUMPS up and AND DOWN from the beginning of the instance to the end make the game feel "real" to you? In WoW, people jumping up and down all the time, especially in Ironforge.
That's when I realize that it's just a cartoon and not a world I can be a part of. I guarentee you that a highly populated area where people are walking and running looks and feels more real than a bunch of jack rabbits. There are people who will always abuse a mechanic for the worse, and you can't do anything about it. UNLESS, you don't have the mechanic in the first place.
Jumping adds nothing of substance to the game. I played ffxi for 2 years and never missed it.
As for the combat, I'd rather have the type of system in place for FFXIV than the twitch based system in other games. During long WoW raids in vanilla (MC, BWL, etc.) after a 4 hours session, I had the worst headache of my life. My fingers were cramped and my head was throbing. Originally, I thought it was the "rush of excitement" until I realized it was the fast track to carpel tunnel and a stroke.
My personal opinions aside, FFXIV's combat system is a welcome change to a market oversaturated with twitched based gameplay. WoW is overplayed, give me something different.
Can you link somewhere that lists MP-restoring abilities? I have only heard of Thaumaturge getting one. I think it would be really counterproductive for them to sprinkle several abilities like that over multiple classes.
They've got this unique concept that hasn't been done before and I hope they don't neuter it by handing out easy ways around it. It would be like... imagine if someone made an MMO where there were thousands of spells to learn in the game but you could only ever cast each spell ONCE and then never again. Bizarre! Different! Controversial! And then imagine they put in a 20 minute run-around-the-world fetch quest to reset your list of banned spells. Now it doesn't matter anymore.
As far as I remember, both classes have one ability like that. The cooldown for it is like 30mins-1h though, so no need to worry about that making getting mp too easy.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.
Don't mean to derail the thread but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please? If you're saying that logic can't necessarily apply directly to everything in real life, okay that's rationally debatable. If you're saying that (to some small degree) what would be considered strong enough reasoning to be acceptable is based on the worldview of the individual making that judgement call, okay - fair enough.
If you're saying that logic isn't what it is: A science based on facts, years of tested hypotheses or if you're saying that the rules of logic are open to relative interpretation such as how one might interpret cultural differences or a work of art, that is simply false.
As a wise man once said: "You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts."
Could you clarify, please? That is a college level exam question for philosophia 2. I could, but it would just be a TL;DR
But seeing you define logic as a form of science, it clearly means something totally different to you than it does to me. To me it's just like relative distance. The distance of 2.5meters, is always correct, however the distances that are far and near are always wrong. To me, the same applies to logic. The word itself is in no way precise enough to be defined as anything, it simply represents an idea, so does perception. Logic is the judgement that comes after perception. For a lalafell the rock might be a boulder, however for a Roegadyn it is completely different. Your definition of logic seems to equate to my definition of the word 'fact'. This being said, is it not logical that your understanding of my thoughts is entirely different than my actual thought? Perhaps it is I that doesn't use the correct word, but I cannot think of another word.
ie: 1 class should have to walk around, the other should be able to step over. The mid-sized classes should be able to jump It might not be fair, but why must a game be fair if life isn't.
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
So the developers need to make boulders instead of pebbles.. got it. I'll report that once I get access to the beta.
But yeah, to continue from your chess analogy: Jumping does nothing in chess, just like it wouldn't in XIV. It's a good analogy.
Guess you never smother-mated anyone then. If knights couldn't jump, such mates couldn't happen. That 1 jumping piece is what makes a game. Without it, chess would be very boring indeed.
Hopefully their standard isn't FFXI... if they use that as a standard we'll get the new class system and thats about it.
The 1000 melee classes/caster problem will only be greater with the no MP as most noobs will roll melee since MP might be hard to manage. (which is good for me i usually mage)
Well, this much I can say for sure: It's not only FFXI, but so far it doesn't seem like they're trying to make a new overall standard for MMO's that everyone should use.
"Komoto: We’re not particularly looking to revolutionize the genre or anything like that. I think we’re all just focusing on making a fun new Final Fantasy game that is also an enjoyable MMO.
Tanaka: Nevertheless, we’ll also be implementing systems that have never been seen in the genre before."
"What modern day MMOs have influenced the design and direction of FFXIV?
In addition to the team's original work on Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have been three recent games that have had some pull, but the FFXI community's feedback has been the most important factor in its design."
So yeah, basically FFXI is the game they want to top, but they haven't ignored the recent games either when considering changes.
I like how Komoto is unsure that everyone is just focusing on making a fun new game.... hehe
But since I can't find the interview, perhaps it was a fake that has since been removed, or a mistranslation that has since been corrected. I hope from that that they learned what happens when you release a game prematurely like AoC or WAR
Where did you get that from though, so i can read the whole interview
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
So the developers need to make boulders instead of pebbles.. got it. I'll report that once I get access to the beta.
But yeah, to continue from your chess analogy: Jumping does nothing in chess, just like it wouldn't in XIV. It's a good analogy.
Guess you never smother-mated anyone then. If knights couldn't jump, such mates couldn't happen. That 1 jumping piece is what makes a game. Without it, chess would be very boring indeed.
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
So the developers need to make boulders instead of pebbles.. got it. I'll report that once I get access to the beta.
But yeah, to continue from your chess analogy: Jumping does nothing in chess, just like it wouldn't in XIV. It's a good analogy.
Guess you never smother-mated anyone then. If knights couldn't jump, such mates couldn't happen. That 1 jumping piece is what makes a game. Without it, chess would be very boring indeed.
Ohhh, okay so since there is ONE class in FFXIV that has a jump ability, you can stop QQ about jumping now. Thank you.
You may be good at chess but your analogies stink! lol
Comments
Like I said, best games I have ever played have had this "lazy design".. but yeah, you didn't even try to prove your point, just some quotes from other forums of people who wanted jumping and then you act like that proves what you're trying to say? Really now?
I can go on about explaining how prioritizing works and that different devs focus on different things, but I don't think you're one to change your views on anything. Can you prove what you're saying, by examples or logic? If not, get out too. And by logic I don't mean "jumping is logical lol" which is what you were going to say.
People do the most efficient thing. You're not gonna beat any guildleves by just camping somewhere. That's enough incentive.
Hopefully they are doing it like in Everquest 1: sit down and eat drink in order to regain your health mana :-) -> people can socialize during the camp "break" -> way better community building. It also encourages crafting because alchemy, cooking would be finally important again!
The more I'm reading about the game the better.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Those of you arguing with the trolls about jumping can stop... just please stop already. That seems to be the #1 troll argument to why FFXIV will suck. Most of them probably don't even really care about it but they know it's a great way to ruffle some feathers. It's not even a sensible argument. In fact it's one of the dumbest I've seen yet. Leave the kids alone.
Err... but we already know for sure that MP won't regen by sitting down and resting, and that parties aren't supposed to have to sit and take breaks to recover from fights.
Additionally, unless I'm mistaken, EQ1 foods were no different than FFXI foods: you eat them to get a minor long-lasting buff. The only difference between the two is that there were many EQ1 foods that didn't give a buff at all; aside from RP purposes, their only use was to keep you from starving. I don't remember cooking being important at all in EQ1 since basic bread cost a few coppers from a vendor.
And this is a bit of a side topic but I feel like I should bring it up. I feel like there are a lot of people who are accepting of the no-MP-regen concept because they're under the impression that there will be foods and potions available to replenish MP. I don't think this will be the case and in fact I really hope it is not the case. Aside from the fact that it allows people to dodge what I think is the main benefit of a no-MP-regen system — punishing parties that can't work together to use MP in the most efficient way — there's also the money sink issue. MP-regen items wouldn't just be "available"... they'd become mandatory. How many people, upon levelling up NIN, said "Wow, this is great! Not only can I dual-wield and commit seppuku, I also have the option to carry some extra tools that let me use Suiton and Utsusemi!" No... not at all. If you were a NIN or a sub-NIN, you had to have those tools (at least Shihei, anyway). They were about as optional as arrows/bullets for a RNG. If MP-regen items are available and useful, you'll need to have them because the game will be balanced with the assumption that you're using them. That's just recreating the NIN problem where you're constantly paying just to be able to be in parties. It was enough of a drawback for me that I never did a single level of NIN.
It proves that i'm not the only one who fails to see the logic. If it was 1/1000 that understood, like 1/1000 understand how politics really work, I wouldn't bother. However it seems more like 1/5 understands why jumping is needed. Although im pretty sure that 50% of those really want to just mash spacebar...
However the logic is, when you move in a virtual environment where you are supposed to be role playing, and you figure out you need to run to live, to be blocked by a 1 cm ledge or a rock is completely retarded. If you dont want me to go there, draw a boulder, not a pebble, dont lure me to a place with an invisible wall. Is this explanation really neccessary?
Acceptable illogicalities in MMOs: Monsters always chase you down in the shortest route possible, 100% of the time. That is acceptable because maybe, in that world, when chasing people monsters are extremely intelligent, yet when making decisions a house cat could do better. However, once a big mmo or 2 make it so monsters chase you differently according to AI, it will no longer be acceptable. (examples: wolves chase you faster than say a big fat snail, cats try to catch up extremely quickly but only for a very short time)
That is why jumping is a must. I just hope SE realizes the MMO standard to beat is not EQ1 like it was in 2000.
Food for thought: Even in chess you can jump.
Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.
Exactly you got a minor buff from them if I'm remembering it correctly tough some food buffs gave a slightly better regain rate. Some classes e.g. Necromancer could transform health -> mana which was great. Even if there aren't potions I'm still accepting the no-mp-regen it will make combat slower AND more interesting -> no braindead buttonsmashing you have to use your brain. Great.
Theres also no standard to beat this game isn't trying to beat fastfood MMO X its going to be another FF game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Actually there is always a standard to everything you make. In various interviews the game creators are saying they will instill a new standard for MMOs. So obviously they're trying to beat something.
Have you ever worked ? That no standard thing makes it look like you're a 10yo that can spell.
Yep, it tries to beat FFXI.
But I dunno about the new standard for MMO's in general. Where have you heard that?
I cant find the interview it had that in anymore, i'm not a fanboi so I dont save all the interviews on my PC :]. A few quick searches for this only lead to people mentionning it would be the new standard in graphics back in mid 2009... when as of now they don't even have their best graphics ingame (now thats a fanboi hehe). I do recall the format looking like this except this one is recent
. I couldnt find the one we're they spoke about their plans on what the game is supposed to be 
.
This example however might lead to think that for once, a company cares a bit about what players want in the game...
F: How do you feel about the feedback you’ve read so far?
NK: There were a lot of things we didn’t notice since we’re always looking at the game from a developer’s standpoint. There were a lot of things that players focused on that surprised us. On top of that, it was interesting to see some opinions unique to their regions. Since I’ve been away from FFXI for so long to focus on developing FFXIV, I’ve been feeling a bit distant from the players. Now that players are logging in (albeit at an alpha test level) and I’m going back and forth between the management and development floors for the first time in a long time, I really feel like I’ve come home.
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Hopefully their standard isn't FFXI... if they use that as a standard we'll get the new class system and thats about it.
The 1000 melee classes/caster problem will only be greater with the no MP as most noobs will roll melee since MP might be hard to manage. (which is good for me i usually mage)
On the bright side, I did see a video of a 2man party, the first fight was at good speed, the second was the usual slowness of other vids, with the guy just chatting and saying FFS. So combat speed wise its fine actually. (mentionning this last spot due to previous posts I made)
Uncontrollable laughter.
Well, this much I can say for sure: It's not only FFXI, but so far it doesn't seem like they're trying to make a new overall standard for MMO's that everyone should use.
"Komoto: We’re not particularly looking to revolutionize the genre or anything like that. I think we’re all just focusing on making a fun new Final Fantasy game that is also an enjoyable MMO.
Tanaka: Nevertheless, we’ll also be implementing systems that have never been seen in the genre before."
"What modern day MMOs have influenced the design and direction of FFXIV?
In addition to the team's original work on Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have been three recent games that have had some pull, but the FFXI community's feedback has been the most important factor in its design."
So yeah, basically FFXI is the game they want to top, but they haven't ignored the recent games either when considering changes.
So the developers need to make boulders instead of pebbles.. got it. I'll report that once I get access to the beta.
But yeah, to continue from your chess analogy: Jumping does nothing in chess, just like it wouldn't in XIV. It's a good analogy.
Don't mean to derail the thread but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please? If you're saying that logic can't necessarily apply directly to everything in real life, okay that's rationally debatable. If you're saying that (to some small degree) what would be considered strong enough reasoning to be acceptable is based on the worldview of the individual making that judgement call, okay - fair enough.
If you're saying that logic isn't what it is: A science based on facts, years of tested hypotheses or if you're saying that the rules of logic are open to relative interpretation such as how one might interpret cultural differences or a work of art, that is simply false.
As a wise man once said: "You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts."
Anyway, on topic: There have already been several abilities announced that would allow classes to replenish their own mp as well as the mp of party members in combat - and there will most certainly be devices such as food and drink so that everyone can replenish them when needed. I think it will be balanced so that regeneration is not as large a problem as the op makes it out to be - this is supposed to be a more solo-friendly game than it's predecessor, after all. Perhaps, damage will come in smaller, steadier chunks to the tank and party, so that healing is about strategy over time, and possibly positioning.
I don't really care if there is no jumping action, as long as my character can do it by himself when needed. It really breaks any kind of immersion when you can't hop over a 5" ledge.
Can you link somewhere that lists MP-restoring abilities? I have only heard of Thaumaturge getting one. I think it would be really counterproductive for them to sprinkle several abilities like that over multiple classes.
They've got this unique concept that hasn't been done before and I hope they don't neuter it by handing out easy ways around it. It would be like... imagine if someone made an MMO where there were thousands of spells to learn in the game but you could only ever cast each spell ONCE and then never again. Bizarre! Different! Controversial! And then imagine they put in a 20 minute run-around-the-world fetch quest to reset your list of banned spells. Now it doesn't matter anymore.
Jumping is overrated. If the game is immersive and fun to play, then you forget that you can't even jump. Each game has its own physics mechanic, and the longer you play, the more "stuff" it has or doesn't have from other games is never an issue. As soon as you log in and play, after some period of time, you become part of that world.
If you play the game and keep telling yourself "Why can't I jump.. i hate that I can't jump" etc. etc, then you really never got into the game. People say without jumping, the game doesn't "feel" real. Well, does the 13 year old with ADHD that JUMPS up and AND DOWN from the beginning of the instance to the end make the game feel "real" to you? In WoW, people jumping up and down all the time, especially in Ironforge.
That's when I realize that it's just a cartoon and not a world I can be a part of. I guarentee you that a highly populated area where people are walking and running looks and feels more real than a bunch of jack rabbits. There are people who will always abuse a mechanic for the worse, and you can't do anything about it. UNLESS, you don't have the mechanic in the first place.
Jumping adds nothing of substance to the game. I played ffxi for 2 years and never missed it.
As for the combat, I'd rather have the type of system in place for FFXIV than the twitch based system in other games. During long WoW raids in vanilla (MC, BWL, etc.) after a 4 hours session, I had the worst headache of my life. My fingers were cramped and my head was throbing. Originally, I thought it was the "rush of excitement" until I realized it was the fast track to carpel tunnel and a stroke.
My personal opinions aside, FFXIV's combat system is a welcome change to a market oversaturated with twitched based gameplay. WoW is overplayed, give me something different.
I can give two shits less if we can jump in FFXIV. If I want to jump, I will go play Prince of Persia or Assassins Creed.
As far as I remember, both classes have one ability like that. The cooldown for it is like 30mins-1h though, so no need to worry about that making getting mp too easy.
Could you clarify, please? That is a college level exam question for philosophia 2. I could, but it would just be a TL;DR
But seeing you define logic as a form of science, it clearly means something totally different to you than it does to me. To me it's just like relative distance. The distance of 2.5meters, is always correct, however the distances that are far and near are always wrong. To me, the same applies to logic. The word itself is in no way precise enough to be defined as anything, it simply represents an idea, so does perception. Logic is the judgement that comes after perception. For a lalafell the rock might be a boulder, however for a Roegadyn it is completely different. Your definition of logic seems to equate to my definition of the word 'fact'. This being said, is it not logical that your understanding of my thoughts is entirely different than my actual thought? Perhaps it is I that doesn't use the correct word, but I cannot think of another word.
ie: 1 class should have to walk around, the other should be able to step over. The mid-sized classes should be able to jump
It might not be fair, but why must a game be fair if life isn't.
Guess you never smother-mated anyone then. If knights couldn't jump, such mates couldn't happen. That 1 jumping piece is what makes a game. Without it, chess would be very boring indeed.
I like how Komoto is unsure that everyone is just focusing on making a fun new game.... hehe
But since I can't find the interview, perhaps it was a fake that has since been removed, or a mistranslation that has since been corrected. I hope from that that they learned what happens when you release a game prematurely like AoC or WAR
Where did you get that from though, so i can read the whole interview
I had to look it up lol
Ohhh, okay so since there is ONE class in FFXIV that has a jump ability, you can stop QQ about jumping now. Thank you.
You may be good at chess but your analogies stink! lol
But can that class jump over the rock or will I flatten my nose on the invisible wall over that rock