Glad to see the OP survived long enough to finally get over "The Hump Of Suckage". The story was starting to get depressing and I was sure he'd quit. ... Glad you stuck it out, bro! See you in space!
Eve one is unique because of the "sandbox". The most important thing there is the community.
The toughest part of the game is finding your goals. For now, your very first level 4 mission was fun and something new, but in a few months you will see they are easy, repetitive and you can solo them. And sadly in high sec space it is hard to find anything better.
Eve Online is a sandbox game, while CCP decided low sec should be less dangerous than nullsec, things are different, when I was new to the game some explained: nullsec can be safer than both lowsec and high sec. Why? Because concord acts after someone put a hole into your ship, while your friends will act as soon as they spot a neutral in the lands of your alliance. But in a small corp everyone has to be part of the defensive fleet. Even people who prefer industry. When your responsibilities means you have to do someting you don't like it can feel like a secound job.
If my corporation would say: if you help to train new members, willing to work on industry, donate to help others, etc. and are useful to make our systems better and help us this way, I would love that. But when even characters without jump clones should risk everything, and even if they can't focus on eve fully they have to join the defensive fleet... Now that makes me avoid 0.0 space.
If low space suffers from perma gatecamps, it doesn't have good rewards for us, and the risks are the worst even? I wouldn't consider that as an option.
Moving to other corp and leaving friends behind isn't much better.
And in high sec, it is hard to find another goal to keep me going. I see how many players see this, and that many of them retire after 7 months, and I see that even if I came back from retirement (twice) I experienced the motive to retire. And in level 4 missions, if I cannot chat (cannot do something that isn't fully eve related) I would fall asleep.
I see the potential in the game, but I also see the problems.
I wrote some entries to a contest to explain why there is a lack of women in eve:
And if you check that site you would see more eve related posts, articles, etc.
But the conclusion is: Even with good ratings, good reviews, unique features and some happy players eve online has a low player retention rate, which limits its playerbase. And it is good for one kind of players who love 0.0 (or love nullsec piracy) but for others it offers very limited amounts of fun.
A game is fun if you can have fun with many of your friends, who might have different interests. Some of them are casual players, others are carebear industrialists yet others are hardcore PVP fans, and you can find new goals for yourself. When people leave after 7 months, that isn't about complexity, but it is about lack of fun for them and their friends.
It will be interesting to see if the author of this coloumn will be in Eve Online on his 30th week.
stop trolling this thread dude, the intention of cosy's post was alrdy clarified, all you seek for is some semi-flame war...fulfill your need for attention somewhere else, thx.
But the conclusion is: Even with good ratings, good reviews, unique features and some happy players eve online has a low player retention rate, which limits its playerbase. And it is good for one kind of players who love 0.0 (or love nullsec piracy) but for others it offers very limited amounts of fun.
This is the only conclusion ? I hope not because I am neither someone who loves 0.0 or piracy. That's not to say I don't like either but I do not seek either activity as my choice of fun in Eve currently. Thanks for generalizing and lumping me into 1 of 2 groups of people of which I am neither.
A game is fun if you can have fun with many of your friends, who might have different interests. Some of them are casual players, others are carebear industrialists yet others are hardcore PVP fans, and you can find new goals for yourself. When people leave after 7 months, that isn't about complexity, but it is about lack of fun for them and their friends.
And it could never have something to do with game burnout either could it ? Eve may not have the retention rate of other games but what Eve does have is a much more loyal fanbase not so quick to jump ship to the supposed next big game. Just look at WoWs sub numbers when games like Conan and Warhammer launched, a large portion jumped ship only to jump back again when they realized those games sucked just as bad.
It will be interesting to see if the author of this coloumn will be in Eve Online on his 30th week.
He's going to be done with the game I bet, he's already working on his "Surviving WoW" article posted around here somewhere. He's playing these games for his job, not because he wants to play these games. I do think he will atleast walk away from the game with some respect for it which is what this game deserves even if it isn't "your" type of game.
Yay for shameless plugs to poorly written half assed blogs about some poor girl who is clearly a WoW fan being coerced into playing Eve because it is free for her. She couldn't stop whining about the tutorials and how Eve didn't play like WoW, of course she didn't like the game.
God these articles about attracting more females to Eve are just stupid. They shouldn't be entitled "how to attract more females" they should be "how to attract the superficial instant gratification trendoids". Sure there aren't many females playing Eve just like there arent that many people in general compared to other games. Eve is a niche market game for a reason and has nothing to do with gender but a mindset. There are girls who play Eve, they just don't advertise it and flaunt it to get guys to give them shit for free like in other games. Eve girls have a little more class and self respect and they will ram an autocannon up your ass and take your loot.
I swear sometimes the people that do not like or get Eve just turn to hating it or trying to change it into something that it isn't. Are these people jealous or something ? Sometimes it certainly seems that way when you see the amount of trolls and uninformed articles written about Eve and how it would be so much better if it had feature X from WoW. These are the same people who will bitch about how crafting in a game like WoW is so pointless but then come over to Eve and bitch about the harsh death penalty but they will never be able to figure out that its the harsh death penalty that makes crafting meaningful. Who cares about name tags on the ship you just built, it's going to get blown up anyways. People seem more content with fluff and cosmetics like mounts and pets rather than an in depth gameworld to explore and feel a part of. Just look at the Age of Conan ad at the top of this page, they can't convince people to play their game because it might actually be changed and good now, they entice people with a new pet because that's what you people want.
Stay away from Eve, we don't want these kinds of people playing. Too many of these types of people may actually give CCP some incentive to kill what they have going in favor of a few bucks. Are you people not happy with having 95% of the video game industry catering to your whimsical wants and needs ? Leave Eve for those of us that want this type of game, we know it's not for you and you hate it, we get it. Now head down to your local crapulant game store or Walmart and pick any game from the big wall of trash games, doesn't matter which game it is they are all the same and will occupy your brain for the same amount of time anyways.
Thanks for reading my mindless opinionated babble, I may be wrong but I doubt it.
havn't read all of these but might I suggest doing a little non-useful research on eve. By that I mean the backstory eve related story's and just some general stuff of interest.
I just tried to get back into playing this game and was so bored. Just takes too long to develope your character.
Thats part of the games charm. Leveling up a wow toon to max level in a month then hitting the cealing of the games content would suck.
In eve there is no max level and you are not limmeted to a certain set of gear by some class system. This means my eve toon is always evolving [looking foward to ruling a nice little plannet in highsec or low so i can be a true amarr lord love it if i can export slaves too.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
How long does it take to train 26 "learning" skills before you can even do anything?!! I'm guessing weeks! Holy wasted time and effort batman. At least you are paying your subscription while you wait, that's a good thing at least.
You dont have to train any learning skills "before you can even do anything" Learning skills are just optional and they dont really make much difference in the beggining when skills take a few hours.
And, just in case your not aware: it takes ZERO effort to train skills, you just queue it up and leave it, you dont physically have to do anything, which means you can get on with doing anything else.
Thanks for reading my mindless opinionated babble, I may be wrong but I doubt it.
Yes, you are wrong. Lets see from a simple perspective. You say World of Warcraft and other games lose "soo much" people when you see something new. Yet, they are able to keep millions of fans who still play the game. They might lose up to 20% of players who might get back to the game later when there are a few events that can accelerate it, but they get most of it back. So most of the players who played for more than 1 month stays with the game.
Eve Online is different. In this case you don't even need a new game release to lose more than 80% of players. Who manages to keep more players when something new is released? other games.
Even niche products can have about 20% ratio of female players. Even games that are dedicated to soccer fans, etc. can have such numbers.
Your attacks (see your last few paragraphs) shows how arrogant assholes like you are responsible for low player retention rate, and it is your failure to understand that most players play a game they can play with friends. If Eve Online caters for selfish assholes who says "it is our game everyone else should go away" then a lot will go away and your game will be small, and soon the "influx of new players" to replace old ones will dry up, and your game will die. For a simple fact: majority of gamers who see an eve add will say: "I have already played this one". DAOC fans learned need for different players the hard way (when casual people, PVE fans, etc. moved to other games, guild fallen appart, PVP food chain seen fewer easy targets, fewer combats, fewer victories and it led to a deciline of playerbase.
Right now, it is likely that more people tried out eve online than most other MMORPGs, yet it doesn't have that many players, and while as amount of new "gamers" increase eve can grow for a bit of time (now) but the supply of new players will dry up for the game sooner or later.
While I try to help newbies, help with many projects often I need to do something else while eve runs, since eve is limited amount of fun and a lot of people I know share this problem, noone said you can't do stuff with friends, can't have fun, can't enjoy the game, I said in high sec past a 7 month barrier the game doesn't provide you more fun.
You say eve has a realistic economy Yeah, right. Without marketing, brands, product development cycles, to say a few things. Without products that try to ba a bit different to compete with each other. That is how you have a "realistic" economy. It also shows that corporations in eve doesn't compete in Research.
Feeding the masses (yes, people who live on stations, etc) is a maarket that doesn't exist in Eve Online.
Most of the income comes from loot from NPCs, bounties, mission rewards and not from actually industries. That is realistic economy and sandboxing for you.
Giving research, high sec "research outpost" a meaning and linking them to 0.0 warfare more (and also supplying the masses a source of income) wouldn't increase sandbox and freedom at all according to you, right?
Making security levels of systems (and rewards from agents) change based on how you "clean up pirates" from a system and making environment react and have dynamic missions enjoyable after 7th month would be "instant gratification".
When even CCP seen learning skill investment in the begining as an issue years ago, considering new player experience by making sure you need to learn a few other skills before learning skills to be able to enjoy the game would surely prevent you from training your titan skills, right?
(Also haad a typo, most of the piracy is in low sec)
Also CSM candidates are worried about risks vs rewards for entering low sec by players and how it hurts their perspectives (thanks to perma gatecamps at entrances to low sec) and their chances to find new goals and advancement...
And you say people experience "burnout" exactly when they reach where most goals in high sec become "unreasonable", regardless of how much time played, but it isn't related to game design but related to psychology.
I just tried to get back into playing this game and was so bored. Just takes too long to develope your character.
Thats part of the games charm. Leveling up a wow toon to max level in a month then hitting the cealing of the games content would suck.
In eve there is no max level and you are not limmeted to a certain set of gear by some class system. This means my eve toon is always evolving [looking foward to ruling a nice little plannet in highsec or low so i can be a true amarr lord love it if i can export slaves too.
Depends.
It takes 3 days to get past the tutorials and get to level 1 missions, which is intimidating for a few but it is good.
It takes a few days (a week or so) to be able to run level 2 missions, but in the meantime your character will feel improvement in several areas.
It takes a few weeks to be ready for safe level 3 missions in your BC, with proper skills and have enough learning skills and get some implants. It is fun.
It takes a few more weeks to be able to run level 4s...
And even at low end of this spectrum you can join fleets, read up on thigs, do some creative stuff.
But when it takes a few months of repetitive work to get standing for a jump clone, since with your implants, etc. you don't want to run into a perma gatecamp at entrance to low sec, and see you won't even try level 5 missions... That most high sec complexes aren't rewarding. That high sec mining wouldn't add much to the game... That these tasks are repetive...
That is when you run in the wall. This is the wall where most players "bounce off" and stop playing eve. Because at this time they see a real realy grind for standing to be able to use jump clones, long advancement to be able to enter low sec (thanks to gate camps) and industrialists, etc. already have most skills and the BPOs they love most.
To "demolish" this wall: Industry (including mining) should be able to compete with agent running, ratting, etc. in most systems in terms of rewards and income. The best would be ability to create items similar to faction and officer loot with unique stats based on research that would need materials tha must be mined (cannot be refined from other loot). Rare gems from refining. This would add several long term goals for industrialists, and some development cycle that wouldn't be instant (in fact it would be slow) that lets them to continue... of course for some items mining in low sec or nullsec would be required. (Say rare gems, and rare finds in asteroids would give you new reagents?)
Open "moon harvesting" for more players and companies.
I would add more complex "industry" related missions.
Dynamic agent missions.
More "risky" and more rewarding complexes everywhere.
Making gatecamps in low sec more and more difficult so let people go low sec space before they are ready to nullsec, and make this as a step (as planned) instead of a wall.
Things wouldn't be any faster, but would feel faster and better.
Thanks for reading my mindless opinionated babble, I may be wrong but I doubt it.
Yes, you are wrong. Lets see from a simple perspective. You say World of Warcraft and other games lose "soo much" people when you see something new. Yet, they are able to keep millions of fans who still play the game. They might lose up to 20% of players who might get back to the game later when there are a few events that can accelerate it, but they get most of it back. So most of the players who played for more than 1 month stays with the game.
Numbers of subscribers means quality to you. Too bad you are wrong. People left WoW because they are sick of it, the problem was that those other games turned out to be shitty WoW wannabes so why bother playing that when you can have WoW which already does what it does so well.
Let's also consider the fact that because of WoWs mainstream pupularity and especially the South Park episodes brought a whole new breed of gamer. I call these people "WoW Players" They don't play anything else but WoW and maybe a couple of facebook type games but they are not the typical "gamer" that you think of. The people got into WoW because their friends played it, they played it because celebrities started talking about it. They didn't pick up WoW because it was a good game, the fact that WoW is a good game doesn't mean shit to them.
Yes I do believe WoW is a good game in many respects but its the WoW subculture that is absolutely shit. Just a bunch of mindless zombies farming their badges so they don't get left behind by their friends, thats awesome game design right there, segregate you from your friends when you don't have the right level of gear or you can't login for the set raid time. I think I would rather have Eve where even a 2 day old new player can help me out in a meaningful manner and they aren't left out of some raid playing with their friends because they don't meet the gear reqs, aren't the right class or couldn't log in for the raid only to be left out for a whole week.
Eve Online is different. In this case you don't even need a new game release to lose more than 80% of players. Who manages to keep more players when something new is released? other games.
Eve is losing players now ? Eve is the one MMO out there actually growing in numbers despite it's niche appeal.
Even niche products can have about 20% ratio of female players. Even games that are dedicated to soccer fans, etc. can have such numbers.
So we need to change the game to appeal to more females ? Why ? Again Eve is a game designed by it's devs because it's the game "they" want to play. They are not designing Eve to appeal to mass market gluttons to consume in their never ending quest for more purples, achievements and pets.
Your attacks (see your last few paragraphs) shows how arrogant assholes like you are responsible for low player retention rate, and it is your failure to understand that most players play a game they can play with friends. If Eve Online caters for selfish assholes who says "it is our game everyone else should go away" then a lot will go away and your game will be small, and soon the "influx of new players" to replace old ones will dry up, and your game will die. For a simple fact: majority of gamers who see an eve add will say: "I have already played this one". DAOC fans learned need for different players the hard way (when casual people, PVE fans, etc. moved to other games, guild fallen appart, PVP food chain seen fewer easy targets, fewer combats, fewer victories and it led to a deciline of playerbase.
Yes I am an arrogant asshole, but not quite as bad as someone who injects themself into a discussion only to be plugging their blogs and crying about Eve and saying it should be more like WoW.
We aren't saying everyone else should go away, but we are saying that WoW kids and those that want instant gratification should stay the fuck away. You wanna come here and be cool and play with us ? That's awesome we have a full support system to teach people how to play the game, we just wont hold your hand and lead you like other games.
Right now, it is likely that more people tried out eve online than most other MMORPGs, yet it doesn't have that many players, and while as amount of new "gamers" increase eve can grow for a bit of time (now) but the supply of new players will dry up for the game sooner or later.
Yup and until that day happens Eve will keep growing as more people actually discover it and understand what makes it great. You again equate numbers with quality, do you understand why this is wrong yet ?
While I try to help newbies, help with many projects often I need to do something else while eve runs, since eve is limited amount of fun and a lot of people I know share this problem, noone said you can't do stuff with friends, can't have fun, can't enjoy the game, I said in high sec past a 7 month barrier the game doesn't provide you more fun.
I highlighted the important part for you in green. The game does not provide you with anything more thant he tools to play the game. It's up to YOU to provide your fun. I can see the sandbox is not a place for you, better stick to your themepark and be forcefed overpriced hotdogs.
You say eve has a realistic economy Yeah, right. Without marketing, brands, product development cycles, to say a few things. Without products that try to ba a bit different to compete with each other. That is how you have a "realistic" economy. It also shows that corporations in eve doesn't compete in Research.
Where did I say anything about economy at all ? The only thing I mentioned at all that ever looks like this was in response to was about the player branding on ships and what the hell does that have to do with economy ?
Feeding the masses (yes, people who live on stations, etc) is a maarket that doesn't exist in Eve Online.
Are you sure about that ? Have you talked to the hardcore traders in Eve ? They hardly ever leave station and they are some the richest and most powerful people in game. I don't mean power of the alliance or the Dreadnaught either.
Most of the income comes from loot from NPCs, bounties, mission rewards and not from actually industries. That is realistic economy and sandboxing for you.
This really shows your ignorance of how Eve works. Talk to all the pirates, scammers, thieves and marketeers about their income, oh wait they wont tell you shit because they would giving you secrets to making money without being another sheep running missions in high sec day in day out. Mission running is easy relatively risk free isk but it is by no means the best source of income even for solo players.
Giving research, high sec "research outpost" a meaning and linking them to 0.0 warfare more (and also supplying the masses a source of income) wouldn't increase sandbox and freedom at all according to you, right?
I will agree this would a good feature to the game. But this is not something you mentioned before now.
Making security levels of systems (and rewards from agents) change based on how you "clean up pirates" from a system and making environment react and have dynamic missions enjoyable after 7th month would be "instant gratification".
Security levels of systems, agent quality and standing all effect your isk income from missions.
Do you really think that after 7 months of running missions they aren't going to be boring ? Just like running your random heroics for badges for your tier 9 gear to start raiding doesn't get boring after a couple months ? All repetitive pve content in every game gets old fast.
When even CCP seen learning skill investment in the begining as an issue years ago, considering new player experience by making sure you need to learn a few other skills before learning skills to be able to enjoy the game would surely prevent you from training your titan skills, right?
Oh thanks for reminding me to go buy my titan skill book, I am still a n00b after 7 years and no titan. HAHAHA. I forgive you for thinking Eve is about obvious linear prgressions from frigate to titan.
(Also haad a typo, most of the piracy is in low sec)
Also CSM candidates are worried about risks vs rewards for entering low sec by players and how it hurts their perspectives (thanks to perma gatecamps at entrances to low sec) and their chances to find new goals and advancement...
The reason for that is because high sec is too safe and secure with good enough rewards for the scared WoW kiddies afraid of losing their little ship. This stems from the fact that many people who come from WoW are so ingrained with the fact that gear takes a lot of effort to get and the thought that they could lose their gear in an instant from one mistake scares the fucking shit out of them. Too bad they can't understand the fact that gear in Eve is easy to get and maintain a stockpile.
And you say people experience "burnout" exactly when they reach where most goals in high sec become "unreasonable", regardless of how much time played, but it isn't related to game design but related to psychology.
Move out of high sec, is that so hard ? High sec is there for learning and for those that actually do enjoy playing the high sec game. If you don't like high sec then move, try living in low sec or null sec, hell even try living in a wormhole, no one is forcing you to stay in high sec.
You are a funny one
How dare you insult me in such ways, you are so cruel /cry
I am one of those guys also that REALLY wanted to like EvE. I have over 1 year trained in EvE.
I trained up to AF's because I wanted to fly a Hawk. I also trained up to a Drake for mission running. I figured I could use my Frigate or Assault Frigates for PvP since they were cheaper to replace and use the Drake for PvE.
Problem is it's f****ing boring in this game to play alone. LIKE REALLLLLLLY BORING!
I join a corp in the beginning, who broke up not long after I joined. Then I spent about 4 months in a NPC Corp. Then I read about and joined EvE University. <--- Wasn't for me as I was 6 months in at this point and didn't need to figure out how to play, I was just kinda hoping they could show me where the fun was... didn't happen.
Spent another 3-4 months solo in an NPC corp.
Got a tell from someone in game recruiting for a new corp that would do everything in the game so to speak, mine, pvp low sec, and mission run. I said why not and joined. 1 week in I was the only guy logged into the corp most of the time. So that is about the time I quit EvE for the last time.
I feel as though I put a sufficent amount of time into this game. I feel as though I went down all the paths people told me would "make it better".
All I really needed to succeed was a very cool, ACTIVE corp who would let me roll with them to blow shit up, and unfortunately, after over a year of training, and doing everything everyone told me to do. That didn't happen.
It takes 3 days to get past the tutorials and get to level 1 missions, which is intimidating for a few but it is good.
It takes a few days (a week or so) to be able to run level 2 missions, but in the meantime your character will feel improvement in several areas.
It takes a few weeks to be ready for safe level 3 missions in your BC, with proper skills and have enough learning skills and get some implants. It is fun.
It takes a few more weeks to be able to run level 4s...
And even at low end of this spectrum you can join fleets, read up on thigs, do some creative stuff.
Thanks for the linear time line, luckily for us EVe isn't that kind of game.
But when it takes a few months of repetitive work to get standing for a jump clone, since with your implants, etc. you don't want to run into a perma gatecamp at entrance to low sec, and see you won't even try level 5 missions... That most high sec complexes aren't rewarding. That high sec mining wouldn't add much to the game... That these tasks are repetive...
Have you tried finding a mission runner you could pay for rep while they did their missions and you went and did whatever it was that you found fun ?
Have you tried running level 5s as a corp with a scout watching for camps and actually being prepared for PvP ?
Hvae you thought for a second why high sec complexes and mining aren't that rewarding ? Could it possibley be because CCP does not want people living there and making as much as the low and null sec players ? You seem to like the linear progression of ships but you don't apply that to the areas os apce to be in.
That is when you run in the wall. This is the wall where most players "bounce off" and stop playing eve. Because at this time they see a real realy grind for standing to be able to use jump clones, long advancement to be able to enter low sec (thanks to gate camps) and industrialists, etc. already have most skills and the BPOs they love most.
You are really stuck on those gatecamps aren't you ? At this point I am guessing you probably got ganked because you didn't take the precautions needed. The only wall here is your own stubborness to actually learn the game so now you have your crusade to make Eve like WoW.
To "demolish" this wall: Industry (including mining) should be able to compete with agent running, ratting, etc. in most systems in terms of rewards and income. The best would be ability to create items similar to faction and officer loot with unique stats based on research that would need materials tha must be mined (cannot be refined from other loot). Rare gems from refining. This would add several long term goals for industrialists, and some development cycle that wouldn't be instant (in fact it would be slow) that lets them to continue... of course for some items mining in low sec or nullsec would be required. (Say rare gems, and rare finds in asteroids would give you new reagents?)
Mining does need a boost and level 4 agent missions do need a nerf. Oh have you read the features and changes coming with the new expansion next week ?
I do agree with you and that industry needs more work and it is definitely an aspect of the game CCP is starting to focus on more now and hopefully even more in the coming years.
Open "moon harvesting" for more players and companies.
I would add more complex "industry" related missions.
Dynamic agent missions.
More "risky" and more rewarding complexes everywhere.
There is plenty of risk and rewards in low and null sec complexes. You just want those reward in high sec and that is not going to happen.
Please try and remember that Eve is a PvP game first and formost with PvE taking a backseat, just like how in WoW it's reversed and it shows.
Making gatecamps in low sec more and more difficult so let people go low sec space before they are ready to nullsec, and make this as a step (as planned) instead of a wall.
Ok this is yet another mention of gatecamps, you clearly have a problem here with this and I believe it's why you are trying to make Eve more WoWish. How would you make low sec gate camps more difficult ? Sentry guns already do hefty damage, are you trying to kill off piracy ? Are you too lazy to get a scout or check your map for activity ? There are things you can do to protect yourself, learn them instead of making thinly veiled gatecamp whines.
Things wouldn't be any faster, but would feel faster and better.
Yeah who cares about substance in a game as long as it feels like substance it must be substance.
Many people tries eve and we speak about millions of people.
Yet we don't have millions of players?
Why?
Because they left the game.
Even a 6 years old would understand that, but you aren't.
A game that can keep 80% of its players happy because it is fun to play, provides the fun we wanted from the game.
A game that can lose 80% of its players before they would ever see most of the "content" (0.0) fails to be fun on long term.
While traders don't leave stations they don't feed the masses (in an universe there are billions of invisible to you NPCs who live on stations, including agents, workers, etc) but feed other players. So feeding the masses is ignored.
Research and marketing is ignoreds.
While even better mission content would get repetive fast it would stay "fresh" for more time, if it stays fresh for 1 years, people will have more skills before they would find the game boring and would have more chances to reach goals outside of high sec.
No, it isn't linear, even my progression isn't linear. Eve is good because you have about endless meaningfull options for progression, but for industrialists most of it is vanished. And also: learning skill changes wouldn't affect you anyway, but would remove a problem where many people leave because everyone told them to learn learning skills and nothing happens. You would win something, and you would lose almost nothing (few hours worth of SP on new alts)
With granual change from 1.0 to 0.0 slowly most of high sec wouldn't be this safe, and some of the rewards could get reduced for high sec mission running. Say: Security levels can mean more random rats who might appear in middle of mission and running the mission in 0.5 would be more dangerous than a mission in 1.0 also: concord response times (and strenght of concord response) would change with every 0.001 of security level. Also insurance payouts can change with security level, etc.
Move out of high sec: too many gate camps at entrace to low sec, and my friends are in high sec mostly, and in 0.0 the terms we face aren't good for me. I know other corps have better terms, but I don't know people from them.
No, I didn't get ganked, but when I seen "intel says I would get ganked" I decided even if I would want to give low sec a try, I left it. When we had a mining op there, we had to move out because pirates shown up, and our hard core pvper friends said it is wise to move out.
Paying a misssion runner with an industrialist doesn't work, since rewards from industry and rewards from mission running are on a different scale. When industry were valuable (a few years ago) it was different.
Eve is a sandbox PVP game. Even if you kill rats, you make your alliance stronger, and since it influences PVP you are a target. Even if you sit in a belt with your hulk to bring Veldspar to corp hangar and make ammo later, it keeps your PVP efforts financed and part of PVP.
In WoW there is a difference between PVE and PVP.
In Eve there isn't.
Everything you do is just different part of PVP.
If you don't even launch eve online client, but launch adobe premiere and make inspirational video for a powerblock and your enemies respond to that with a video of their own on youtube that is PVP.
THIS is why Eve is good, and THIS is why industralists, mission runners, mentors, etc. should be once again a valuable addition to corps of all sizes who try to settle in 0.0 and this is why all of these kinds of players should be welcome in 0.0 if they accept the risks. And lowsec should be a transition between high sec and nullsec, and not the "most dangerous part of game" where you don't have concord and you don't have a good defensive fleet and NBSI (because it would lose you sec status, make sentries angry).
And easy to fix gatecamps at entrace: If you stay in 100km range from a gaate you could have a 2 minutes "concord protection timer", leaving this area would mean losing protection. You would have piracy in low sec, but it would be deeper and not at the few entry gates. And it would allow you to enter (without a 2nd account to scout, etc) and decide if you want to stay... But of course the risks would stay.
I know far more about both games than you could imagine. I have played both quite extensively since beta. I am fully aware of the positives and negatives of both games.
You say: eve doesn't lose players.
Wrong.
Many people tries eve and we speak about millions of people.
Trials that dont suscribe is not a player lost, it's simply a player that never existed really. Eve's subscription numbers keep going up year after year. How is that losing players ?
Yet we don't have millions of players?
Why?
Because they left the game.
Even a 6 years old would understand that, but you aren't.
You have the language skills of a 6 year old by the looks of it.
We don't have millions of players because it is not a game that caters to the masses. We don't havea game that 6 year old and his granmother can faceroll though content.
A game that can keep 80% of its players happy because it is fun to play, provides the fun we wanted from the game.
It's not fun to play, you have admitted it's an addiction. How man addicts do you know say they are addicts because it's fun ?
A game that can lose 80% of its players before they would ever see most of the "content" (0.0) fails to be fun on long term.
Where did you get this 80% number ? I am betting your ass.
While traders don't leave stations they don't feed the masses (in an universe there are billions of invisible to you NPCs who live on stations, including agents, workers, etc) but feed other players. So feeding the masses is ignored.
Try rephrasing in english since I am a 6 year old moronic asshole, I haven't learned gibberish yet, sorry.
Research and marketing is ignoreds.
While even better mission content would get repetive fast it would stay "fresh" for more time, if it stays fresh for 1 years, people will have more skills before they would find the game boring and would have more chances to reach goals outside of high sec.
PvE content stay fresh for a year ? HAHAHAHAAHA No game, not even PvE centric games can keep it's PvE content fresh for a year, nice pipedream though.
No, it isn't linear, even my progression isn't linear. Eve is good because you have about endless meaningfull options for progression, but for industrialists most of it is vanished. And also: learning skill changes wouldn't affect you anyway, but would remove a problem where many people leave because everyone told them to learn learning skills and nothing happens. You would win something, and you would lose almost nothing (few hours worth of SP on new alts)
I am not debating you on learning skills or industrialists needing love. I agree with you on this point. God I would even support giving new players 5 million skillpoints in all the basic fitting and combat skills if I thought it would keep them playing the game the way Eve is meant to be played andnot dumbed down to WoW standards.
With granual change from 1.0 to 0.0 slowly most of high sec wouldn't be this safe, and some of the rewards could get reduced for high sec mission running. Say: Security levels can mean more random rats who might appear in middle of mission and running the mission in 0.5 would be more dangerous than a mission in 1.0 also: concord response times (and strenght of concord response) would change with every 0.001 of security level. Also insurance payouts can change with security level, etc.
High and low sec combat plexs do have a chance to spawn additional NPCs that can drop faction loot already. Missions in .5 are more dangerous than 1.0, in .5 systems chances are there's a .4 system right next to it you might have to go into.
Concord does respond differently depending on security status. They are much faster in 1.0 than .5.
Move out of high sec: too many gate camps at entrace to low sec, and my friends are in high sec mostly, and in 0.0 the terms we face aren't good for me. I know other corps have better terms, but I don't know people from them.
Have you thought about setting up in wormhole space ?
I yet to see 7 months trials, people who paid for 7 months are players, and when they leave en masse they are lost players.
Even complex (and niche) games tend to keep more players than eve... And eve loses players who came to eve because eve promised something unique and interesting yet they aren't happy with the results.
Probably more than 80% of people leave after 7 months... Sadly
It is in english. In an endless space there are endless amount of NPCs you don't see. They maintain systems on outposts, they live on planets, etc. If you would have to give them food and tools to keep your systems, economical warfare would offer far more challenges.
WH space can fresh for some more time, due to different AI, and games with strong storylines (where players can determine outcome) can keep PVE fresh with storylines. (Agents that would work for PC corps, storylines set up by big alliances, etc. would make the PVE fresh far longer)
The lower skill points start and accelerated training in begining can help players with a sense of progress they don't need instant stuff, maybe I would give them a "temporary bonus" to "learning skills" that diminish over time. Picking up learning skill while you have the bonus would be pointless.
Checked insurance changes, they don't work like this. Checked stuff in SiSi and as an Industrialist I am still not happy. Concord response is still fast enough to make high sec safe. I know that Level 4, quality 18 agent in Yarebap (a 0.5 system) gives better rewards than many high sec agents, since it is in 0.5 system. You know how many jumps I would need to make to reach low sec? And when was the last time when it gave a mission that sent me to low sec?
The same system has a level 2 agent for same corp. A neighboring system has a level 3 agent, the system on the other side has a storyline agent, they don't send anyone to low sec.
While complexes have extra NPCs with faction loot, lower sec systems doesn't make your missions riskier with more NPCs without faction loot. Too many faction loot in high sec space makes manufactured items worthless and they shouldn't be farmed that easily in high sec complexes.
Yes, I have checked WHs, and they would be a good thing, and sleeper AI can make PVE a bit fresh, but sadly they have two disadvantages: You can't take too many newbies with you, and most newbies would have a hard time in most WH space places. But it can be something fresh with a fast T2 ship.
We don't have millions of players because it is not a game that caters to the masses. We don't havea game that 6 year old and his granmother can faceroll though content.
I will reply to this one: I think Eve would cater to more people than wow ever will if it would build on some of its potential. There are many fans of incredibly complex tycoon games, with some more stock market, better charts for market, etc. more love to industry, manufacturing, research Eve online would be able to target fans of complex tyooon games effectively.
With better focus in research (and customizaion) and a lot of chances to put up advertisements in game (with in game video editor maybe and in game video recording), it would an instant get option for many of the creative folks,
With linked games (like dust 514 will be) that can attract console / casual players who can be part of the same universe, the same sandbox, in eve you would be able to play with most of your friends.
With making training and recruiting more important, a lot of woman who love to do HR stuff would love Eve, and yes HR would be part of your wars.
Ambulation like stuff could help a bit...
If I would change on thing, I would make manual control for ships that gives you an "elite like" handling in addition to the current "command based" handling. Which would add more skill (and less jamming) to PVP and much much more fun for risker side of PVE. Of course I would add multiple member ship crew options, where new players can play "gunners" on your ship (maybe even if they have a console game that links with Eve). A small change, and I think it is in spirit of the eve...
Making "fun" challenges to manufacturing, and ability to recruit casual players to help with the tasks at the station, who could try eve as part of the community to make player retention rate higher. Yet they would help in sandbox PVP (Economical and industrial warfare) from day #1.
I yet to see 7 months trials, people who paid for 7 months are players, and when they leave en masse they are lost players.
Even complex (and niche) games tend to keep more players than eve... And eve loses players who came to eve because eve promised something unique and interesting yet they aren't happy with the results.
And yet if still the ONLY mmo on the market today GROWING in numbers. Even the mighty WoW as plateued and starting to fall off due to player boredom.
Probably more than 80% of people leave after 7 months... Sadly
Again I ask where these numbers are coming from other than your ass.
It is in english. In an endless space there are endless amount of NPCs you don't see. They maintain systems on outposts, they live on planets, etc. If you would have to give them food and tools to keep your systems, economical warfare would offer far more challenges.
Ok I think I get what you are trying to say here, you want a bunch of goods created by the players that can be sold and traded to the NPCs in the game that theoretically live in stations ?
If this is what you saying then I just have to say. No, this is a terrible idea, CCP is trying to get away with all forms of npc supply and demand in the game. Tyrannis' PI is a great step in this direction by removing things like POS fuel and Nanite paste fromt he npc suppliers into the hands of the players.
WH space can fresh for some more time, due to different AI, and games with strong storylines (where players can determine outcome) can keep PVE fresh with storylines. (Agents that would work for PC corps, storylines set up by big alliances, etc. would make the PVE fresh far longer)
Orrrrr, they could make all missions actually created by the players and corps for their members. They could make player controlled NPCs like SWG had that you can setup with missions for other players. Oh wait they are doing that, go check out some of the fanfest and dev convention videos out there and see what CCP has in store for this wonderous game.
The lower skill points start and accelerated training in begining can help players with a sense of progress they don't need instant stuff, maybe I would give them a "temporary bonus" to "learning skills" that diminish over time. Picking up learning skill while you have the bonus would be pointless.
New players already get a skill train time boost. The debate about lerning skills has been brought up before and my stance would be "I really don't care if CCP decided to remove them" Doesn't bother me one bit.
You mention the "sense of pregression". This is where it's the player mental block that's the problem not the game. People are so ingrained with the hand help obvious path progression from other games if they don't have that they feel lost and scared and run away from the game.
Checked insurance changes, they don't work like this. Checked stuff in SiSi and as an Industrialist I am still not happy. Concord response is still fast enough to make high sec safe. I know that Level 4, quality 18 agent in Yarebap (a 0.5 system) gives better rewards than many high sec agents, since it is in 0.5 system. You know how many jumps I would need to make to reach low sec? And when was the last time when it gave a mission that sent me to low sec?
The same system has a level 2 agent for same corp. A neighboring system has a level 3 agent, the system on the other side has a storyline agent, they don't send anyone to low sec.
While complexes have extra NPCs with faction loot, lower sec systems doesn't make your missions riskier with more NPCs without faction loot. Too many faction loot in high sec space makes manufactured items worthless and they shouldn't be farmed that easily in high sec complexes.
All this effort to enhance and change the PvE aspect of a PvP game ? Why ? Why would you want to push Eve to being a more PvE centric game when it simpley is not designed to be ? I think the 0.0 alliances would have a shit fit and rightfully so if that happened, god they are already having one with this expansion being more focused on the industrial side of things.
You know why CCP is catering to that crowd ? Because instead of trying to convince a demographic that doesn't belong in this game that they should be here they are doing what they can to further develop what has gotten them this far.
Yes, I have checked WHs, and they would be a good thing, and sleeper AI can make PVE a bit fresh, but sadly they have two disadvantages: You can't take too many newbies with you, and most newbies would have a hard time in most WH space places. But it can be something fresh with a fast T2 ship.
A newbie on their own would get chewed up and spit out for sure, but this content is meant to be the group content. Take a corp of 10 or more people mix of new and old players into a class 3 or 4 system and setup a POS and live out of it. New playes can help with scanning down sites and making sure your entrances are watched for incoming hostiles. New players can salvage and loot and survive in cruisers long enough to warp out when targeted. Your industrialists can can make ships and ammo that is needed by others in wormholes, ships get blown up, your high sec corp members can bring goods when an appropriate WH opens up to get supplies in.
No tech 2 ships would be needed, you can bring them if you want but they are not needed. Build a bunch of battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers and destroyers.
All come from NPCs, rats, agents, NPC corps selling stuff, etc.
The amount of value given out by NPCs should taken away from other people, so NPC corporations and NPC rats should have a neutral role in economy. Even skillbooks should vanish if some PC doesn't supply an industry with materials: Want good refinining in a high sec station? Well: you would have to build it up.
And corps in high sec should face an economic warfare even in high sec. They should try to fight for the newbies who help to make high sec refining possible... This is why I suggest NPC demand to even out the NPC supply.
You want to see faction ship offered at a station? Well, if not enough industry chars use that station to make it possible, it shouldn't happen.
You think it would make NPCs more important if they would need supplies, I would say it would make them less important. Decisions of players should have far higher effect even in high sec. You don't finance concord in a system and don't help to clean up pirates when you agents ask to? Too bad, concord will be too busy and understaffed and undergeared to respond.
Sense of progression, sense of success, having your own goals (you set tem in a sandbox) and reaching them is a major motive to play games.
You seem to ignored the key of my comment about yarebap: it is 0.5 but it isn't riskier than 1.0. And sadly industrialists don't get rewards.
Many newbies don't even have a cruiser yet
Edit: better explanation... If what we have as security level would be a "population" level, and would tell us its potential, but without supplies and activity it would be empty. No agents, no services, no concord, on insurance, no skillbooks, no LP store, etc.
Based on what would you do in the system their "ratings" would improve, even population specific stuff such as "NPC security". It would show up as sme guards as station, then some sentries at gates, etc... and build up to some concord presence. The population level would act as a "multiplier" so in a 0.5 system you would need 2 times as much effort for same npc services / security.
All come from NPCs, rats, agents, NPC corps selling stuff, etc.
The amount of value given out by NPCs should taken away from other people, so NPC corporations and NPC rats should have a neutral role in economy. Even skillbooks should vanish if some PC doesn't supply an industry with materials: Want good refinining in a high sec station? Well: you would have to build it up.
And corps in high sec should face an economic warfare even in high sec. They should try to fight for the newbies who help to make high sec refining possible... This is why I suggest NPC demand to even out the NPC supply.
You want to see faction ship offered at a station? Well, if not enough industry chars use that station to make it possible, it shouldn't happen.
You think it would make NPCs more important if they would need supplies, I would say it would make them less important. Decisions of players should have far higher effect even in high sec. You don't finance concord in a system and don't help to clean up pirates when you agents ask to? Too bad, concord will be too busy and understaffed and undergeared to respond.
Sense of progression, sense of success, having your own goals (you set tem in a sandbox) and reaching them is a major motive to play games.
You seem to ignored the key of my comment about yarebap: it is 0.5 but it isn't riskier than 1.0. And sadly industrialists don't get rewards.
Many newbies don't even have a cruiser yet
Edit: better explanation... If what we have as security level would be a "population" level, and would tell us its potential, but without supplies and activity it would be empty. No agents, no services, no concord, on insurance, no skillbooks, no LP store, etc.
Based on what would you do in the system their "ratings" would improve, even population specific stuff such as "NPC security". It would show up as sme guards as station, then some sentries at gates, etc... and build up to some concord presence. The population level would act as a "multiplier" so in a 0.5 system you would need 2 times as much effort for same npc services / security.
I think I understand what you are saying and if I am understanding you correctly I do not disagree with any of it. Where I would disagree is with the approcah to solving a problem or adding in this type of content you are speaking of. The reason I disagree is because to me it seems more like a PvE centric approach where I support a more PvP centric approach which really is the way CCP has always tried to balance the game.
More stuff under control and manufacture of the players is a good thing but it is not something that can just be changed overnight, it would destroy the in game economy and probably the game itself in the process.
The way I see things right now is high sec is too lucritive for it's risk level as it is, it's too easy to make more than enough money you need for day to day play. Combine that with the fact that low is sec is in fact a more dangerous place than null sec and you got that barrier where new players feel like they are boxed in and their gaming options limited.
CCP really needs to improve the bounty hunter profession and systems in place, it really is one of the true broken parts of Eve that everyone ignores. Vast improvements here would actually give incentives to go hunt and kill pirates rather than just avoid them like we do now. Doing this would in turn allow more corps with a higher percentage of new players to enter the more dangerous parts of space to occupy and live there instead of treating it like running the gauntlet for a mission.
Comments
Glad to see the OP survived long enough to finally get over "The Hump Of Suckage". The story was starting to get depressing and I was sure he'd quit. ... Glad you stuck it out, bro! See you in space!
Eve one is unique because of the "sandbox". The most important thing there is the community.
The toughest part of the game is finding your goals. For now, your very first level 4 mission was fun and something new, but in a few months you will see they are easy, repetitive and you can solo them. And sadly in high sec space it is hard to find anything better.
Eve Online is a sandbox game, while CCP decided low sec should be less dangerous than nullsec, things are different, when I was new to the game some explained: nullsec can be safer than both lowsec and high sec. Why? Because concord acts after someone put a hole into your ship, while your friends will act as soon as they spot a neutral in the lands of your alliance. But in a small corp everyone has to be part of the defensive fleet. Even people who prefer industry. When your responsibilities means you have to do someting you don't like it can feel like a secound job.
If my corporation would say: if you help to train new members, willing to work on industry, donate to help others, etc. and are useful to make our systems better and help us this way, I would love that. But when even characters without jump clones should risk everything, and even if they can't focus on eve fully they have to join the defensive fleet... Now that makes me avoid 0.0 space.
If low space suffers from perma gatecamps, it doesn't have good rewards for us, and the risks are the worst even? I wouldn't consider that as an option.
Moving to other corp and leaving friends behind isn't much better.
And in high sec, it is hard to find another goal to keep me going. I see how many players see this, and that many of them retire after 7 months, and I see that even if I came back from retirement (twice) I experienced the motive to retire. And in level 4 missions, if I cannot chat (cannot do something that isn't fully eve related) I would fall asleep.
I see the potential in the game, but I also see the problems.
I wrote some entries to a contest to explain why there is a lack of women in eve:
http://forum.enerla.net/blogs/theelf/169-ladies-eve-blog-banter.html
And if you check that site you would see more eve related posts, articles, etc.
But the conclusion is: Even with good ratings, good reviews, unique features and some happy players eve online has a low player retention rate, which limits its playerbase. And it is good for one kind of players who love 0.0 (or love nullsec piracy) but for others it offers very limited amounts of fun.
A game is fun if you can have fun with many of your friends, who might have different interests. Some of them are casual players, others are carebear industrialists yet others are hardcore PVP fans, and you can find new goals for yourself. When people leave after 7 months, that isn't about complexity, but it is about lack of fun for them and their friends.
It will be interesting to see if the author of this coloumn will be in Eve Online on his 30th week.
For some even the 52nd day is a challenge:
http://forum.enerla.net/content/219-52-days-eve-online.html
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LoL good luck with that one.
Yay for shameless plugs to poorly written half assed blogs about some poor girl who is clearly a WoW fan being coerced into playing Eve because it is free for her. She couldn't stop whining about the tutorials and how Eve didn't play like WoW, of course she didn't like the game.
God these articles about attracting more females to Eve are just stupid. They shouldn't be entitled "how to attract more females" they should be "how to attract the superficial instant gratification trendoids". Sure there aren't many females playing Eve just like there arent that many people in general compared to other games. Eve is a niche market game for a reason and has nothing to do with gender but a mindset. There are girls who play Eve, they just don't advertise it and flaunt it to get guys to give them shit for free like in other games. Eve girls have a little more class and self respect and they will ram an autocannon up your ass and take your loot.
I swear sometimes the people that do not like or get Eve just turn to hating it or trying to change it into something that it isn't. Are these people jealous or something ? Sometimes it certainly seems that way when you see the amount of trolls and uninformed articles written about Eve and how it would be so much better if it had feature X from WoW. These are the same people who will bitch about how crafting in a game like WoW is so pointless but then come over to Eve and bitch about the harsh death penalty but they will never be able to figure out that its the harsh death penalty that makes crafting meaningful. Who cares about name tags on the ship you just built, it's going to get blown up anyways. People seem more content with fluff and cosmetics like mounts and pets rather than an in depth gameworld to explore and feel a part of. Just look at the Age of Conan ad at the top of this page, they can't convince people to play their game because it might actually be changed and good now, they entice people with a new pet because that's what you people want.
Stay away from Eve, we don't want these kinds of people playing. Too many of these types of people may actually give CCP some incentive to kill what they have going in favor of a few bucks. Are you people not happy with having 95% of the video game industry catering to your whimsical wants and needs ? Leave Eve for those of us that want this type of game, we know it's not for you and you hate it, we get it. Now head down to your local crapulant game store or Walmart and pick any game from the big wall of trash games, doesn't matter which game it is they are all the same and will occupy your brain for the same amount of time anyways.
Thanks for reading my mindless opinionated babble, I may be wrong but I doubt it.
good...you can shot and tackle
in eve that means its time for pvp!
havn't read all of these but might I suggest doing a little non-useful research on eve. By that I mean the backstory eve related story's and just some general stuff of interest.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/ - Chronicles good for a short read while ap'ing or mining.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/stories.asp - Short stories slightly longer (or like ruthless much longer)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline - If your into this sort of thing, the links to years down the bottom are worth a view (eg. YC 105)
Some videos:
and one final message
Into the breach meatbags
I just tried to get back into playing this game and was so bored. Just takes too long to develope your character.
and 25 years to max your char
BestSigEver :P
Thats part of the games charm. Leveling up a wow toon to max level in a month then hitting the cealing of the games content would suck.
In eve there is no max level and you are not limmeted to a certain set of gear by some class system. This means my eve toon is always evolving [looking foward to ruling a nice little plannet in highsec or low so i can be a true amarr lord
love it if i can export slaves too.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
You dont have to train any learning skills "before you can even do anything" Learning skills are just optional and they dont really make much difference in the beggining when skills take a few hours.
And, just in case your not aware: it takes ZERO effort to train skills, you just queue it up and leave it, you dont physically have to do anything, which means you can get on with doing anything else.
lol, posting this as a comment on an article which answers you directly is a bit dumb!
Incase you missed it: You dont NEED character progression in order to have just as much fun in Eve as someone who has played for years.
I've got a 5 year old character, but I have more fun playing my noobie, months old alt.
Yes, you are wrong. Lets see from a simple perspective. You say World of Warcraft and other games lose "soo much" people when you see something new. Yet, they are able to keep millions of fans who still play the game. They might lose up to 20% of players who might get back to the game later when there are a few events that can accelerate it, but they get most of it back. So most of the players who played for more than 1 month stays with the game.
Eve Online is different. In this case you don't even need a new game release to lose more than 80% of players. Who manages to keep more players when something new is released? other games.
Even niche products can have about 20% ratio of female players. Even games that are dedicated to soccer fans, etc. can have such numbers.
Your attacks (see your last few paragraphs) shows how arrogant assholes like you are responsible for low player retention rate, and it is your failure to understand that most players play a game they can play with friends. If Eve Online caters for selfish assholes who says "it is our game everyone else should go away" then a lot will go away and your game will be small, and soon the "influx of new players" to replace old ones will dry up, and your game will die. For a simple fact: majority of gamers who see an eve add will say: "I have already played this one". DAOC fans learned need for different players the hard way (when casual people, PVE fans, etc. moved to other games, guild fallen appart, PVP food chain seen fewer easy targets, fewer combats, fewer victories and it led to a deciline of playerbase.
Right now, it is likely that more people tried out eve online than most other MMORPGs, yet it doesn't have that many players, and while as amount of new "gamers" increase eve can grow for a bit of time (now) but the supply of new players will dry up for the game sooner or later.
While I try to help newbies, help with many projects often I need to do something else while eve runs, since eve is limited amount of fun and a lot of people I know share this problem, noone said you can't do stuff with friends, can't have fun, can't enjoy the game, I said in high sec past a 7 month barrier the game doesn't provide you more fun.
You say eve has a realistic economy Yeah, right. Without marketing, brands, product development cycles, to say a few things. Without products that try to ba a bit different to compete with each other. That is how you have a "realistic" economy. It also shows that corporations in eve doesn't compete in Research.
Feeding the masses (yes, people who live on stations, etc) is a maarket that doesn't exist in Eve Online.
Most of the income comes from loot from NPCs, bounties, mission rewards and not from actually industries. That is realistic economy and sandboxing for you.
Giving research, high sec "research outpost" a meaning and linking them to 0.0 warfare more (and also supplying the masses a source of income) wouldn't increase sandbox and freedom at all according to you, right?
Making security levels of systems (and rewards from agents) change based on how you "clean up pirates" from a system and making environment react and have dynamic missions enjoyable after 7th month would be "instant gratification".
When even CCP seen learning skill investment in the begining as an issue years ago, considering new player experience by making sure you need to learn a few other skills before learning skills to be able to enjoy the game would surely prevent you from training your titan skills, right?
(Also haad a typo, most of the piracy is in low sec)
Also CSM candidates are worried about risks vs rewards for entering low sec by players and how it hurts their perspectives (thanks to perma gatecamps at entrances to low sec) and their chances to find new goals and advancement...
And you say people experience "burnout" exactly when they reach where most goals in high sec become "unreasonable", regardless of how much time played, but it isn't related to game design but related to psychology.
You are a funny one
Check my home page for gaming related articles
Depends.
It takes 3 days to get past the tutorials and get to level 1 missions, which is intimidating for a few but it is good.
It takes a few days (a week or so) to be able to run level 2 missions, but in the meantime your character will feel improvement in several areas.
It takes a few weeks to be ready for safe level 3 missions in your BC, with proper skills and have enough learning skills and get some implants. It is fun.
It takes a few more weeks to be able to run level 4s...
And even at low end of this spectrum you can join fleets, read up on thigs, do some creative stuff.
But when it takes a few months of repetitive work to get standing for a jump clone, since with your implants, etc. you don't want to run into a perma gatecamp at entrance to low sec, and see you won't even try level 5 missions... That most high sec complexes aren't rewarding. That high sec mining wouldn't add much to the game... That these tasks are repetive...
That is when you run in the wall. This is the wall where most players "bounce off" and stop playing eve. Because at this time they see a real realy grind for standing to be able to use jump clones, long advancement to be able to enter low sec (thanks to gate camps) and industrialists, etc. already have most skills and the BPOs they love most.
To "demolish" this wall: Industry (including mining) should be able to compete with agent running, ratting, etc. in most systems in terms of rewards and income. The best would be ability to create items similar to faction and officer loot with unique stats based on research that would need materials tha must be mined (cannot be refined from other loot). Rare gems from refining. This would add several long term goals for industrialists, and some development cycle that wouldn't be instant (in fact it would be slow) that lets them to continue... of course for some items mining in low sec or nullsec would be required. (Say rare gems, and rare finds in asteroids would give you new reagents?)
Open "moon harvesting" for more players and companies.
I would add more complex "industry" related missions.
Dynamic agent missions.
More "risky" and more rewarding complexes everywhere.
Making gatecamps in low sec more and more difficult so let people go low sec space before they are ready to nullsec, and make this as a step (as planned) instead of a wall.
Things wouldn't be any faster, but would feel faster and better.
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I am one of those guys also that REALLY wanted to like EvE. I have over 1 year trained in EvE.
I trained up to AF's because I wanted to fly a Hawk. I also trained up to a Drake for mission running. I figured I could use my Frigate or Assault Frigates for PvP since they were cheaper to replace and use the Drake for PvE.
Problem is it's f****ing boring in this game to play alone. LIKE REALLLLLLLY BORING!
I join a corp in the beginning, who broke up not long after I joined. Then I spent about 4 months in a NPC Corp. Then I read about and joined EvE University. <--- Wasn't for me as I was 6 months in at this point and didn't need to figure out how to play, I was just kinda hoping they could show me where the fun was... didn't happen.
Spent another 3-4 months solo in an NPC corp.
Got a tell from someone in game recruiting for a new corp that would do everything in the game so to speak, mine, pvp low sec, and mission run. I said why not and joined. 1 week in I was the only guy logged into the corp most of the time. So that is about the time I quit EvE for the last time.
I feel as though I put a sufficent amount of time into this game. I feel as though I went down all the paths people told me would "make it better".
All I really needed to succeed was a very cool, ACTIVE corp who would let me roll with them to blow shit up, and unfortunately, after over a year of training, and doing everything everyone told me to do. That didn't happen.
Sigh.....
For you more sandbox = more wow.
It shows how much you know about eve and WoW.
You say: eve doesn't lose players.
Wrong.
Many people tries eve and we speak about millions of people.
Yet we don't have millions of players?
Why?
Because they left the game.
Even a 6 years old would understand that, but you aren't.
A game that can keep 80% of its players happy because it is fun to play, provides the fun we wanted from the game.
A game that can lose 80% of its players before they would ever see most of the "content" (0.0) fails to be fun on long term.
While traders don't leave stations they don't feed the masses (in an universe there are billions of invisible to you NPCs who live on stations, including agents, workers, etc) but feed other players. So feeding the masses is ignored.
Research and marketing is ignoreds.
While even better mission content would get repetive fast it would stay "fresh" for more time, if it stays fresh for 1 years, people will have more skills before they would find the game boring and would have more chances to reach goals outside of high sec.
No, it isn't linear, even my progression isn't linear. Eve is good because you have about endless meaningfull options for progression, but for industrialists most of it is vanished. And also: learning skill changes wouldn't affect you anyway, but would remove a problem where many people leave because everyone told them to learn learning skills and nothing happens. You would win something, and you would lose almost nothing (few hours worth of SP on new alts)
With granual change from 1.0 to 0.0 slowly most of high sec wouldn't be this safe, and some of the rewards could get reduced for high sec mission running. Say: Security levels can mean more random rats who might appear in middle of mission and running the mission in 0.5 would be more dangerous than a mission in 1.0 also: concord response times (and strenght of concord response) would change with every 0.001 of security level. Also insurance payouts can change with security level, etc.
Move out of high sec: too many gate camps at entrace to low sec, and my friends are in high sec mostly, and in 0.0 the terms we face aren't good for me. I know other corps have better terms, but I don't know people from them.
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No, I didn't get ganked, but when I seen "intel says I would get ganked" I decided even if I would want to give low sec a try, I left it. When we had a mining op there, we had to move out because pirates shown up, and our hard core pvper friends said it is wise to move out.
Paying a misssion runner with an industrialist doesn't work, since rewards from industry and rewards from mission running are on a different scale. When industry were valuable (a few years ago) it was different.
Eve is a sandbox PVP game. Even if you kill rats, you make your alliance stronger, and since it influences PVP you are a target. Even if you sit in a belt with your hulk to bring Veldspar to corp hangar and make ammo later, it keeps your PVP efforts financed and part of PVP.
In WoW there is a difference between PVE and PVP.
In Eve there isn't.
Everything you do is just different part of PVP.
If you don't even launch eve online client, but launch adobe premiere and make inspirational video for a powerblock and your enemies respond to that with a video of their own on youtube that is PVP.
THIS is why Eve is good, and THIS is why industralists, mission runners, mentors, etc. should be once again a valuable addition to corps of all sizes who try to settle in 0.0 and this is why all of these kinds of players should be welcome in 0.0 if they accept the risks. And lowsec should be a transition between high sec and nullsec, and not the "most dangerous part of game" where you don't have concord and you don't have a good defensive fleet and NBSI (because it would lose you sec status, make sentries angry).
And easy to fix gatecamps at entrace: If you stay in 100km range from a gaate you could have a 2 minutes "concord protection timer", leaving this area would mean losing protection. You would have piracy in low sec, but it would be deeper and not at the few entry gates. And it would allow you to enter (without a 2nd account to scout, etc) and decide if you want to stay... But of course the risks would stay.
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I yet to see 7 months trials, people who paid for 7 months are players, and when they leave en masse they are lost players.
Even complex (and niche) games tend to keep more players than eve... And eve loses players who came to eve because eve promised something unique and interesting yet they aren't happy with the results.
Probably more than 80% of people leave after 7 months... Sadly
It is in english. In an endless space there are endless amount of NPCs you don't see. They maintain systems on outposts, they live on planets, etc. If you would have to give them food and tools to keep your systems, economical warfare would offer far more challenges.
WH space can fresh for some more time, due to different AI, and games with strong storylines (where players can determine outcome) can keep PVE fresh with storylines. (Agents that would work for PC corps, storylines set up by big alliances, etc. would make the PVE fresh far longer)
The lower skill points start and accelerated training in begining can help players with a sense of progress they don't need instant stuff, maybe I would give them a "temporary bonus" to "learning skills" that diminish over time. Picking up learning skill while you have the bonus would be pointless.
Checked insurance changes, they don't work like this. Checked stuff in SiSi and as an Industrialist I am still not happy. Concord response is still fast enough to make high sec safe. I know that Level 4, quality 18 agent in Yarebap (a 0.5 system) gives better rewards than many high sec agents, since it is in 0.5 system. You know how many jumps I would need to make to reach low sec? And when was the last time when it gave a mission that sent me to low sec?
The same system has a level 2 agent for same corp. A neighboring system has a level 3 agent, the system on the other side has a storyline agent, they don't send anyone to low sec.
While complexes have extra NPCs with faction loot, lower sec systems doesn't make your missions riskier with more NPCs without faction loot. Too many faction loot in high sec space makes manufactured items worthless and they shouldn't be farmed that easily in high sec complexes.
Yes, I have checked WHs, and they would be a good thing, and sleeper AI can make PVE a bit fresh, but sadly they have two disadvantages: You can't take too many newbies with you, and most newbies would have a hard time in most WH space places. But it can be something fresh with a fast T2 ship.
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I will reply to this one: I think Eve would cater to more people than wow ever will if it would build on some of its potential. There are many fans of incredibly complex tycoon games, with some more stock market, better charts for market, etc. more love to industry, manufacturing, research Eve online would be able to target fans of complex tyooon games effectively.
With better focus in research (and customizaion) and a lot of chances to put up advertisements in game (with in game video editor maybe and in game video recording), it would an instant get option for many of the creative folks,
With linked games (like dust 514 will be) that can attract console / casual players who can be part of the same universe, the same sandbox, in eve you would be able to play with most of your friends.
With making training and recruiting more important, a lot of woman who love to do HR stuff would love Eve, and yes HR would be part of your wars.
Ambulation like stuff could help a bit...
If I would change on thing, I would make manual control for ships that gives you an "elite like" handling in addition to the current "command based" handling. Which would add more skill (and less jamming) to PVP and much much more fun for risker side of PVE. Of course I would add multiple member ship crew options, where new players can play "gunners" on your ship (maybe even if they have a console game that links with Eve). A small change, and I think it is in spirit of the eve...
Making "fun" challenges to manufacturing, and ability to recruit casual players to help with the tasks at the station, who could try eve as part of the community to make player retention rate higher. Yet they would help in sandbox PVP (Economical and industrial warfare) from day #1.
Should name a few more such stuff?
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Right now faction loot,
Faction ships,
Mission rewards,
Time bonus,
insurance,
Implants...
All come from NPCs, rats, agents, NPC corps selling stuff, etc.
The amount of value given out by NPCs should taken away from other people, so NPC corporations and NPC rats should have a neutral role in economy. Even skillbooks should vanish if some PC doesn't supply an industry with materials: Want good refinining in a high sec station? Well: you would have to build it up.
And corps in high sec should face an economic warfare even in high sec. They should try to fight for the newbies who help to make high sec refining possible... This is why I suggest NPC demand to even out the NPC supply.
You want to see faction ship offered at a station? Well, if not enough industry chars use that station to make it possible, it shouldn't happen.
You think it would make NPCs more important if they would need supplies, I would say it would make them less important. Decisions of players should have far higher effect even in high sec. You don't finance concord in a system and don't help to clean up pirates when you agents ask to? Too bad, concord will be too busy and understaffed and undergeared to respond.
Sense of progression, sense of success, having your own goals (you set tem in a sandbox) and reaching them is a major motive to play games.
You seem to ignored the key of my comment about yarebap: it is 0.5 but it isn't riskier than 1.0. And sadly industrialists don't get rewards.
Many newbies don't even have a cruiser yet
Edit: better explanation... If what we have as security level would be a "population" level, and would tell us its potential, but without supplies and activity it would be empty. No agents, no services, no concord, on insurance, no skillbooks, no LP store, etc.
Based on what would you do in the system their "ratings" would improve, even population specific stuff such as "NPC security". It would show up as sme guards as station, then some sentries at gates, etc... and build up to some concord presence. The population level would act as a "multiplier" so in a 0.5 system you would need 2 times as much effort for same npc services / security.
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I think I understand what you are saying and if I am understanding you correctly I do not disagree with any of it. Where I would disagree is with the approcah to solving a problem or adding in this type of content you are speaking of. The reason I disagree is because to me it seems more like a PvE centric approach where I support a more PvP centric approach which really is the way CCP has always tried to balance the game.
More stuff under control and manufacture of the players is a good thing but it is not something that can just be changed overnight, it would destroy the in game economy and probably the game itself in the process.
The way I see things right now is high sec is too lucritive for it's risk level as it is, it's too easy to make more than enough money you need for day to day play. Combine that with the fact that low is sec is in fact a more dangerous place than null sec and you got that barrier where new players feel like they are boxed in and their gaming options limited.
CCP really needs to improve the bounty hunter profession and systems in place, it really is one of the true broken parts of Eve that everyone ignores. Vast improvements here would actually give incentives to go hunt and kill pirates rather than just avoid them like we do now. Doing this would in turn allow more corps with a higher percentage of new players to enter the more dangerous parts of space to occupy and live there instead of treating it like running the gauntlet for a mission.