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Questions on Second Life and Project Entropia's financials
GTwander
Member UncommonPosts: 6,035
I've been doing research on the two because I really find their method of finances interesting. I can only get so much from wikipedia and the sites, and I tried to DL entropia but it just didn't want to work no matter how hard I tried (patcher error). I'm not going to play Second Life anytime soon because I still have a hard time seeing it as a game in any way, but I may have to eventually just in order to see what the deal is, and hopefully learn something from it. Both seem to be doing very well, respectively, and my questions involve both seperately. I'd appreciate the help of people who have experience with it firsthand.
~On Second Life
1. I hear that people make actual money in this game, but I'm totally in the dark to how it can happen. In a loose explaination from a guy in some game's forums i was led to believe that Players rent land on the mapface from the company and are able to sublet it to others for their own requested amount. Is this the most well-seen method, or is there really a way to earn through crafts or construction of some type? I don't really understand what you can even *do* in this game, let alone a way to see how any of it has earning potential. Any examples of crafts or services that people can subsist off of would be helpful.
2. I know there is a currency in the game, but does it have a true changeover rate to real money? Or is it at the mercy of player-pricing because sales of it are exclusively on the side or something? That against the EULA at all? Trying to figure out how the exhange of in-game currency between players could make that jump.
3. Does the economy get fed money in any 'natural' way, or does it only enter if a player converts real money to in-game currency?
~On Project Entropia
1. Does this game have character progression, stats/skill/etc? Could not get a good read on any of it.
2. it seems that it's possible to earn money without putting any in through the 'sweating' thing and various resource trades, but is it really possible to work your way up from that to a profitable base? Again it seems that landowning is really the only way to go, and what is the typical pricing model on that per parcel (or whatever form of measurement)? I could see SL's but not PE's.
3. The way the game works reminds me of a very strange 'virtual bank'. It's been related to a 'casino' but the only place I see that is in how money can be bought at a fixed exchange rate - which therefore gives legitimacy to consider the virtual funds as actual credit - but the fact the game *produces* in-game currency on top of this kind of puts my head in a fog. Is that technically legal, as the company can create funds in this way? Or is there some accounting involved on the actual income vs the supply of funds in-game? Unless money exits the system in some way, it's all just building up - so is there a mechanism for that?
4. What is the PvP situation like - do you have to pay for your equipment? If so, does that stifle a lot of the active PvP? Also, is there loss of any kind through looting?
i'm sure I could have a lot more questions to ask, but it's not coming to me. Prolly should have written it all down beforehand. Thanks for any info in advance.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Comments
I recommend wearing the six foot penis complete with swinging nads. Take a walk around town. Everyone should experience that at least once.
Why isn't SL a game? You want quest givers? NPCs standing around with '!' over their heads? It has quest givers but not many. Usually the quests involve some kind of scavenger hunt. One quest I did donated money to the United Way charity.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Second Life
You can sub-let land, but no one really does. The real way to make money is to create virtual assets to sell to other players, either models or textures. The most profitable side of the market is fashion and sex toys, in fact anything related to the adult industry is a pretty good way to make money in Second Life, even renting yourself out as an escort.
There is an exchange rate between the virtual and real currencies, you'd have to check the site to see what it currently is though.
Only way to get money in the game is through real money, because it isn't really a game, it is a virtual world and works on the same principles as the real world.
Project Entropia / Planet Calypso
Yes, it is a proper game with character progression.
The only way to earn money is to spend money. Essentially those making money have purchased resources in the game world that other players need, and those players have to pay the owner for the use of them.
The best description is a pyramid scheme, the only way to go up in the game world is to spend money on it, the wise spend a lot of money up front on buying resources that other players can't do without, therefore they are guaranteed an return on their investment as long as the game is popular. You then get people are various levels of progression / ownership paying those above them, up to the person at the top of the pyramid, which I assume at this moment is the guy who owns the space station and it being the sole source of a particular resource means he has a monopoly.
Not sure about the PvP, but to progress to any real degree in the game you have to spend money on it. What most don't realise is that you can end up paying a lot of money for a very average game, its definitely not up to the standards of most subscription MMOs as far as gameplay goes.
Whilst the business models are interesting, they aren't something you should get tied up in unless you seriously want to invest a lot of time or money in becoming one of the big players.
If people think micro transactions are bad in free to play games, they really should try these out for a comparison, these two games just make me sick when I think about how they soak up money from people.
And the companies take a cut of all transactions, not to mention the initial purchases of land must come from them too.
A game denotes having an "activity based on competition or challenges". All i have seen so far is a virtual chat room with customizable aesthetics. if they added a sports-like activity, or even a chess set two users can play simultaneously, then I will take back what i said.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Well I can only give my first hand experiences with Second Life. I started SL back in 2005 and since then I have played it a bit on and off between playing other games such and eve-online and wow. I have created all sorts of things in the game, and over those 5 years of playing I have managed to make probably 1.5 thousand dollars though selling of my creations and builds. Not a whole lot but a reasonable amount to pay for my subscription fees for the other mmos I play.
I also do not play full time at all, basically spent a bit of time building, but the items for sale, and then go do other things while I make a little money. The only time I have to pay anything is for rent so that I can operate a store in world. I also can sell though the xstreet marketplace online.
Of course some people have to be putting money into the game by buying currency, but I just look at it like exchanging money from one world to another. Kinda like traveling to a different country with the plus that you don't need a passport of deal with airport security. Also should say that $1 last I looked was about 270 lindens. It varies of course depending on who is buying and what others are trying to get.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I suggest you try them for yourself if you don't like other people's explanations of them.
In SL, there's this location called Tombstone. It's a western theme MMO ran by SL players.
I would check that out.
Also the Star Trek and Elf area.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I asked you what the loss aspect of PvP was - not whether you enjoyed PvP or not.
Also notice I never asked if any of these games are good, I know it just leads to flames, and all I care about is this info.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
1. Secondlife is what you make of it. If you just want to socialize, dance etc, it’s that. If you want to game like an mmorpg, it’s that. It’s a sandbox, you create the system through scripts, like PvP combat scripts or dance floor scripts. It’s the same as if you grab a regular game engine and programmed/scripted it all in yourself. Most newbies only see the social side of it then quit, but when you learn how to search and connect with gaming groups, well it’s there and healthy. However, it’s not the instant gratification type of games, requires role play in most cases, mixed in with what ever scripted systems that group may offer. So if you dress like Conan and then jump into a formula one racing event, peeps will laugh at you before you get ejected
But for making money… not really a reason to start imo. If you have actual skills, you may make more money other places, like developing games since you have the skills. But if you are a skilled artist or programmer/scripter, you could make some money while having fun, for a side gig. If no skill, but you have lots (and I mean lots) of money laying around, yes you could buy a sim and rent land/shops. But if you don’t know what you are doing, just slap down yet another junk sim (there are many of those), you will loose lots of money, $1000’s(usd). Lots of ways to make money though (with little/no skill), like from buying/selling real-estate to prostitution (heh meh).
2-3. Acts like most any bank/financial system, values fluctuate with exchange rates. But it’s usually around L$250 to $1(USD). It’s a little devalued atm, so you will get more for your buck. I guess if volume is low, the L$ devalues. The only funds that are generated by the system is the weekly L$250 allowance that subscribers receive, but then they are just getting a little back from what they pay into the system for their land perks.
For Secondlife, I mainly use SPD and/with TSS, but there are other scripted PvP systems depending on your group. There is no looting as far as I have seen, not in PvP. You could probably make drop scripts for PvE, like with the popular zombies. Most groups have all you need to start PvP; all their freebie gear, including the required scripts.
I don’t play Entropia, can’t upload art (models/textures/animations/sounds).
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
And beyond what I said already, but more specific to this challenge:
http://tinyempires.com/
Though I don't play, but many do.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Quite a bit. I was in a battle with 50 people last week at an event. We loaded our ships with ground combatants and landed them onto enemy British territory for the invasion. While we fought the British armada by sea, the troops engaged the defending British fort. I don't have any pics of the event, but here is a glamour pic of my regulation scripted Brig (all my own texturing):
Of course not the ony PvP/RP style going on. I also like SLracing. Try youtube (Second Life Racing)
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Holy s**t, I'm starting to think i got this game all wrong.
So it's basically the Newgrounds of MMOs? I'm gonna have to check the damn thing out now.
Though, it does seem to me that most players are hard-pressed to actually find a way to do it. Otherwise I think everyone would be on board. Is stuff like that generally hard to find?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
One thing you must understand about Second Life is that it is not a 'game' in any sense of the word. It is merely a platform/engine. Linden Lab does not create any content, combat, quests, or story for use by users. There are users who create games...including MMOs...inside of the Second Life platform, but they are 100% created and run by those users, not Linden Lab.
Back when I started in SL, it was a tiny community, and many of us were game developers, artists, and scripters who used the platform to flesh out ideas we intended to use elsewhere. Things have changed drastically over the years in so many ways. And it's changed even more profoundly in the last 2 years I feel than ever before.
I have been a user of SL since 2004 (shortly after it started) and a content creator since 2005. At one time I quit my job working for an MMO development company to work full time in Second Life because I could make more money and follow my own artist vision. Those days are gone, at least for me. A number of factors in the last 2 years have made it increasingly easy for people with limited skill to make money in SL by stealing other people's work and re-selling it, or importing work from other sources like professional games and Poser, that it has become increasingly hard to make a profit for those of us who create our own work from scratch.
However, that said, Second Life is as others have said, what you make of it. It is barely more limited than Real Life in how many ways you can make money. Live musicians market themselves, DJs stream into clubs, clothing designers, skin makers, hair stylists, weapons and vehicle design, services, prostitution (yes, this is sadly rather large), and about anything else you can imagine.
Marketing yourself, your service or your product is easy. Making any money is harder. There are a limited number of top content creators who are truly making a living off SL, and it isn't easy getting to that spot, so don't count on it unless you are already a professional in your chosen field.
If you can handle the walking blue penises, the zillion and one rip offs of popular culture, and the sex traders, however, Second Life does offer a wealth of interesting places to explore and things to do. But like Real Life, it takes some effort to find the things that appeal to you. This width and variety is what scares most people away from SL after their first hour in world. Too much like real life.
Yeah, the copybots are a serious turn-off. I only cater to a smaller RP community for fun, not for making a living. You can find most anything for free now too, so you need to find what is needed, the niche in the market. At least copybots cant copy scripts, so if you make like vehicles of some sort, or pets, whatever, you’re pretty safe. I mainly make avatars, but only because I make PC’s/NPC’s for another game project. In sl, mainly just for fun.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Well there are 1.5 million people logging in each month, and 1000’s and 1000’s of sims, so you just gotta search for what interests you.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
So there's an issue of people redistributing assets from other people?
Do they have to retrieve a sample and copy it, or can they just use rip textures by looking at you or somethin?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I don't know how it works, its a bot script that can copy textures. There are countermeasures/security bots, and LL is sniffing out these bots and banning people that use them. Also they just did a crackdown on 3rd party viewers to curve this threat.
If you start, download Snowglobe or something. Viewer 2 is new and junk. SL offers Snowblobe on the same download pagi I think. Beyond understanding the viewer, SL will take time to click for you (what the draw is), beyond the starange stuff we see as newbies.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
There are multiple means to steal other people's textures and models, etc. I won't go into how, as I refuse to make it any easier than it is. But like anywhere else in real life, using these methods is a violation of copyright laws, and many of the designers in Second Life will and do prosecute, myself included. But, as the music, movie and game industry knows, its a losing battle. Pirates don't care if I lose my house because they steal the art I spent six months developing and sell it for half the price. *sigh*
Yeah, it can be a lot worse in this case, they are not stealing from a big AAA game development company and their investors that can suck it up, they are stealing form individual people. It's like breaking into your neighbors home and looting all their jewelry.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I disagree. SL is a game. When I was little, I played with Legos, erector set, and lincoln logs. All of these are toys and building something with them is a game.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
They have a built in basic PvP system, so it's a game. Well... most use better, but it's there. I know a lot of sl residents that protest "it's not a game!", but technically it is, or has it in there somewhere even though they may not access it.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
My wife swears by SL. I never got into it-kinda like playing with paper dolls-not allot to do ingame.
Furry dance addict?
They don’t pack big guns that splatter flesh
...though I have a furry outfit, but it's a werewolf, meant for biting not dancing
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.