I could take off my nostalgia goggles more easily if modern games didn't feel like:
Games are what you make them. If you feel like you are riding a child's bike, then you are playing the game like you are riding a child's bike.
I can play my 53 Loremaster in LOTRO and spend time on the lvl 60 areas. Takes all I've got to survive and I have a great time.
Or...
I can stand around and gank newbies in DFO and "maybe" think that is fun, but the question is: Which one of those two is the "child's bike"? DFO.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but you need to understand that, for the most part, it's the player who determines how the game plays out.
*WRONG.*
Games are played based on a direct reaction of the playerbase with implemented design mechanics. If a game is designed to be a tricycle, you will never be able to turn it into a crotch rocket because that is what you want to make it into.
We are a product of our environment amongst other things, but inside gaming, we are pawns primarily. Yes, there is wiggle room, but you can't squeeze water from a stone. There's only so much you can alter before you start hugging limiting parameters.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I don't think it is the "game" that was necessarily better. It was that it was new. . so a better experience - and the player base was failry different.
Take Ultima IV. . this was my favourite game forever (not an MMO) I played it recently on the PC and man. . it was not nearly as epic feeling etc.
Lets look at UO. . awesome game. I played it the longest I have played any MMO since. . . .It had a feeling of exploration etc. Sites like stratics etc. came out and eventually you could look up anything you wanted and a lot of the mystery was lost. Fast foward to WoW with questhelper - instant access to quests etc. . . and the dreaded experience bar and you get a different experience.
The nostagia I have is for a time when you could not look things up. . you had to explore etc. Now someone will say that I can still play that way. . and that is true . . except 99.9% of the others in the game do not. . and that is where the community in game has changed. You used to ask someone where a dungeon was and they would show you. . you might get in a fight on the way and then exchange ICQ #s after a bit etc. Now if you ask a question of someone you get "google it you lazy SOB" This has lead developers to make games more geared toward that audience.
Until they invent some new technology where a game is completely dynamic and immersive. . those days are over.
I could take off my nostalgia goggles more easily if modern games didn't feel like:
Games are what you make them. If you feel like you are riding a child's bike, then you are playing the game like you are riding a child's bike.
I can play my 53 Loremaster in LOTRO and spend time on the lvl 60 areas. Takes all I've got to survive and I have a great time.
Or...
I can stand around and gank newbies in DFO and "maybe" think that is fun, but the question is: Which one of those two is the "child's bike"? DFO.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but you need to understand that, for the most part, it's the player who determines how the game plays out.
*WRONG.*
Games are played based on a direct reaction of the playerbase with implemented design mechanics. If a game is designed to be a tricycle, you will never be able to turn it into a crotch rocket because that is what you want to make it into.
We are a product of our environment amongst other things, but inside gaming, we are pawns primarily. Yes, there is wiggle room, but you can't squeeze water from a stone. There's only so much you can alter before you start hugging limiting parameters.
This is very true. . in my post above I kind of get there. You can make it what you want on an individual level. . but you will be alone. . which is not the point of an MMO. .. So. . . ultimately you can't make it what you want. The community has driven the games to be created for the lowest common denominator. . they know others will play out of a lack of options. . and the masses will never play a more complex game- so less funding and people willing to try it.
but that doesn't mean we haven't come a long way from the good old days.
I don't know. I still play XCOM, XCOM 3, Diablo II, Starcraft, and Master of Magic. I've been thinking of dusting off Jagged Alliance. My son has been playing Panzer General. Those games are STILL better than anything I've seen today.
I can't go back and play the old MMOs, because they aren't there, but I'm not sure we have "come a long ways."
but that doesn't mean we haven't come a long way from the good old days.
I don't know. I still play XCOM, XCOM 3, Diablo II, Starcraft, and Master of Magic. I've been thinking of dusting off Jagged Alliance. My son has been playing Panzer General. Those games are STILL better than anything I've seen today.
I can't go back and play the old MMOs, because they aren't there, but I'm not sure we have "come a long ways."
As a gamer since 4 yrs old I've played and completed a lot of games and by far comparing to today and the old days I can safely say that older games had more replay value , more content (not being nickel and dimed for content that was already finished DLC), being able to mod and expand , attention to detail and story, more variety and options.
Todays games with little or no replay value after being played thru one or two times, too much emphasis on flashy graphics, nickel and dimed for content, zilch on diffculty or challenge, no variety , next to none on customization .
I play more classic games than I do new and I have DOSBox installed plus multiple emulators to play classic console or pc games, X-Com Series, Syndicate Wars, Ultima Series, Kings Quest, Police Quest, Darkseed 1-2, Aliens A Comic Book Adventure, X-Wing and Tie Fighter Games, Wasteland, Fallout Series, Star Trek Games, Command And Conquer, and tons of more games that I play more than current generation of games.
If games of any genre even MMOs keep taking this route of milking their customers of money and cash shops in MMOs with subs , I got about 30yrs of classic games to play to keep me busy for the rest of my life.
but that doesn't mean we haven't come a long way from the good old days.
I don't know. I still play XCOM, XCOM 3, Diablo II, Starcraft, and Master of Magic. I've been thinking of dusting off Jagged Alliance. My son has been playing Panzer General. Those games are STILL better than anything I've seen today.
I can't go back and play the old MMOs, because they aren't there, but I'm not sure we have "come a long ways."
As a gamer since 4 yrs old I've played and completed a lot of games and by far comparing to today and the old days I can safely say that older games had more replay value , more content (not being nickel and dimed for content that was already finished DLC), being able to mod and expand , attention to detail and story, more variety and options.
Tell that to nes games that only take 45 minutes to beat, with teh only thing stopping yuo from doing that is teh fact there harer than needed.
People love to whine about gaming today, but the facts are its just fine, take off the rose glasses.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
We've all heard about the ''good times''. Asherons Call 1, Everquest, Ultima Online and Dark age of Camelot. But what if you just came out of your mothers womb 10 years ago? Without the nostalgia goggles.
I have been playing MMOs for 12 years, I am more than capable of picking out good gameplay from bad gameplay. If I were just blinded by nostalgia, then I wouldn't have quit DAoC. As soon as it became all about the loot, and the social aspect died, I left, as did many others. Sure, I still remember the noob moments, like the first time finding out mobs can agro you, and being terrified of dying. Or my first time grouping with other people. Or my first time in RvR. But those noob moments passed, and after playing the game for 6 years, I can remember the good AND the bad, and still feel it's a much more solid game than just about all the modern MMOs.
Games are what you make them. If you feel like you are riding a child's bike, then you are playing the game like you are riding a child's bike.
I can play my 53 Loremaster in LOTRO and spend time on the lvl 60 areas. Takes all I've got to survive and I have a great time.
Or...
I can stand around and gank newbies in DFO and "maybe" think that is fun, but the question is: Which one of those two is the "child's bike"? DFO.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but you need to understand that, for the most part, it's the player who determines how the game plays out.
I disagree. It only makes sense to play a game the way it feels meant to be played. To get out of it what it offers. Some of who I am, and how I take things is going to come into play, but for the most part, I do my best to level up, if the game is a levelgrind, and I gank newbies, if that's what the game rewards - or quit, because I don't enjoy what the game rewards. I don't think I lack imagination, I think that's just how gaming is. You don't play chess, and pretend it's checkers. Or maybe you do, but IMHO, that's kinda lame
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I could take off my nostalgia goggles more easily if modern games didn't feel like:
Games are what you make them. If you feel like you are riding a child's bike, then you are playing the game like you are riding a child's bike.
I can play my 53 Loremaster in LOTRO and spend time on the lvl 60 areas. Takes all I've got to survive and I have a great time.
Or...
I can stand around and gank newbies in DFO and "maybe" think that is fun, but the question is: Which one of those two is the "child's bike"? DFO.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but you need to understand that, for the most part, it's the player who determines how the game plays out.
*WRONG.*
Games are played based on a direct reaction of the playerbase with implemented design mechanics. If a game is designed to be a tricycle, you will never be able to turn it into a crotch rocket because that is what you want to make it into.
We are a product of our environment amongst other things, but inside gaming, we are pawns primarily. Yes, there is wiggle room, but you can't squeeze water from a stone. There's only so much you can alter before you start hugging limiting parameters.
Don't you mean "if a game is designed to be what I perceive as being a tricycle"? Whether or not a game is child's play is purely subjective so your "opinion" means shit to everyone but you. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. I know that's seems to be the trendy thing to do here on MMORPG.com, but it still comes off as laughable.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
Of course nostalgia exists for things past but there are countless threads in which people have described specific reasons why they preferred some older game, whether it be more emphasis on grouping, a greater sense of risk, better community, a feeling of immersion or whatever.
The whole nostalgia argument seems rather weak and lazy to me. It's just a cheap way of devaluing an opinion with which you happen to disagree.
Games are what you make them. If you feel like you are riding a child's bike, then you are playing the game like you are riding a child's bike.
*WRONG.*
Games are played based on a direct reaction of the playerbase with implemented design mechanics. If a game is designed to be a tricycle, you will never be able to turn it into a crotch rocket because that is what you want to make it into.
We are a product of our environment amongst other things, but inside gaming, we are pawns primarily. Yes, there is wiggle room, but you can't squeeze water from a stone. There's only so much you can alter before you start hugging limiting parameters.
Don't you mean "if a game is designed to be what I perceive as being a tricycle"? Whether or not a game is child's play is purely subjective so your "opinion" means shit to everyone but you. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. I know that's seems to be the trendy thing to do here on MMORPG.com, but it still comes off as laughable.
Aha. A wordsmith I see. Fun!
The answer is still 'WRONG'. I am limited in what I do based on the implications of the mechanics and the imposed focus of devs. If the devs want a populace to exist in a certain place, taking part in a certain activity, they will design a system that entices and rewards said activity in said location. Through positive reinforcement of reward, that is where the populace will be.
But I'm a lone wolf. I enjoy hanging out at lower levels with my friends chasing squirrels around barnhouses. But sadly, eventually my friends decide to level up and go off to see what all the fuss is about. Now, all the sudden I'm forced to change my gameplay because of mechanics and focuses external to myself and that of the initial groups' when we first started out.
This example quickly shows how populace influences my preferred method of gaming- whatever that method may be. More examples could be drafted for other extrinsic or intrinsic factors such as combat design or exploration options. Either I stick with my 'preferred method of gaming', or I conform to the 'devs preferred method of gaming' or something along its periphery. Considering the former is in effect dead via changes implemented, I get to etiher enjoy the latter or nothing at all!
Hell, even finding out what I want to 'make into a game' inside of a game, is limited by the game itself, and can only be realized as a reaction to the game's inherent design. Devs build a box, you play inside of it.
The case you present regarding wiggle-room is a particular case. Mine is the general case. There is no 'opinion' here, other than yours. And the only 'trend' worth noting is the 'laughable' attempt at degrading another poster by arguing ambigious points and calling 'first!' to the expression 'coming off as laughable'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Some people claim that all this downtime allowed people to be social, but that assumes that the people around you are worth being social with. In most games, they're not, at least IMO.
I can understand why, with this outlook, you may not have had a good social experience in EQ. But many of us did.
Yes, some of us might actually have some standards.
While the nostalgia argument may have some merit, it is still fundamentally flawed. It's nothing more than an attempt to invalidate people's personal opinions and taste on game mechanics based purely on claiming that because their experiences are old they are somehow irrelevent.
As much as some try to use the above argument, it still completely neglects the fact that there are many oldschool gamers that fire up oldschool games. I for example still dig out my copy of X-Com, Fallout, Balder's Gate, etc, and have another enjoyable playthrough, moreso than most newest games simply because their gameplay is superior.
MMOs however, you can't quite do this, because the nature of MMOs causes them to evolve over time because they are very content driven, which requires a lot of content changes. That's why many of us bring up "the good old days" about past MMOs don't go back and play them, because they're very different games from when we used to play them.
As per newer gamers not enjoying older games, that's because they've been conditioned. They are exposed to games with more flash and less substance, and therefore they tend to prefer those types of games. That's not necessarily wrong or bad, that's just how much fo the gaming culture has shifted.
Justin Webb posted a very relevent article relating to this topic:
Of course nostalgia exists for things past but there are countless threads in which people have described specific reasons why they preferred some older game, whether it be more emphasis on grouping, a greater sense of risk, better community, a feeling of immersion or whatever.
The whole nostalgia argument seems rather weak and lazy to me. It's just a cheap way of devaluing an opinion with which you happen to disagree.
At best, people can say "I like it that way", which is fine, but nobody ever can explain specifically why it is objectively better than any other style of play. It doesn't stop them from proclaiming "this is what MMOs are all about" though, even though they can never back up their claims.
The fact is, MMOs have moved on. Whether or not everyone agrees they've gotten better, they most certainly have gotten much larger, much better funded, much more expansive and much more financially successful. The idea that any tiny mniority of players who are still very much living in the past ought to have a significant say in the direction the MMO marketplace takes is absurd. It's like saying people who like Model T's ought to get to design everyone else's cars.
Some people claim that all this downtime allowed people to be social, but that assumes that the people around you are worth being social with. In most games, they're not, at least IMO.
I can understand why, with this outlook, you may not have had a good social experience in EQ. But many of us did.
Yes, some of us might actually have some standards.
Please, kind sir, admit to the irony in this sentence.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Of course nostalgia exists for things past but there are countless threads in which people have described specific reasons why they preferred some older game, whether it be more emphasis on grouping, a greater sense of risk, better community, a feeling of immersion or whatever.
The whole nostalgia argument seems rather weak and lazy to me. It's just a cheap way of devaluing an opinion with which you happen to disagree.
At best, people can say "I like it that way", which is fine, but nobody ever can explain specifically why it is objectively better than any other style of play. It doesn't stop them from proclaiming "this is what MMOs are all about" though, even though they can never back up their claims.
The fact is, MMOs have moved on. Whether or not everyone agrees they've gotten better, they most certainly have gotten much larger, much better funded, much more expansive and much more financially successful. The idea that any tiny mniority of players who are still very much living in the past ought to have a significant say in the direction the MMO marketplace takes is absurd. It's like saying people who like Model T's ought to get to design everyone else's cars.
Consumers have the right to voice their wants and if companies determine that it is indeed only a minority that want certain aspects and they have a better oppertunity elsewhere they will take it. If however the market is flooded with competition in regards to what the majority want it may be smart for companies to cator for the minority in which case the minority being vocal will be their greatest starting asset.
You are right guys everything about old MMO’s was just awful.
Just a second guys, I am getting on my new MMO bicycle:
Scot climbs on his new bicycle, puts on his pink and white fluffy cycling helm, cartoon themed elbow and knee pads, looks back to make sure his stabilisers are on otherwise he might fall off! Then with a grin worthy of a Stepford dad he rides of into the sunrise pressing his bell so everyone knows not to bump into him (tring! tring!).
You are right guys everything about old MMO’s was just awful.
Just a second guys, I am getting on my new MMO bicycle:
Scot climbs on his new bicycle, puts on his pink and white fluffy cycling helm, cartoon themed elbow and knee pads, looks back to make sure his stabilisers are on otherwise he might fall off! Then with a grin worthy of a Stepford dad he rides of into the sunrise pressing his bell (tring! tring!).
Yeah it was all just so awful.
But I'm loving these new "round tires". And no more dragging around that tractor tire behind me.
Reminds of back in the day when FFVII first came out. You had the old-schoolers who would have nothing to do with anything past FFVI, and the new-schoolers who got their start with FFVII, and neither could convince the other. I was pretty solidly old-school in that case, but even I have to admit that the older games certainly weren't all roses. Still many fond memories, though.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs: That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Consumers have the right to voice their wants and if companies determine that it is indeed only a minority that want certain aspects and they have a better oppertunity elsewhere they will take it. If however the market is flooded with competition in regards to what the majority want it may be smart for companies to cator for the minority in which case the minority being vocal will be their greatest starting asset.
There's a big difference between voicing your desires and demanding that companies provide them whether they are financially viable or not. I have lots of desires in MMOs, I am just rational enough to recognize that I do not represent a large enough block of the MMO marketplace to warrant any company actually making the game I want to play. I accept that because I am realistic. It doesn't stop me from wanting it, but it certainly does stop me from starting endless threads whining about how I'm not getting what I want.
People dismiss it as purely nostalgia but frigging we've pointed out what is wrong with modern MMOs....
First off, you've pointed out your opinion about modern MMOs, that doesn't mean there is anything actually wrong with them, only that you, as an individual, don't care for them. Your opinion is noted. Secondly, it's clear that you represent a tiny minority of the overall MMO marketplace, someone who is part of an infinitessimally small group that is unhappy with the direction MMOs went. Also noted. However, you have to be realistic and acknowledge that no MMO developer in their right mind is going to cater to a group so financially irrelevant as the old school gamer. You had your shot. You lost. At least admit defeat gracefully. It's the mature thing to do.
At best, people can say "I like it that way", which is fine, but nobody ever can explain specifically why it is objectively better than any other style of play. It doesn't stop them from proclaiming "this is what MMOs are all about" though, even though they can never back up their claims. The fact is, MMOs have moved on. Whether or not everyone agrees they've gotten better, they most certainly have gotten much larger, much better funded, much more expansive and much more financially successful. The idea that any tiny mniority of players who are still very much living in the past ought to have a significant say in the direction the MMO marketplace takes is absurd. It's like saying people who like Model T's ought to get to design everyone else's cars.
Consumers have the right to voice their wants and if companies determine that it is indeed only a minority that want certain aspects and they have a better oppertunity elsewhere they will take it. If however the market is flooded with competition in regards to what the majority want it may be smart for companies to cator for the minority in which case the minority being vocal will be their greatest starting asset.
I think you missd part of his message. People that look back and want that back always tend to look at it with rose-colored glasses, but when comes down to it, they can never point out (and usualy never do) what was better about the old experiences/games that isn't done if not better today.
You talk about the majority like the MMORPG forums speaks for a majority when in fact they lie in the minority you speak of. The majority of MMO players today wouldn't know what UO or EQ was like because they all started with WoW. Any form of nostalgia to these majorities will be in the likeliniess of Vanilla or Burning Crusade WoW.
I'm sorry I'm going to have to side with Cephus on this one, the MMO industry is progressing whether you like what it is or not and I think you'll be missnig out on many more opportunities in the future if you're just going to sulk about where the industry is at and/or going.
If you cannot accept the ever-changing nature of MMO's, then perhaps the genre isn't for you since time has told, these games change hence why most nostalgic people aren't in fact going back to play those MMO's in the first place. These people are the ones at a loss here and unfortunately it appears to be a minority when looknig at the grand scheme of the industry these days.
Comments
*WRONG.*
Games are played based on a direct reaction of the playerbase with implemented design mechanics. If a game is designed to be a tricycle, you will never be able to turn it into a crotch rocket because that is what you want to make it into.
We are a product of our environment amongst other things, but inside gaming, we are pawns primarily. Yes, there is wiggle room, but you can't squeeze water from a stone. There's only so much you can alter before you start hugging limiting parameters.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
I don't think it is the "game" that was necessarily better. It was that it was new. . so a better experience - and the player base was failry different.
Take Ultima IV. . this was my favourite game forever (not an MMO) I played it recently on the PC and man. . it was not nearly as epic feeling etc.
Lets look at UO. . awesome game. I played it the longest I have played any MMO since. . . .It had a feeling of exploration etc. Sites like stratics etc. came out and eventually you could look up anything you wanted and a lot of the mystery was lost. Fast foward to WoW with questhelper - instant access to quests etc. . . and the dreaded experience bar and you get a different experience.
The nostagia I have is for a time when you could not look things up. . you had to explore etc. Now someone will say that I can still play that way. . and that is true . . except 99.9% of the others in the game do not. . and that is where the community in game has changed. You used to ask someone where a dungeon was and they would show you. . you might get in a fight on the way and then exchange ICQ #s after a bit etc. Now if you ask a question of someone you get "google it you lazy SOB" This has lead developers to make games more geared toward that audience.
Until they invent some new technology where a game is completely dynamic and immersive. . those days are over.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
This is very true. . in my post above I kind of get there. You can make it what you want on an individual level. . but you will be alone. . which is not the point of an MMO. .. So. . . ultimately you can't make it what you want. The community has driven the games to be created for the lowest common denominator. . they know others will play out of a lack of options. . and the masses will never play a more complex game- so less funding and people willing to try it.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
I don't know. I still play XCOM, XCOM 3, Diablo II, Starcraft, and Master of Magic. I've been thinking of dusting off Jagged Alliance. My son has been playing Panzer General. Those games are STILL better than anything I've seen today.
I can't go back and play the old MMOs, because they aren't there, but I'm not sure we have "come a long ways."
As a gamer since 4 yrs old I've played and completed a lot of games and by far comparing to today and the old days I can safely say that older games had more replay value , more content (not being nickel and dimed for content that was already finished DLC), being able to mod and expand , attention to detail and story, more variety and options.
Todays games with little or no replay value after being played thru one or two times, too much emphasis on flashy graphics, nickel and dimed for content, zilch on diffculty or challenge, no variety , next to none on customization .
I play more classic games than I do new and I have DOSBox installed plus multiple emulators to play classic console or pc games, X-Com Series, Syndicate Wars, Ultima Series, Kings Quest, Police Quest, Darkseed 1-2, Aliens A Comic Book Adventure, X-Wing and Tie Fighter Games, Wasteland, Fallout Series, Star Trek Games, Command And Conquer, and tons of more games that I play more than current generation of games.
If games of any genre even MMOs keep taking this route of milking their customers of money and cash shops in MMOs with subs , I got about 30yrs of classic games to play to keep me busy for the rest of my life.
Tell that to nes games that only take 45 minutes to beat, with teh only thing stopping yuo from doing that is teh fact there harer than needed.
People love to whine about gaming today, but the facts are its just fine, take off the rose glasses.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Actually that would be your opinion that todays games are fine. If everyone agreed with your opinion we wouldn't be having these discussions.
I have been playing MMOs for 12 years, I am more than capable of picking out good gameplay from bad gameplay. If I were just blinded by nostalgia, then I wouldn't have quit DAoC. As soon as it became all about the loot, and the social aspect died, I left, as did many others. Sure, I still remember the noob moments, like the first time finding out mobs can agro you, and being terrified of dying. Or my first time grouping with other people. Or my first time in RvR. But those noob moments passed, and after playing the game for 6 years, I can remember the good AND the bad, and still feel it's a much more solid game than just about all the modern MMOs.
I disagree. It only makes sense to play a game the way it feels meant to be played. To get out of it what it offers. Some of who I am, and how I take things is going to come into play, but for the most part, I do my best to level up, if the game is a levelgrind, and I gank newbies, if that's what the game rewards - or quit, because I don't enjoy what the game rewards. I don't think I lack imagination, I think that's just how gaming is. You don't play chess, and pretend it's checkers. Or maybe you do, but IMHO, that's kinda lame
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
EQ Nostalgia
Awakened Nostalgia - Everquest Relived Article Ten Ton Hammer
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Don't you mean "if a game is designed to be what I perceive as being a tricycle"? Whether or not a game is child's play is purely subjective so your "opinion" means shit to everyone but you. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. I know that's seems to be the trendy thing to do here on MMORPG.com, but it still comes off as laughable.
Of course nostalgia exists for things past but there are countless threads in which people have described specific reasons why they preferred some older game, whether it be more emphasis on grouping, a greater sense of risk, better community, a feeling of immersion or whatever.
The whole nostalgia argument seems rather weak and lazy to me. It's just a cheap way of devaluing an opinion with which you happen to disagree.
Aha. A wordsmith I see. Fun!
The answer is still 'WRONG'. I am limited in what I do based on the implications of the mechanics and the imposed focus of devs. If the devs want a populace to exist in a certain place, taking part in a certain activity, they will design a system that entices and rewards said activity in said location. Through positive reinforcement of reward, that is where the populace will be.
But I'm a lone wolf. I enjoy hanging out at lower levels with my friends chasing squirrels around barnhouses. But sadly, eventually my friends decide to level up and go off to see what all the fuss is about. Now, all the sudden I'm forced to change my gameplay because of mechanics and focuses external to myself and that of the initial groups' when we first started out.
This example quickly shows how populace influences my preferred method of gaming- whatever that method may be. More examples could be drafted for other extrinsic or intrinsic factors such as combat design or exploration options. Either I stick with my 'preferred method of gaming', or I conform to the 'devs preferred method of gaming' or something along its periphery. Considering the former is in effect dead via changes implemented, I get to etiher enjoy the latter or nothing at all!
Hell, even finding out what I want to 'make into a game' inside of a game, is limited by the game itself, and can only be realized as a reaction to the game's inherent design. Devs build a box, you play inside of it.
The case you present regarding wiggle-room is a particular case. Mine is the general case. There is no 'opinion' here, other than yours. And the only 'trend' worth noting is the 'laughable' attempt at degrading another poster by arguing ambigious points and calling 'first!' to the expression 'coming off as laughable'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Yes, some of us might actually have some standards.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Quoted for excellence.
At best, people can say "I like it that way", which is fine, but nobody ever can explain specifically why it is objectively better than any other style of play. It doesn't stop them from proclaiming "this is what MMOs are all about" though, even though they can never back up their claims.
The fact is, MMOs have moved on. Whether or not everyone agrees they've gotten better, they most certainly have gotten much larger, much better funded, much more expansive and much more financially successful. The idea that any tiny mniority of players who are still very much living in the past ought to have a significant say in the direction the MMO marketplace takes is absurd. It's like saying people who like Model T's ought to get to design everyone else's cars.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Please, kind sir, admit to the irony in this sentence.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Consumers have the right to voice their wants and if companies determine that it is indeed only a minority that want certain aspects and they have a better oppertunity elsewhere they will take it. If however the market is flooded with competition in regards to what the majority want it may be smart for companies to cator for the minority in which case the minority being vocal will be their greatest starting asset.
You are right guys everything about old MMO’s was just awful.
Just a second guys, I am getting on my new MMO bicycle:
Scot climbs on his new bicycle, puts on his pink and white fluffy cycling helm, cartoon themed elbow and knee pads, looks back to make sure his stabilisers are on otherwise he might fall off! Then with a grin worthy of a Stepford dad he rides of into the sunrise pressing his bell so everyone knows not to bump into him (tring! tring!).
Yeah it was all just so awful.
But I'm loving these new "round tires". And no more dragging around that tractor tire behind me.
Reminds of back in the day when FFVII first came out. You had the old-schoolers who would have nothing to do with anything past FFVI, and the new-schoolers who got their start with FFVII, and neither could convince the other. I was pretty solidly old-school in that case, but even I have to admit that the older games certainly weren't all roses. Still many fond memories, though.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
People dismiss it as purely nostalgia but frigging we've pointed out what is wrong with modern MMOs....
You've pointed out what you think is wrong with new mmos.
There's a big difference between voicing your desires and demanding that companies provide them whether they are financially viable or not. I have lots of desires in MMOs, I am just rational enough to recognize that I do not represent a large enough block of the MMO marketplace to warrant any company actually making the game I want to play. I accept that because I am realistic. It doesn't stop me from wanting it, but it certainly does stop me from starting endless threads whining about how I'm not getting what I want.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
First off, you've pointed out your opinion about modern MMOs, that doesn't mean there is anything actually wrong with them, only that you, as an individual, don't care for them. Your opinion is noted. Secondly, it's clear that you represent a tiny minority of the overall MMO marketplace, someone who is part of an infinitessimally small group that is unhappy with the direction MMOs went. Also noted. However, you have to be realistic and acknowledge that no MMO developer in their right mind is going to cater to a group so financially irrelevant as the old school gamer. You had your shot. You lost. At least admit defeat gracefully. It's the mature thing to do.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think you missd part of his message. People that look back and want that back always tend to look at it with rose-colored glasses, but when comes down to it, they can never point out (and usualy never do) what was better about the old experiences/games that isn't done if not better today.
You talk about the majority like the MMORPG forums speaks for a majority when in fact they lie in the minority you speak of. The majority of MMO players today wouldn't know what UO or EQ was like because they all started with WoW. Any form of nostalgia to these majorities will be in the likeliniess of Vanilla or Burning Crusade WoW.
I'm sorry I'm going to have to side with Cephus on this one, the MMO industry is progressing whether you like what it is or not and I think you'll be missnig out on many more opportunities in the future if you're just going to sulk about where the industry is at and/or going.
If you cannot accept the ever-changing nature of MMO's, then perhaps the genre isn't for you since time has told, these games change hence why most nostalgic people aren't in fact going back to play those MMO's in the first place. These people are the ones at a loss here and unfortunately it appears to be a minority when looknig at the grand scheme of the industry these days.