well i can say this ffxi had the best community in the fact that wow players didnt play it because they couldnt hack the long grouping sessions and the hardcore pve so really i never came across one single ninja in my entire ffxi career and i played the game for 3 years straight. Now with them making the game easier and more accessible with ffxiv i have no faith in pugging because the wow crowd and the ninja crowd will be there.
I've never believed in NBG on tradeable items. It was especially bad in EQ where there were hardly any cleric or caster item drops. The melee had ton more drops than casters. Why would a caster or cleric come if melee are going to loot whore everything? Let everyone roll. That is the fairest way.
As far as no drop, it should be obvious. As far as contested items, like in raids, a guild would have a proper system setup before entering.
For any pick up group i prefer ffa on looting since how can you determine the need of some random person. That being said as long as the the loot rules are agreed to prior to starting and as new members join it is a non-issue.
For any pick up group i prefer ffa on looting since how can you determine the need of some random person. That being said as long as the the loot rules are agreed to prior to starting and as new members join it is a non-issue.
That's why the random person determines the need for himself.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It's really not hard to be fair to everyone during loot distribution.
I'd almost take this as a personal insult... After leading several different endgame linkshells and seeing how a lot others work, I can say that there's no way in hell that you could be fair to everyone during loot distribution. At least not in a non-PUG situation.
I was talking about PUG situations, not friends / LS members.
What if the Archer has been in the LS a year longer than the Conjurer? What if the drop rate is about 1% for the item meaning you wouldn't see it again for maybe 3, even 6 months? What if the Conjurer has already gotten 4 drops during his time in the LS and Archer has in the same timeframe only obtained one or no drops? What if the Archer is the leader of the LS?
This is all situational and I couldn't tell you what I would do until X situation presented itself in the game. All I can say is that the guild I run does not have anyone in it who cares enough about loot to make any of the above scenarios a big deal.
And this is important: What if the Archer is only Archer because the leader asked him to come as an Archer and not Conjurer even though he wanted to? What if the situation is vice-versa for the Conjurer, but he would also like to get the drop?
I can make more examples on the fly... and you can make "solutions" on the fly... and soon we'll have a -50 DEEKAYPEE system with 10 pages of rules to read.
That may be for a large LS. But the guild I run is pretty tight knit and respectful of each other. In the 8 years we've been gaming together there has never been a situation that wasn't resolved quickly and kindly.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I prefer need before greed and using common courtesy when deciding what to roll on.
What sucks is when game drops become so valuable or hard to obtain that people feel the desire to roll on them even when the need is small.
If the game was designed properly (IMO) crafted gear would trump all (like it used to in early DAOC) and there wouldn't be nearly the infighting over drops that more modern MMO's suffer from.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FFXI isn't a fair comparison when you talk about NBG as you generally don't do events that drop loot with pick up groups. Depending on what system your linkshell/guild used, drops were dictated by either points, main class, or by leadership. Sure once in a blue moon items were ninja lotted, but it really didn't occur that often and could easily be prevented by an alliance leader on his toes.
FFXIV i have a feeling will be more NBG intensive as i see more people will be doing pick up groups for things that will drop loot. I can see it being more complicated with the way classes are set up but nothing that can't be overcome by discussing drops beforehand. It also depends on what system or control SE gives us as alliance or group leaders. Of course it won't be fool proof and you wont eliminate ninja looters fully, but maybe it'll open up the crazy notion of getting to know people.
It's really not hard to be fair to everyone during loot distribution.
I was talking about PUG situations, not friends / LS members.
And I was talking about "other examples you will use with your linkshell / friends". Most content will be done like that anyway, most likely
This is all situational and I couldn't tell you what I would do until X situation presented itself in the game. All I can say is that the guild I run does not have anyone in it who cares enough about loot to make any of the above scenarios a big deal.
The point is, these situations make up the whole scene. I dare you find a time and place without none of these situations present. Or for the other situations I will tell you if you happen to find one.
That may be for a large LS. But the guild I run is pretty tight knit and respectful of each other. In the 8 years we've been gaming together there has never been a situation that wasn't resolved quickly and kindly.
Small or large, doesn't matter. Even if you play with your friends (like me in my last endgame LS), and however tight knit your group may be (everyone in mine had known each other for 3-4 years), even if I could make it fair 90% of the time with the million "situational" situations messing things up, it wasn't "not that hard".
Sure is easy when you don't have to wait for one piece to drop 6 months... no matter how good friends you might be, if you can't handle a situation where such item drops fairly, it will be a huge shitstorm, and not just because of greed either. 6 months is quite long time to wait just because "oh it was situational occurence, I didn't plan anything for when that happens.. better luck next time though!"
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I think due to the complexity of FF's class systems, Need Before Greed needs to go out the door. A new system would need to be in place with a greater emphasis on other parts of the game such as player economy.
An example of something that could potentially work without having to account for classes would be if everyone was awared with a completely random item of the same/similar strength. It may or may not match their needs but then everyone in the group could either ask and try trading their items or it could be sold on something like an auction house where money spent would be used to purchase items of equal level/strength from said auction house. More likely than not, many people will have to sell on auction houses in hopes of keeping prices at reasonable levels.
Again this is one of many potential solutions but I think the main idea is clear, the loot system cannot depend/revolve around its class system since it has so much flexibility and too many nuances to work around.
I think due to the complexity of FF's class systems, Need Before Greed needs to go out the door. A new system would need to be in place with a greater emphasis on other parts of the game such as player economy.
An example of something that could potentially work without having to account for classes would be if everyone was awared with a completely random item of the same/similar strength. It may or may not match their needs but then everyone in the group could either ask and try trading their items or it could be sold on something like an auction house where money spent would be used to purchase items of equal level/strength from said auction house. More likely than not, many people will have to sell on auction houses in hopes of keeping prices at reasonable levels.
Again this is one of many potential solutions but I think the main idea is clear, the loot system cannot depend/revolve around its class system since it has so much flexibility and too many nuances to work around.
I think they'll just let the players handle it and have pretty similar loot distribution as in XI.
It's not the perfect system, but I don't think it's even possible to have one..
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
For any pick up group i prefer ffa on looting since how can you determine the need of some random person. That being said as long as the the loot rules are agreed to prior to starting and as new members join it is a non-issue.
In a decent community you can trust people for the most part.
It's really not hard to be fair to everyone during loot distribution. In my opinion in FFXIV the main discipline should always get priority.
Of course, there will always be "those" people, but they can usually be avoided.
No one really knows how loot drops are going to work in FFXIV but I came up with an example to my approach to the Discipline system FFXIV will be using.
Lets say a really great staff drops.
Example 1:
There's someone who's currently playing a Conjurer in the group. They could use the staff. They roll need.
There's also an Archer in the group who has a higher level Conjurer than the person currently playing the Conjurer in the group, they could also use the staff. They roll greed since they are not currently playing that discipline.
Everyone else rolls greed as well. (No one else has a Conjurer that could use the staff.)
(Note: Example 1 would be what I would use in all PUG situations, below are some other examples that I plan on using with my Linkshell / friends groups)
Example 2:
The Conjurer already has a better staff. They roll greed.
The Archer can now roll need since they also have a Conjurer that can use the staff.
Everyone else rolls greed because they can't use it.
Example 3:
The Conjurer already has a better staff. They roll greed.
The Archer does not need the staff either. They roll greed.
Everyone else rolls greed as well.
I think these 3 examples pretty much cover every situation that can come up in a group and I think it's the fairest system.
I absolutely hate when someone rolls need on something that they can not use right away or at all, UNLESS no one else needs it.
Edit: I realize that switching Disciplines in FFXIV will be a lot easier than switching jobs in FFXI was, but my original opinion still stands. If the person can't use it RIGHT THEN and someone else can, the person who can use it should get it.
Anything else is just being greedy.
i am going to believe that ffxiv will not have world drops. im willing to make a bet on this.
here is an example to see how you would handle the situation.
john has guildleve a of poopoo: dirk has guild leve c of poopoo: billy has guildleve f of poopoo: sara has guildleve b of poopoo. you all decide to go do them at the same time. just as you finish a giant nm spawns! OMG! by doing those guildleve at the same time youve unlocked a special nm. you guys beat it, and it drops 2 staffs for a conjuruer and a thaumaturge. everyone pretty much came on the jobs they felt were neccasary, but these staffs can be worn as early as lvl 5. who gets to roll?
in this case i would say everyone who wants it. it would probably be rare/ex neways. were all doing alot of speculation about drops and everything, but the system in ffxi worked perfectly imo. if they bring that over then there is no need to worry.
world drops are the only time that need and greed are needed. not putting that in the game elimantes that problem. if were doing endgame stuff and said staff drops, obviously that guy that cant use it for 20 more lvls cant roll. am i going to say no to the guy that normally plays thaum, but i asked him to come glad for this event? im sure not. am i going to say no to the guy that has been raiding on pugilist, but said that hes only interested in conjurer equipment for his conurer? no im not.
The problem with this discussion is that the game mechanics of FFXI made NB4G impractical.
In recent games decent loot drops happen every few minutes which means even with a NB4G system there's a good chance that everyone will obtain at least something of use to them. In FFXI good loot is much much rarer, to the point that often a party will only get their hands on a single item of value from a night's play session (if that)... that's where things start to get a bit more complicated since unless everyone gets a shot at the item half the party may have just wasted their evening.
Also the whole deal with only being allowed to roll an item usable by your current job isn't that simple either. There were many situations in FFXI where players were expected to use one job to obtain an item for another. Although it wasn't necessary, things like the carbuncle mitts NM and the assault missions for automaton attachments were generally expected of players to have been done before they began levelling the applicable job.
Then you also have the situation of a party requesting a player come on one job that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen. If you're playing by NB4G rules then how is it fair to restrict that player to only drops for the job they were forced to bring to the party?
I expect FFXIV will have the same complications to the typical NB4G loot system. It also has the potential to have an even bigger issue though.
Considering that you can customise your class, equipped skills, and stats however you wish, most players are going to have very distinct builds that rely on more than just their primary class. The actual equipment that players want will be different from build to build. Some of the skills they're using will be affected by stats belonging primarily to classes other than their main, at which point equipment that is not specifically for their class may be very useful to them. For example a gladiator with a variety of healing skills equipped from his conjuror, he's a tank class, but he now has a collection of healing skills so he might want to roll on healer loot to improve himself in those areas... At this point NB4G simply cannot exist because everyone would have a legitimate claim to 'needing' the item...
To put it simply, everyone has access to every class in FFXIV with extreme ease, to the point that any item has the potential to be useful to any player regardless of what class they are currently set to. Just because their equipped weapon makes them one class, it doesn't mean that their build won't favour gear choices outside the norm for that class. NB4G just won't work there...
Having said that I expect FFXIV will simplify matters a little since I believe the guild leves can reward equipment. This way everyone is always guaranteed to come away with something for their time spent.
Even if everyone can use everything it is still possible for need before greed to be applicable if you already have one of what dropped, or if you have something better. The point of nbg is not necessarily what you would use right now in this party, but whether you would actually use it on this character. That is, not for alts and not for sale.
Even in games where switching class is not an option, sometimes tanks roll on dps items. They may not use it right this minute, but as long as they will use it Im ok with it.
To me in regards to need before greed, my worries would start when someone that has won something already is allowed to roll on other things later on despite the lack of reward the rest of the group has received. This is where I think the limits should be placed because if left at just need before greed...people will have millions of ways of justifying why they are able to "need" it due to the flexibility amongst the classes and skills/abilities available to everyone. That's why a need before greed system shouldn't be applied due to this flexibility. Too many nuances to work around, there should be a simpler system in place outside of need before greed that focuses on something else rather than classes/disciplines/skills/what have you.
To me in regards to need before greed, my worries would start when someone that has won something already is allowed to roll on other things later on despite the lack of reward the rest of the group has received. This is where I think the limits should be placed because if left at just need before greed...people will have millions of ways of justifying why they are able to "need" it due to the flexibility amongst the classes and skills/abilities available to everyone. That's why a need before greed system shouldn't be applied due to this flexibility. Too many nuances to work around, there should be a simpler system in place outside of need before greed that focuses on something else rather than classes/disciplines/skills/what have you.
The leader will stop that kind of thing from happening, if he's not a total idiot.
Some things you can just let the people handle, no need for the devs to interfere.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Thank you everyone for bringing up some great points and keeping the thread on topic. If nothing else, I think we have already learned that there's not much agreement at this point and it would be a great idea to discuss loot distribution with your party as soon as it starts.
I brainstormed a bit today and came up with the main three reasons why I'm not a fan of Need Before Greed (as you could probably tell from the tone of my first post). These reasons are fairly game-independent. I'll share some FFXIV-specific thoughts at the end.
Any system that relies on honor/trust benefits the people who break it. There are people who will get more items than they deserve because they're willing to cheat the system. This includes people who lie about what items they need so that they can win them and sell them. This also includes people who play by the rules until something extremely valuable turns up, then blatantly ninja it without giving any excuse or apology. There is also the rare case where someone will "accidently" roll on untradeable things that they were not supposed to. Over time, the people who do not respect the rule of law are the ones who profit the most. Blacklisting can only go so far in attempting to punish people who do this, especially those who do it subtly rather than blatantly.
Even if everyone abides by it, it is not a fair method of distribution. Needy equals Greedy. Over the long run, the less effort you put into maintaining a good set of equipment, the more loot will flow to you. Players who spend most of their money on buying gear or buying materials to craft their own equipment will seldom be able to legitimately roll on items unless it's a Greed roll. Other players who spend their money on noncombat pursuits — chocobo breeding, raising tradeskills for profit, etc. — or who just don't bother to put any effort into raising money for gear, they get to claim Need much more often. That's really not fair; it's punishment to those who are showing up to the party most prepared. When there's a financial advantage to showing up to a party with bad equipment and you don't call that option "Greed", there's a problem.
A desire to have no competition on Needs can influence the party makeup. This is a petty concern compared to the other two, but still a little bit of an issue. If I'm the only one who uses a bow or wears plate armor, I'm going to be happier when those things drop; that's a guaranteed win instead of 50%. In Aion, there were times when I'd get turned down as a Spiritmaster because the party already had a Sorc: "It wouldn't be fair if an orb dropped and he had to share the roll, sorry." I consider it a little more fun if people can form a party based on their teammates' capabilities without having the Specter of Need Competition hanging over their heads.
Now, for FFXIV we have an additional issue, that being the class-changing. More to the point, the class-changing isn't a problem; the consensus is the problem. In a more conventional game, particularly a long-running game like WoW, there's little question over what builds exist and what items are appropriate for them. The usefulness of one piece of equipment over another is plain as day. Its built-in NBG system can even tell which players need the item that dropped (though this is not a 100% flawless algorithm). Our knowledge of FFXIV "builds" — if they will ever exist at all — is a long long way off. A lack of understanding of the extent of someone's need for a weapon or piece of armor will make it easier for people to make off with extra gear by way of Reason 1: claiming things they do not truthfully have a great need for. But more importantly, it opens up a whole new can of worms. Players will disagree (and in some cases, greatly disagree) on what you can get away with demanding exclusive rights to. NBG is already an unfair split even when everyone goes along with it and even when everyone agrees on what Need is. Without a rock-solid consensus, it's a nuclear bomb waiting to go off.
The problem with this discussion is that the game mechanics of FFXI made NB4G impractical.
In recent games decent loot drops happen every few minutes which means even with a NB4G system there's a good chance that everyone will obtain at least something of use to them. In FFXI good loot is much much rarer, to the point that often a party will only get their hands on a single item of value from a night's play session (if that)... that's where things start to get a bit more complicated since unless everyone gets a shot at the item half the party may have just wasted their evening.
Also the whole deal with only being allowed to roll an item usable by your current job isn't that simple either. There were many situations in FFXI where players were expected to use one job to obtain an item for another. Although it wasn't necessary, things like the carbuncle mitts NM and the assault missions for automaton attachments were generally expected of players to have been done before they began levelling the applicable job.
Then you also have the situation of a party requesting a player come on one job that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen. If you're playing by NB4G rules then how is it fair to restrict that player to only drops for the job they were forced to bring to the party?
I expect FFXIV will have the same complications to the typical NB4G loot system. It also has the potential to have an even bigger issue though.
Considering that you can customise your class, equipped skills, and stats however you wish, most players are going to have very distinct builds that rely on more than just their primary class. The actual equipment that players want will be different from build to build. Some of the skills they're using will be affected by stats belonging primarily to classes other than their main, at which point equipment that is not specifically for their class may be very useful to them. For example a gladiator with a variety of healing skills equipped from his conjuror, he's a tank class, but he now has a collection of healing skills so he might want to roll on healer loot to improve himself in those areas... At this point NB4G simply cannot exist because everyone would have a legitimate claim to 'needing' the item..
To put it simply, everyone has access to every class in FFXIV with extreme ease, to the point that any item has the potential to be useful to any player regardless of what class they are currently set to. Just because their equipped weapon makes them one class, it doesn't mean that their build won't favour gear choices outside the norm for that class. NB4G just won't work there...
Having said that I expect FFXIV will simplify matters a little since I believe the guild leves can reward equipment. This way everyone is always guaranteed to come away with something for their time spent.
you said it pretty well.
im pretty confused now about the weapon system lol. this is an article i found:
Actions: This area allows you to place the class abilities into your action bar. According to Famitsu, the status (i.e. growth) is split into two parts – “rank” and “physical level.” Rank is associated with the weapon used – so as you gain more experience with a particular weapon, your “rank” with that weapon class increases. As that rank increases, you will learn additional abilities. Notably, once learned, these abilities remain with the character. In other words, skills learned while a Pugilist, may be used while you are a Conjurer. There will be certain restrictions on this, however, and not all abilities will be usable by any class, and there are penalties (strength of the effect and/or time limits) when using an “out-of-class” ability. This leads to a very customizable character development.
so will there be no multi class weapons? will new weapons have restrictions based on rank or physical lvl? im not in alpha and its so much thats still hidden from us. i would like to know more so i can come to a better conclusion about need before greed. in the event that its based on rank or physical lvl, i can see some restrictions being put into place on who gets what. i still dont think need before greed will be a problem, but awaiting more info.
I will always go along with whatever the PUG decides they want to do.
Having said that, "Need before Greed" is a very antiquated concept and if I make a PUG, I will always make it FFA. "Need before Greed" may have made sense in EQ1 when there were no auction houses or AFK player bazaars/shops but it does not make sense anymore.
If a Mage and a Swordsman are in a PUG together and a Rare Sword drops, yes the swordsman can equip it immediately... but the Mage can easily put it in the AH, shop, etc and get enough money to buy his own Rare Staff. So how exactly is it that it is considered Need for the Swordsman but Greed for the Mage? The end goal is exactly the same- a better weapon. Why is the Mage considered greedy because he may have to wait a day or two to get his Rare Item? It makes no sense.
It shouldn't be called "Need before Greed", it should be called "Instant Greed before Delayed Greed". Both players benefit equally from the item, just one doesn't benefit as immediately as the other.
Like I said, it may have made sense in EQ1 where the mage wouldn't be able to sell it for what its worth without sitting in a zone and shouting out that he has it for sale for a few hours, hoping a buyer will come along. The other alternative in EQ was to sell it to an NPC vendor for a price well below its worth. In that case, that really would be a greedy thing to do- to sell it at a way reduced price instead of letting the class that can use it, enjoy it. I feel this is where the concept got started.
However, EQ is an old game (although I loved it ten years ago). In today's MMO world with Auction Houses or AFK shops, you dogenerally get what the item is worth (what defines worth more than supply and demand?) and are basically trading it (via currency) for something you can use of equal value. Oh and if you would rather sell three of those rare items to get a super rare staff or cloak, I still don't see how its being greedy.
Now, I will agree with previous posters that an exception would be a No Sell/No Trade item. In those situations, I am all for "Need before Greed" because the AH argument doesn't apply. In addition, the fact that in FFXIV you are not only able to change classes but are arguably encouraged to do it (due to the sub-ability system), means nobody should be upset with a Mage who wants a Rare Sword because he may "need" it to, just not immediately. I also agree with others that it won't even be a big deal in this game due to the system likely being similar to FFXI.
just so im not flammed... i did NOT read all the posts here. there r just too many lengthy posts so if my ideas have already been stated then i apologize.
Personally i don't see a need for loot to openly annouced to all the party members. I'd prefer to have an option to silently drop to random participants and leave it to them to decide if they would like to advertise the drop. the option for others to roll could be left to whomever it randomly drops to. i've never argued the results of a random drop or crappy roll. this would be just as random and spare me and others some level of arguing.
Comments
well i can say this ffxi had the best community in the fact that wow players didnt play it because they couldnt hack the long grouping sessions and the hardcore pve so really i never came across one single ninja in my entire ffxi career and i played the game for 3 years straight. Now with them making the game easier and more accessible with ffxiv i have no faith in pugging because the wow crowd and the ninja crowd will be there.
I've never believed in NBG on tradeable items. It was especially bad in EQ where there were hardly any cleric or caster item drops. The melee had ton more drops than casters. Why would a caster or cleric come if melee are going to loot whore everything? Let everyone roll. That is the fairest way.
As far as no drop, it should be obvious. As far as contested items, like in raids, a guild would have a proper system setup before entering.
i have to agree with this one , let the Auction house sort out the problems.
For any pick up group i prefer ffa on looting since how can you determine the need of some random person. That being said as long as the the loot rules are agreed to prior to starting and as new members join it is a non-issue.
That's why the random person determines the need for himself.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I prefer need before greed and using common courtesy when deciding what to roll on.
What sucks is when game drops become so valuable or hard to obtain that people feel the desire to roll on them even when the need is small.
If the game was designed properly (IMO) crafted gear would trump all (like it used to in early DAOC) and there wouldn't be nearly the infighting over drops that more modern MMO's suffer from.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FFXI isn't a fair comparison when you talk about NBG as you generally don't do events that drop loot with pick up groups. Depending on what system your linkshell/guild used, drops were dictated by either points, main class, or by leadership. Sure once in a blue moon items were ninja lotted, but it really didn't occur that often and could easily be prevented by an alliance leader on his toes.
FFXIV i have a feeling will be more NBG intensive as i see more people will be doing pick up groups for things that will drop loot. I can see it being more complicated with the way classes are set up but nothing that can't be overcome by discussing drops beforehand. It also depends on what system or control SE gives us as alliance or group leaders. Of course it won't be fool proof and you wont eliminate ninja looters fully, but maybe it'll open up the crazy notion of getting to know people.
I think due to the complexity of FF's class systems, Need Before Greed needs to go out the door. A new system would need to be in place with a greater emphasis on other parts of the game such as player economy.
An example of something that could potentially work without having to account for classes would be if everyone was awared with a completely random item of the same/similar strength. It may or may not match their needs but then everyone in the group could either ask and try trading their items or it could be sold on something like an auction house where money spent would be used to purchase items of equal level/strength from said auction house. More likely than not, many people will have to sell on auction houses in hopes of keeping prices at reasonable levels.
Again this is one of many potential solutions but I think the main idea is clear, the loot system cannot depend/revolve around its class system since it has so much flexibility and too many nuances to work around.
I think they'll just let the players handle it and have pretty similar loot distribution as in XI.
It's not the perfect system, but I don't think it's even possible to have one..
In a decent community you can trust people for the most part.
i am going to believe that ffxiv will not have world drops. im willing to make a bet on this.
here is an example to see how you would handle the situation.
john has guildleve a of poopoo: dirk has guild leve c of poopoo: billy has guildleve f of poopoo: sara has guildleve b of poopoo. you all decide to go do them at the same time. just as you finish a giant nm spawns! OMG! by doing those guildleve at the same time youve unlocked a special nm. you guys beat it, and it drops 2 staffs for a conjuruer and a thaumaturge. everyone pretty much came on the jobs they felt were neccasary, but these staffs can be worn as early as lvl 5. who gets to roll?
in this case i would say everyone who wants it. it would probably be rare/ex neways. were all doing alot of speculation about drops and everything, but the system in ffxi worked perfectly imo. if they bring that over then there is no need to worry.
world drops are the only time that need and greed are needed. not putting that in the game elimantes that problem. if were doing endgame stuff and said staff drops, obviously that guy that cant use it for 20 more lvls cant roll. am i going to say no to the guy that normally plays thaum, but i asked him to come glad for this event? im sure not. am i going to say no to the guy that has been raiding on pugilist, but said that hes only interested in conjurer equipment for his conurer? no im not.
The problem with this discussion is that the game mechanics of FFXI made NB4G impractical.
In recent games decent loot drops happen every few minutes which means even with a NB4G system there's a good chance that everyone will obtain at least something of use to them. In FFXI good loot is much much rarer, to the point that often a party will only get their hands on a single item of value from a night's play session (if that)... that's where things start to get a bit more complicated since unless everyone gets a shot at the item half the party may have just wasted their evening.
Also the whole deal with only being allowed to roll an item usable by your current job isn't that simple either. There were many situations in FFXI where players were expected to use one job to obtain an item for another. Although it wasn't necessary, things like the carbuncle mitts NM and the assault missions for automaton attachments were generally expected of players to have been done before they began levelling the applicable job.
Then you also have the situation of a party requesting a player come on one job that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen. If you're playing by NB4G rules then how is it fair to restrict that player to only drops for the job they were forced to bring to the party?
I expect FFXIV will have the same complications to the typical NB4G loot system. It also has the potential to have an even bigger issue though.
Considering that you can customise your class, equipped skills, and stats however you wish, most players are going to have very distinct builds that rely on more than just their primary class. The actual equipment that players want will be different from build to build. Some of the skills they're using will be affected by stats belonging primarily to classes other than their main, at which point equipment that is not specifically for their class may be very useful to them. For example a gladiator with a variety of healing skills equipped from his conjuror, he's a tank class, but he now has a collection of healing skills so he might want to roll on healer loot to improve himself in those areas... At this point NB4G simply cannot exist because everyone would have a legitimate claim to 'needing' the item...
To put it simply, everyone has access to every class in FFXIV with extreme ease, to the point that any item has the potential to be useful to any player regardless of what class they are currently set to. Just because their equipped weapon makes them one class, it doesn't mean that their build won't favour gear choices outside the norm for that class. NB4G just won't work there...
Having said that I expect FFXIV will simplify matters a little since I believe the guild leves can reward equipment. This way everyone is always guaranteed to come away with something for their time spent.
Even if everyone can use everything it is still possible for need before greed to be applicable if you already have one of what dropped, or if you have something better. The point of nbg is not necessarily what you would use right now in this party, but whether you would actually use it on this character. That is, not for alts and not for sale.
Even in games where switching class is not an option, sometimes tanks roll on dps items. They may not use it right this minute, but as long as they will use it Im ok with it.
To me in regards to need before greed, my worries would start when someone that has won something already is allowed to roll on other things later on despite the lack of reward the rest of the group has received. This is where I think the limits should be placed because if left at just need before greed...people will have millions of ways of justifying why they are able to "need" it due to the flexibility amongst the classes and skills/abilities available to everyone. That's why a need before greed system shouldn't be applied due to this flexibility. Too many nuances to work around, there should be a simpler system in place outside of need before greed that focuses on something else rather than classes/disciplines/skills/what have you.
The leader will stop that kind of thing from happening, if he's not a total idiot.
Some things you can just let the people handle, no need for the devs to interfere.
All equipment should be made by crafters.
Some of the Crafter items to create equipment should drop (expect the ones you can gather with the disciples of the land) .
People that hunt monsters get crafter items, they sell it to crafters, crafters make equipment from it and sell it to the people who need it.
Quest items should only be dropped for people who have the quest.
Let item drop cycle through the party equal.
If one member really thinks he or she needs an item then let players solve it themselfs.
Thank you everyone for bringing up some great points and keeping the thread on topic. If nothing else, I think we have already learned that there's not much agreement at this point and it would be a great idea to discuss loot distribution with your party as soon as it starts.
I brainstormed a bit today and came up with the main three reasons why I'm not a fan of Need Before Greed (as you could probably tell from the tone of my first post). These reasons are fairly game-independent. I'll share some FFXIV-specific thoughts at the end.
Any system that relies on honor/trust benefits the people who break it. There are people who will get more items than they deserve because they're willing to cheat the system. This includes people who lie about what items they need so that they can win them and sell them. This also includes people who play by the rules until something extremely valuable turns up, then blatantly ninja it without giving any excuse or apology. There is also the rare case where someone will "accidently" roll on untradeable things that they were not supposed to. Over time, the people who do not respect the rule of law are the ones who profit the most. Blacklisting can only go so far in attempting to punish people who do this, especially those who do it subtly rather than blatantly.
Even if everyone abides by it, it is not a fair method of distribution. Needy equals Greedy. Over the long run, the less effort you put into maintaining a good set of equipment, the more loot will flow to you. Players who spend most of their money on buying gear or buying materials to craft their own equipment will seldom be able to legitimately roll on items unless it's a Greed roll. Other players who spend their money on noncombat pursuits — chocobo breeding, raising tradeskills for profit, etc. — or who just don't bother to put any effort into raising money for gear, they get to claim Need much more often. That's really not fair; it's punishment to those who are showing up to the party most prepared. When there's a financial advantage to showing up to a party with bad equipment and you don't call that option "Greed", there's a problem.
A desire to have no competition on Needs can influence the party makeup. This is a petty concern compared to the other two, but still a little bit of an issue. If I'm the only one who uses a bow or wears plate armor, I'm going to be happier when those things drop; that's a guaranteed win instead of 50%. In Aion, there were times when I'd get turned down as a Spiritmaster because the party already had a Sorc: "It wouldn't be fair if an orb dropped and he had to share the roll, sorry." I consider it a little more fun if people can form a party based on their teammates' capabilities without having the Specter of Need Competition hanging over their heads.
Now, for FFXIV we have an additional issue, that being the class-changing. More to the point, the class-changing isn't a problem; the consensus is the problem. In a more conventional game, particularly a long-running game like WoW, there's little question over what builds exist and what items are appropriate for them. The usefulness of one piece of equipment over another is plain as day. Its built-in NBG system can even tell which players need the item that dropped (though this is not a 100% flawless algorithm). Our knowledge of FFXIV "builds" — if they will ever exist at all — is a long long way off. A lack of understanding of the extent of someone's need for a weapon or piece of armor will make it easier for people to make off with extra gear by way of Reason 1: claiming things they do not truthfully have a great need for. But more importantly, it opens up a whole new can of worms. Players will disagree (and in some cases, greatly disagree) on what you can get away with demanding exclusive rights to. NBG is already an unfair split even when everyone goes along with it and even when everyone agrees on what Need is. Without a rock-solid consensus, it's a nuclear bomb waiting to go off.
you said it pretty well.
im pretty confused now about the weapon system lol. this is an article i found:
Actions: This area allows you to place the class abilities into your action bar. According to Famitsu, the status (i.e. growth) is split into two parts – “rank” and “physical level.” Rank is associated with the weapon used – so as you gain more experience with a particular weapon, your “rank” with that weapon class increases. As that rank increases, you will learn additional abilities. Notably, once learned, these abilities remain with the character. In other words, skills learned while a Pugilist, may be used while you are a Conjurer. There will be certain restrictions on this, however, and not all abilities will be usable by any class, and there are penalties (strength of the effect and/or time limits) when using an “out-of-class” ability. This leads to a very customizable character development.
so will there be no multi class weapons? will new weapons have restrictions based on rank or physical lvl? im not in alpha and its so much thats still hidden from us. i would like to know more so i can come to a better conclusion about need before greed. in the event that its based on rank or physical lvl, i can see some restrictions being put into place on who gets what. i still dont think need before greed will be a problem, but awaiting more info.
I will always go along with whatever the PUG decides they want to do.
Having said that, "Need before Greed" is a very antiquated concept and if I make a PUG, I will always make it FFA. "Need before Greed" may have made sense in EQ1 when there were no auction houses or AFK player bazaars/shops but it does not make sense anymore.
If a Mage and a Swordsman are in a PUG together and a Rare Sword drops, yes the swordsman can equip it immediately... but the Mage can easily put it in the AH, shop, etc and get enough money to buy his own Rare Staff. So how exactly is it that it is considered Need for the Swordsman but Greed for the Mage? The end goal is exactly the same- a better weapon. Why is the Mage considered greedy because he may have to wait a day or two to get his Rare Item? It makes no sense.
It shouldn't be called "Need before Greed", it should be called "Instant Greed before Delayed Greed". Both players benefit equally from the item, just one doesn't benefit as immediately as the other.
Like I said, it may have made sense in EQ1 where the mage wouldn't be able to sell it for what its worth without sitting in a zone and shouting out that he has it for sale for a few hours, hoping a buyer will come along. The other alternative in EQ was to sell it to an NPC vendor for a price well below its worth. In that case, that really would be a greedy thing to do- to sell it at a way reduced price instead of letting the class that can use it, enjoy it. I feel this is where the concept got started.
However, EQ is an old game (although I loved it ten years ago). In today's MMO world with Auction Houses or AFK shops, you do generally get what the item is worth (what defines worth more than supply and demand?) and are basically trading it (via currency) for something you can use of equal value. Oh and if you would rather sell three of those rare items to get a super rare staff or cloak, I still don't see how its being greedy.
Now, I will agree with previous posters that an exception would be a No Sell/No Trade item. In those situations, I am all for "Need before Greed" because the AH argument doesn't apply. In addition, the fact that in FFXIV you are not only able to change classes but are arguably encouraged to do it (due to the sub-ability system), means nobody should be upset with a Mage who wants a Rare Sword because he may "need" it to, just not immediately. I also agree with others that it won't even be a big deal in this game due to the system likely being similar to FFXI.
Im ok with it either way. But just dont wait till the item drops to decide which way you want it. Make it clear up front, when I join.
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
just so im not flammed... i did NOT read all the posts here. there r just too many lengthy posts so if my ideas have already been stated then i apologize.
Personally i don't see a need for loot to openly annouced to all the party members. I'd prefer to have an option to silently drop to random participants and leave it to them to decide if they would like to advertise the drop. the option for others to roll could be left to whomever it randomly drops to. i've never argued the results of a random drop or crappy roll. this would be just as random and spare me and others some level of arguing.
scribble scribble