Just wanted add something about the webpage someone cited describing Agon clans activity; that page could be outdated or at least not accurate. According to that site my clan is dead, ok so who are those guys I see everyday on the clan chat. I don't know perhaps ghosts, lol.
Oh and I feel for you if you plan to become a Craftor, unless you can find a Clan that will provide you with the rare ressources, you're in for some massive grind (far greater than the grind we're talking about). So awesome from a Dedicated Craftor Point-Of-View. How the heck am I suppose to sell my items if everyone can craft them?
In DF crafting everything for yourself is like building your car yourself IRL. You can do it - but doesn't mean that it'll be cheaper or faster than buying one.
Let's just say that you need 5 bloodcrafted full plate helmets of Q4 feather with highest possible durability. If you'll see them at player vendor - you can be sure that player who sells them:
- spent 20k iron ingots leveling up armorsmithing
- spent another 5k iron ingots + hundreds of Q1, Q2, Q2 hearts leveling bloodcraft
- spent 500k gold buying player vendor + 100k buying a house
- crafted for ages to get 120 wisdom, high trueforge armor and high dwarven steelmaster skills
- bought or mined iron ore
- bought, ninja-mined or killed rare golem to get selentine ore
- acquired catalyst and 5 of each Q4 enchanting materials
- spent 1 mln gold leveling up enchanting
You can either pay 5k gold for such helmet, or spend 5 mln gold and 5 months leveling up appropriate skills yourself.
The same goes for:
- battlehorns
- wyrd amulets of Q4 vitality
- arcane rings
- R60 justicebringers with Q4 keen
- keened tyransmiths of keeness
- schooners
The main problem with crafting is that it requires investments, and it's hard to trade without player vendor, which is very expensive. We'll see if clan vendors, and vendors in NPC cities will solve the problem in DF 2010.
I think you missed the point. Why would I want to buy that helmet when I want to CRAFT THEM to level up my own crafting skills? The only way to raise these skills is to grind both mobs for gold and enchant materials, and ressources nodes. Basically, you're doing the same thing as everyone else who doesn't craft do: Grind all day to get his skills up. Only difference is that you need to farm Ressources Nodes too, which takes a lot more time.
Allowing everyone to be a craftor in everything means that there is little to no economy between the clans, there is no market. Player Vendors can only be used by the "rich" guys. Rare Ore can only be found on hard difficulty mobs (Golems) or Clan Quarry. The whole system screams "fail".
Oh and I feel for you if you plan to become a Craftor, unless you can find a Clan that will provide you with the rare ressources, you're in for some massive grind (far greater than the grind we're talking about). So awesome from a Dedicated Craftor Point-Of-View. How the heck am I suppose to sell my items if everyone can craft them?
In DF crafting everything for yourself is like building your car yourself IRL. You can do it - but doesn't mean that it'll be cheaper or faster than buying one.
Let's just say that you need 5 bloodcrafted full plate helmets of Q4 feather with highest possible durability. If you'll see them at player vendor - you can be sure that player who sells them:
- spent 20k iron ingots leveling up armorsmithing
- spent another 5k iron ingots + hundreds of Q1, Q2, Q2 hearts leveling bloodcraft
- spent 500k gold buying player vendor + 100k buying a house
- crafted for ages to get 120 wisdom, high trueforge armor and high dwarven steelmaster skills
- bought or mined iron ore
- bought, ninja-mined or killed rare golem to get selentine ore
- acquired catalyst and 5 of each Q4 enchanting materials
- spent 1 mln gold leveling up enchanting
You can either pay 5k gold for such helmet, or spend 5 mln gold and 5 months leveling up appropriate skills yourself.
The same goes for:
- battlehorns
- wyrd amulets of Q4 vitality
- arcane rings
- R60 justicebringers with Q4 keen
- keened tyransmiths of keeness
- schooners
The main problem with crafting is that it requires investments, and it's hard to trade without player vendor, which is very expensive. We'll see if clan vendors, and vendors in NPC cities will solve the problem in DF 2010.
there is little to no economy
madness is a genious, I understand now why he quit DF and then came back and quit again once he realized that he wasn't willing to put forth the effort like everyone else. Sorry Madness, you sound like you need to find an easier game and take your QQ elsewhere, DF is obviously not for you. Personally, I love being able to craft everything myself and there is always something that is still cheaper for me to buy than craft myself, like warhulks.
You are jus completely wrong about so many things, you should just stop posting about things you don't fully understand.
I think you missed the point. Why would I want to buy that helmet when I want to CRAFT THEM to level up my own crafting skills?
Allowing everyone to be a craftor in everything means that there is little to no economy between the clans, there is no market. Player Vendors can only be used by the "rich" guys. Rare Ore can only be found on hard difficulty mobs (Golems) or Clan Quarry. The whole system screams "fail".
You need battlehorn - on open market thats 2500 gold, or 15 mins of farming. You can of course craft one yourself - once you've spent 270 000 gold on leveling up skill. You'll end up with 300 normal mounts - which you don't need.
More extreme case - you need Q4 keen on your weapon. Q4 enchanter will charge you 2 000 gold + cost of mats. If you want to get to the Q4 level - it's more than 2 000 000 gold.
I sell arcane jewelery with 1000% margin over cost of materials - and it's still cheaper than market price. Cost of leveling this skill up is 15k. I know exactly of one place where you can get good quantity of reptile cinder - and I don't share this information. Even if my customers would know how to get it - they would pay just to save time.
And another example - there is exactly one guy with 100 in shipbuilding, and probably 2 with 100 in warhulk construction. Yes - they were supported by their clans, and wouldn't be able to achieve it by themselves.
In any MMO large competitive clans are not forced to trade with anyone from outside. They just buy 5 additional crafting accounts, and share them between members. In DF, where there are no restrictions whatsoever on crafting - it's not uncommon to share crafting alt - to make sure that he gets fastest possible skill gains.
madness is a genious, I understand now why he quit DF and then came back and quit again once he realized that he wasn't willing to put forth the effort like everyone else. Sorry Madness, you sound like you need to find an easier game and take your QQ elsewhere, DF is obviously not for you. Personally, I love being able to craft everything myself and there is always something that is still cheaper for me to buy than craft myself, like warhulks.
You are jus completely wrong about so many things, you should just stop posting about things you don't fully understand.
I'm guessing the part where you say that you've played DarkFall since 3 weeks after release was a lie otherwise you'd know the state of the game before the June Expansion. It's the June Expansion that added Housing/Villages, Random Chaos Chest, increased the "XP" gain on skills against monster by 6x and 3x on players and a lot more. In other words, back when I played in May, the game was empty, lacked on several levels and the grind was a lot more worse . And since I'm not a huge fan of "AFK Macro'ing", I left. I pay to play, not pay to AFK grind.
Also, perhaps I missed the train but I forgot how DarkFall is a "hard game". The death penality is a joke, there is no real loss even if someone loots your corpse, you can always make that same armor and weapon in 2 seconds. (Alright, 40-50 seconds if you maxed Industry). Heck, I still have around 50 full set of Full Plate armor and about 150 rank 50 2h maces....
I don't see how "wanting a better crafting system" means that I should be looking for an easier game. I really don't understand your logic. The crafting system in DarkFall lacks on several levels (I mentionned a few in my previous post). It has nothing to do with "Finding an easier game". The fact that you are able to craft everything by yourself is what bothers me and that's what I'm complaining about. It kills the economy, which is already lacking in DarkFall.
Perhaps you should remove those pink glasses because nowhere in my post have I said anything "wrong" or that I do not "fully understand". These are serious issues that players on ForumFall have also tried many times to bring suggestions to fix this or make the crafting system a lot more interesting. Even the DarkFall Community Expansion Wishlist contains a few of these ideas I believe yet Aventurine has not added anything nor released any "important" information regarding DarkFall 2010 in months (same goes for their Twitter which has been inactive for quite a while).
First, most vets did not work their way up, they macro'ed their way up. AFK Swimming/Running/Sprinting/Riding/Diving/Harvesting. Blood Walls, exploiting mobs, etc. AFK Casting your buffs too!
People that have played for a long time don't understand why this is a real sense of frustration and I've never seen it succesfully debated by a fan of the game except to say "Well, the game is just too hard (or, althernatively, "hardcore") for you."
The main source of frustration that long term players will never understand is when they started, they were on more or less equal footing with everyone else. They never had to grind mobs for 3 months to just have a chance against most people in the game, so they'll never get why that could be a problem for people. Throw on top of that the fact that newer players aren't even allowed to advance in the same way veterns did (by macroing), and it really starts to suck.
Darkfall's gameplay is determined by the players, and yet apparently no thought at all went into what would happen when most people in the game have vet-level skills and how that changes a new-player experience.
To make it easier to understand, it would be like if WoW was released and then a year later they made every PVE mob 10x stronger. Nobody in their right mind would start a game like that. Instead of doing that, though, WoW and other PVE games make the grind significantly easier, because they realize the focus of the game has shifted to endgame and they want people to get there as easy as possible.
Darkfall's endgame is fighting other players and having a decent-good shot against them. Just through the passage of time, the "grind" has increased from 1 day to 3 months compared to when the game was released. Throw on regular ganks by vets nearly every day and a newer player is made abundantly aware of how much further he has to go just to be able to play the same game vets were able to play when the game was released.
Even vets say that the game was way more fun when it was released and there was fighting everywhere, and it was mostly evenly-matched fighting. If AV was interested in making Darkfall fun (sometimes I wonder if they pay attention to the game more than like 5 minutes a week- 4 minutes to cash their sub checks and 1 minute for tasos to make a "stay tuned" post), they would be working diligently on making the game mimic that initial experience as much as possible.
tldr: when players like me say we would immediately sub if there was a new server opened with no transfers allowed, it should be a big clue to vets that we're not against working hard, and when we complain about the grind it's not really about the grind itself- we just want to be able to play the game as intended, which means you should be able to attack or defend yourself against almost anybody, instead of nobody, which is how it plays now.
First, most vets did not work their way up, they macro'ed their way up. AFK Swimming/Running/Sprinting/Riding/Diving/Harvesting. Blood Walls, exploiting mobs, etc. AFK Casting your buffs too!
People that have played for a long time don't understand why this is a real sense of frustration and I've never seen it succesfully debated by a fan of the game except to say "Well, the game is just too hard (or, althernatively, "hardcore") for you."
The main source of frustration that long term players will never understand is when they started, they were on more or less equal footing with everyone else. They never had to grind mobs for 3 months to just have a chance against most people in the game, so they'll never get why that could be a problem for people.
Darkfall's gameplay is determined by the players, and yet apparently no thought at all went into what would happen when most people in the game have vet-level skills and how that changes a new-player experience.
To make it easier to understand, it would be like if WoW was released and then a year later they made every PVE mob 10x stronger. Nobody in their right mind would start a game like that. Instead of doing that, though, WoW and other PVE games make the grind significantly easier, because they realize the focus of the game has shifted to endgame and they want people to get there as easy as possible.
Darkfall's endgame is fighting other players and having a decent-good shot against them. Just through the passage of time, the "grind" has increased from 1 day to 3 months compared to when the game was released. Throw on regular ganks by vets nearly every day and a newer player is made abundantly aware of how much further he has to go just to be able to play the same game vets were able to play when the game was released.
Even vets say that the game was way more fun when it was released and there was fighting everywhere, and it was mostly evenly-matched fighting. If AV was interested in making Darkfall fun (sometimes I wonder if they pay attention to the game more than like 5 minutes a week- 4 minutes to cash their sub checks and 1 minute for tasos to make a "stay tuned" post), they would be working diligently on making the game mimic that initial experience as much as possible.
I have to agree and what a lot of "Vets" seems to forget is that when they started, everyone was on the same level. You didn't get chased by a guy shooting rank 99 nukes in all magic schools killing you in 3 hits. But that never really bothered me. I mean, I don't mind dieing at all, but I do have to admit that Aventurine needs to ease to grind or find alternative ways for newer players to join in the end-game faster instead of just shooting Mana Missiles/ Eldritch Sphere/ Rend.
First, most vets did not work their way up, they macro'ed their way up. AFK Swimming/Running/Sprinting/Riding/Diving/Harvesting. Blood Walls, exploiting mobs, etc. AFK Casting your buffs too!
People that have played for a long time don't understand why this is a real sense of frustration and I've never seen it succesfully debated by a fan of the game except to say "Well, the game is just too hard (or, althernatively, "hardcore") for you."
The main source of frustration that long term players will never understand is when they started, they were on more or less equal footing with everyone else. They never had to grind mobs for 3 months to just have a chance against most people in the game, so they'll never get why that could be a problem for people.
Darkfall's gameplay is determined by the players, and yet apparently no thought at all went into what would happen when most people in the game have vet-level skills and how that changes a new-player experience.
To make it easier to understand, it would be like if WoW was released and then a year later they made every PVE mob 10x stronger. Nobody in their right mind would start a game like that. Instead of doing that, though, WoW and other PVE games make the grind significantly easier, because they realize the focus of the game has shifted to endgame and they want people to get there as easy as possible.
Darkfall's endgame is fighting other players and having a decent-good shot against them. Just through the passage of time, the "grind" has increased from 1 day to 3 months compared to when the game was released. Throw on regular ganks by vets nearly every day and a newer player is made abundantly aware of how much further he has to go just to be able to play the same game vets were able to play when the game was released.
Even vets say that the game was way more fun when it was released and there was fighting everywhere, and it was mostly evenly-matched fighting. If AV was interested in making Darkfall fun (sometimes I wonder if they pay attention to the game more than like 5 minutes a week- 4 minutes to cash their sub checks and 1 minute for tasos to make a "stay tuned" post), they would be working diligently on making the game mimic that initial experience as much as possible.
I have to agree and what a lot of "Vets" seems to forget is that when they started, everyone was on the same level. You didn't get chased by a guy shooting rank 99 nukes in all magic schools killing you in 3 hits. But that never really bothered me. I mean, I don't mind dieing at all, but I do have to admit that Aventurine needs to ease to grind or find alternative ways for newer players to join in the end-game faster instead of just shooting Mana Missiles/ Eldritch Sphere/ Rend.
I was able to laugh it off for the most part, but it's a stark reminder of how far you have to go, because being able to fight those same guys that are ganking you is the whole point of the game. There is no "end game" really, there is only "the game", and the game is PVP (obviously). A newer player can't really play "the game" until at least 3 months in, and some have mentioned in this thread that 3 months is only about half way, whereas vets were able to play "the game" as soon as they logged in, or within a day or two if they didn't want to fight with their leafblade.
There's 2 ways around the problem. Either make "the game" about something besides PVP (by introducing rich PVE quests or something), which nobody is really asking for, or make "the game" playable as intended for newer players. It's very unlikely to happen, though, considering the pace at which AV makes changes (such as cracking down on macroing which should've happened on day 1 and not day 300). If it was going to happen it probably would've and should've been built into the game itself, but that would've required some forethought about what was going to happen once the majority of the playerbase becomes uber. I just don't see much forethought or even understanding of their own friggin' game by AV. I still post about it on here from time to time only because some vets don't seem to understand what the big deal is.
I saw this thread title and my immediate thought was "It's still breathing?" :P
But seriously...
Cutting down on the grind factor to make the game less ganktastic may have been a good idea.... several years ago. It would have made the game much less ganktastic.
But I think it's too late now. A change like this would be a major slap in the face to players who endured the long grind. It would devalue their efforts and seriously anger some of them.
Remember that Horizons did this? At some point they made levelling a dragon much easier and it created intense resentment amongst some players, who then turned their bitterness on the community. For a time it was really very ugly.
I can understand the arguments for cutting down the grind. I really can. I've always felt the slow character progression and the open pvp + full looting was an uncomfortable combination - that has obviously been problematic.
But this particular fix is too late.
If the goal is to make it easier for new players then there are far better options. Eg. they could create a small number of genuinely safe newbie areas, with a "magical" suppression effect in place that prohibits players from harming each other there.
Or players themselves could do it. Eg. I always liked the look of that island on the west side of the map - the one with Seelie on it. I always thought that would be the perfect spot for players to create a patrolled newbie area.
I saw this thread title and my immediate thought was "It's still breathing?" :P
But seriously...
Cutting down on the grind factor to make the game less ganktastic may have been a good idea.... several years ago. It would have made the game much less ganktastic.
But I think it's too late now. A change like this would be a major slap in the face to players who endured the long grind. It would devalue their efforts and seriously anger some of them.
Remember that Horizons did this? At some point they made levelling a dragon much easier and it created intense resentment amongst some players, who then turned their bitterness on the community. For a time it was really very ugly.
I can understand the arguments for cutting down the grind. I really can. I've always felt the slow character progression and the open pvp + full looting was an uncomfortable combination - that has obviously been problematic.
But this particular fix is too late.
If the goal is to make it easier for new players then there are far better options. Eg. they could create a small number of genuinely safe newbie areas, with a "magical" suppression effect in place that prohibits players from harming each other there.
Or players themselves could do it. Eg. I always liked the look of that island on the west side of the map - the one with Seelie on it. I always thought that would be the perfect spot for players to create a patrolled newbie area.
The whole point of reducing the grind is to let new players reach a "level" where they can 'compete' with others. As mentionned in my previous post, most vets macro'ed their way up (and no one can deny this fact, blood walling being the most obvious form).
DarkFall would still be gank-heavy with less grind, and it should be. Ganking is part of the game, remove it and you have a Battlefield Bad Company 2 game in a Fantasy setting, and that's not good (even though BBC2 is awesome).
As for slow progression and the open pvp + full looting, had Aventurine enforced rules from Day 1 and had better "working" systems, I don't think players would actually care that much about the slow progression. The core system has it's flaws and players make very interesting suggestions on a daily basis but I have seen very few being added into the game. When the whole community makes a HUGE list called DarkFall Community Expansion Wishlist and that most players all agree with (most of) it's content, that says something.
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
Are you serious right now? Do you think Adventurine is in it for love of the game or something? I bet their investors are pissed beyond comprehension.
The whole point of reducing the grind is to let new players reach a "level" where they can 'compete' with others. As mentionned in my previous post, most vets macro'ed their way up (and no one can deny this fact, blood walling being the most obvious form).
DarkFall would still be gank-heavy with less grind, and it should be. Ganking is part of the game, remove it and you have a Battlefield Bad Company 2 game in a Fantasy setting, and that's not good (even though BBC2 is awesome).
I'm not sure I understand you here.
You want players to be able to 'compete' with others, but still want it to be 'gank-heavy'. Aren't they kind of mutually exclusive? When we talk of ganking we usually refer to stronger (skill/level wise) blicking smaller players.
I don't see that you can have that both ways.
But regardless, as per my previous post, this particular solution is just plain too late. Any attempt to devalue existing players' efforts - and reducing the long term grind does exactly that - will not only anger those players but it sets a bad precedent for potential players. If the developer is willing to devalue this, what else might they devalue in the future? What's the point of investing any effort at all?
Grind reduction is an easy fix. But implemented it now it would create other problems. Ideally of course, these issues are worked out in beta so the paying public never has to consider them. Unfortunately that didn't happen.
At this point in time there are far better solutions to this problem. Just to throw another example out there, any mechanism that helps players quickly hook up with like minded guilds who play at the same time as you would help. If you're not playing alone then your skill level relative to older players is much less of an issue.
The whole point of reducing the grind is to let new players reach a "level" where they can 'compete' with others. As mentionned in my previous post, most vets macro'ed their way up (and no one can deny this fact, blood walling being the most obvious form).
DarkFall would still be gank-heavy with less grind, and it should be. Ganking is part of the game, remove it and you have a Battlefield Bad Company 2 game in a Fantasy setting, and that's not good (even though BBC2 is awesome).
I'm not sure I understand you here.
You want players to be able to 'compete' with others, but still want it to be 'gank-heavy'. Aren't they kind of mutually exclusive? When we talk of ganking we usually refer to stronger (skill/level wise) blicking smaller players.
I don't see that you can have that both ways.
But regardless, as per my previous post, this particular solution is just plain too late. Any attempt to devalue existing players' efforts - and reducing the long term grind does exactly that - will not only anger those players but it sets a bad precedent for potential players. If the developer is willing to devalue this, what else might they devalue in the future? What's the point of investing any effort at all?
Grind reduction is an easy fix. But implemented it now it would create other problems. Ideally of course, these issues are worked out in beta so the paying public never has to consider them. Unfortunately that didn't happen.
At this point in time there are far better solutions to this problem. Just to throw another example out there, any mechanism that helps players quickly hook up with like minded guilds who play at the same time as you would help. If you're not playing alone then your skill level relative to older players is much less of an issue.
Ganking is not restricted to a single stronger player killing a weaker player. You could gank a stronger player while he's harvesting or crafting for exemple, you could gank in a group, etc.
When I talk about players being able to "compete", it's usually for players to be able to participate in Clan War (Sieges) and Sea Towers. Since it's extremely easy for a new player to get killed in 3-4 hits , there really is nothing they can do until 2-3 months in the game.
The grind reduction has little impact in the case of DarkFall. With the June expansion, they greatly reduced the skill grind (x6 on monsters, x3 on players) and most players were happy about it. The "grind" most players are asking now is Stats grind, which requires A LOT of farming and it takes quite a while of Vitality/Strength grinding before you reach 250-300 HP, which means that you are somewhat "PvP ready" as you are able to take on a few extra hits (max HP is 450)
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game. Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
Are you serious right now? Do you think Adventurine is in it for love of the game or something? I bet their investors are pissed beyond comprehension.
*lol* they are independent which menas they don't have greedy bastards like Ricitello, Smedley or Kotick telling them to dumb down the game so that everyone can have success.
Is it really that hard admitting this game isn't for you? Enjoy it or stay away from it its that simple.
Its a game about freedom if you can't deal with it go back to Wow.
The grind also has some advantages you don't have to deal with stupid ez-mode players.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
Now that you talk about RPG, I remember those paper and paper game (perhaps not an accurate comparision but I went to DF because of feeling the same I felt with the tabletop RPG games) where achieving the epic level could take months, perhaps years. I remember me and my party to be wandering around just to see if the GM's dice hit an encounter a so getting xp and loot. Grinding in RPGs is a constant, it is the way it was designed by Gary Gygax.
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
Are you serious right now? Do you think Adventurine is in it for love of the game or something? I bet their investors are pissed beyond comprehension.
*lol* they are independent which menas they don't have greedy bastards like Ricitello, Smedley or Kotick telling them to dumb down the game so that everyone can have success. Is it really that hard admitting this game isn't for you? Enjoy it or stay away from it its that simple. Its a game about freedom if you can't deal with it go back to Wow. The grind also has some advantages you don't have to deal with stupid ez-mode players.
I hope the fact that they are independant somehow means they can run servers with nobody playing, because if it doesn't I know few fanboys who won't be welcome anywhere. Business is to make money.
You know... back in the beginning, and even for the next few years, Lineage 2 had this same 'problem', with new players having to go through what those who started in the beginning had to... the game was top-heavy, etc. etc. And in fact, the game for the first players was even more grueling since NC "eased it up" a bit over time.
You had higher level players ganking lower level players, haunting the newbie areas, etc. etc. New players had no chance to fight back. Some high level players would deliberately wear lowbie gear to fool a new player into thinking they were the same level range, just to bait them.
All the problems I'm seeing mentioned in threads like this one - and more - were prevalent 5+ years ago in Lineage 2 - and even still happen to this day to some degree. It isn't some situation unique to DF. It goes with the territory when you're talking about FFA PvP MMOs. Shadowbane had similar things happening as well.
Still, I don't ever recall anyone complaining about it being "unfair" though, because people who started months before them were - gasp - farther along. They'd bitch that some idiot 20 levels higher than them was ganking/greifing them... but at the same time, it went with the territory.
People didn't worry about what others were doing, or how far along others were, because they were too busy chipping away and developing their own characters. They simply played the game and, eventually, they got to those higher levels as well. And if you think DF is a grind, you should have played L2 when it was still new. Its grind was almost legendary. Most MMOs I've played since are a cake-walk compared to it.
It just seems funny to me to see the impatient, entitled "I want to get to the end faster, or I'm gonna stomp and pout" mindset being so shamelessly displayed among the so-called "hardcore" crowd. Personally, I have never understood and still don't understand the mentality at all that players who start later should be given an easier/faster ride than the first people who came before, or "it's not fair".
People like to frame it as "why should we have to go through all that grind to be competitive simply because we started later than others did?" Well, to answer that with a question... Why should your journey to the top be any easier or faster than theirs was, simply because you chose to start later than they did? Why does starting 6, 8, 12, whatever months later than others entitle you to anything more than what they got? Where, exactly, does this sense of entitlement come from?
As for having to get to end game to PvP... Says who? Is there some rule that says "you must be high level and be equal to high-end players before you can PvP"? I'm not aware of any such thing... I know I saw PvP'ing going on in the lower level areas when I was playing DF.
Frankly, it sounds to me like a convenient cover for what is really just people wanting a faster/easier ride to the top than those who came before them, making it sound like a "major problem".
-shrug-
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
When you'd read official forums, most players do want higher population. Sadly the game is not ready for that.
I agree that In pursuing mass market acceptiation some MMOs were dumbed down.
But DF just needs polish, better in-game tutorial, better UI, meaningful alignment system, better character development system, easier ways for newbies to trade, better sound and graphics, more content etc. We kind of used to DF, and don't see it's shortcomings.
Besides, AV never, ever done anything to dumb down DF. So I don't think that they'll do that in the future.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
When you'd read official forums, most players do want higher population. Sadly the game is not ready for that.
I agree that In pursuing mass market acceptiation some MMOs were dumbed down.
But DF just needs polish, better in-game tutorial, better UI, meaningful alignment system, better character development system, easier ways for newbies to trade, better sound and graphics, more content etc. We kind of used to DF, and don't see it's shortcomings.
Besides, AV never, ever done anything to dumb down DF. So I don't think that they'll do that in the future.
Ofcourse any new feature they implement is welcome but i disagree with your "game is not ready for higher population" line.
For me the points why the masses used to other MMO cant stand a chance in DF is, time commitment and harshness of the world, the effort you need to put into prior you have a feel of having accomplished something.
But exactly that is the strength of the game, that makes it the best game on the market right now and it makes DF exceptional and unique.
Making it "ready for the masses" would make DF less of a good game in terms of being exceptional and unique. The problem is not to give too much away from the nature and identity to sacrifice to the masses. Things have to stay difficult to accomplish, You shouldn't be able to get the biggest boat prior making preparations for months as a clan, you shouldn't have full stats and all skills in 3 - 4 months time. You need to prepare yourself to gear up for battle for hours..all these things make DF unique and exceptional and fresh compared to other weak MMO.
You post about the crafter earlier in these thread illustrates the value of crafted goods for example. What would be the attraction in if all would run around in q5 enchanted uber gear. There need to be a chance for those who invest more in the game to distinquish from others.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I've been playing DF since 3 weeks after release and I've heard all the arguments from those who seem to think that making character progression faster would benifit Darkfall greatly and this will increase subs.
Although on the surface this seems more appealing to the masses and seems like it would attract some players, the consequences such a move would have much greater negative impacts and destroy the core community.
You see, when people can max out their characters in a month or so, they aren't online as much and the game somehow seems more boring. Character progression is subconciously entertaining and once that stops, people feel little reason to log on unless something big is going on, meaning less players in the world out farming.
Another consequence of faster character progression to cap is that it turns the game even more into a game where you must reach a certain level to compete. I know this sounds exactly like the reason the whiners use for their arguments for increasing stat gain because they think noobs should be able to "catch up with vets" with less effort and that is whats killing the game, so let me explain.
When you make it so you have fast progression to cap. Instead of having just a few players that have been playing for 1.5 years having maxed stats, everyone will have maxed stats except those few newer players. For the newer players this means that 99% of the players they encounter will have max hp and there will be less middle ground. Less middle ground means more of a game where you need to reach max level to compete. Some people forget that this is a group pvp game and 1v1 and even number battles are nowhere near as common as an imbalanced fight. If you are a weakling and want to pvp, there is nothing preventing you from joining up with your clans daily pvp group, safety in numbers. You don't need to go toe to toe with that guy who has been playing for 1.5 years to have fun in DF in contrast to the picture the whiners try to create.
I would think turning the game more into a game where you need to reach max level to compete would be discouraging for newer players.
To put things in perspective, a newly created character has around 200 hp and max HP chars, of which maybe one or two exist, have around 430 hp. Less of a difference between new and old player than any other game, yet still the whiners seek to destroy DF b/c they want DF to be more like some other game they liked.
If AV increased stat gains and took out long term progression, not only would it piss off the core community of DF players who have dedicated months into developing their characters, it would mean less players in the game because so many would have finished their characters and have no reason to be out farming mobs anymore or to be macroing with regs on them in cities just waiting to be killed. Long term progression is what keeps many players playing for years instead of months and taking that out would surely kill DF.
I know for certain if AV caters to the whiners who want an easy ride, and every naked with a rank 40 in the city im raiding has 400 hp, I will start looking for another game. Long term progression is a part of DF and part of the competition and those who want it taken out should just find another easier game instead of ruining the only game left for some of us.
Stats already gain quite quickly for new players, and, although it does sound appealing on the surface to the naive, for those who love Darkfall the way it is, taking out long term progression would be the worst thing to happen to DF. When AV wants to increase player subs they will put a box version on the shelves.
TLDR: Long term progression is good and part of why I enjoy DF, whiners should just find an easier game they enjoy instead of trying to ruin ours.
As far as I'm concerned AV could just give everyone 100 in everything and make Agon the worlds biggest online quake deathmatch arena. Darkfall is far closer to shooters than RPGs. And that's why people cry about the grind......snip..........they might aswell just give everyone 100 in every skill and it wouldn't even make a damn difference. Darkfall just is no RPG and yet tries to justify the grind by claiming it is. That's the dilemma of Darkfall and I hope AV recognizes that before it's too late.
if they had done this i'd finally have something approaching my dream MMO. i'd be playing it non-stop since beta and never would have stopped and never would get anything done in my personal life. so its kind of good that its fatally flawed i guess. 8) i've only played it 3 months. DF does so many things extremely well, but several key things (including the "char progression") really throw me off of it.
Comments
Just wanted add something about the webpage someone cited describing Agon clans activity; that page could be outdated or at least not accurate. According to that site my clan is dead, ok so who are those guys I see everyday on the clan chat. I don't know perhaps ghosts, lol.
I think you missed the point. Why would I want to buy that helmet when I want to CRAFT THEM to level up my own crafting skills? The only way to raise these skills is to grind both mobs for gold and enchant materials, and ressources nodes. Basically, you're doing the same thing as everyone else who doesn't craft do: Grind all day to get his skills up. Only difference is that you need to farm Ressources Nodes too, which takes a lot more time.
Allowing everyone to be a craftor in everything means that there is little to no economy between the clans, there is no market. Player Vendors can only be used by the "rich" guys. Rare Ore can only be found on hard difficulty mobs (Golems) or Clan Quarry. The whole system screams "fail".
And don't get me started on all the other flaws.
madness is a genious, I understand now why he quit DF and then came back and quit again once he realized that he wasn't willing to put forth the effort like everyone else. Sorry Madness, you sound like you need to find an easier game and take your QQ elsewhere, DF is obviously not for you. Personally, I love being able to craft everything myself and there is always something that is still cheaper for me to buy than craft myself, like warhulks.
You are jus completely wrong about so many things, you should just stop posting about things you don't fully understand.
You need battlehorn - on open market thats 2500 gold, or 15 mins of farming. You can of course craft one yourself - once you've spent 270 000 gold on leveling up skill. You'll end up with 300 normal mounts - which you don't need.
More extreme case - you need Q4 keen on your weapon. Q4 enchanter will charge you 2 000 gold + cost of mats. If you want to get to the Q4 level - it's more than 2 000 000 gold.
I sell arcane jewelery with 1000% margin over cost of materials - and it's still cheaper than market price. Cost of leveling this skill up is 15k. I know exactly of one place where you can get good quantity of reptile cinder - and I don't share this information. Even if my customers would know how to get it - they would pay just to save time.
And another example - there is exactly one guy with 100 in shipbuilding, and probably 2 with 100 in warhulk construction. Yes - they were supported by their clans, and wouldn't be able to achieve it by themselves.
In any MMO large competitive clans are not forced to trade with anyone from outside. They just buy 5 additional crafting accounts, and share them between members. In DF, where there are no restrictions whatsoever on crafting - it's not uncommon to share crafting alt - to make sure that he gets fastest possible skill gains.
I'm guessing the part where you say that you've played DarkFall since 3 weeks after release was a lie otherwise you'd know the state of the game before the June Expansion. It's the June Expansion that added Housing/Villages, Random Chaos Chest, increased the "XP" gain on skills against monster by 6x and 3x on players and a lot more. In other words, back when I played in May, the game was empty, lacked on several levels and the grind was a lot more worse . And since I'm not a huge fan of "AFK Macro'ing", I left. I pay to play, not pay to AFK grind.
Also, perhaps I missed the train but I forgot how DarkFall is a "hard game". The death penality is a joke, there is no real loss even if someone loots your corpse, you can always make that same armor and weapon in 2 seconds. (Alright, 40-50 seconds if you maxed Industry). Heck, I still have around 50 full set of Full Plate armor and about 150 rank 50 2h maces....
I don't see how "wanting a better crafting system" means that I should be looking for an easier game. I really don't understand your logic. The crafting system in DarkFall lacks on several levels (I mentionned a few in my previous post). It has nothing to do with "Finding an easier game". The fact that you are able to craft everything by yourself is what bothers me and that's what I'm complaining about. It kills the economy, which is already lacking in DarkFall.
Perhaps you should remove those pink glasses because nowhere in my post have I said anything "wrong" or that I do not "fully understand". These are serious issues that players on ForumFall have also tried many times to bring suggestions to fix this or make the crafting system a lot more interesting. Even the DarkFall Community Expansion Wishlist contains a few of these ideas I believe yet Aventurine has not added anything nor released any "important" information regarding DarkFall 2010 in months (same goes for their Twitter which has been inactive for quite a while).
First, most vets did not work their way up, they macro'ed their way up. AFK Swimming/Running/Sprinting/Riding/Diving/Harvesting. Blood Walls, exploiting mobs, etc. AFK Casting your buffs too!
People that have played for a long time don't understand why this is a real sense of frustration and I've never seen it succesfully debated by a fan of the game except to say "Well, the game is just too hard (or, althernatively, "hardcore") for you."
The main source of frustration that long term players will never understand is when they started, they were on more or less equal footing with everyone else. They never had to grind mobs for 3 months to just have a chance against most people in the game, so they'll never get why that could be a problem for people. Throw on top of that the fact that newer players aren't even allowed to advance in the same way veterns did (by macroing), and it really starts to suck.
Darkfall's gameplay is determined by the players, and yet apparently no thought at all went into what would happen when most people in the game have vet-level skills and how that changes a new-player experience.
To make it easier to understand, it would be like if WoW was released and then a year later they made every PVE mob 10x stronger. Nobody in their right mind would start a game like that. Instead of doing that, though, WoW and other PVE games make the grind significantly easier, because they realize the focus of the game has shifted to endgame and they want people to get there as easy as possible.
Darkfall's endgame is fighting other players and having a decent-good shot against them. Just through the passage of time, the "grind" has increased from 1 day to 3 months compared to when the game was released. Throw on regular ganks by vets nearly every day and a newer player is made abundantly aware of how much further he has to go just to be able to play the same game vets were able to play when the game was released.
Even vets say that the game was way more fun when it was released and there was fighting everywhere, and it was mostly evenly-matched fighting. If AV was interested in making Darkfall fun (sometimes I wonder if they pay attention to the game more than like 5 minutes a week- 4 minutes to cash their sub checks and 1 minute for tasos to make a "stay tuned" post), they would be working diligently on making the game mimic that initial experience as much as possible.
tldr: when players like me say we would immediately sub if there was a new server opened with no transfers allowed, it should be a big clue to vets that we're not against working hard, and when we complain about the grind it's not really about the grind itself- we just want to be able to play the game as intended, which means you should be able to attack or defend yourself against almost anybody, instead of nobody, which is how it plays now.
I have to agree and what a lot of "Vets" seems to forget is that when they started, everyone was on the same level. You didn't get chased by a guy shooting rank 99 nukes in all magic schools killing you in 3 hits. But that never really bothered me. I mean, I don't mind dieing at all, but I do have to admit that Aventurine needs to ease to grind or find alternative ways for newer players to join in the end-game faster instead of just shooting Mana Missiles/ Eldritch Sphere/ Rend.
I was able to laugh it off for the most part, but it's a stark reminder of how far you have to go, because being able to fight those same guys that are ganking you is the whole point of the game. There is no "end game" really, there is only "the game", and the game is PVP (obviously). A newer player can't really play "the game" until at least 3 months in, and some have mentioned in this thread that 3 months is only about half way, whereas vets were able to play "the game" as soon as they logged in, or within a day or two if they didn't want to fight with their leafblade.
There's 2 ways around the problem. Either make "the game" about something besides PVP (by introducing rich PVE quests or something), which nobody is really asking for, or make "the game" playable as intended for newer players. It's very unlikely to happen, though, considering the pace at which AV makes changes (such as cracking down on macroing which should've happened on day 1 and not day 300). If it was going to happen it probably would've and should've been built into the game itself, but that would've required some forethought about what was going to happen once the majority of the playerbase becomes uber. I just don't see much forethought or even understanding of their own friggin' game by AV. I still post about it on here from time to time only because some vets don't seem to understand what the big deal is.
I saw this thread title and my immediate thought was "It's still breathing?" :P
But seriously...
Cutting down on the grind factor to make the game less ganktastic may have been a good idea.... several years ago. It would have made the game much less ganktastic.
But I think it's too late now. A change like this would be a major slap in the face to players who endured the long grind. It would devalue their efforts and seriously anger some of them.
Remember that Horizons did this? At some point they made levelling a dragon much easier and it created intense resentment amongst some players, who then turned their bitterness on the community. For a time it was really very ugly.
I can understand the arguments for cutting down the grind. I really can. I've always felt the slow character progression and the open pvp + full looting was an uncomfortable combination - that has obviously been problematic.
But this particular fix is too late.
If the goal is to make it easier for new players then there are far better options. Eg. they could create a small number of genuinely safe newbie areas, with a "magical" suppression effect in place that prohibits players from harming each other there.
Or players themselves could do it. Eg. I always liked the look of that island on the west side of the map - the one with Seelie on it. I always thought that would be the perfect spot for players to create a patrolled newbie area.
The whole point of reducing the grind is to let new players reach a "level" where they can 'compete' with others. As mentionned in my previous post, most vets macro'ed their way up (and no one can deny this fact, blood walling being the most obvious form).
DarkFall would still be gank-heavy with less grind, and it should be. Ganking is part of the game, remove it and you have a Battlefield Bad Company 2 game in a Fantasy setting, and that's not good (even though BBC2 is awesome).
As for slow progression and the open pvp + full looting, had Aventurine enforced rules from Day 1 and had better "working" systems, I don't think players would actually care that much about the slow progression. The core system has it's flaws and players make very interesting suggestions on a daily basis but I have seen very few being added into the game. When the whole community makes a HUGE list called DarkFall Community Expansion Wishlist and that most players all agree with (most of) it's content, that says something.
Darkfall is fine as it is I'm glad Aventurine doesn't give a shit about the fast paced, ez-mode crowd. You don't want to grind, you want an extra pass? Well play something else, there is enough crap outthere cause obviously DFO isn't the game.
Thanks god for a real RPG. Guess what most Darkfall players DON'T WANT you "mass players" in. You have your wow, everquest 2 we have EvE and Darkfall no need for dumbing down the Ultima Online sequel!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Are you serious right now? Do you think Adventurine is in it for love of the game or something? I bet their investors are pissed beyond comprehension.
I'm not sure I understand you here.
You want players to be able to 'compete' with others, but still want it to be 'gank-heavy'. Aren't they kind of mutually exclusive? When we talk of ganking we usually refer to stronger (skill/level wise) blicking smaller players.
I don't see that you can have that both ways.
But regardless, as per my previous post, this particular solution is just plain too late. Any attempt to devalue existing players' efforts - and reducing the long term grind does exactly that - will not only anger those players but it sets a bad precedent for potential players. If the developer is willing to devalue this, what else might they devalue in the future? What's the point of investing any effort at all?
Grind reduction is an easy fix. But implemented it now it would create other problems. Ideally of course, these issues are worked out in beta so the paying public never has to consider them. Unfortunately that didn't happen.
At this point in time there are far better solutions to this problem. Just to throw another example out there, any mechanism that helps players quickly hook up with like minded guilds who play at the same time as you would help. If you're not playing alone then your skill level relative to older players is much less of an issue.
Ganking is not restricted to a single stronger player killing a weaker player. You could gank a stronger player while he's harvesting or crafting for exemple, you could gank in a group, etc.
When I talk about players being able to "compete", it's usually for players to be able to participate in Clan War (Sieges) and Sea Towers. Since it's extremely easy for a new player to get killed in 3-4 hits , there really is nothing they can do until 2-3 months in the game.
The grind reduction has little impact in the case of DarkFall. With the June expansion, they greatly reduced the skill grind (x6 on monsters, x3 on players) and most players were happy about it. The "grind" most players are asking now is Stats grind, which requires A LOT of farming and it takes quite a while of Vitality/Strength grinding before you reach 250-300 HP, which means that you are somewhat "PvP ready" as you are able to take on a few extra hits (max HP is 450)
YEah heh, everything is fine. Are there even 1k active player's on at the sametime ever?
Who cares? Darkfall has enough players for AV and thats all that counts. Not every company is as greedy as Blizzard!
Are you serious right now? Do you think Adventurine is in it for love of the game or something? I bet their investors are pissed beyond comprehension.
*lol* they are independent which menas they don't have greedy bastards like Ricitello, Smedley or Kotick telling them to dumb down the game so that everyone can have success.Is it really that hard admitting this game isn't for you? Enjoy it or stay away from it its that simple.
Its a game about freedom if you can't deal with it go back to Wow.
The grind also has some advantages you don't have to deal with stupid ez-mode players.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Now that you talk about RPG, I remember those paper and paper game (perhaps not an accurate comparision but I went to DF because of feeling the same I felt with the tabletop RPG games) where achieving the epic level could take months, perhaps years. I remember me and my party to be wandering around just to see if the GM's dice hit an encounter a so getting xp and loot. Grinding in RPGs is a constant, it is the way it was designed by Gary Gygax.
I meant "pen and paper" oops, (I need to review my posts)
I hope the fact that they are independant somehow means they can run servers with nobody playing, because if it doesn't I know few fanboys who won't be welcome anywhere. Business is to make money.
You know... back in the beginning, and even for the next few years, Lineage 2 had this same 'problem', with new players having to go through what those who started in the beginning had to... the game was top-heavy, etc. etc. And in fact, the game for the first players was even more grueling since NC "eased it up" a bit over time.
You had higher level players ganking lower level players, haunting the newbie areas, etc. etc. New players had no chance to fight back. Some high level players would deliberately wear lowbie gear to fool a new player into thinking they were the same level range, just to bait them.
All the problems I'm seeing mentioned in threads like this one - and more - were prevalent 5+ years ago in Lineage 2 - and even still happen to this day to some degree. It isn't some situation unique to DF. It goes with the territory when you're talking about FFA PvP MMOs. Shadowbane had similar things happening as well.
Still, I don't ever recall anyone complaining about it being "unfair" though, because people who started months before them were - gasp - farther along. They'd bitch that some idiot 20 levels higher than them was ganking/greifing them... but at the same time, it went with the territory.
People didn't worry about what others were doing, or how far along others were, because they were too busy chipping away and developing their own characters. They simply played the game and, eventually, they got to those higher levels as well. And if you think DF is a grind, you should have played L2 when it was still new. Its grind was almost legendary. Most MMOs I've played since are a cake-walk compared to it.
It just seems funny to me to see the impatient, entitled "I want to get to the end faster, or I'm gonna stomp and pout" mindset being so shamelessly displayed among the so-called "hardcore" crowd. Personally, I have never understood and still don't understand the mentality at all that players who start later should be given an easier/faster ride than the first people who came before, or "it's not fair".
People like to frame it as "why should we have to go through all that grind to be competitive simply because we started later than others did?" Well, to answer that with a question... Why should your journey to the top be any easier or faster than theirs was, simply because you chose to start later than they did? Why does starting 6, 8, 12, whatever months later than others entitle you to anything more than what they got? Where, exactly, does this sense of entitlement come from?
As for having to get to end game to PvP... Says who? Is there some rule that says "you must be high level and be equal to high-end players before you can PvP"? I'm not aware of any such thing... I know I saw PvP'ing going on in the lower level areas when I was playing DF.
Frankly, it sounds to me like a convenient cover for what is really just people wanting a faster/easier ride to the top than those who came before them, making it sound like a "major problem".
-shrug-
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When you'd read official forums, most players do want higher population. Sadly the game is not ready for that.
I agree that In pursuing mass market acceptiation some MMOs were dumbed down.
But DF just needs polish, better in-game tutorial, better UI, meaningful alignment system, better character development system, easier ways for newbies to trade, better sound and graphics, more content etc. We kind of used to DF, and don't see it's shortcomings.
Besides, AV never, ever done anything to dumb down DF. So I don't think that they'll do that in the future.
Ofcourse any new feature they implement is welcome but i disagree with your "game is not ready for higher population" line.
For me the points why the masses used to other MMO cant stand a chance in DF is, time commitment and harshness of the world, the effort you need to put into prior you have a feel of having accomplished something.
But exactly that is the strength of the game, that makes it the best game on the market right now and it makes DF exceptional and unique.
Making it "ready for the masses" would make DF less of a good game in terms of being exceptional and unique. The problem is not to give too much away from the nature and identity to sacrifice to the masses. Things have to stay difficult to accomplish, You shouldn't be able to get the biggest boat prior making preparations for months as a clan, you shouldn't have full stats and all skills in 3 - 4 months time. You need to prepare yourself to gear up for battle for hours..all these things make DF unique and exceptional and fresh compared to other weak MMO.
You post about the crafter earlier in these thread illustrates the value of crafted goods for example. What would be the attraction in if all would run around in q5 enchanted uber gear. There need to be a chance for those who invest more in the game to distinquish from others.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
/SIGNED
SIGNED
SIGNED
AHMEN
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if they had done this i'd finally have something approaching my dream MMO. i'd be playing it non-stop since beta and never would have stopped and never would get anything done in my personal life. so its kind of good that its fatally flawed i guess. 8) i've only played it 3 months. DF does so many things extremely well, but several key things (including the "char progression") really throw me off of it.
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Corpus Callosum
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